Do we Brits prefer animals to children? (From The Argus)
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Do we Brits prefer animals to children?
11:46am Tuesday 7th September 2010
By Jo Chipchase - Letting off steam »
As readers of this blog may be aware, I like to visit Spain from time to time and I enjoy comparing and contrasting the state of play abroad with the situation at home in good old Blighty – particularly with regards to family values and culture. And one of my ‘pet topics’ (if you’ll pardon the pun), is the prevailing attitude towards children and animals.
Remaining in the land of beer gardens and drizzle (yes, Blighty), during a recent visit to a popular family pub in Fulking, I spotted a chalk board that stated: “dogs and children welcome”. This caught my attention: note that the canines were placed first, before the kids. Is this some sort of Freudian slip, I wondered? If the sign had read “children welcome” and then underneath “dogs welcome”, that would be preferable in my book. However, bracketing them together in that way just seems wrong. “At least the sign said ‘children welcome’ and not ‘children allowed’,” pointed out my friend, pragmatically. “Often, kids are ‘allowed’ but they’re not really ‘welcome’,” she added. “Good point”, I conceded.
I recollect another sign in a popular Hanover pub that read “children are welcome in this area if quiet and well behaved”. Hmm! How many toddlers do you know who will sit still for the duration of Sunday dinner without moving or making any noise? I would say the answer is “precisely none” – unless they’ve been fed tranquilisers instead of beef roast which would, of course, be unethical and possibly illegal. I once left a pub in Rottingdean because the manager said my two year old was “allowed if he’s quiet and doesn’t run around”. I decided that a cheap bottle of Chardonnay in my own back patio was a preferable option.
It is the concept of child movement that causes the most serious problems, it seems. Recently, my family was asked to leave a bar on St James Street because the kids were “running around”. In the past, a diner moaned in Café Rouge because my little boy was “moving”. Some men in Gatwick Airport complained that my eldest son was “moving and looking at us”. And on a recent flight from Spain to Newcastle, an angry fellow passenger complained to me: “how would you feel if a child was standing up on his seat and looking at you?” Well, perish the thought! A child looking at an adult. Sheesh.
Yes, well, I have news for people: young kids move around and they become curious and check other people out – it’s what they do. How did we Brits come to be such a nation of “seen and not heard” kiddie haters, I wonder?
In Spain, unless the ‘ninos’ actually trip waiting staff over, scream really loud or throw bread rolls at customers on the next table, nobody will even look up from their meal if members of the younger generation run around, roll on the floor, check out fellow diners, play with toys or basically act their age, as opposed to sitting quietly and unnaturally at a table while the adults enjoy their three course meal and vino.
Why is it that British people can’t find the kindness to condone kids in a café, unless they remain 100% stationery? Even when I went out with the Grandparents, who are much hotter on table manners than Mummy, fellow patrons in a Tesco café were snarling at my whole family – all three generations of it. Surprisingly, I find that elderly people are amongst the most frequent snarlers: in the past when my eldest son was a few months old, one old lady in Rottingdean tutted at me persistently when I tried to push my stroller round the Co-op to buy bread and milk.
If the young and the elderly were better integrated into family life, and welcome in the same café/bar/restaurants as the ‘male vertical volume drinkers’ (yes, that is a bona fide alcohol industry term), perhaps the incidence of binge drinking in Britain would be reduced. And perhaps we’d generally be more tolerant of the younger and older generations instead of wanting them to be not seen and not heard either.
It also strikes me that, in Britain, we’re far more sympathetic towards animals than children. While I don’t condone the placing of a poor, unsuspecting cat in a dustbin, look at the national media brouhaha caused by the lady in Coventry performing her evil act against cat-kind. I wager that the same crime wouldn’t have attracted attention in other European countries, where people aren’t so sentimental about their pets. Animals are our national obsession and children are often relegated to second place.
Once, in a Northern supermarket, I viewed the results of a charity scheme where customers were given a green token at the checkout and they had the choice of three charities upon which to bestow their token and, hence, their support. At the end of the process, the store would donate money according to which box contained the most tokens. One was for a rotary club, and it was almost empty. The other two options involved help for local children or help for local squirrels. Guess which one “won” all the tokens? Yes, it was the squirrels. I rest my case!
Recent footage on the Argus website shows a “local man” performing some sort of strange and inadvisable “fox whispering” act beside Brighton Pavilion. In the background, various small kids are shouting “I’m thirsty” and generally trying to cause a foxy distraction. Personally (if rather meanly), I think that the YouTube-originated footage would be far more amusing if Mr Fox had shown that he’s not really a “pet” by pecking the man on the nose.
Comments(117)
Anna10
says...
12:45pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Facts of Life
says...
1:34pm Tue 7 Sep 10
The 'Green' token scheme to which you allude is also run by Waitrose in Lewes and is very successful. I rest MY case.
jamus77
says...
4:15pm Tue 7 Sep 10
something we all want to share.
disneymummy
says...
5:05pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Jo Chipchase
says...
5:32pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Why should parents with children be segregated? Yes, I take my kids to the play park frequently but I certainly don't see this as being the one place we should be allowed to visit, lest we upset people who are (sic) "sick to death of children in pubs and restaurants".
Fact: Britain has a binge drinking problem. Oddly, other European countries that welcome families into the cafe/bar/restaurant/
town fiesta type setting do *not* have the same problem because the integration of children, teenagers, young adults, etc., is more effective and bars are not viewed as venues for 'MVVDs' to become plastered and anti-social.
As for generalising other people's kids into the category of "screaming brats" - that's more childish than the kids are!!
jamus77
says...
5:44pm Tue 7 Sep 10
lisy
says...
6:48pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Jo Chipchase
says...
6:52pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Yes, some areas of Spain do have issues with youth drinking but it's not endemic or culturally ingrained as it is in Britain. And most bars welcome families without harbouring any vague thoughts of segregating the older or younger members of society. I think this is a better model than what we have in Britain.
puddingandpi
says...
7:57pm Tue 7 Sep 10
jamus77
says...
8:38pm Tue 7 Sep 10
jamus77
says...
8:49pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Lady Smith
says...
10:01pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Jo Chipchase
says...
11:03pm Tue 7 Sep 10
Pardon me for not consigning both myself and the kids to a life consisting entirely of bouncy castles, jelly, play parks and, um, village fetes, instead preferring to occasionally engage my offspring in some interesting and cultural life experiences!
Sheesh! "Brits thinking inside the box" may well be my next blog entry.
anubis
says...
11:40pm Tue 7 Sep 10
In 2004, the average Vietnamese had an ecological footprint of .76 hectares; for an Ethiopian it was just .67 hectares. In a world where scarce resources are already hogged by the rich, perhaps it is difficult to justify keeping pets that take more than some people (whether in the pub or in their own homes).
Am I not justified in changing the slant of your posting, Jo? Incredibly, it seems likely that EVEN IN THE HOME, the pet is very often favoured with expensive processed food (only the best for "my moggy"!) over the crisp-fed kidlet -- whose ideal birthday party often takes place in McDonalds.
Feeding the cat and/or dog with leftovers could have an immediate effect to do something about the scandal of food waste (and the very expensive 'quality pet-foods'. There is a growing demand for 'green' products and there seems no reason why the pet-food industry shouldn't be included in the act.
Jo Chipchase
says...
12:12am Wed 8 Sep 10
Jo Chipchase
says...
12:20am Wed 8 Sep 10
jamus77
says...
7:55am Wed 8 Sep 10
brighton born and bred
says...
9:14am Wed 8 Sep 10
Lady Smith wrote:Should parents tie their babies and children to the nearest lamp-post, rather than take them into a shop then?
Expecting children to behave in predominantly adult places e.g. pubs and parents to take responsibility for that behaviour, and ensure that their offspring don't make a nuisance of themselves does not mean that the rest of us are 'child haters'. I, for one, am sick of being branded thus by over-indulgent parents who seem to think it's OK to take young children into shops, cafes, pubs and restaurants and let them run wild, and take umbrage when anyone complains. Do some self-reflection!
Also all who complain about noisy children whilst enjoying a family meal out and state that this is completely
unacceptable behaviour - How about the masses of drunken idiots falling out of the pubs and clubs, fighting, swearing and spewing their guts up outside family homes and waking children with their brawling in the early hours - because yes believe it or not, some families with children do reside in locations where there are local pubs and clubs. Is this acceptable behaviour? If it is then,
I know which one of the two evils I would prefer to tolerate.
lisy
says...
9:23am Wed 8 Sep 10
Old Ladys Gin
says...
9:28am Wed 8 Sep 10
Brilliant idea and they can leave the massive 4 wheel drive+three bedrooms and a kitchen so called pram there as well!
jamus77
says...
9:36am Wed 8 Sep 10
brighton born and bred wrote:No brighton born and bred, Lady Smith just asked why people should be expected to tolerate unruly children in places which have traditionally been viewed as the adult realm. Yes some 20 - 30 year old men can't hold their beer and behave like idiots in some parts of town on a Fri/Sat, we shouldn't have to tolerate them either. But that's a red herring. I personally don't mind seeing children in pubs during the day, it can lighten the mood, but parents shouldn't view it as an entitlement. And if a landlord requests that their child be kept quiet and under control they shouldn't take offense for pity's sake! This is all about a generation of middle-class mums and dads who can't get their head around the fact that they've had kids and their post-university life has changed. They've never had to compromise and they don't see why they should start now.
Lady Smith wrote:Should parents tie their babies and children to the nearest lamp-post, rather than take them into a shop then?
Expecting children to behave in predominantly adult places e.g. pubs and parents to take responsibility for that behaviour, and ensure that their offspring don't make a nuisance of themselves does not mean that the rest of us are 'child haters'. I, for one, am sick of being branded thus by over-indulgent parents who seem to think it's OK to take young children into shops, cafes, pubs and restaurants and let them run wild, and take umbrage when anyone complains. Do some self-reflection!
Also all who complain about noisy children whilst enjoying a family meal out and state that this is completely
unacceptable behaviour - How about the masses of drunken idiots falling out of the pubs and clubs, fighting, swearing and spewing their guts up outside family homes and waking children with their brawling in the early hours - because yes believe it or not, some families with children do reside in locations where there are local pubs and clubs. Is this acceptable behaviour? If it is then,
I know which one of the two evils I would prefer to tolerate.
Old Ladys Gin
says...
9:40am Wed 8 Sep 10
You will not see naff childrens menus and waiters will simply put an empty plate in front of young children, who then help themselves or are given proper food from the adults plates.
