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Lie detectors catch out benefits cheats
Lie detectors are being used to root out benefit cheats - helping to save a council more than £11,000.
The Voice Risk Analysis (VRA) system has helped Wealden District Council stop 35 incorrect payments.
It works by detecting stress patterns - such as hesitation or changing of answers - in the voice of callers to indicate whether they might be lying.
Changes are measured against the callerís ìnormalî voice which is recorded at the start of a phone call when a series of basic questions are asked.
The system is being trialled in Wealden alongside 11 other local authorities.
In a report to councillors, Ian Nisbet, the council's benefits manager, said: "There were 35 cases where overpayments amounting to approximately £11,500 were raised as a result of changes in their circumstances they had failed to notify of.
"Included in these cases were eight that were identified as high risk by the technology and visits were carried out as a result.
"The figure is very low. It demonstrates that the vast majority of Wealden's caseload is honest and compares favourably with results from other pilots conducted in large urban conurbations."
Anecdotal evidence suggests that the lie detector test acts as a deterrent to would-be fraudsters, with higher numbers of claimants volunteering that their personal circumstances had altered and that they no longer required benefits.
Mr Nisbet added: "Some customers have also decided not to proceed with their claim once they are aware of the process for various reasons, for example, they remember that the partner who had left has suddenly moved back in."
The technology monitors changes in the voice and performs thousands of mathematical calculations.
It supports the judgement of the council's telephone operators who are trained in intelligent questioning and behavioural analysis.
The system is also being trialled in Birmingham, Chester-le-Street, Coventry, Derwentside, Durham, Edinburgh, Harrow, Hinckley and Bosworth, Lambeth, Rochford, Sedgefield, and Warwick.
The Government has announced its intention to extend the evaluation process for a further year with a view to rolling out the scheme nationally.
Anti-fraud minister James Plaskitt said every council could have one by the end of next year.
He said: "Overall, the huge majority of people who receive benefits are entitled to them. ìHowever, there is a minority who will still try to steal money from those people who are most vulnerable.
"The cheats are not getting past this system as the evidence already shows it is very good at detecting stress levels in the voice."
Do you favour the spread of lie detector technology? Join the debate at theargus.co.uk/news
11:38am Monday 12th May 2008
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CommentPosted by: Jim, Brighton on 11:54am Mon 12 May 08
Absolutely, clamp down on the cheats. But let's not forget that some people may be naturally stressed during these calls and thereby give false readings. Dealing with any public body can be more than frustrating (I've worked for two). This should not be a blanket excuse to withhold benefit from deserving cases.
Absolutely, clamp down on the cheats. But let's not forget that some people may be naturally stressed during these calls and thereby give false readings. Dealing with any public body can be more than frustrating (I've worked for two). This should not be a blanket excuse to withhold benefit from deserving cases.
Posted by: Roy Hills, Heathfield on 12:03pm Mon 12 May 08
The very thought of having to phone an incompetent, uncaring, heavily regional accented bunch of pillocks as found in, for instance, the Child Tax Credit Office fills me with enough dread to send the machine off the scale!
The very thought of having to phone an incompetent, uncaring, heavily regional accented bunch of pillocks as found in, for instance, the Child Tax Credit Office fills me with enough dread to send the machine off the scale!
Posted by: sm on 12:33pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Roy Hills[/bold] wrote:
The very thought of having to phone an incompetent, uncaring, heavily regional accented bunch of pillocks as found in, for instance, the Child Tax Credit Office fills me with enough dread to send the machine off the scale![/quote] ain't THAT the truth!!!!!
Roy Hills wrote:
The very thought of having to phone an incompetent, uncaring, heavily regional accented bunch of pillocks as found in, for instance, the Child Tax Credit Office fills me with enough dread to send the machine off the scale!
ain't THAT the truth!!!!!
Posted by: John, Cyberspace on 12:37pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Jim[/bold] wrote:
Absolutely, clamp down on the cheats. But let's not forget that some people may be naturally stressed during these calls and thereby give false readings. Dealing with any public body can be more than frustrating (I've worked for two). This should not be a blanket excuse to withhold benefit from deserving cases.[/quote] Nobody loses benefits solely on lie detector evidence. It's an indication that further enquiries are needed.
Jim wrote:
Absolutely, clamp down on the cheats. But let's not forget that some people may be naturally stressed during these calls and thereby give false readings. Dealing with any public body can be more than frustrating (I've worked for two). This should not be a blanket excuse to withhold benefit from deserving cases.
Nobody loses benefits solely on lie detector evidence. It's an indication that further enquiries are needed.
