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Council's graffiti artists vandalise park

1:44pm Tuesday 22nd January 2008

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When town hall bosses unleashed graffiti artists to redecorate their park they may have been hoping for a Banksy-style mural on the cheap.

What they ended up with fell somewhat short - a vandalised playground and a clean-up bill expected to run easily into five figures.

Brighton and Hove City Council opened up Tarner Park in Brighton, to a group of spray-can Cezannes in the hope of creating an artistic masterpiece.

But council officials have admitted the artists "didn't play ball" and not only the park, but surrounded trees, hedges and streets were daubed in ugly graffiti.

Now - a whole 18 months later - the council has decided to spare the community more woe and has insisted enough is enough.

A spokeswomman for the council said: "We met us with the artists a year and a half ago and agreed to make the park a tolerated zone where they could express themselves.

"But within months, word got around and people were coming from other counties to spray the park. Drafts of people were coming by train with rucksacks full of spray paint.

"Soon it wasn't just the park that was covered but a whole trail along the streets, walls and hedges leading to the park.

"They covered the children's play facilities in paint so parents didn't want to let their kids go on them." When asked quite what the council's expectations had been at the start of the project, the authority pointed to the other "managed" graffiti areas in Kensington Street and at the New England Development by Brighton train station.

The spokeswoman said: "We quickly realised the difference between looking at designs, talking them through with artists and organising particular days for them to be painted with saying anything goes, we'll leave you to your own devices'."

The council is now facing an estimated bill of £14,000 to have the graffiti cleaned off.

The council says the clean-up will take about a month. David Roberts, managing director of M and D Ltd, one of London's biggest graffiti removal companies said: "It's a huge job. It will require high-tech equipment and I would give an estimated quote of £14,000 or more."

Tory councillor Geoffrey Theobald said: "The council is committed to taking a stand against all form of criminal damage."

The council now faces the problem of spreading the word that graffiti is no longer tolerated in the park.

The park still appears on websites like ifimages.com and YouTube as a place "where graffiti is allowed".

The authority said: "It looks like we will have to get a police patrol. Fortunately there is a police station nearby."

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Your Say YourArgus

Lord Tilford, of Tilford says...
2:04pm Tue 22 Jan 08

"a group of spray-can Cezannes in the hope of creating an artistic masterpiece" - naive or wot? Has anyone ever seen any graffiti that was better than mediocre?

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JOHNBOY, brighton says...
2:12pm Tue 22 Jan 08

14,000! What bonking mad councillors were behind this mess. NAME THEM. More of our money slung down the drain. Who in there right mind, would give a bunch of "artists" come yobs permission to PAINT one of our parks? As usual, when something goes pear shaped,its a council "spokesperson Nobody takes the blame, nobody gets the sack, and we lose 14000 pounds. What a Council!

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Lewis RD Shop Proprietor, Lewes Rd says...
2:13pm Tue 22 Jan 08

I love the Big lemon bus stop Bin Bag signs, now thats Brighton Art!

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Calling All Brightonians, here says...
2:16pm Tue 22 Jan 08

surley we now have to get rid of this inept Local authority, I mean enoughs enough.

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ac, b& says...
2:21pm Tue 22 Jan 08

That shows how young people are eager to express their artist skills. Perhaps should be more empty walls available if that it's what young people want.
Lord T; the ones on the occupied territories wall in Palestine there are/were authentic masterpieces ;)

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Lord Tilford, of Tilford says...
2:48pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Lord T; the ones on the occupied territories wall in Palestine there are/were authentic masterpieces

Yeah? Who authenticated them?

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mark, Brighton says...
2:50pm Tue 22 Jan 08

The few people above calling the council naive for allowing this to happen in the first place obviously haven't seen Kensington Street's walls, the production at the back of Bond Street and the New England Quarter. These walls have been managed brilliantly and help the City stand out as an artistic and creative area in the UK. One reason why these walls work is because they're commissioned to such a high standard that most of the time others won't go over what's already there.
Tarner didn't work out, not only because it's location is more remote compared to some of the other walls but because it was a 'free for all' wall, anybody could paint there, which meant about 90% of what was down there you could appreciate but you had groups of younger, less responsible kids who went there with no creative ability and constantly tagged the play areas as well. So ity was ruined by the minority of kids who didn't understand what a privelege it actually was for them to have such a wall.
The only legal wall left (After Blackrock was boarded off and now Tarner) is just the Level skatepark, and that area's far too small to keep everyone happy. I think a new wall should be provided maybe somewhere out of the way of children or a nursery or somewhere where it would be easier to control and monitor.

