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'Serious threat' to pub trade
11:42pm Tuesday 17th June 2008
Comments (62)Experts have warned that the pub industry is under serious threat from the smoking ban, the credit crunch and cheap supermarket alcohol.
A survey by The Argus has revealed that at least 100 Sussex pubs are on the market - where they have been languishing for months with no buyers.
A leading commercial property agent said conditions will become even worse in coming months, sending more pubs out of business.
Patrick Walker, partner at AW Gore and Co's Brighton branch, said: "The combination of smoking ban, increase in alcohol duty, inflation linked rents, the credit crunch, energy costs and a general downturn in the economy have conspired to create the perfect storm.
"There has definitely been an increase in pubs coming to the market.
"Perhaps more worryingly, there has been a massive rise in people who want to put their pubs on the market who are currently refraining from doing so, because there are simply no buyers or because there are no funds available as far as the banks are concerned.
"From a personal viewpoint, I see things getting a lot worse before they get any better and the licensed trade in general is in for a very rough ride."
The view was echoed by the Campaign for Real Ale. Its Sussex spokesman said: "We've seen a dramatic rise in the number of pubs being sold in the past six months.
"And this may not have even reached its peak yet. The smoking laws have turned people off their local and increases in duty on alcohol have reduced profit margins.
"The picture in Sussex, which is pretty dire, is being repeated right across the country. The pub industry is in real trouble because of these policies." Many pubs have been forced to reduce their selling price in recent weeks. Last week The Argus reported that the Toby Inn in Woodingdean, Brighton, had cut its selling price from £400,000 to £200,000.
The pub has been closed for two years after a violent attack on customers by a gang armed with metal poles and baseball bats.
If no buyer is found, the building could be converted into flats.
Alan Walker, landlord of the Cricketers in Broadwater, Worthing, said: "In ten years time there will be half of the small local pubs we have at the moment because they are going out of business.
"The supermarkets are the biggest factor. They can sell beer so cheaply and when there's a recession it's no wonder people go and buy their booze in shops and drink it at home.
"We accept that but there are so many other reasons why landlords are under pressure. It's a dying trade in some respects."
Have you stopped going to the pub so often? Tell us below.
Your Say YourArgus
bobby bigballs, Brighton says...
1:04am Wed 18 Jun 08
S, Sussex says...
2:40am Wed 18 Jun 08
M, Newcastle says...
4:41am Wed 18 Jun 08
S wrote:The pub trade is a large part of the British economy...and let's face it, lifestlyle. I'm not saying it should be, but it is, and this decline is extremely worrying. They SHOULD charge less for non-alcoholic drinks, but the point to be made is that in general drinks in pubs have increased far too much in the past 5 years or so, and this combined with, for example, the smoking ban, has contributed to pretty much everyone being angry about the state of affairs. For good reason. Can anyone explain why the duty on alcohol has increased so much when in the majority of the rest of Europe it has remained the same? Please tell me.
My heart bleeds for the pub trade - not! Perhaps it\'s time for them to start being customer-friendly - charging much more modest sums for soft drinks and mineral water would be an excellent starting point!
Frank, Brighton says...
8:30am Wed 18 Jun 08
That's easy to answer. The rest of Europe pay most of their taxes in income taxes (some even have two types of income tax: a national and local).
The Thatcher government switched our taxation system from direct taxation to indirect, which is why we have one of the lowest rates of income tax in Europe but some of the highest prices for luxury goods.
It should also be pointed out that British property prices are far higher too which means that pub landlords are forking out much more before they even start charging for anything.
Good pubs will survive all this as they'll offer something beyond just drinking. Pubs that offer little more than booze will, sadly, go to the wall.
David Vernon's right about kids stopping people going: I used to go a pub 4 o4 5 times a week before I had kids, I go about once a year now. On the other hand, that's a good thing -we see far fewer kids stuck outside with a bottle of lemonade and a packet of crisps.
Jeff, Brighton says...