Trust me that if any child in Spain becomes a sufficient nuisance the parents will get one hell of a lambasting from the waiters. If they become bored and fall asleep a waiter will just prop them up with cushions and ignore them.
Many Spanish children are spoilt beyond belief and denied nothing, but they are all taught from a very early age that they are not the centre of attraction and how to act in public. It is this last lack of discipline that makes a lot of British children so obnoxious.
In a Spanish restaurant you hardly notice their presence. In a British one they are all over the place one they have consumed their own special meal in minutes.
brighton born and bred
says...
9:51am Wed 8 Sep 10
jamus77 wrote:I actually do agree with you Jamus. There are no excuses for bad parenting. I also do not think that pubs are a place for children, they get bored easily and that is why they play up.
brighton born and bred wrote:No brighton born and bred, Lady Smith just asked why people should be expected to tolerate unruly children in places which have traditionally been viewed as the adult realm. Yes some 20 - 30 year old men can't hold their beer and behave like idiots in some parts of town on a Fri/Sat, we shouldn't have to tolerate them either. But that's a red herring. I personally don't mind seeing children in pubs during the day, it can lighten the mood, but parents shouldn't view it as an entitlement. And if a landlord requests that their child be kept quiet and under control they shouldn't take offense for pity's sake! This is all about a generation of middle-class mums and dads who can't get their head around the fact that they've had kids and their post-university life has changed. They've never had to compromise and they don't see why they should start now.Lady Smith wrote: Expecting children to behave in predominantly adult places e.g. pubs and parents to take responsibility for that behaviour, and ensure that their offspring don't make a nuisance of themselves does not mean that the rest of us are 'child haters'. I, for one, am sick of being branded thus by over-indulgent parents who seem to think it's OK to take young children into shops, cafes, pubs and restaurants and let them run wild, and take umbrage when anyone complains. Do some self-reflection!Should parents tie their babies and children to the nearest lamp-post, rather than take them into a shop then? Also all who complain about noisy children whilst enjoying a family meal out and state that this is completely unacceptable behaviour - How about the masses of drunken idiots falling out of the pubs and clubs, fighting, swearing and spewing their guts up outside family homes and waking children with their brawling in the early hours - because yes believe it or not, some families with children do reside in locations where there are local pubs and clubs. Is this acceptable behaviour? If it is then, I know which one of the two evils I would prefer to tolerate.
My point was the fact that adults can be just as noisy and inconsiderate, which is worse as children are still in the process of learning what is right from wrong, where as adults should be the ones setting a good example.
Old Ladys Gin
says...
10:12am Wed 8 Sep 10
It is also a place of business and not a play area or a creche.
Parents that take their children in there, and I don't say it is wrong, should respect this.
JuliaM
says...
10:28am Wed 8 Sep 10
It's not rocket science, love!
An unrestrained child standing on a seat can become a missile in the cabin, should the pilots need to break suddenly while taxiing, or if turbulence hits in flight.
Perhaps now the laws of physics have been explained to you, you might realise why the passenger was so concerned?
Jo Chipchase
says...
10:41am Wed 8 Sep 10
By disagreeing with naysayers, I am not being "defensive": I'm simply stating my own opinion, which differs to theirs!
As for licensed premises being "for adult conversation / a place of business, etc.", this is a cultural situation (I would personally use the word "failing") in Britain. Are you *really* convinced that it's working well for our society? Do you think elderly people would feel comfortable in these environments? Should they stay at home too?
If there were more family pubs welcoming *all* generations, perhaps we really would reduce the incidence of anti-social behaviour amongst adults that we are generally so keen to castigate when it suits us!
jamus77
says...
11:02am Wed 8 Sep 10
mcnorton
says...
11:19am Wed 8 Sep 10
An earlier poster said that parents can be unaware of the disturbance their child is causing - that's true, I may have been guilty of that occasionally as your tolerance for noise increases when you have a child. I can only apologise for that, but I think most parents are aware of it most of the time.
I must admit I usually get a positive response to my son (who does a good impression of being an angel in public), people are always trying to talk to him when we are out in a cafe which is nice as you get chatting to people. He seems to be starting the terrible twos at the moment tho so no doubt that's all about to end. Fear not I will drag him away screaming if this occurs.
Shosh
says...
11:30am Wed 8 Sep 10
Thank you again for writing this piece!
mcnorton
says...
11:39am Wed 8 Sep 10
PS I also agree that the child-free have unreasonable expectations of child behaviour sometimes. I admit I was one of them...
Spanners
says...
11:42am Wed 8 Sep 10
JuliaM wrote:hilarious, hysterical, daily mail-esque bilge ! You must be a joy to be around at parties. I'm sure you'd have cordoned off the fruit punch for health and saftey reasons after the first ten minutes. I'd then expect to find you standing outside the toilet making sure everyone had properly washed their hands before eating any vol-au-vents. You want to live in fear than please crack on - just don't expect the sane to follow you on your miserable journey through life
"… on a recent flight from Spain to Newcastle, an angry fellow passenger complained to me: “how would you feel if a child was standing up on his seat and looking at you?” Well, perish the thought! A child looking at an adult. Sheesh." It's not rocket science, love! An unrestrained child standing on a seat can become a missile in the cabin, should the pilots need to break suddenly while taxiing, or if turbulence hits in flight. Perhaps now the laws of physics have been explained to you, you might realise why the passenger was so concerned?
jamus77
says...
11:44am Wed 8 Sep 10
Shosh wrote:The Tin Drum in Hove is very child friendly, but I suspect you've discovered that for yourself. I think perhaps you've hit a nail on the head there Shosh. If genuinely child friendly pubs/restaurants actively marketed themselves as such, people could make an informed decision. But ultimately pushy parents shouldn't try to change the very nature of pubs and restaurants just because they've got kids. A pub, ipso facto, is a pub, a place traditionally for adults. Why should that change, just because you want it to?
Jo I think this is a brilliant piece, and I couldn’t agree with you more. I have two young children, both under the age of 5, and its always been such hard work trying to find pubs, cafes and restaurants that actively welcome children, that will go that one step further rather than just ‘tolerate’ your children as long as they are ‘well behaved’. I don’t need to repeat what you’ve already written about expectations for how children should behave and how they actually do behave, which is completely normal. Why should parents not have a life, not be able to eat in restaurants, pubs, cafes because they have children? Children are as much part of society as adults and we don't live in Victorian times any more. On a positive note, I have found (after doing a great deal of research!) a good number of pubs, restaurants and cafes in Brighton and Hove which genuinely do welcome young children, in both their attitude, and the facilities they provide. They can't guarantee that the clientele have the same outlook but I prefer to go to these places with my two rather than venues which look at us as a nuisance.
Thank you again for writing this piece!
Spanners
says...
11:56am Wed 8 Sep 10
mcnorton wrote:Bang on the money - some places are kid friendly and some are not. Now I have a kid I have just changed the places I frequent. I dont take my boy to places where he is not welcome. And by same token I expect people who dont want to be near kids to go the places that dont have them. Flights are a matter of attitude - my worst nightmare used to be getting the screamy child next to me. These days I just feel sorry for the parent if their 1 year old is really crying. The parents dont want them to be crying anymore than you do. It is only now I appreciate just how hard it can be to stop them and how stressful it is for the parents. How do you make a one year old equalise their painful ears during takeoff, for example ? You can try feeding, dummies etc but no gaurantees. Sometimes you can try everything but it just won't stop them !
Shosh, can you advertise those? I am happy to take my child to family-friendly places now that I have one, and anyone who doesn't like to dine with kids can avoid them. PS I also agree that the child-free have unreasonable expectations of child behaviour sometimes. I admit I was one of them...
Shosh
says...
12:05pm Wed 8 Sep 10
mcnorton wrote:Hi mcnorton, yes I have got them all in one place, easily accessible, I will get back to you about that.
Shosh, can you advertise those? I am happy to take my child to family-friendly places now that I have one, and anyone who doesn't like to dine with kids can avoid them.
PS I also agree that the child-free have unreasonable expectations of child behaviour sometimes. I admit I was one of them...
And jamus77 - I disagree, its not about "pushy parents" - we are not pushy, we'd just rather go places which make it a bit easier and more comfortable to hang out with the children in tow and keep them happy too but I don't feel that pubs, restaurants, cafes etc are traditionally for adults only, and I don't feel that by us going there, we are changing the very nature of these places.
Jo Chipchase
says...
12:16pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Burgess901
says...
12:20pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Because as she says to me today, as a baby/toddler she had limited control over my moods, and if I were to cry it would disturb other patrons.
We did not go on foreign holidays until I was 6 for the same reasons (small children on planes will be a nightmare after about half an hour).
Apparently I was a very well behaved child, but still my mother made these decisions because of her respect for others.
Parents today, it is not your right to subject everyone to your child, be it making a noise or sitting in an over-sized buggy in the middle of an isle.
Unfortunately governments are on your side as we can see with the introduction of 'sing-a-long' sessions at the local library, places that were once a bastion of reading and intellect, now a vessel for clucking mothers and **** nappys.
They reward people for having children in a time when the planet is already grossly over-populated (earth carrying capacity is estimated between 2 and 5 billion).
It does seem if you choose to be childless, especially if you are female, there is something wrong with you, and on top of that the government and often self-righteous parents treat you with disdain.
Having chosen to be childless (bliss), so my views will be deemed as anti-child by parents, but I am more anti-parent, as a lot of the comments already say, it's the parenting skills that are being tutted at, not your child.
Take responsibility and accept other peoples feelings.
Shosh
says...
12:28pm Wed 8 Sep 10
mcnorton wrote:Mcnorton: Ok, so I pulled together all the information I could find on child friendly restaurants, cafes, pubs, and hotels and put them into www.childfriendlybri
Shosh, can you advertise those? I am happy to take my child to family-friendly places now that I have one, and anyone who doesn't like to dine with kids can avoid them.
PS I also agree that the child-free have unreasonable expectations of child behaviour sometimes. I admit I was one of them...
ghton.co.uk (have just checked that its ok for me to put this web address here, because one of the main reasons I set up this website was to find the genuinely child / family friendly places to take my children).
jamus77
says...
12:32pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Burgess901 wrote:Well said. What are one-year-olds doing on flights anyway? I have friends who agonised for ages about taking their baby on a flight to Thailand - 11/12 hours - simply because they wanted an exotic holiday. They said it was a 'nightmare' - I bet it was, for the other passengers! Personally, I think it was selfish - almost beyond belief - of them to even consider imposing a fretful baby on other people for that length of time. But as you say, I think we're fighting a losing battle...