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jayne, hove says...
2:57pm Tue 22 Jan 08

There is no such thing as graffiti being art, it is all vandalism and pure crap. The old labour loony lefty council started this off and now we have to pay for it, what on earth did they expect. Whereever there is graffiti is breeds more graffiti, fact. Parks are for everyone not just these delinquents from Tarner ward. In one place the council pays for graffiti to be removed and another to be graffitied, complete bonkers. Name and shame the councillors involved and the any unauthorised graffiti'ist. Why on earth are the council not sorting out our dangerous pavements and disgusting seafront, that tourists see and that this city as a seaside resort relies on.
Get rid of the drunks and the druggies and clean this city up or you lot (councillors) are out.

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Lord Tilford, of Tilford says...
2:57pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Traditionally, art had to have some merit before it was put on public display. Providing a free-for-all wall for these vandals just encourages them in their self-deluded belief that they have any talent. Which they don't.

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Well duh, Brighton says...
3:03pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Lord Tilford, not everyone has your antiquated sensibilities. The graffiti on the back of the building of Kensington Gardens is both artistic and well executed. And it's a lot more relevant to modern society than your soon-to-be-extinct notions of what constitutes art.

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Bob, Pease Pottage says...
3:15pm Tue 22 Jan 08

£14,000 to clean it up??

Why not have Eubanks clean it off for his community service?

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Lord Tilford, of Tilford says...
3:16pm Tue 22 Jan 08

soon-to-be-extinct notions of what constitutes art.

What? Are you saying that what people believe is art will be radically different in the future?
Those colourful murales are just big cartoons - no more artistic than the design on my box of cereal.

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Well duh, Brighton says...
3:20pm Tue 22 Jan 08

What? Are you saying that what people believe is art will be radically different in the future?

Well, duh. Obviously. Look at Duchamp - many of your ilk cried foul when he exhibited Fountain for the first time, but now it is widely considered to be a breakthrough work. Your blinkered outlook on life only serves to separate you from the vitality of the changing palette of art. Come, join us! Feel the pulsating life of urban creativity! Cast away the pipe and slippers of tradition!

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olithedrifter, says...
3:56pm Tue 22 Jan 08

absolutley hilarious, funniest comments ive ever read, keep the paint coming!

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Anon, brighton says...
3:59pm Tue 22 Jan 08

There is no such thing as graffiti being art, it is all vandalism and pure crap.

Jayne obiously is a master in the arts... you probaly think an unmade bed is an epic artistic expression, graffiti is a form of art, anybody who disbelieves this then they need a phycological check up to help them adapt to the times,

also graffiti isnt allways a "tag" of a name or something, some of the works are absolutly amazing,

hate to sound clich'e but check some banksy

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JOHNBOY, brighton says...
4:11pm Tue 22 Jan 08

So Mark calls it "art". What a pr*t. ILL like to take his Ken.st art and shove it where its painfull. Its not art you thick head, its 14,000 pounds.

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Spanish Gentleman, Down B&Q for some caustic soda says...
4:30pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Hahaha the loonies of Brighton council are made to look the hippy clowns they are yet again.

I am convinced that the entire council is populated by real life Modern Parents from Viz.

Perhaps they could also allocate an area where teenagers could get drunk and fight in a safe environment and express themselves through fists.

It must hurt trying so hard to be down with the kidz and trendy and to have it blow up in your face. You have got the council you deserve some of you.

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Roy at home, brighton says...
5:07pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Which of our wonderful councillors,who voted for this artistic graffiti in the park, will donate some of their council expences to repairing the damage they have caused. Well!Well!Well! Hasnt it gone quite.