8:39am Wed 18 Jun 08
FRED, brighton says...
8:40am Wed 18 Jun 08
amy, hove says...
8:48am Wed 18 Jun 08
so much for customer relations.
Nick, Brighton says...
8:51am Wed 18 Jun 08
Robert Feal-Martinez, Swindon says...
9:13am Wed 18 Jun 08
Judge Nutmeg, Hove says...
9:18am Wed 18 Jun 08
Flat Foot Soozie, Brunswick Square says...
9:21am Wed 18 Jun 08
They have brought upon themselves their own destruction by keep going for the "refurbishment" number - paid for out of beer prices - in accordance wth each "lifestyle" whim.
They so often do not feel like a like, and therefore they have lost the local support.
The arrgogance of the Long Man owner yesterday was symptomatic of why for pubs it's overs.
I should not be surprised if Brighton's pubs are reduced by two-thirds. And I hope The Cricketers goes - its prices are a disgrace - and, as others have said, the price for soft drinks everywhere certainly makes people head for the supermarkets instead.
Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
9:32am Wed 18 Jun 08
Jeff wrote:I really don't understand why smokers are deserting pubs.
As a smoker, I rarely visit pubs now whereas before I'd spend £20-£30 per week in my local.
I am a smoker and I am more than happy to smoke outside the pub.
sheenadon, darlington says...
10:04am Wed 18 Jun 08
Miserable, Brighton says...
10:55am Wed 18 Jun 08
And, also I saw somebody enjoying themselves in the park last week, lets ban parks as well.
Why on earth would anybody want to go to the pub and enjoy themselves!
chris, hove says...
11:04am Wed 18 Jun 08
Rob, Shoreham says...
11:16am Wed 18 Jun 08
Even places with lovely views and great locations get it wrong. It's no wonder people drink at home.
If the food and staff and attitude were better people would be more motivated to pay the money to visit them.
Bob, Brighton says...
11:27am Wed 18 Jun 08
The problem is down to the supermarkets and off licenses selling beer as a loss leader. This means you can buy it for less than they charge for water.
Whilst this goes on then people will drink at home and not in the social environment of the pub.
Dirk, Brighton says...
12:17pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Eco Man, Kemp Town says...
12:21pm Wed 18 Jun 08
What on earth is a wet led pub?
Dave, Wivelsfield says...
12:45pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Eco Man wrote:A wet led pub is one that serves drinks and the odd packet of crisps or bowl of chips, a proper drinking pub, compared to the mordern trendy sport bars, wine bars, gastro pubs and theme pubs.
"If the government had stuck to their manifesto regarding wet led pubs and social clubs being exempt, I dont think we would bein this position." What on earth is a wet led pub?
Drink up, super market says...
12:45pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Antony Henstock, Blackpool says...
12:46pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Yes, a real shame.
Debtman, derry says...
1:03pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Supermarkets have always sold beer cheaper without a problem. The smoking ban is in less than a year yet pub closures are up 7fold. Smokers want to enjoy their drink and their cigarettes and pay almost £6 per packet. They do not care about pennies on pints as Judge Nutmeg said so why do you not admit that the smoking ban is killing the pubs?
nativedweller, Brighton says...
1:20pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Cellarman, Btn says...
2:30pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Bob wrote:Some loss leaders yes, but that does not excuse the excessive profits wanted by pub owners, whether conglomerate or single.
Chris from Hove does not know what he is talking about.
The problem is down to the supermarkets and off licenses selling beer as a loss leader. This means you can buy it for less than they charge for water.
Whilst this goes on then people will drink at home and not in the social environment of the pub.
I've just bought four 9 gallon barrels for an average of £68.50, that makes it 95p per pint, what excuse can you think of to sell it at £2.80 upwards?
Eco Man, Kemp Town says...
2:38pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Why put up with them? Better at home.
Moon Pig, Brighton says...
3:49pm Wed 18 Jun 08
nativedweller wrote:I agree.