Guess what, when I was a baby/toddler in the early 70's my mother would not take me to a cafe, even though she would of loved a coffee and a sit down, Why?
Because as she says to me today, as a baby/toddler she had limited control over my moods, and if I were to cry it would disturb other patrons.
We did not go on foreign holidays until I was 6 for the same reasons (small children on planes will be a nightmare after about half an hour).
Apparently I was a very well behaved child, but still my mother made these decisions because of her respect for others.
Parents today, it is not your right to subject everyone to your child, be it making a noise or sitting in an over-sized buggy in the middle of an isle.
Unfortunately governments are on your side as we can see with the introduction of 'sing-a-long' sessions at the local library, places that were once a bastion of reading and intellect, now a vessel for clucking mothers and **** nappys.
They reward people for having children in a time when the planet is already grossly over-populated (earth carrying capacity is estimated between 2 and 5 billion).
It does seem if you choose to be childless, especially if you are female, there is something wrong with you, and on top of that the government and often self-righteous parents treat you with disdain.
Having chosen to be childless (bliss), so my views will be deemed as anti-child by parents, but I am more anti-parent, as a lot of the comments already say, it's the parenting skills that are being tutted at, not your child.
Take responsibility and accept other peoples feelings.
Children encroach way too much on every aspect of life these days. You can't visit a garden without stupid 'path-finder nature trails' everywhere and big patronizing signage about ladybirds and the plant kingdom. Sing-a-long sessions at libraries - priceless! But again another example of how the very nature of venerable institutions - and yes I do include the pub in that description - are being changed to suit the demands of entitled parents.
Shosh
says...
1:12pm Wed 8 Sep 10
jamus77 wrote:These 'sing a long' sessions at the local libraries, otherwise known as Baby Boogie, actually promote, rather than discourage reading and intellect. I've taken both my children to these sessions at the libraries when they were babies, and they have actively encouraged familiarity with books, reading, being in a library environment, which all helps promote reading in small children. Surely that is a good thing? I would hate to think that the first time my child is allowed in a library is when he/she is a fully fledged responsible adult. The libraries also do story-time sessions for toddlers and these are equally fantastic. The same goes for nature trails in public gardens, which similarly encourages children to develop an interest and enthusiasm for nature from a young age. I don't think there is anything stupid or patronising about these facilities, quite the contrary!
Burgess901 wrote:Well said. What are one-year-olds doing on flights anyway? I have friends who agonised for ages about taking their baby on a flight to Thailand - 11/12 hours - simply because they wanted an exotic holiday. They said it was a 'nightmare' - I bet it was, for the other passengers! Personally, I think it was selfish - almost beyond belief - of them to even consider imposing a fretful baby on other people for that length of time. But as you say, I think we're fighting a losing battle...
Guess what, when I was a baby/toddler in the early 70's my mother would not take me to a cafe, even though she would of loved a coffee and a sit down, Why?
Because as she says to me today, as a baby/toddler she had limited control over my moods, and if I were to cry it would disturb other patrons.
We did not go on foreign holidays until I was 6 for the same reasons (small children on planes will be a nightmare after about half an hour).
Apparently I was a very well behaved child, but still my mother made these decisions because of her respect for others.
Parents today, it is not your right to subject everyone to your child, be it making a noise or sitting in an over-sized buggy in the middle of an isle.
Unfortunately governments are on your side as we can see with the introduction of 'sing-a-long' sessions at the local library, places that were once a bastion of reading and intellect, now a vessel for clucking mothers and **** nappys.
They reward people for having children in a time when the planet is already grossly over-populated (earth carrying capacity is estimated between 2 and 5 billion).
It does seem if you choose to be childless, especially if you are female, there is something wrong with you, and on top of that the government and often self-righteous parents treat you with disdain.
Having chosen to be childless (bliss), so my views will be deemed as anti-child by parents, but I am more anti-parent, as a lot of the comments already say, it's the parenting skills that are being tutted at, not your child.
Take responsibility and accept other peoples feelings.
Children encroach way too much on every aspect of life these days. You can't visit a garden without stupid 'path-finder nature trails' everywhere and big patronizing signage about ladybirds and the plant kingdom. Sing-a-long sessions at libraries - priceless! But again another example of how the very nature of venerable institutions - and yes I do include the pub in that description - are being changed to suit the demands of entitled parents.
Burgess901
says...
1:37pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Why must parents have organised events and the hard work of true parenting facilitated by others.
Unless of course the parents are so stupid that they cannot read or inform their children about basic ecology when visiting a nature reserve etc.
Once again why should I be disturbed researching and reading in a place which is supposed to be quiet?
Because children are viewed as more important, so there needs (read parents anxieties and wants) come before mine.
brighton born and bred
says...
1:44pm Wed 8 Sep 10
I agree with you Shosh, The sing along and read along sessions at libraries are a fantastic idea. Not only does it encourage our children to read more, rather than become couch potatoes sat in frount of the tv, It also encourages them to communicate and make friends.
Change is good- it is called evolution. Although it would seem that there are still many dinosaurs out there!
My Point of View
says...
2:04pm Wed 8 Sep 10
*With exception to the brighton born and bred piece above which is obviously what happens if you allow 'everyone' regardless of their.....well anyway.. the right to post regardless of their comprehension of the point in hand
Interociter
says...
2:25pm Wed 8 Sep 10
BUT - those parents should also be prepared to leave when requested if their children are irritating other people.
ALSO - sometimes the children are fine and it's the adults who are the annoying ones. I was in the Eagle on Sunday and two women were their with a child - the child was well behaved but it was the adults who were whooping and bellowing in some attempt to amuse the child. In the end, they pretty much emptied the pub.
pun master
says...
3:13pm Wed 8 Sep 10
jamus77 wrote:A pub is actually whatever the owner and his/her customers want it to be really... If there is majority demand in an area for a pub to cater for children, and this is more profitable for the owner, then it is likely that it will end up catering mostly for families; if however, the demand is from regular drinking adults, then that is likely to happen; you're all getting in a right pickle over this - find a pub that caters for your specific needs, or lobby your pub to cater for your needs, and get on with your lives, be it drinking among other adults in a pub or sitting having dinner with you kids....
Shosh wrote: Jo I think this is a brilliant piece, and I couldn’t agree with you more. I have two young children, both under the age of 5, and its always been such hard work trying to find pubs, cafes and restaurants that actively welcome children, that will go that one step further rather than just ‘tolerate’ your children as long as they are ‘well behaved’. I don’t need to repeat what you’ve already written about expectations for how children should behave and how they actually do behave, which is completely normal. Why should parents not have a life, not be able to eat in restaurants, pubs, cafes because they have children? Children are as much part of society as adults and we don't live in Victorian times any more. On a positive note, I have found (after doing a great deal of research!) a good number of pubs, restaurants and cafes in Brighton and Hove which genuinely do welcome young children, in both their attitude, and the facilities they provide. They can't guarantee that the clientele have the same outlook but I prefer to go to these places with my two rather than venues which look at us as a nuisance. Thank you again for writing this piece!The Tin Drum in Hove is very child friendly, but I suspect you've discovered that for yourself. I think perhaps you've hit a nail on the head there Shosh. If genuinely child friendly pubs/restaurants actively marketed themselves as such, people could make an informed decision. But ultimately pushy parents shouldn't try to change the very nature of pubs and restaurants just because they've got kids. A pub, ipso facto, is a pub, a place traditionally for adults. Why should that change, just because you want it to?
Old Ladys Gin
says...
3:47pm Wed 8 Sep 10
It is something which strikes instantly when I come back to this country from Spain.
They are not taught to behave at table nor in many cases how to even hold the implements correctly.
You simply do not find the level of poor behaviour in some other countries.
eg travelling from an african country on an aircraft with a lot of young children on it, mostly from that country.
The aircraft did not have any kind of entertainment system, no TVs in seatbacks etc.
Yet, you hardly noticed the children and any errant behaviour was quickly stopped by the parents and the crew.
That is what parents in the UK have to learn and until I see it then I'll adopt a very good method of avoiding the little darlings - no eye contact, ever!
ps And I'm no dragon as my little nephews and nieces love coming over and the reason is? It's predicable and they know what to expect. That is what children need.
gerryryan
says...
4:05pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Tippy Toes
says...
4:32pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
says...
5:15pm Wed 8 Sep 10
"Simples" - as that was-funny-but-is-now
-a-bit-irritating meerkat says.
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
says...
5:23pm Wed 8 Sep 10
.
Doggism. The new racism.
brighton born and bred
says...
5:26pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Tippy Toes wrote:Well said. I have two small children under five and for their age they are well behaved because they know their boundaries, I do not take them into pubs, as i do not feel that it is an appropiate place to take children, (where some people not all) may become aggressive. However I see nothing wrong with sharing a family meal in a nice restaurant and have done so, on many special family occassions.
Thanks for generalising and painting all children and parents with the same brush. I have always taken my daughter out on a regular basis. She has been eating out in restaurants/pubs since she was small. She is 9 years old now, and because eating out in restaurants has become something that isn't unusual for her, she knows how to behave. Don’t get me wrong, she’s no angel, but she knows how to behave at a dinner table, has manners, and is polite, because this had been instilled into her from an early age I think it’s a real shame about the attitude of some of the people on this site. Not all children are screaming brats, and not all parents are pushy. Nothing like stereotyping is there!!!!
My children are well behaved - and if they were not, we would remove them from the restaurant.
Not all parents allow their children to run wild and do teach them good manners and respect for others.
If a child lives with tolerance - they learn to pe patient.
Burgess901
says...
6:10pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Tippy Toes wrote:You are the parents that go un-noticed, going about bringing up your children correctly and for that I thank you.
Thanks for generalising and painting all children and parents with the same brush. I have always taken my daughter out on a regular basis. She has been eating out in restaurants/pubs since she was small. She is 9 years old now, and because eating out in restaurants has become something that isn't unusual for her, she knows how to behave. Don’t get me wrong, she’s no angel, but she knows how to behave at a dinner table, has manners, and is polite, because this had been instilled into her from an early age I think it’s a real shame about the attitude of some of the people on this site. Not all children are screaming brats, and not all parents are pushy. Nothing like stereotyping is there!!!!
You are not the type of parent others get annoyed at, and the comments are directed at.
Some parents are rubbish and some children are ill-behaved, and some people take offence too easily when criticizing general parenting skills.