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fred, Brighton says...
5:25pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Brighton has more professional artists and illustrators per square mile than anywhere else, yet the council spurns them and tries to get art on the cheap, by having competitions for schoolkids or letting amateur spray-can artists (there are some good ones, mind you) loose. Hire professional artists and pay them the going rate and you'll get a better result

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Matt, Brighton says...
6:01pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Tarner park was the main place for legal graffiti in Brighton, There would be several graffiti artists painting here most days. The last legal place is now the level, which has around 5 walls which isn't enough enough space for most of Sussex's graffiti writers to paint. Cleaning the park of graffiti is a waste of money, all that will happen is people will paint illegally, so the pieces will just be more rushed and nothing like some of the amazing graffiti currently there which needs a lot of time and skill. This will not stop graffiti, it will just displace it to the streets, trackside and trains.

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Geremy, Brighton says...
6:24pm Tue 22 Jan 08

"a whole 18 months later -"

What on earth are they wittering on a about, artists have been legally painting graffiti in tarnerland park since the early nineties ! The park has nothing to do with the Kensington Street and New England Development at all. Graffiti is a part of tarnerlands history, "We met us with the artists a year and a half ago and agreed to make the park a tolerated zone where they could express themselves.", what a load of rubbish. And Matt is absolutely right, without a legal place to paint, the graffiti that was contained in tarnerland park, will soon be coming to a wall near you.



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tez, 663-132 says...
6:36pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Heres another shining example of Brighton's creative society being squeezed out of the "city". Its hard to understand how anybody following there dream can live and rent studio space here never mind good forbid open a shop rather than another coffee shop. Hell lets just live an easy life and work in a call centre.
Its seems that the council couldnt give a toss about who lives here. Tarner has been blessed for many years by some of the most talented artists in the world, many of them who actually live in Brighton and many of whom hold down repectable jobs, are internationally renowned artists, or actually get hired by the council as illustrators/designe


rs. So by all means sit in front of your telly, moan about your boss, walk the line, talk about it but never do it, we the outsiders will carry on regardless...
...Its been London-by-sea for many a year now and many pencil cases are getting packed and jumping ship.
Bye-Bye

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Josh, says...
8:10pm Tue 22 Jan 08

To say that they were expecting a Kensington Street-esque outcome from Tarner is ridiculous.
How do you think the Aroe's, Vibes's, Rat's, Gary's etc got to where they are.
Through PRACTICE.
If you dont let kids and teenagers figure out what theyre doing how are they going to get good with no legal walls.

Oh well, off to London in a few years for Central Saint Martins
See ya!

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Tom, Hassocks says...
8:19pm Tue 22 Jan 08

There's graggiti, and there's vandalism.
Graffiti isn't vandalism, it can be really tasteful. But when people who haven't thoght out what they're going to paint come along, then you get vandalism.

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histrionic habit, Hanover says...
9:20pm Tue 22 Jan 08

wow once again the Argus proves itself to be the bastion of ignorance once again. It would be an edifying experience to read these comments and see that the people of Brighton are thinking for themselves, instead of regurgitating misinformed opinion or deliberate bias. How about questioning the costs of the clean up- what is this figure based on, and what of the company that provides the quote. This is just exploitative and judgemental reporting once again. Do you people that reply in anger actually use the park, has a single child every come home upset that the park is too colourful? Ignorance should not be used as a reason to condemn artists, if you were to speak to a graffiti writer and see the time, dedication and money they put into their craft maybe yr opinion would change. But panic and lack of reason means that once again the streets of Brighton will be battered, and the tagging and street illegals will increase once again. I live opposite Tarner and have seen some amazing work in there, and some utter crap, either way it doesnt mean it should become the subject of yet more cleansing and attempts to homogenise this city into another identikit, dull place.

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me, brightown says...
9:36pm Tue 22 Jan 08

Couldnt agree more with above..
surely the council should be concentrating on removing other problems from our streets..

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Jo Matthews, says...
2:14am Wed 23 Jan 08

How about questioning the costs of the clean up- what is this figure based on


Er, estimates supplied to the council! Looks like you need to try a bit of thinking for yourself - as you so ironically recommend to others.