I don't see what all the fuss is about, I've been out pubbing since before I was 18... Oh there's the problem! Too many underage drinkers. The amount of times I've been turned away from a pub without ID & I'm 27 but then a group of kids will get in instead! I feel uncomfortable in bars now, trouble can kick off in a second & its all too expensive. I have more fun getting mates round with some drinks & some music. No closing times, no smoking ban & no trouble!
So much trouble in town now, even the quieter parts have their moments. Add to that the pubs/clubs/bars are overpriced, overcrowded and generally have bad service, what incentive is there? Then the taxi queues, getting home etc.. it's no wonder people stay in and have friends over instead really. The smoking thing doesn't bother me so much but the non-smokers get left behind and it's very difficult to keep a table if more than a couple of you want a quick smoke, you can't always take your drink with you but you can't leave it in case it gets spiked etc...
I don't know when it all got so complicated, lol
Judge Moody, newhaven says...
5:07pm Wed 18 Jun 08
FRED wrote:Listen Fred. Its not a political issue. Its a deterent to the rest of Europe coming through our ports because hopefully they wont be able to afford the ale.Do you relly think that the prices will go down with a new government. I'm one of the lucky ones. Living close to the newhaven dieppe route means I can stock up on bolly and stella at a fraction of the price and while I'm there I might have a fag in a pub aswell.
The reason that alcohol has increased so much {along with everything else}is very simple.LABOUR.Those that voted for them put up with it.And those that di"nt.Wait untill they get kicked out.
Frankie, seaside says...
6:02pm Wed 18 Jun 08
mandyv, cmabs says...
7:56pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Yes, nothing to do with the always has been cheaper supermarket booze.
I smoke hubby does not, I am not freezing for anyone and paying for the pleasure. More holidays abroad only to Countries who want smokers money, without being long Haul flights.
freedom2choose.info for tolerant non-smokers and smokers alike
Claudette33, Taunton says...
8:04pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Bob wrote:Bob, Chris doesn't have it wrong. The supermarkets have ALWAYS had cheap booze on offer. This is not a new practice. The reason a lot of proper pub goers are not going to the pubs is because of the smoking ban. I see a lot of people getting confused between a good old-fashioned English Pub and the likes of Wetherspoons. Going to a proper English pub is like going to a relative's house, you see family and catch up on what's been going on in your lives, share the local gossip etc. Wetherspoons is nothing more than a restaurant that sells beer.
Chris from Hove does not know what he is talking about. The problem is down to the supermarkets and off licenses selling beer as a loss leader. This means you can buy it for less than they charge for water. Whilst this goes on then people will drink at home and not in the social environment of the pub.
But since the smoking ban its a bit difficult to go to the PUB and have a natter if youre a smoker, which 70% of regular pub goes are/were. You cant just sit around and have a long chat anymore. People are always coming and going as they have to go outside to smoke. If youre lucky, while youre out, no one will pinch your seat. The weather isnt always helpful, no one likes to stand in the pouring rain, gale force winds or bone chilling cold.
My husband and myself were regular pub goers until the ban. We knew we could have bought cheap alcohol at the supermarket and sat at home, but it wasnt the alcohol that drew us to the pub it was the company and conversation with other people. We, along with all of our friends have had to resort to buying cheap alcohol at the supermarkets and take turns going each others houses on a Saturday night.
Even with the price of alcohol going up in the pub, we would all happily swap the friends houses for the pub if theyd lift the smoking ban. Even though going to friends houses is cheaper, there are usually always the same people there, but with the pub, you never know whos going to drop by.
No Name, Worthing says...
8:23pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Donnie, UK says...
8:31pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Stroller, Hove says...
9:01pm Wed 18 Jun 08
That just leaves the big, chav places.
Hove Place might survive, though, as it has a decent garden, so does the Sussex.
But, in general, the end of the English pub is imminent. People do not always want to be in a big pub.
And what's all that above about Wetherspoon's being a "restaurant"? Awful food. You're better off with a bag of pork scratchings.