Strugg Lynn
says...
9:36pm Wed 8 Sep 10
arrogant. Like the male parent seen recently on the train who thought he was a "cool dad" allowing his kids go climb all over the seats whist he himself had his feet up allowing us all a view up his shorts where obviously his brain is
kept, or the yummy mummies who let their toddlers roam a restaurant so freely that one walked into the kitchen. They were oblivious and not at all concerned. LOL. Truly unsympathetic to your blog.
kept!
Whitedot
says...
10:55pm Wed 8 Sep 10
One day when you all grow up and are brave enough and lucky enough to conceive (though in some cases it shouldn't be allowed) You'll finally have a clue.
Until then put up with the noise of children (that's what they do, regardless of parenting 'skills') or bugger off home again with your miserable four pack of lager. Ta ra! LOL
My Point of View
says...
11:34pm Wed 8 Sep 10
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit wrote:NO RACISM IN DOGGISM
One more thing - Dogs are far less welcome than children. Loads of places have signs saying 'No dogs', but very few have signs saying 'No children', so I disagree with Jo in that respect. We've just been on holiday in the New Foresty with our dogs and it was a struggle finding places to take dogs AND children.
.
Doggism. The new racism.
Not up at the Dyke it is not..they have all colours up there.... All welcome! It is an equal opportunity environment
Mr Lahey
says...
12:02am Thu 9 Sep 10
Whitedot wrote:Keep making excuses, but I'm thin and have plenty of free time / disposable income. How d'ya like them apples?
Children are central to the whole of society. It wasn't until I had one that I realised I'd finally joined the human race. It's so funny reading all the bitter opinions of the childless on here, now I'm on the other side of the fence. One day when you all grow up and are brave enough and lucky enough to conceive (though in some cases it shouldn't be allowed) You'll finally have a clue. Until then put up with the noise of children (that's what they do, regardless of parenting 'skills') or bugger off home again with your miserable four pack of lager. Ta ra! LOL
AEWorthing
says...
12:12am Thu 9 Sep 10
Old Ladys Gin
says...
8:41am Thu 9 Sep 10
In a certain large chain of childrens shop was a pram, and the cost? 1,600 quid!! I kid you not!
Once I had picked myself up from the floor and dusted myself off I notice this massive contraption had:
Disc brakes!!
More storage space than an Ocado van
and I am certain there was a fitting for sat nav!!
The last item is a joke of course but 1,600 smackers for a push chair.
I wonder how my parents manage with four young children, no car, and trapsing us all about on public transport..
Easy - two in a push chair and one slung over each shoulder - and yet we lived!
Always working
says...
8:50am Thu 9 Sep 10
As for dogs, in pubs yeh I don't mind but not in restaurants around food. If you found a hair in your meal you'd soon be complaining!
lisy
says...
9:19am Thu 9 Sep 10
Whitedot wrote:Oh deary deary me. How quickly this has degenerated to shouty texts in caps and posts such as the one above - basically waging a war of life choices. Thank you so much all you parents for blessing society with your darling offspring - and of course all bitter childless people should not be allowed to comment on your choices (even if they directly impact them) until they have children...a bit like saying one shouldn't be allowed to vote unless you have experienced personally the problems a Prime Minster faces. It scares me a little bit the concept voiced above - that a child's behavior is somehow "just what they do" and parenting skills have no impact. How awful as a parent to be such a leaf on the tide - swept along by the behavior of your children. How terrifying to be a child with no direction from a parent on how to live this life (and I firmly believe that this is the way round it should work - the parent imparting their values to the child, rather than the child being used to give the parents life a meaning it didn't have before). And I think we've actually reached the heart of the matter in this - that in our society there is no consensus of opinion as to what it is to be a "grown up" and noone wants to actually take responsibility for their actions. Started out as a fun debate though!
Children are central to the whole of society. It wasn't until I had one that I realised I'd finally joined the human race. It's so funny reading all the bitter opinions of the childless on here, now I'm on the other side of the fence.
One day when you all grow up and are brave enough and lucky enough to conceive (though in some cases it shouldn't be allowed) You'll finally have a clue.
Until then put up with the noise of children (that's what they do, regardless of parenting 'skills') or bugger off home again with your miserable four pack of lager. Ta ra! LOL
Jo Chipchase
says...
10:28am Thu 9 Sep 10
My Point of View: I will believe your rather shouty point of view re "the majority do not want kids in any licensed premises..." if you conduct a sensible survey and present actual results based on valid statistics.
Indeed, this debate has descended into a slanging match re other's choices/ideas complete with labels such as "liberal", "middle class", "yummy mummies" et al.
I agree most strongly with the people who suggest that children should be taught table manners but not be excluded from venues featuring adults.
And, as for comments re alcohol / licensed premises, it's not as if the minors are, errr, imbibing the alcohol. I have the occasional bottle of wine stashed in my house. Should I ban kids from there as well?
JRH
says...
10:29am Thu 9 Sep 10
Being a child is about exploring the world you're in, and learning to socialise. You can't learn to be an adult if all you ever see is other children. The Spanish understand this - children are not seen as an inconvenience or a subspecies - and it makes Spain a nicer place to be.
Sorry folks, but if you really can't interact with a child, and proclaim to 'hate' them in 'adult' settings, then there's definitely something wrong with you.
There do need to be places that are just for adults - but at the moment, it seems like that's most - if not all - of them. Which is ridiculous in a society where so many adults have families.
As regards our ludicrous sentimentality about animals - I don't share it. I've had several (pampered) cats, but I still think we need to get our priorities straight: People first, including the little ones.
Number Six
says...
11:46am Thu 9 Sep 10
1. They eat what they are given
2. They don't fill the house up with their dim mates
3.They don't constantly whine on about new trainers, X Box, etc etc
4.They don't drag their knuckles on the floor, grunting "wha'eva
5.If they get pregnant you canu usually sell the result.
D3xt3r
says...
12:29pm Thu 9 Sep 10
Jamus77, you're an idiot. Those Dads we're probably skateboarding when they we're younger. A lot of them probably still skate now. If that was you, wouldn't you want to share that with your kid? Should they grow up? What about Tony Hawk? Should he grow up? I used to play drums and guitar in bands when I was younger. I still do that now I'm in my 30's. Do I need to grow up too? Get some perspective.
Burgess901
says...
12:33pm Thu 9 Sep 10
Whitedot wrote:This bolsters my belief that sometimes a decent, understanding, non-judgmental person can be turned into a self rightous, indignant and patronizing person just by having a child.
Children are central to the whole of society. It wasn't until I had one that I realised I'd finally joined the human race. It's so funny reading all the bitter opinions of the childless on here, now I'm on the other side of the fence.
One day when you all grow up and are brave enough and lucky enough to conceive (though in some cases it shouldn't be allowed) You'll finally have a clue.
Until then put up with the noise of children (that's what they do, regardless of parenting 'skills') or bugger off home again with your miserable four pack of lager. Ta ra! LOL
As for the lame excuse 'Thats what kids do', a more honest sentence would be 'sorry i can not be bothered to discipline my darling children, so they do tend to do as they wish'.
Kids screaming in the park, playgroup, in your home, organised activities, village fair, kids eatery, all fine.
Why do you insist on taking them to places where YOU want to go, not the kids, and then moaning that others get upset when your little angels disturb them, because of your actions?
Maybe it is your right as a parent to be selfish and arrogant?
(for the benefit of TippieToes, not all parents are selfish and arrogant)
NotGreen
says...
1:32pm Thu 9 Sep 10
Jo Chipchase wrote:Because quote simply, restaurants and pubs will make more money rather than couples with children.
Jamus, no I don't agree. Why should single, child free adults take priority over families if the kids are, indeed, under control and not screaming / nicking sausages from the next table, etc.!
Yes, some areas of Spain do have issues with youth drinking but it's not endemic or culturally ingrained as it is in Britain. And most bars welcome families without harbouring any vague thoughts of segregating the older or younger members of society. I think this is a better model than what we have in Britain.
They will eat quicker and more than likely order more expensive produce.
My point I'd like to raise, why can't we do away with child benefits? My tax bill will be reduced dramatically if people with children did not receive state handouts.
Why should I pay for YOUR kids?
jamus77
says...
2:03pm Thu 9 Sep 10
D3xt3r wrote:"Those Dads we're probably skateboarding when they we're younger. A lot of them probably still skate now. If that was you, wouldn't you want to share that with your kid?"
If you don't like kids in the pub, then I would strongly advise you to avoid the Open House. I'm a regular there and there's always children of all ages there, specially in the late afternoon. Personally, I think it's great. It's nice to watch the kids mucking around. It's usually very busy in there, but no-one seems to mind the children at all. I would say you "hate kids in pubs" types are in the minority. The kind of people that spend their time commenting on Argus forums about how outrageous everything is. If you don't like kids in pubs, shut your big gobs and go to pubs where there aren't kids. Easy really isn't it?
Jamus77, you're an idiot. Those Dads we're probably skateboarding when they we're younger. A lot of them probably still skate now. If that was you, wouldn't you want to share that with your kid? Should they grow up? What about Tony Hawk? Should he grow up? I used to play drums and guitar in bands when I was younger. I still do that now I'm in my 30's. Do I need to grow up too? Get some perspective.
No, I would give myself a thoroughly good talking too. I would have died of embarrassment if my dad had tagged along with me and my BMX chums back in the Eighties. It didn't happen, thank God! You say you think the 'hate kids in pubs brigade is in the minority'. I strongly suspect it isn't. Twit.
Tippy Toes
says...
2:10pm Thu 9 Sep 10
NotGreen wrote:So how did you work out that people without children will order 'more expensive produce'? So people with children don't eat expensive food? I am confused. And how did you manage to get on to Child benefit??
Jo Chipchase wrote:Because quote simply, restaurants and pubs will make more money rather than couples with children.
Jamus, no I don't agree. Why should single, child free adults take priority over families if the kids are, indeed, under control and not screaming / nicking sausages from the next table, etc.!
Yes, some areas of Spain do have issues with youth drinking but it's not endemic or culturally ingrained as it is in Britain. And most bars welcome families without harbouring any vague thoughts of segregating the older or younger members of society. I think this is a better model than what we have in Britain.
They will eat quicker and more than likely order more expensive produce.
My point I'd like to raise, why can't we do away with child benefits? My tax bill will be reduced dramatically if people with children did not receive state handouts.
Why should I pay for YOUR kids?
kitegirl0
says...