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JOHNBOY, brighton says...
9:59am Wed 23 Jan 08

Like the half wits just above,who love a bit of "art". I suggest they invite these budding "Monnets" around and let them produce a masterpiece on their bedroom wall.Then they can have the plesure all to themselves,and it wont cost us to have it cleared up.

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Both Hovering, ex-Brighton says...
10:02am Wed 23 Jan 08

Roy at home wrote:
Which of our wonderful councillors,who voted for this artistic graffiti in the park, will donate some of their council expences to repairing the damage they have caused. Well!Well!Well! Hasnt it gone quite.
Given where Tarner is, I guess the answer to Roy (& others)is: the Labour councillors who you booted out of office in May!

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banksy, moon base alpha says...
10:36am Wed 23 Jan 08

what a bunch of whinny playschoolers. you never done any drawing with crayon on a wall before.. your very quick to cash in on this art culture movement and give it a nice label, but when you try to tame the beast , and it bites back... its tears all the way. go get the savlon!!

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Terry Walpole, Queens Park says...
1:21pm Wed 23 Jan 08

What are the names of the right-on idiots who gave this one the go ahead?

This is what happens when adults think they are down with the kids.

The Argus should publish names.

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Can't Draw for Toffee, Brighton says...
1:44pm Wed 23 Jan 08

I'm no artist, I have to say.
But daubing on walls, floors and play equipment is surely the pursuit of a 3 year old?

If you wish to commission a painting on the side of a building (what used to be called murals) then fair enough. But to give free rein to a bunch of unknown people is ridiculous.

As for the comment above on how all the other 'artists' became so 'good' - through practice - well, let them practice on canvas/paper/ the back of old cardboard boxes. And isn't that what most superior artists of the past did, paint on canvas / paper etc?? Accepting the odd Sistine Chapel for the truly exceptional...
Just another example of the world going mad

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lucy, brighton says...
2:13pm Wed 23 Jan 08

What I really like about graffiti art is the vibrant, interactive nature of it - ever changing and evolving as new artists come along to contribute their ideas so I'm off to Kensington Street to go and contribute my own tags (which I need to practice) all over the murals that are there. I Invite all artistic freethinkers to come and join me in making my new statement on this wall.

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Matt, brighton says...
3:12pm Wed 23 Jan 08

Can't Draw for Toffee wrote:
I'm no artist, I have to say. But daubing on walls, floors and play equipment is surely the pursuit of a 3 year old? If you wish to commission a painting on the side of a building (what used to be called murals) then fair enough. But to give free rein to a bunch of unknown people is ridiculous. As for the comment above on how all the other 'artists' became so 'good' - through practice - well, let them practice on canvas/paper/ the back of old cardboard boxes. And isn't that what most superior artists of the past did, paint on canvas / paper etc?? Accepting the odd Sistine Chapel for the truly exceptional... Just another example of the world going mad
As for the comment above on how all the other 'artists' became so 'good' - through practice - well, let them practice on canvas/paper/ the back of old cardboard boxes.


Have you every seen a pice of cardboard paper that is big enough for a piece of graffiti!?! Spray paint wont even work properly on these things it just soaks straight through. Most writers dont want to paint canvas, graffiti always was painted on walls and trains and always will be. Closing Tarner will not stop the graffiti its just going to be painted in other places

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Mike, Sussex says...
3:25pm Wed 23 Jan 08

Yet again the rate and tax payer are there to pick up the bill when the council get a new hair brained idea and it all goes wrong.
I cant understand why no one from the council was monitoring it. It sounds like they were left to spray for months before some dozy counciller woke up.
Of course as usual its very very easy to waste tax payers money.
How incredible that these officials can get away with such a disaster without even being named and shamed.

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Geremy, Brighton says...
3:41pm Wed 23 Jan 08

I reiterate, there has been graffiti in tarnerland park for the best part of the last 20 YEARS. This is not something new.

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Parent, Brighton says...
5:36pm Wed 23 Jan 08

It's the mess they make that's more of a problem than the art work. I actually like a lot of what I see sprayed there, some of them are very talented artists. Unfortunately while painting they are drinking and smashing glass bottles all over the playground.