Posted by: Dave, Brighton on 1:07pm Mon 12 May 08
John,
Yep - but it still delays the payment till the office gets round to "further enquiries" - these systems rarely save more than they cost, we are talking about less than £1 per person to fraud - yet the impact to a real claiment of a delayed payment could mean no food and eviction - to save £1 - madness - the world is being run according to the Daily Mail.
John,
Yep - but it still delays the payment till the office gets round to "further enquiries" - these systems rarely save more than they cost, we are talking about less than £1 per person to fraud - yet the impact to a real claiment of a delayed payment could mean no food and eviction - to save £1 - madness - the world is being run according to the Daily Mail.
Posted by: Rev Ponge, brighton on 1:38pm Mon 12 May 08
They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton
They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton
Posted by: Anthony Blare on 1:53pm Mon 12 May 08
This has to be the most sensible idea any council has come up with for years and I also believe that lie detectors should be used every time a politician speaks, just imagine what would happen if it was used on any of the Tory MPs, everyone would have to run for cover because it would explode like a bomb that’s for sure.
This has to be the most sensible idea any council has come up with for years and I also believe that lie detectors should be used every time a politician speaks, just imagine what would happen if it was used on any of the Tory MPs, everyone would have to run for cover because it would explode like a bomb that’s for sure.
Posted by: Glyn on 2:10pm Mon 12 May 08
I notice that once again it's the people at the lower end of the social scale who are getting the dirty end of the stick. Wouldn't it be more profitable to have the corporate tax returns of multi-billion pound companies given under a truth drug? (or perhaps the answers at Prime Minister's question time?)
I notice that once again it's the people at the lower end of the social scale who are getting the dirty end of the stick. Wouldn't it be more profitable to have the corporate tax returns of multi-billion pound companies given under a truth drug? (or perhaps the answers at Prime Minister's question time?)
Posted by: winkywonky, Brighton on 2:12pm Mon 12 May 08
These machines are just a wind up. even a full polygraph with an expert is not admisable in any court of law in the UK.
It is probably against the law to record someone without their permission and against their human rights. Put the MP's on it and ask if they have ever fiddled their expenses.
These machines are just a wind up. even a full polygraph with an expert is not admisable in any court of law in the UK.
It is probably against the law to record someone without their permission and against their human rights. Put the MP's on it and ask if they have ever fiddled their expenses.
Posted by: legs11, Brighton on 2:32pm Mon 12 May 08
Surely waterboarding is cheaper and more effective!!
Surely waterboarding is cheaper and more effective!!
Posted by: Alfred Pubis, Haywards Heath on 4:07pm Mon 12 May 08
On a recent trip abroad, I couldn't fail but notice that the speed ramps were 'upside down'. Instead of a bump of concrete on the road there was a long groove.
I can tell you for a fact that it was just as effective as the traditional British speed ramp, whilst also saving on expensive concrete, which must surely contribute to global in some way, I imagine.
Isn't this the kind of outside-the-box forward-thinking attitude our councils need to take onboard if we're going to save the world?
Honestly, I ask you. I really do.
On a recent trip abroad, I couldn't fail but notice that the speed ramps were 'upside down'. Instead of a bump of concrete on the road there was a long groove.
I can tell you for a fact that it was just as effective as the traditional British speed ramp, whilst also saving on expensive concrete, which must surely contribute to global in some way, I imagine.
Isn't this the kind of outside-the-box forward-thinking attitude our councils need to take onboard if we're going to save the world?
Honestly, I ask you. I really do.
Posted by: Barry Gobbs, Shoreham on 4:50pm Mon 12 May 08
Regardless of whether it works or not, I can't see how anyone can morally justify this Big Brother style snooping on phonecalls.
What's next on the agenda? Spot walking ability checks on disabled people in the street. Just take their crutches and wheelchairs away in case they're just pretending?
Regardless of whether it works or not, I can't see how anyone can morally justify this Big Brother style snooping on phonecalls.
What's next on the agenda? Spot walking ability checks on disabled people in the street. Just take their crutches and wheelchairs away in case they're just pretending?
Posted by: boxkicker, hove on 5:44pm Mon 12 May 08
Nothing to hide? Nothing to worry about!
Nothing to hide? Nothing to worry about!
Posted by: Flat Foot Soozie, Brunswick Square on 6:34pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]boxkicker[/bold] wrote:
Nothing to hide? Nothing to worry about![/quote] no wonder you are a laughing stock.with comments like that.
boxkicker wrote:
Nothing to hide? Nothing to worry about!
no wonder you are a laughing stock.with comments like that.
Posted by: norm, worthing on 6:41pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Flat Foot Soozie[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]boxkicker[/bold] wrote: Nothing to hide? Nothing to worry about![/quote] no wonder you are a laughing stock.with comments like that.[/quote] Its true!