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
9:14pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Bill C, Bath says...
9:17pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Already New Labour is allowing the health prohibitionists to start the next campaign against alcohol - and most people drink. The lack of backbone left in the British to protest against such laws (particularly based on the weak evidence for harm from passive smoking) I find truly depressing. People let New Labour walk all over them and do nothing - pathetic.
Bill, says...
9:32pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Jimmy, Fife says...
9:46pm Wed 18 Jun 08
John B, says...
9:48pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Frankie wrote:lol. Is that the one where the bouncers wear headsets even though they could never be more than 10 yards from eachother at the most? ****
I remember the pub by the station that used to have free bowls of prawns and whelks on the counter on a Sunday. Yes FREE. Now it\'s £4.50 for one glass of wine and so noisy you can\'t even have a decent conversation and bouncers on every door. YUK
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
10:10pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Bill must be flushed with pride over his very deep, earth, if not bowel, moving contribution.
Stuart, Johannesburg says...
10:42pm Wed 18 Jun 08
mandyv, cambs says...
11:49pm Wed 18 Jun 08
Even he wanted to go out every night when were in Spain.
Also glad to see the once upon a time antis hero has pulled up the Heart attack reduction misinformation.
http://www.freedom2c
hoose.info/news_view
er.php?id=723
chas, says...
8:44am Thu 19 Jun 08
RTS, UK says...
12:22pm Thu 19 Jun 08
Bill wrote:Yup, in a few years time someone just like him will be proclaiming people who can't socialise in public without an alcoholic beverage must have a serious drink problem.
God, it's David New Mills creeping out from under his stone. Your contribution to this debate is the equivalent of the contents of a toilet bowl after a good curry. Go crawl back under your stone - you're not welcome.
The hospitality industry isn't about NEED, it's about WANT and if it doesn't deliver what people want then it goes into decline.
Sadly, pubs are now obliged by law to offer a smoke free environment a significant portion of their customer base doesn't want.
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
1:22pm Thu 19 Jun 08
RTS may be nearer the truth than he knows. I'd prefer the alcoholic drink in my hand, tho' not just any one, but can cope with a J2O, without having to slip outside to feed my addiction from a hip flask.
As pub numbers have been declining for decades, perhaps the sector hasn't completely supplied what people want?
Happily, pubs are now obliged by law to offer a smoke free environment that a significant portion of their customer base wants.
Judge Nutmeg, Hove says...
2:41pm Thu 19 Jun 08
David wrote:Which is why they're all doing so well these days then, David, you bright lad?
RTS, UK on 12:22pm today. RTS may be nearer the truth than he knows. I'd prefer the alcoholic drink in my hand, tho' not just any one, but can cope with a J2O, without having to slip outside to feed my addiction from a hip flask. As pub numbers have been declining for decades, perhaps the sector hasn't completely supplied what people want? Happily, pubs are now obliged by law to offer a smoke free environment that a significant portion of their customer base wants.
chas, suffolk says...
4:04pm Thu 19 Jun 08
As pub numbers have been declining for decadesThis from somebody who says that all his locals are always overflowing. Since the smoking ban pubs have been closing at more than four times the rate before the ban.
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
7:33pm Thu 19 Jun 08
If less than totally bright JN were to read my contribution where I said "pub numbers have been declining for decades" and absorb this statement, would he care to contradict it?
Some pubs are doing well, some aren't, the latter due to a combination of higher alcohol prices, increased rents, particularly from Pubcos, and increased costs in general for pubs, an economic squeeze on drinkers, changing tastes and more comfortable homes with big screen tvs and Sky, and smoking restrictions.
If pubs can't deliver what customers want, perhaps they need in some instances to reconsider what's on offer, and not just take custom for granted.
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
7:51pm Thu 19 Jun 08
Poor old muddled chas w. should know better than to misquote me and think I wouldn't notice.