2:56pm Thu 9 Sep 10
ys.
Strugg Lynn
says...
3:04pm Thu 9 Sep 10
One day when you all grow up and are brave enough and lucky enough to conceive (though in some cases it shouldn't be allowed) You'll finally have a clue."
Er, not all anti-bad behaved child posts are from "the childless"...Tut!
brighton born and bred
says...
6:37pm Thu 9 Sep 10
NotGreen wrote:I am sure you are correct, but you seem to forget my Partents, Grandparents, aunts and uncles all paid tax, which I am sure contributed towards the child benefit paid to your parents for you! Unless of course you were born befor 1948 which would either make you retired or near retirement! security word live-free
Jo Chipchase wrote: Jamus, no I don't agree. Why should single, child free adults take priority over families if the kids are, indeed, under control and not screaming / nicking sausages from the next table, etc.! Yes, some areas of Spain do have issues with youth drinking but it's not endemic or culturally ingrained as it is in Britain. And most bars welcome families without harbouring any vague thoughts of segregating the older or younger members of society. I think this is a better model than what we have in Britain.Because quote simply, restaurants and pubs will make more money rather than couples with children. They will eat quicker and more than likely order more expensive produce. My point I'd like to raise, why can't we do away with child benefits? My tax bill will be reduced dramatically if people with children did not receive state handouts. Why should I pay for YOUR kids?
Number Six
says...
7:01pm Thu 9 Sep 10
we went to our local Harvester the other day. Naturally, there were a fair few children, all perfectly well behaved except for the table which was having a party for a two year old. The children screeched non-stop, to the extent that we had to shout at each other. And what did the parents do? Bugger all. I still can't understand why a two year old wants to have his birthday party in Harvester.
Let's have children in restaurants bt all means but lets also teach them the rules of social dining.
I have to say that Jo is plain wrong when she asks when did we grow into a nation of children beinf seen and not heard. I come from the generation when that was really true. Thankfully it isn't now
Tippy Toes
says...
9:15am Fri 10 Sep 10
Number Six wrote:Totally agree!
Happily I am child-free (better for me, better for them) and generally I don't have a problem with children in restaurants, as long as everyone remembers it's a restaurant, not a playground. If you want a playground, there's always MacDonalds.
we went to our local Harvester the other day. Naturally, there were a fair few children, all perfectly well behaved except for the table which was having a party for a two year old. The children screeched non-stop, to the extent that we had to shout at each other. And what did the parents do? Bugger all. I still can't understand why a two year old wants to have his birthday party in Harvester.
Let's have children in restaurants bt all means but lets also teach them the rules of social dining.
I have to say that Jo is plain wrong when she asks when did we grow into a nation of children beinf seen and not heard. I come from the generation when that was really true. Thankfully it isn't now
My Point of View
says...
10:09am Fri 10 Sep 10
Jo, Take you children to places where running around and standing on seats are acceptable forms of behavior and.. drink a little less, it is not the end of the World if you have to forgo Wine for a while whilst you spend time playing with them. If you really want to put this blog to good use, post where and when you intend to take your tribe for a meal so as to forewarn everyone
Jo Chipchase
says...
11:09am Fri 10 Sep 10
Furthermore, I do not sit on planes guzzling vino while my children make the seats filthy, as you seem to suggest. My kids go to the play park, they go camping, they bake cakes and they watch Scooby Doo but sometimes - yes sometimes - they come along to do something with Mummy and the other adults. Generally, if they are going to stand on something that other people must use, even if it's a bouncy castle or play frame, I take their shoes off. Comprendo? :)
HLC
says...
11:49am Fri 10 Sep 10
I agree with certain aspects on both sides, however there seems to be a surge of over-parenting (or possibly under-parenting depending how you look at it) recently.
As an ex flight attendant I can tell you that in the interests of safety, small kids should categorically not climb on the seats and the countless times they fall and injure themselves on the heavy armrests, who do you think the parents blame? The airline.
I think childless people are a bit intimidated by parents: I know I am. Only last week a little girl asked if she could pet my dog and her mother screamed at her, all the while eyeballing me like I resembled a recent Crimewatch photofit. What do I take away from this: I don't want to interact with kids at all if this is how their parents might react.
Regardless of if you choose to have a child or a chipmunk, you have to be responsible for it.
My Point of View
says...
12:25pm Fri 10 Sep 10
Jo Chipchase wrote:Oh! You had to leave a Pub into which you had taken your chld, and preferred to go hom too drink than guarantee its behavior! ...and forgive me if I am mistaken, it was YOUR child on the Plane to Spain you wrote about... Standing on the Seat.. Tremendous parenting.. Ever thought that it is precisely parents like you and children like yours that have caused such a backlash on here Jo? No..I didn't think so... Bet the other kids stood open mouthed in Spain as your ran around and stood on seats... The bitter-sweet irony of it all is that you do not see it and everyone else does!.. As for ADHD I assume your friend takes that child to Pubs too..
My Point of View: you are not only very rude in your comments re ADHD but you make sweeping and rather ignorant assumptions. My friend's boy, aged six, actually does have ADHD but he is well behaved in public settings. Do you actually know anything about that condition?
Furthermore, I do not sit on planes guzzling vino while my children make the seats filthy, as you seem to suggest. My kids go to the play park, they go camping, they bake cakes and they watch Scooby Doo but sometimes - yes sometimes - they come along to do something with Mummy and the other adults. Generally, if they are going to stand on something that other people must use, even if it's a bouncy castle or play frame, I take their shoes off. Comprendo? :)
fulcrum
says...
2:07pm Fri 10 Sep 10
Mr Lahey wrote:Absolutely superb riposte - I've just doused my keyboard with a mouthful of coffee.
Whitedot wrote: Children are central to the whole of society. It wasn't until I had one that I realised I'd finally joined the human race. It's so funny reading all the bitter opinions of the childless on here, now I'm on the other side of the fence. One day when you all grow up and are brave enough and lucky enough to conceive (though in some cases it shouldn't be allowed) You'll finally have a clue. Until then put up with the noise of children (that's what they do, regardless of parenting 'skills') or bugger off home again with your miserable four pack of lager. Ta ra! LOLKeep making excuses, but I'm thin and have plenty of free time / disposable income. How d'ya like them apples?
Sir, I salute you.
BB1975
says...
2:32pm Fri 10 Sep 10
NotGreen wrote:Hmm, because none of us parents work do we? And of course people without children don't get 'handouts', do they?
Jo Chipchase wrote: Jamus, no I don't agree. Why should single, child free adults take priority over families if the kids are, indeed, under control and not screaming / nicking sausages from the next table, etc.! Yes, some areas of Spain do have issues with youth drinking but it's not endemic or culturally ingrained as it is in Britain. And most bars welcome families without harbouring any vague thoughts of segregating the older or younger members of society. I think this is a better model than what we have in Britain.Because quote simply, restaurants and pubs will make more money rather than couples with children. They will eat quicker and more than likely order more expensive produce. My point I'd like to raise, why can't we do away with child benefits? My tax bill will be reduced dramatically if people with children did not receive state handouts. Why should I pay for YOUR kids?
HLC
says...
2:42pm Fri 10 Sep 10
Whitedot wrote:Why is it assumed people who choose not to procreate haven't "arrived in the human race"?
Children are central to the whole of society. It wasn't until I had one that I realised I'd finally joined the human race. It's so funny reading all the bitter opinions of the childless on here, now I'm on the other side of the fence.
One day when you all grow up and are brave enough and lucky enough to conceive (though in some cases it shouldn't be allowed) You'll finally have a clue.
Until then put up with the noise of children (that's what they do, regardless of parenting 'skills') or bugger off home again with your miserable four pack of lager. Ta ra! LOL
I choose not to have kids because I couldn't even keep a cactus alive!
Furthermore, several people I know seemed to have vanished OFF the grid since having kids and those I do see may as well have had a full frontal lobotomy for all their remaining interest in what goes on beyond "what Jake said at the dentists the other day..."
If you finally feel validated by having had them fine, but don't assume that those of us who don't have them are in some way incomplete or lesser beings than you - or has your maturity been reduced to match those of your kids?
BB1975
says...
2:57pm Fri 10 Sep 10
lisy
says...
3:27pm Fri 10 Sep 10
tynlamzic
says...
3:27pm Fri 10 Sep 10
HLC wrote:HLC, as ex-flight-crew I expect you may have seen a more at least a few instances of Clear Air Turbulence (CAT), right?
People need to be able to agree to disagree on issues like this... I agree with certain aspects on both sides, however there seems to be a surge of over-parenting (or possibly under-parenting depending how you look at it) recently. As an ex flight attendant I can tell you that in the interests of safety, small kids should categorically not climb on the seats and the countless times they fall and injure themselves on the heavy armrests, who do you think the parents blame? The airline. I think childless people are a bit intimidated by parents: I know I am. Only last week a little girl asked if she could pet my dog and her mother screamed at her, all the while eyeballing me like I resembled a recent Crimewatch photofit. What do I take away from this: I don't want to interact with kids at all if this is how their parents might react. Regardless of if you choose to have a child or a chipmunk, you have to be responsible for it.
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Clear-air_t
urbulence
For those who don't know, CAT is one of the main reasons you'll be asked to keep your seat-belt loosely fastened at all times during flight. It's an event caused by erratically moving air masses, and can induce very abrupt altitude excursions of at least several metres in an in-flight aeroplane - and CAT's pretty much undetectable until it happens. If "several metres" doesn't sound like much, imagine the effect falling off a two- or three-metre high wall would have on you, as an adult. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to consider the potential effect on the unrestrained body of a small, fragile person... believe me, folks who let their kids stand on the seats, you would *not* have time to grab them.
Bit off-topic, but mever mind... :-)
BB1975
says...
4:37pm Fri 10 Sep 10
lisy wrote:It is not always possible to control a child's behaviour, no. Only someone who has never experienced a two year old having a tantrum would say that. Perhaps you would condone putting them in straight jackets, as this would be the only thing that would stop their 'outrageous' behaviour. Children are not adults and they do not have the same self-control and awareness as one or react to things as an adult would. This is why we differentiate between adults and children. Therefore, you cannot expect children to behave like miny adults. Would you expect a puppy to behave as an adult dog? Some of the comments on here have been outrageous and sickening. So, excuse me for being effected by downright nasty and judgemental opinions. As a parent you feel nothing but judged all the time, especially by people who don't have children and therefore have no idea what raising them actually entails. Yes, it was my choice to have a child and I don't expect sympathy or a pat on the back but give us parents a break! If it wasn't for people like me having children the human race would become extinct, remember that.