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ed, portslade says...
6:02pm Wed 23 Jan 08

actually quite like it and i would like to see the pavillion get the same makeover, perhaps we could dig out a few b-list celebs,has beens and wannabes to turn up for a photo shoot? any offers?

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dave, nowhere says...
7:03pm Wed 23 Jan 08

to be honest, theres going to be much more attacking now there is no where for people to paint!
Obviously another wise choice by the council. not!
You stop the legal places, then BRING ON THE ILLEGAL GRAFFITI!
x

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skint artist, says...
8:29pm Wed 23 Jan 08

have you sad posh twats got nothing better to whinge about than criticising someone elses culture? get a grip! theres millions of people in this world living in poverty. and if anyone frm brighton councils reading im prepared to clean that park up for 13grand and ill even pick up some dog **** for ya..

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histrionic habit, hellish hanover says...
9:30pm Wed 23 Jan 08

jo matthews, you are wrong to assume that this estimate comes from numerous and realisitic quotes, in fact these are figures based purely on making a massive profit from gullible councils. Believe me I know a great deal about the actual costs of these kind of clean up projects. The scale of the task is very small, and the amount of both man hours and specialist equipment is deliberately inflated to justify both council spending and the continued existence of the exploitative firms involved.

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dcThrush, says...
9:24am Thu 24 Jan 08

must be some expensive emulsion they are planning to use to cost 14k maybe its made from real gold who knows

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martin woodhead, brighton says...
9:55am Thu 24 Jan 08

nice idea done on the cheap.
a little bit of control and the project might have worked a free for all was probably a mistake

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flat foot soozie, hove says...
11:31am Thu 24 Jan 08

IT LOOKS GOOD, AND ALLOWS YOUNG PEPOLE TO EXPRESS THEMSELFS

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wavey davy, worthing says...
3:12pm Thu 24 Jan 08

does it occur to anyof you narrow minded folk that some of these graffiti writers pay council tax and are therefore entitled to the same sort of privaliges that the council throw at the 'yout'. the only way to control legal sites like these and at the same time steer the younger painters in a more legal direction is to employ an older writer to keep the site under control and stop/clean any tags on the play equipment etc it worked in birmingham until the council pulled the funding and exactly the same mayhem followed.
you will never stop graffiti (check out some of the prehistoric art)but by removing legal places to paint your just driving even the legal painters back on to the streets.
oh and as for it costing ££!! how much? have they not heard of community service?

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!JECH!, Hastings says...
11:45pm Thu 24 Jan 08

This is stupid criminal crime YEAH RIGHT you said it could be a place to paint and your not living up to your word.
I hate the councils
Leave it as it is ERGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!
there will be so much more graffit on the streets now.

Im coming over to paint illegal on on your walls windows everything gonna destroy it all now, now you will see what vandalism is.

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oh god, all over the shop says...
6:01am Fri 25 Jan 08

Some of the comments on this page are a complete joke. Daily Mail reading arse holes who have no idea what they are talking about. Graffiti wont be stopped and there is nothing you can do about it.

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argus is awful, brighton says...
6:04am Fri 25 Jan 08

But within months, word got around and people were coming from other counties to spray the park. Drafts of people were coming by train with rucksacks full of spray paint.

"Soon it wasn't just the park that was covered but a whole trail along the streets, walls and hedges leading to the park.

"They covered the children's play facilities in paint so parents didn't want to let their kids go on them."

oh my god people are getting together to do something artistic?
Children scared by words written on the playground equipment.
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!

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Lord Tilford, of Tilford says...
2:12pm Fri 25 Jan 08

Graffiti is nothing more than vandalism, pure and simple. Comparing it to works by great artists or even prehistoric cave drawings just shows an ignorance of art. It's not cultural, it's not artistic and it's not particularly difficult to do - anyone with a few spray paints can write a big word or draw a cartoon. Expressing yourself!? Don't make me laugh.
Why should these talentless vandals, who only seem to have reached the level of education where they can write their name badly and colour it in without going over the edges - achievable by most averagely intelligent 4 year-olds - be provided with ANY areas where they can indulge their destructiveness? Should councils also provide fake bus-stops so they can kick those in and leave the real ones alone?
Thankfully, most vandals/graffiti painters grow out of it eventually, unless they're really, really thick and immature. The ones that persist should be heavily fined if caught.