No one is going to get busted because a computer flashes up a risk, read the story you muppet, it is used to identify people who might be cheating, then further investigations are used to identify those cheats that are ripiing off tax payers.
Flat Foot Soozie wrote:
boxkicker wrote: Nothing to hide? Nothing to worry about!
no wonder you are a laughing stock.with comments like that.
Its true!
No one is going to get busted because a computer flashes up a risk, read the story you muppet, it is used to identify people who might be cheating, then further investigations are used to identify those cheats that are ripiing off tax payers.
Posted by: CLAIRE, U.K on 7:04pm Mon 12 May 08
i will never give my telephone number to the council if they need more information from me there can post out the details but will never call them or give them my number landline or mobile
i will never give my telephone number to the council if they need more information from me there can post out the details but will never call them or give them my number landline or mobile
Posted by: bobby bigballs, Brighton on 7:46pm Mon 12 May 08
If you've nothing to hide then why not take the test, although I do agree that some people are naturaly nervous and then again some people are out and out liers and would probably get away with it.
If you've nothing to hide then why not take the test, although I do agree that some people are naturaly nervous and then again some people are out and out liers and would probably get away with it.
Posted by: skippy, bush on 8:21pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Glyn[/bold] wrote:
I notice that once again it's the people at the lower end of the social scale who are getting the dirty end of the stick. Wouldn't it be more profitable to have the corporate tax returns of multi-billion pound companies given under a truth drug? (or perhaps the answers at Prime Minister's question time?)[/quote] what Glyn said.
Doing this is where we'd find more fiddled money than anywhere else ..it'd probably run into the trillions if done thoroughly and properly.
Stick farmers+landowners onto the list as well ..not all,but some of those selfish moneygrabbing murderous miserable lot are getting all kinds of money by telling porkies and being sly.
Its only fair if its used on all areas where public money is concerned!!
Glyn wrote:
I notice that once again it's the people at the lower end of the social scale who are getting the dirty end of the stick. Wouldn't it be more profitable to have the corporate tax returns of multi-billion pound companies given under a truth drug? (or perhaps the answers at Prime Minister's question time?)
what Glyn said.
Doing this is where we'd find more fiddled money than anywhere else ..it'd probably run into the trillions if done thoroughly and properly.
Stick farmers+landowners onto the list as well ..not all,but some of those selfish moneygrabbing murderous miserable lot are getting all kinds of money by telling porkies and being sly.
Its only fair if its used on all areas where public money is concerned!!
Posted by: william of orange, Brighton on 8:28pm Mon 12 May 08
Can we use it on Alistair Darling?
Especially when he quotes the next monthly inflation figure!
Can we use it on Alistair Darling?
Especially when he quotes the next monthly inflation figure!
Posted by: me, east brighton on 8:35pm Mon 12 May 08
[quote][bold]Rev Ponge[/bold] wrote:
They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton[/quote] what an idiot.get a life.
Rev Ponge wrote:
They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton
what an idiot.get a life.
Posted by: lockemup, Brighton on 11:00am Tue 13 May 08
[quote][bold]me[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Rev Ponge[/bold] wrote: They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton[/quote] what an idiot.get a life. [/quote] Sensible observation I thought...
Mind you, they'll need 2 in Hollingdean as well, judging by the number of people that I know of that draw benefit and work.
me wrote:
Rev Ponge wrote: They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton
what an idiot.get a life.
Sensible observation I thought...
Mind you, they'll need 2 in Hollingdean as well, judging by the number of people that I know of that draw benefit and work.
Posted by: p***ed off, brighton on 11:06am Tue 13 May 08
[quote][bold]Rev Ponge[/bold] wrote:
They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton[/quote] so only east brighton is on benefits then amazing!!! i thought i saw a little article in the paper about benefit fraud in hove...so it shows that it goes on everywhere...and no i do actually work thanx
Rev Ponge wrote:
They will need more than one machine to target one area of East Brighton
so only east brighton is on benefits then amazing!!! i thought i saw a little article in the paper about benefit fraud in hove...so it shows that it goes on everywhere...and no i do actually work thanx
Posted by: legs11, Brighton on 4:02pm Tue 13 May 08
Don't waste it on benifit cheats there is too little return for the expense incurred(costs about £8 to recover £1) use it on ALL the self-employed and anyone that submits a tax return especially ones using expensive accountants!! There is more lying going on and a much greater chance of a decent return!!
Don't waste it on benifit cheats there is too little return for the expense incurred(costs about £8 to recover £1) use it on ALL the self-employed and anyone that submits a tax return especially ones using expensive accountants!! There is more lying going on and a much greater chance of a decent return!!
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