Can everyone stop being sickened and outraged for a minute! Jo asked whether Brits prefer animals to children. Well, if entrance into pubs and restaurants is a measure of this, then, Brits prefer children because believe me, dog tolerant - let alone friendly pubs - are few and far between. Although I personally would love to take my dog along to eat out I understand I cant because a) It would affect other peoples experience negatively and b) although she is well behaved within my boundaries, but others may think she is badly behaved, and also other dogs may not be well behaved if dogs were allowed. Similarly, children in these places - its surely about the behavior and affect on other peoples enjoyment, right? So if children were sitting quietly enjoying dinner and a pint - noone would object, right?So its the BEHAVIOR that people have a problem with not the childs physical presence. This behavior, (one would hope although it has been rather worryingly argued here that this is not the case) is controlled by the parents, right? So, a consensus of opinion about what is acceptable would help, right? So maybe it would be great if we could try and think about what shape that might take instead of being sickened and appalled. So frustrated with comments I need a drink, maybe I'll go to the pub...oh no its sing along with mum hour and all the pubs are full of kids, and I've got the dog in tow so they wont let me in anyway....
lisy
says...
4:52pm Fri 10 Sep 10
BB1975 wrote:I agree - you cant control the behavior all a child all the time - but you can control where you take the child cant you? And in my opinion a pub is not an appropriate place for a child because its not a fun or stimulating environment for the child (so the child doesn't benefit in any way), and the child's behavior may affect the enjoyment of others - so everyone loses. The problem - and I think is what is making people say outrageous things, is that some parents dont seem to care about others because they want and need their choice to be a parent, and how they parent, to be validated and not judged. Just as you are affected by their comments, I am affected by this attitude because it upsets me that as a society we dont seem to have respect for each other, and each others choices - whatever they may be. I try and live my life in a way that doesn't impact negatively on other people - and I wish others would too.
lisy wrote:It is not always possible to control a child's behaviour, no. Only someone who has never experienced a two year old having a tantrum would say that. Perhaps you would condone putting them in straight jackets, as this would be the only thing that would stop their 'outrageous' behaviour. Children are not adults and they do not have the same self-control and awareness as one or react to things as an adult would. This is why we differentiate between adults and children. Therefore, you cannot expect children to behave like miny adults. Would you expect a puppy to behave as an adult dog? Some of the comments on here have been outrageous and sickening. So, excuse me for being effected by downright nasty and judgemental opinions. As a parent you feel nothing but judged all the time, especially by people who don't have children and therefore have no idea what raising them actually entails. Yes, it was my choice to have a child and I don't expect sympathy or a pat on the back but give us parents a break! If it wasn't for people like me having children the human race would become extinct, remember that.
Can everyone stop being sickened and outraged for a minute! Jo asked whether Brits prefer animals to children. Well, if entrance into pubs and restaurants is a measure of this, then, Brits prefer children because believe me, dog tolerant - let alone friendly pubs - are few and far between. Although I personally would love to take my dog along to eat out I understand I cant because a) It would affect other peoples experience negatively and b) although she is well behaved within my boundaries, but others may think she is badly behaved, and also other dogs may not be well behaved if dogs were allowed. Similarly, children in these places - its surely about the behavior and affect on other peoples enjoyment, right? So if children were sitting quietly enjoying dinner and a pint - noone would object, right?So its the BEHAVIOR that people have a problem with not the childs physical presence. This behavior, (one would hope although it has been rather worryingly argued here that this is not the case) is controlled by the parents, right? So, a consensus of opinion about what is acceptable would help, right? So maybe it would be great if we could try and think about what shape that might take instead of being sickened and appalled. So frustrated with comments I need a drink, maybe I'll go to the pub...oh no its sing along with mum hour and all the pubs are full of kids, and I've got the dog in tow so they wont let me in anyway....
Number Six
says...
6:30pm Fri 10 Sep 10
Then again, I've often thought, in some cases, all sense of reason gets lost with the placenta
tynlamzic
says...
11:00pm Fri 10 Sep 10
I'm not anti-children. I think that most of us without children do comprehend that children can be very hard work. But let me be very clear here: this is not actually about the behaviour of the children, it's about the behaviour of the adults responsible for the children.
Having a child does not entitle one to special privileges concerning what one can and cannot do in society: fundamental respect for others must still apply, regardless of how difficult looking after the child is, or how frazzled you are: your child was *your* choice, not that of others. If your children behave badly in a given situation to the detriment of others, it is simply unacceptable - and, I would contend, disrespectful to others - to throw up your hands and say "Well, that's just how children are", when YOU have put the child into that situation. Do something about it.
Children WILL behave in ways that would be unacceptable behaviour in adults - as has been pointedly stressed, they still are in the process of learning how to behave in social situations. So it's the responsibility of the adults supervising those children to be aware of the impact such behaviour has on the people around them. And in instances where a child is behaving in a way that is impacting negatively on those around them, and where the behaviour of that child cannot be controlled (and I'm aware that sometimes it can't), the child should be removed from the situation. If that means you have to leave the restaurant, pub, cinema, whatever, and curtail your enjoyment, that's unfortunate, but that's what you have to do. Anything else is breaking the social contract.
whitegrape
says...
2:19am Sat 11 Sep 10
Congratulations. By analyzing the comments I can confirm that you have proved your theory: yes, they hate children. And those who have children only like their own.
But they don't hate only children. They hate their neighbours, elder people or anyone who can't behave like them.
Perhaps that is the why so many people in this country die on their own and their rotting bodies are discovered only months later...
Oh c'mon, what do these people who say that they go out and don't want to see or hear this or that think? It gives me the right of saying: right, I am pretty and when I go out I just want to see pretty smart people. Said that many of you here wouldn't be aloud anywhere. It's known that uggly, boring, moaning, unattractive people reproduce less, in other words, the old childless bunch...
Also someone wrote: having children was your option. So it was your mother's option, that is the why you are here and we have to tolerate you. Should we give a hard time to your mother?
whitegrape
says...
2:30am Sat 11 Sep 10
Once I witnessed a cyclist trying to run over a kid crossing the street. It is sooo easy to be brave when someone is smaller or weaker than you.
I want to witness someone being that brave with my 6ft jiu jitsu high belt brother when he is being loud or having a tantrum...
Number Six
says...
11:58am Sat 11 Sep 10
whitegrape wrote:Sorry but what's this got to do with children v animals and why on earth would someone who is six foot be having a tantrum?
I have to tolerate rude, smelly, uggly, grease, drunk, freaky people everyday, morning, evening or afternoon. Once I witnessed a cyclist trying to run over a kid crossing the street. It is sooo easy to be brave when someone is smaller or weaker than you. I want to witness someone being that brave with my 6ft jiu jitsu high belt brother when he is being loud or having a tantrum...
Burgess901
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12:04pm Sat 11 Sep 10
whitegrape wrote:Actually studies have shown that intelligent, degree educated people are choosing not to procreate more than others, and from what I see waddling around, fat, ugly and scruffy individuals seem to always have a huge litter of kids.
Dear Jo,
Congratulations. By analyzing the comments I can confirm that you have proved your theory: yes, they hate children. And those who have children only like their own.
But they don't hate only children. They hate their neighbours, elder people or anyone who can't behave like them.
Perhaps that is the why so many people in this country die on their own and their rotting bodies are discovered only months later...
Oh c'mon, what do these people who say that they go out and don't want to see or hear this or that think? It gives me the right of saying: right, I am pretty and when I go out I just want to see pretty smart people. Said that many of you here wouldn't be aloud anywhere. It's known that uggly, boring, moaning, unattractive people reproduce less, in other words, the old childless bunch...
Also someone wrote: having children was your option. So it was your mother's option, that is the why you are here and we have to tolerate you. Should we give a hard time to your mother?
BB1975: Typical parents comments,
Only a person who has never experienced a two year old etc etc.
Children are not mini adults (yet in a previous post you refer to them as innocent little people) They are children!!
The argument about people living longer....over population is happening so either compulsory euthanasia for the elderly or reduce the amount of births, which is more palatable for you?
If it wasn't for people having children the human race would be extinct...yes but if they grow up to be selfish, inconsiderate, empathetical people, the human race may as well be.
And these are the people that will look after us in our old age......you are joking aren't you, most of them can not look after themselves let alone others.
I understand you make your world pleasant because you have children, but the reality is very different, and their future looks bleak.
stan bailey
says...
12:08pm Sat 11 Sep 10
lisy wrote:Totally agree, is she making excuses for her own children being badly behaved?
To clarify my earlier post - I blame the parents entirely for the children not having proper boundaries or knowing how to behave in a primarily adult setting. This is very different from Spain yes - where families do often visit restaurants to socialise and then do just that - socialise with all family members, instructing the children by example as to why this kind of interaction is pleasurable. Not, as I see all too often in our country, the adults socialising over a drink completly ignoring the children - who desperately try and get some fun out of the situation/some attention by behaving badly. I think in other European countries there is a better consensus of opinion as to what constitutes appropriate behaviour in a restaurant/bar - and this doesnt include standing on chairs or running around. Only too often do you see, in pub gardens especially, children who might as well be on their own for all the adult attention they are recieving. Its about poor parenting and our societies general lack of a concensus on good manners. On the point of the English love for their pets, well, I have a dog and would love to take her into a restaurant. I may even wish to feed her tit bits and look on with an idulgent smile if she barked or tried to steel sausages from another table. How cute! However, I understand that others dont want this and that it is my choice to have a dog - and that I cant do certain things with her in tow. This is because I respect other peoples choices, all be they different from my own - why not give that a try.
emsr2d2
says...
1:07pm Sat 11 Sep 10
I entirely echo other posters' comments that pubs and such places are generally intended for adults and really aren't suitable places for kids, full stop.
Once you have kids, you just have to realise that life as you knew it is over. If you want to go to the pub for the evening, get a babysitter.
If you want to go out for a Sunday roast and you have brought up your child to be able to sit quietly at a table for two hours, great. If you've chosen not to bring up your child that way, please don't come and ruin it for other people.
When my family first came to Brighton, I was three years old. Once a week, we went out for an Indian meal at a local restaurant. We were there about an hour and a half on each occasion and I was fully expected to sit and eat my food, I was not allowed down from the table, no toys or books were taken to keep me "entertained", I simply knew how to behave well. Mind you, I also knew that if I had started to run around, annoy other diners or had some kind of tantrum, I'd have got a good whalloping. Another thing that is now sadly out of fashion.