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Lord Smetherington, now, when did i put that kettle says...
5:01pm Fri 25 Jan 08

Egad, the youth of today. I mean, REALLY. Don't they know spraypaint is for strictly for huffing? Wastrels, the lot of them.

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louie, Brighton says...
6:21pm Fri 25 Jan 08

why do people seem to think that ALL graffiti is vandalism? the legal murals painted in brighton are incredible and as for the **** saying to paint a piece takes no skill. i ask you to pick up a can and try and paint something. Or even just try to design a piece or mural. Narrow minded upper class **** who have to express the way they feel about the "uncontrolable youth of today". If someone is painting in a legal spot how is that vandalism?? it takes weeks something moths of designing and planning of no tonly the letters and characters being painted but the colours used in the letters and the background. Im 15 and both paint and photograph gaffiti. The majority of writers i know paint legaly. There are some illegal painters in brighton of my age. BUT the "uncontrolable children" you are accusing of ruining your city are infact adults.

honestly who can decide what is art and what is not? If you dont like it dont **** look at it!

But if you go round moaning and paying for our legal spots to be taken from us were just gunna paint more illegals as there is no where else for us to place our ART.

the people who do tag on the play equipment are the pikey little youts that pick up used cans. They **** us off as much as they **** of you haters.

so now the council have payed stupid amounts of money to clean up a legal painting spot which will therefore cause them to pay more of the tax payers money to clean up illegal work.

well done brighton council i salute you in your naive narrow minded actions


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happy happy, nazi germany says...
11:53pm Sat 26 Jan 08

i love the argus.
i love ignorance.
i believe both
IGNORANCE
and the
ARGUS
to be indisputable human rights.
Burn all that I dont understand.

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fartyfartyfartyfarty, prisoner cell block h says...
12:49am Sun 27 Jan 08

why not use lord-fartfords house as a practise area for the wanna be vandalz!! keep him off news forums like this - and give him something to really moan about - dear me all these grown people moaning about a few splodges of paint - oooooh scary!!!

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Paul Oldman, Brighton says...
6:23pm Mon 28 Jan 08

Lord Tilbury, How can you deny that something is an artform purely based on the fact you don't like it, or that it's practicalities aren't worthy of your elitist requirements? I imagine with values like that your cultural repetoir is sadly limited to Operas, P.G Wodehouse Novels, and Pagannini, all of whom I appreciate, unlike the Impressionists, who were just a bunch of fakes who were clearly incapable of doing a highly detailed painting or Picasso who should be stripped of his profile as one of the most forefront artists of our time (or the title of artist altogether!) because I think that the majority of his work is technically mediocre.

I came onto this forum to read about the general public's views on the subject and have been shocked at the ignorance of many of the posts that I have read on here, especially from seemingly intelligent people who can't seem to differentiate between art (be it of a high standard or not) and vandalism and then exploit the fact that the opression of this artform over the last 40 years has forced Grafitti to become synonymous with vandalism. It's (sadly prevalent) views like this that are ultimately responsible for the level of spray and pen vandalism that there is today.Is it any wonder that many Grafitti artists have become criminalised (more so may I add, in towns and cities where there are no legal spaces) and the lines between Graffiti and vandalism have become so blurred? What many people don't seem to understand is that Brighton has got a very active Graffiti community, the cream of whom have been able to develop their skills to such a high standard that they now receive commissions from all over the world and no longer revert to painting illegally in order to vent their creativity and get their material seen by the public. The majority of the rest hone their skills in legal spaces. Thanks to the provision of legal spaces over the last 20 years Brighton has nurtured a community of hundreds of Grafitti writers (of mixed abilities), the majority of whom have thankfully never become criminalised or opressed by fascist authorities. But do you think that these artists are just going to stop being Graffiti artists because their canvas has been taken away? How many artists or musicians do you know that would be anywhere near complete without the capacity to satisfy their creative urges irrelevant of the level of competing professional or personal commitments? Worse still the social impact of this naive move by the council will see aspiring new artists who perceive breaking the law in order to partake in Graffiti as the norm, this will surely have social repercussions beyond vandalism.