David has never said "that all his locals are always overflowing", but has on occasion said that at weekends he had difficulty in finding a spare table in Pleasantville pubs. This past week during the day, they've been neither packed out nor deserted. Perhaps if chas. were to follow my example and visit his local hostelries more frequently than his weekly, or was it monthly outing, they might well prosper.
As they say, "Use 'em or lose 'em,"
Judge Nutmeg, Hove says...
10:07am Fri 20 Jun 08
Therefore it is stupid of you to say "Happily, pubs are now obliged by law to offer a smoke free environment that a significant portion of their customer base wants."
Firstly, if it was what customers wanted, it wouldn't have to be enforced by law. Secondly, a larger proportion of drinkers either want smoking to be allowed or don't care if it is. We are killing off pubs in this country to satisfy bigots who don't go to them anyway. Labour have committed an act of cultural vandalism with this vindictive law.
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
11:33am Fri 20 Jun 08
I actually said "pub numbers have been declining for decades". The landlords of pubs I visit don't speak of it as an issue, but simply adapt, and get on with running their businesses.
Perhaps it was simply forthright of me to say "Happily, pubs are now obliged by law ...."
As the licensed trade had years to provide proper facilities for non-smokers, and failed to do so, the Health Act,2006, simply made their decision for them.
Whatever JN feels about that law, it went through parliament on the basis of a free vote, for which fact I am delighted, even "if a larger proportion of drinkers" are supposedly not.
RTS, UK says...
3:04pm Fri 20 Jun 08
It's all very well admonishing pubs that don't adapt and forget that many pubs (especially city pubs) are landlocked, not to mention the size of a shoebox. It's virtually impossible for them to compete for the smoking customer base (and lets face it, that WAS about 50% of regular pub goers) against the larger pub up the road with a large outdoor area, and NEVER EVER does one pub doing well make up for another going out of business.
It is only the intolerant in society who support this law, who demand that everywhere provide surrounding suitable to themselves (whether they visit these places or not). In a liberal society intolerance is one of the things we should be intolerant of, as without tolerance there can be no freedom.
chas, suffolk says...
3:14pm Fri 20 Jun 08
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
8:03pm Fri 20 Jun 08
Chas. should perhaps stop living in his fantasy past world, when beer was 1/9p a pint, and pubs were smoke filled dens, and decidedly unpleasant to many.
"I should imagin that even New Mills, since the smoking ban that pubs are as popular."
I don't understand this sentence. Could befuddled chas. perhaps try again, and reconstruct it so that it may be at least a little meaningful
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
8:14pm Fri 20 Jun 08
The pro-smokers' lobby is apparently not happy with any outdoor smoking facility, be it the pavement, a so called cattle shed, or the best of facilities, with heating and plasma t.v.
I'm quite happy to frequent landlocked pubs,of shoebox size or larger, as long as the beer's o.k., and the atmosphere is fug free, and am quite tolerant of smokers who refrain from smoking inside.
Cheers!
chas, suffolk says...
4:11pm Sat 21 Jun 08
I don't understand this sentence. Could befuddled chas. perhaps try again, and reconstruct it so that it may be at least a little meaningfulPerhaps, somebody who likes to criticise others on their spelling, grammer etc., could make it clear whether he is asking a question or not. If he is asking a question, he should use a question mark or finish with a full stop.
David, New Mills, U.K. says...
4:27pm Sat 21 Jun 08
Well spotted, or unspotted, as the case may be.
"?" or even ".". There now, so, could old chas perhaps now parse his confused sentence? My original question was perhaps rhetorical, knowing full well that chas might be struggling to answer. My immediately preceding question is not, tho' chas will probably still struggle to supply a meaningful interpretation of his sentence.
Judge Nutmeg, Hove says...
10:34am Mon 23 Jun 08
The smoking ban has been a *great* success.
Bert in NZ, Brighton says...
3:14am Tue 24 Jun 08
David Vernon, saltdean says...
1:01am Wed 18 Jun 08