As far as the original question goes, yes, I absolutely prefer animals to children. For SO many reasons!
As an aside, the author of the story and a couple of other posters might like to look up the difference between "stationery" and "stationary".
Mr Lahey
says...
2:13pm Sat 11 Sep 10
puddingandpi wrote:Yeah right on.
Animals are miles better than kids. if all else fails, you can have them killed. People tend to get a bit uppity if you do that with kids.
I'm not adding more petrol to the paedophile bonfire!
whitegrape
says...
2:33pm Sat 11 Sep 10
Really? Can you send the link for these statistics? Is it scientific or only another tendentious research? It is probably an European research, around the "cold countries". Another question, is it about childless people or people who have 1 or 2 kids, which is completely different. I want to have a look in the research methods and the source's background.
I am clearly not talking about having 10 thousand kids out of control and not educating them. I am talking about intolerante people who can't bear being around ANYONE who are not like them, they are the selfish ones.
And you must be clueless if not ignorant to assume that every child who had a tantrum will grow up a selfish adult as a rule and you will end up in a wheel chair pushed by someone who doesn't care. Shaping their behaviour is part of growing up and learning. At some point they will throw tantrums and the parents' role is to show the little ones the right behaviour. And no one needs to be Mr Genius to realize that they won't learn in the first go. So yes, you will see the same 2 or 3 years olds having tantrums more than once. When this happens, mind your own business. If you were having an argument in public with your partner, for example, and someone stop to say something what would you do?
Then you see someone you haven't seen before, their child throw a tantrum and you assume they are terrible parents because of it? Or they should smack their children in the head? Shout at them? What should they do at that point, tell me? They are in public. If something goes wrong when you are in a restaurant what do you do? Punish yourself in front of everyone?
@Numer six
Well, if you didn't understand the analogy I can't teach you how to think, can I?
Sorry, but what pet behaviour has to do with human's in the first place?
I am talking about tolerance. There are different people everywhere and it is impossible to please everyone.
And do you live in a bubble? Adults have tantrums all the time. Have a walk in town center, around the pubs, after a football match or Friday/Saturday night.
Ps: I am not against ugly or fat people having children. It was a ANALOGY.
@emsr2d2
I agree children shouldn't be in pubs/alcohol related places in the evenings. But when I have my children I WILL INDEED take them to the pub for a roast dinner. I will educate them but if something goes wrong and they are not quiet for some reason, well that is life. What are you going to do? Have a tantrum? Smack me? I will ignore any comments and if the pub allows I WILL TAKE MY CHILDREN there.
mcnorton
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2:48pm Sat 11 Sep 10
Number Six
says...
3:44pm Sat 11 Sep 10
whitegrape wrote:You do seem to be fighting a lot of people at once, don't you? I wonder why.
@Burgess901 Really? Can you send the link for these statistics? Is it scientific or only another tendentious research? It is probably an European research, around the "cold countries". Another question, is it about childless people or people who have 1 or 2 kids, which is completely different. I want to have a look in the research methods and the source's background. I am clearly not talking about having 10 thousand kids out of control and not educating them. I am talking about intolerante people who can't bear being around ANYONE who are not like them, they are the selfish ones. And you must be clueless if not ignorant to assume that every child who had a tantrum will grow up a selfish adult as a rule and you will end up in a wheel chair pushed by someone who doesn't care. Shaping their behaviour is part of growing up and learning. At some point they will throw tantrums and the parents' role is to show the little ones the right behaviour. And no one needs to be Mr Genius to realize that they won't learn in the first go. So yes, you will see the same 2 or 3 years olds having tantrums more than once. When this happens, mind your own business. If you were having an argument in public with your partner, for example, and someone stop to say something what would you do? Then you see someone you haven't seen before, their child throw a tantrum and you assume they are terrible parents because of it? Or they should smack their children in the head? Shout at them? What should they do at that point, tell me? They are in public. If something goes wrong when you are in a restaurant what do you do? Punish yourself in front of everyone? @Numer six Well, if you didn't understand the analogy I can't teach you how to think, can I? Sorry, but what pet behaviour has to do with human's in the first place? I am talking about tolerance. There are different people everywhere and it is impossible to please everyone. And do you live in a bubble? Adults have tantrums all the time. Have a walk in town center, around the pubs, after a football match or Friday/Saturday night. Ps: I am not against ugly or fat people having children. It was a ANALOGY. @emsr2d2 I agree children shouldn't be in pubs/alcohol related places in the evenings. But when I have my children I WILL INDEED take them to the pub for a roast dinner. I will educate them but if something goes wrong and they are not quiet for some reason, well that is life. What are you going to do? Have a tantrum? Smack me? I will ignore any comments and if the pub allows I WILL TAKE MY CHILDREN there.
I agree that you can't tell me how to think. That day will never dawn.
It's your last sentence that shows just whatt a selfish, self-centred person you are. In effect, I'm going to do just what I want and screw everyone else. Howabout if your kiddeez misbehave and I throw them out. Well, that is life!
whitegrape
says...
4:22pm Sat 11 Sep 10
Thanks: you have just proved how judgemental you are.
You don't know me personally (thanks goodness) and you haven't got a clue if I am selfish or not. You don't know what sort of work I do, where I have been, my background etc.
And actually for you it doesn't matter if I am dedicated, a good citizen overall because if one day I go to the restaurant and a child throws a tantrum that I can't control (because it happens without notice) then people like you throw a tantrum at me without a CLUE of what is happening. I actually think it is a bit mental... if the scenario is not perfect (at your standards) than you will freak out and say that everyone is selfish because things are not happening the way you want.
You really don't understand the point, do you? It is always going to be a fight of interests: you think parents should be locked up at home because you can't hear anything louder than yourself and parents will get more and more defensive... I guess everybody is happy being miserable to each other.
Number Six
says...
5:47pm Sat 11 Sep 10
I know that you are selfish because you told me. Your last post proves that.
I neither know, nor care, what work you do nor what your background is. I haven't referred to it because it's a complete irrelevance, and my tantrum throwing days are decades past
I've said before that I'm all for children in restaurants but parents are responsible for teaching them the rules of social behaviour, not just say that's life.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I must get ready to go out for dinner.
whitegrape
says...
6:44pm Sat 11 Sep 10
Yes, I more than agree that parents are responsible for their children (which is common sense). But what I want to highlight is that small kids can have tantrums out of the blue and it will happen sometimes. And British people have indeed little tolerance towards small children. They can't talk, they can't move much... people feel uncomfortable...
whitegrape
says...
6:52pm Sat 11 Sep 10
Wait, I just missed this bit you said:
"Howabout if your kiddeez misbehave and I throw them out. Well, that is life!"
That is not life, that is a crime and if I can't defend myself I will call the police and you will be thrown in jail.
And to be honest it is not likely to happen, the internet is full of brave people like you, but real world, I guess you would think one hundred times before you touch someone's kid, specially if their father is bigger than you.
It is easy to be violent against children and women isnt it? What a "stellar human being"...
My Point of View
says...
9:25pm Sat 11 Sep 10
whitegrape wrote:It is easier to hide behind a BIG partner! If people like you and Jo Chippan were more responsible we would not have this as the most remarked about and passionate posting ever. No children under 14 in licensed premises.. You need the wine as much as Jo "I keep the odd bottle secreted about my house' and 'Left to drink another bottle elsehwere' Chipchaser seek HELP and do not spoil the lives of those responsible enough to keep out children off the seats and out of pubs till they are 14.
@ Number Zero, oh I mean, Six
Wait, I just missed this bit you said:
"Howabout if your kiddeez misbehave and I throw them out. Well, that is life!"
That is not life, that is a crime and if I can't defend myself I will call the police and you will be thrown in jail.
And to be honest it is not likely to happen, the internet is full of brave people like you, but real world, I guess you would think one hundred times before you touch someone's kid, specially if their father is bigger than you.
It is easy to be violent against children and women isnt it? What a "stellar human being"...
OH! BTW.. My husband has thrown Women..Children and their Husbands out of out Establishment for years..it is not illegal you berk, it is the LAW!
Middle class pathetic excuses.. you never see the problem..YOU are the problem.. bet you voted for Lucas and the Whores Husband too..
OK
Enough
You now know the truth..the public despise all of your kids and you for bringing them into out adult lives..
Too posh to push> PUSH OFF!
Burgess901
says...
9:27am Sun 12 Sep 10
I will try to find the paper written re:UK birth patterns today, but I have a feeling it is accessible through Cambridge Journals and you will have to pay. Bit obvious though as a lot of intelligent people choose careers over kids, and if you assess climate change, over-population, food and energy shortages, shifting of world power, the slow death of capitalism and a whole raft of other depressing events, would you really bring a new life into this? (you don't need to answer as you already have)
It appears you are missing the point as well, I understand about children growing up, tantrums, crying etc. but it is never the children's choice to go the pub, it's yours, you take them to a place where their tantrums can and do disturb others, but you feel this is acceptable.
Your comment 'if something goes wrong and they are not quiet, what are you going to do, that's life.
Yes YOUR life, so you are fine with a screaming child but others are not, why can you not get this into your head.
If your child starts throwing a wobbler, remove them from the premises, discipline them or both. Maybe you just sit there, finishing your meal oblivious to the screaming, whilst others have to endure it.
If that is the way you behave, then I am afraid you are LETTING your children grow up rather than the hard way of BRINGING them up.
You said 'to mind your own business if a child is throwing a tantrum, it has nothing to do with you', and I do if it is in town or in the park, but when it directly impacts on my enjoyment (eg: having a meal) I will not, just the same as if someone came and lit a fag next to me, I see no difference, and your statement shows absolutely no understanding for others preferences, I am sorry but you come across very arrogant.
Number Six
says...
11:11am Sun 12 Sep 10
Whitegrape, of course I wouldn't harm yours' or anyone elses children. I had assumed that you would understand that I was being facetious in order to make a point. Apologies for the error.
I'll try and make my point simpler.
I come from the days when children weren't allowed in pubs but were left outside with a bottle of lemonade and a bag of crisps. Restaurants? My father to me to D'Arcy's in the Lanes when i was about eight, just before he buggered off for ever, and that was it.
I do not want to return to those times so my part of the bargain is that I want to see children inrestaurants. Your part of the bargain is to excercise parental control and teach them the rules of social dining. It is simply not acceptable to say that children throw tantrums. You have to teach them differntly and change their behaviour. All parents can do this. After all, your children used to empty their bowels into their nappies and used successfully changed there behaviour there, didn't you?