No, what i envisage is a barrage of illegal Graffiti and not just a return to how things were before legal spaces were introduced, but a far worse and more costly response from the Graffiti community (many of whom may never have or never would have painted illegaly) An uprising fuelled by the much larger contingent of writers born of the legal days and the general feeling within graff circles (legal or not) of a need for protest. All of this in addition to the minority who actually are vandals who ar probably responsible for the majority of the said vandalism and care nothing for the culture or foundations of Grafitti and are giving the Artform a bad name. Yes I agree that the heritage of Grafitti (although it did produce some amazing art)isn't the most honourable of stories as far as the law goes but like it or not it has become a culture probably more universal and appreciated than most other visual art movement today and the climate that you currently see in Brighton and Hove today (before Tarner becoming illegal) was probably the best of a bad situation, in the context of the law.

It has taken almost 20 years to get brightobn to a point where the vast majority of graffiti is legal but I regret to say I feel that it could be much longer to before we see a return to a predominanlty legal graff community if the spaces are taken away.

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a, a says...
8:08pm Mon 28 Jan 08

Lord Tilford wrote:
\\\\\\\"a group of spray-can Cezannes in the hope of creating an artistic masterpiece\\\\\\\" - naive or wot? Has anyone ever seen any graffiti that was better than mediocre?
you barstads. my friend used to spray. and i know the only way to get better than "mediocre" is to practise

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Barry Bischov, Brighton says...
11:08am Tue 29 Jan 08

Lord Tilford wrote:
Lord T; the ones on the occupied territories wall in Palestine there are/were authentic masterpieces
Yeah? Who authenticated them?
THE THOUSANDS OF ART COLLECTORS AND FANS THAT ARE PAYING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS JUST FOR A SILKSCREEN PRINT (NOT EVEN AN EXCLUSIVE ONE AT THAT)OF THOSE IMAGES.

YOU MAKE ME SICK IT'S BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF THE POPULATION FEEL ALIENATED AND INTIMIDATED BY THE ART WORLD AND AVOID HAVING AN OPINION ON ANYTHING ARTISTIC THROUGH FEAR OF BEING BRANDED WRONG. WELL HERE'S SOME NEWS FOR YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH ART, I WOULD NEVER DREAM OF TRYING TO DISCREDIT ANYONES ARTISTIC PREFERENCES BECAUSE I WOULD NEVER WANT TO EMBARASS MYSELF BY APPEARING AS IGNORANT AND DOGMATIC AS YOU HAVE SHOWN YOURSELF TO BE.

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Paul Oldman, Brighton says...
11:25am Tue 29 Jan 08

Lord Tilford wrote:
Graffiti is nothing more than vandalism, pure and simple. Comparing it to works by great artists or even prehistoric cave drawings just shows an ignorance of art. It\'s not cultural, it\'s not artistic and it\'s not particularly difficult to do - anyone with a few spray paints can write a big word or draw a cartoon. Expressing yourself!? Don\'t make me laugh. Why should these talentless vandals, who only seem to have reached the level of education where they can write their name badly and colour it in without going over the edges - achievable by most averagely intelligent 4 year-olds - be provided with ANY areas where they can indulge their destructiveness? Should councils also provide fake bus-stops so they can kick those in and leave the real ones alone? Thankfully, most vandals/graffiti painters grow out of it eventually, unless they\'re really, really thick and immature. The ones that persist should be heavily fined if caught.
Should councils also provide fake bus-stops so they can kick those in and leave the real ones alone?

I CAN SEE WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM BUT,
YES, THE SHOULD IF KICKING IN BUS STOPS WAS AN ESTABLISHED ARTFORM APPRECIATED BY MILLIONS.

I suggest that you take a long look at your own comments before you start to dismiss a whole global movement of being 'ignorant of art'.

It might interest you to know that a massive proportion of the local Grafitti community feel just as angry about the few VANDALS that have spoilt it for the rest who are ARTISTS.

I feel sorry for you.....