My Point of View
says...
1:58pm Sun 12 Sep 10
Number Six wrote:You are wasting your time trying to reason with her, she is not much of a parent from the sound of it and exactly why so many people here are sick or her/their type, and her/their type of kids. She cannot see any fault in her selfish behavior nor in her unruly kids. She does not even get the irony of it.. we live in these times BECAUSE of children with upbringings like hers. This thread could run to thousands and she will still be allowing her tantrum throwing kids to stand on seats, run around and do as they please to the detriment of everyone around her.
Eloquently put Burgess 901, if I may say so.
Whitegrape, of course I wouldn't harm yours' or anyone elses children. I had assumed that you would understand that I was being facetious in order to make a point. Apologies for the error.
I'll try and make my point simpler.
I come from the days when children weren't allowed in pubs but were left outside with a bottle of lemonade and a bag of crisps. Restaurants? My father to me to D'Arcy's in the Lanes when i was about eight, just before he buggered off for ever, and that was it.
I do not want to return to those times so my part of the bargain is that I want to see children inrestaurants. Your part of the bargain is to excercise parental control and teach them the rules of social dining. It is simply not acceptable to say that children throw tantrums. You have to teach them differntly and change their behaviour. All parents can do this. After all, your children used to empty their bowels into their nappies and used successfully changed there behaviour there, didn't you?
AmboGuy
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8:18pm Sun 12 Sep 10
rubymurray34
says...
8:27pm Sun 12 Sep 10
hybridanglo
says...
10:15am Mon 13 Sep 10
I've seen a parent use a dining table to change their child's filthy nappy, four feet or so from a neighbouring table of diners, before cramming said nappy into a pint pot and waving it at a passing waitress to dispose of it.
I've witnessed a parent direct her child to urinate in a plant pot, rather than interrupt her conversation and take the child to the toilet.
And I've seen two children go running through a recently refurbished bar, jumping all over newly installed leather sofas, before running into a waitress, sending roughly €25 of drinks crashing to the floor, with the accompanying smashed glasses.
When these children were returned to their parents, who were sitting outside and apparently unconcerned about the ruckus, the parents then became abusive and aggressive because one of their little darlings had a slight nick on their leg from the broken glass they had caused.
Equally, I've seen lots of children in the bars and restaurants I've managed - both here and in Spain - who were well behaved and a credit to their parents.
But it's the bad behaviour that stands out. That's human nature. We apply the same criteria to customer service - telling up to 10 times as many people about bad customer service as we do good examples.
Unfortunately for parents of the well behaved, it's the bad examples of children in pubs and restaurants that those who do not want them there will remember most clearly.
Burgess901
says...
11:35am Mon 13 Sep 10
RubyMurray34: Exactly the the attitude a parent should have, if only those bad/lazy parents followed your ideals with regards to installing manners, politeness and good behavior then these 108 frustrated comments wouldn't be here.
Ballroom Blitz
says...
3:33pm Mon 13 Sep 10
However the behaviour of 99% of all french children is exemplary. They DO NOT run around the restaurant, make too much noise, etc, etc. And if it even seems like they might misbehave or annoy other diners, it just takes a look or a sharp word from the parent to dissuade them. They DO NOT cut the children some slack. They are taught that mealtimes are adult times as well, and they are expected to behave and have some manners.
They are brought up at home with the discipline of eating family meals around the table - not with chicken nuggets and chips perched on their laps watching tv.
The other big difference is that on big occasions, like Bastille Day, the kids are included in everything - including staying up till the wee small hours with the adults. No need for babysitters, as they are all enjoying the day and the evening as a family.
We all know that in the UK at a similar event a lot of parents would think of it as being a nuisance to bring the kids along.
After 3 months in France I can only say that in the UK we have totally lost the plot with how we discipline and bring up our kids. Luckily they haven't in France.
What I have written here is a general observation written from my own perspective. Of course not all British kids are badly behaved - but one sees enough of them that are, to know that it's a major problem.
Number Six
says...
4:28pm Mon 13 Sep 10
Now, some of that might seem a little bizarre today - I can't remember how often I was told off for putting my elbows on the table - but at least our parents taught us how to behave at mealtimes
emsr2d2
says...
10:15pm Mon 13 Sep 10
1) Tantrums etc are natural with toddlers.
2) Pubs and bars and some restaurants are not ideal places for children.
3) Some people think it's fine for parents to take children to inappropriate places, no matter how they behave.
4) Some people think it's fine to take them to those places, but only if they behave perfectly.
Surely, the ideal lies somewhere between the last two. I don't have a problem with kids in pubs and bars if they don't spoil the enjoyment of others. That is not restricted to kids. I don't want a bunch of drunken, noisy adults shouting and stumbling around ruining my enjoyment either.
The difference is that, sadly, there is no-one in attendance to stop the drunken louts (unless they're being so vile they're thrown out). However, like it or not, up until a certain age, parents are directly responsible for the behaviour of their children. It is not the tantrum I usually have a problem with, it's the parents who sit back and allow it to continue unabated, ignoring the kid completely and seemingly not caring what effect it might be having on others. These seem to be the same kind of people who believe that their children should not be disciplined at school and that total strangers should not be allowed to have words with the kids regardless of how obnoxious or even dangerous the kids' behaviour might be.
It's easy to avoid having other people snarl, tut etc at your children. Be more aware. Of your kids. Of other people. When the tantrum starts, remove the child from the situation. If they're running around and annoying people, pick them up, put them back in their seat and tell them that it's unacceptable. If they really can't obey you, or you can't control them, take them home. I don't see why that is difficult or controversial.
Jo Chipchase
says...
11:02pm Mon 13 Sep 10
BB1975 - good points. We must remember that children are little people in their own right and we cannot control them 100% of the time (much as we might like to do so) without the use of, ahem, straight jackets.
Whitegrape - amusing comments. Good to have some lightheartedness in the midst of the madness.
emsr2d2 - good summary.
My Point of View - this isn't the place for a "class war". If, at any time, you would like to meet my "middle class, ADHD" family over a dandelion and burdock and see if you would actually voice the same opinions when facing 'real people', do let me know!
Burgess901
says...
11:33am Tue 14 Sep 10
If you had installed discipline from an early age you may not find it so hard to control your kids now. As other posts state, when I was young I knew that in public I behaved, and at mealtimes I was taught manners (aaah, elbows off table son, eat with your mouth closed my father used to repeat), and it worked.
I think it is obvious that something has gone awry with parenting in the UK, when reading posts about French and Spanish children.
It's all fine though, as some parents are the ones who will have the disappointment in their old age, when they find their kids can't be bothered to visit or care for them, because they have not been taught a sense of duty or responsibility, let alone manners and etiquette.
My Point of View
says...
11:28am Wed 15 Sep 10
Jo Chipchase wrote:Dear Jo,
Well, I've returned from a camping weekend with my kids (without any carafes of Chardonnay or ASBOs, My Point of View!) to find some interesting comments on here.
BB1975 - good points. We must remember that children are little people in their own right and we cannot control them 100% of the time (much as we might like to do so) without the use of, ahem, straight jackets.
Whitegrape - amusing comments. Good to have some lightheartedness in the midst of the madness.
emsr2d2 - good summary.
My Point of View - this isn't the place for a "class war". If, at any time, you would like to meet my "middle class, ADHD" family over a dandelion and burdock and see if you would actually voice the same opinions when facing 'real people', do let me know!
God forbid I would want to actually meet you! You would want to bring the 'Little People' with you and that the meeting would take place in a Licensed premises. In addition, you have not taken on board one single comment from the 170+ above (You biggest to date)
The Posts above clearly show..Everyone despairs at trying to reason with you.. You are the 'Party at table 5' that everyone despairs of, the 'Family' in front on any Cheap Flight to the Sun, and the reason Beer Gardens were invented.
PLEASE.. (BIG LETTER SO YOU CAN SEE THEM CLEARLY)
*READ THE COMMENTS ABOVE! ALL OF THEM! AND TAKE HEED. THEY ARE FROM REAL PEOPLE JO! IN THE REAL WORLD! WITH PARENTING SKILLS... LISTEN AND LEARN
*STOP TAKING THE 'LITTLE PEOPLE' INTO PUBS AND RESTAURANTS.
*STOP REFERRING TO YOUR CHILDREN AS LITTLE PEOPLE THEY ARE NOT MIDGETS THEY ARE CHILDREN!
As for voicing my opinions... Dear Jo, I can promise you this, should you ever venture South of Newcastle and North of Spain and I see you with your 'Little people' in any Bar, Pub or Restaurant I am frequenting, behaving as they obviously do, I shall voice my opinion to You, the Licensee and everyone near me.. As I do to others of your ilk regularly and have you and the Dwarves ejected.
Continue drinking your Cheap Chardonnay at home Jo, until the 'Little People' are old enough to know the difference between their behaviour and upbringing and that of everyone else's.....
In the meantime.. Baby steps ..Try keeping them from standing on the Seats.. Especially on Aeroplanes it is dangerous and not... good practice.
My Point of View
says...
3:29pm Wed 15 Sep 10
It beggars belief you still think you are correct. Still, it is a free Country.. I just hope Social Services do not get involved.....
Last point.. CLASS WAR LMFAO! CLASS!!! These conversation usually takes place with residents of Housing Projects and crack den attendees.
www.parentinguk.org Give it ago.. You are swimming against the tide..
dunderheads
says...
10:00am Tue 21 Sep 10
My Point of View wrote:ROTFLMFAO!
Please do not respond. it is now abundantly clear to everyone that has posted that your views are intransigent and that, as typified by your attitude and that of your 'Little People' Nothing is going to stop you doing what you please where and when you please. An attitude which will, no doubt, be transferred to your 'Standing on seats, unruly children'
It beggars belief you still think you are correct. Still, it is a free Country.. I just hope Social Services do not get involved.....
Last point.. CLASS WAR LMFAO! CLASS!!! These conversation usually takes place with residents of Housing Projects and crack den attendees.
www.parentinguk.org Give it ago.. You are swimming against the tide..
Excellent post hahaha! Waste of breath lookng at the previous responses from the blogger! Nightmare Super Selfish 'Mumsy' with a Chardonnay addiction methinks! haha Loved this and all the previous!
Family favoured over feathered or furry friends?
lisy says...
12:33pm Tue 7 Sep 10