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Credit crunch puts King Alfred in doubt
7:38am Wednesday 2nd July 2008
Comments (83)The future of the controversial King Alfred redevelopment was thrown into doubt last night.
Josh Arghiros, managing director of developer Karis, said the financial viability of the scheme was looking "very shaky" because of falling house prices.
A review of the scheme is being undertaken by Karis and the Dutch bank ING, the scheme's financial backer, and is expected to conclude in the next three weeks.
The possible collapse of the project follows the redevelopment of Brighton Marina being put on hold because of the worsening economy. Last night Mr Arghiros revealed ING had yet to decide whether it would press ahead with the scheme.
He said: "The financial viability, as with every major project in the country, is looking very shaky.
"Karis is committed to moving forward with this project. ING needs to make its decision about what it is going to do, and the decision is to be made jointly. As far as Karis is concerned the project will happen, whether it is the project as it is or not. I believe there is no reason why the sports centre cannot remain as part of the scheme - it is integral to it."
The £290 million Hove seafront development is the latest in a series of major projects in Brighton and Hove to be hit by the economic downturn. Profit margins are being squeezed by falling house prices, while uncertainty about the future course of markets has made financiers more wary of embarking on major building programmes.
The King Alfred scheme, which was given planning permission last March last year, comprises 751 homes in 11 buildings, including two towers up to 98 metres high.
A £49 million sports centre, small shops, a police office, a GP surgery, cafes, restaurants and public spaces are planned. Tony Mernagh, executive director of Brighton and Hove Economic Forum, said: "Every single major project in the country is under review and it is quite responsible for a developer to review its scheme in the current economic conditions.
"We do need to get a major development through to keep that momentum going if we don't want to be a city that dreams a lot but doesn't get anything through."
The £235 million redevelopment of Brighton Marina came under review earlier this year because of troubles in the housing market.
Brunswick Development's project at the marina includes 853 flats, some within a 40-storey tower, as well as leisure and shopping space. The i360 tower has been delayed because of market jitters, and plans to build an Olympic ice rink and concert venue at Black Rock, Brighton, have been set back because of difficulties in finding a financial backer. These schemes are making progress again.
Building work on the controversial King Alfred project had been predicted to start next February. It is not yet known what effect the review will have on the construction programme.
The news comes as the King Alfred's world renowned architect, Frank Gehry, said gaining planning permission for the £290 million development was a "painful process" and the difficulties had put other developers off using his services in Britain.
Asked about the Hove seafront development, Mr Gehry said: "Don't go there - it was a painful experience.
"I guess I never did understand your planning system and all those interfering government design advisers."
Your Say YourArgus
Valerie Paynter, saveHOVE, Hove says...
10:01pm Tue 1 Jul 08
The remaining comments from Frank Gehry most probably come from his being stung by CABE at the meeting he was summonsed to on January 20, 2006. He was told to redesign the perimeter blocks and wild things up a bit. He had Piers Gough as his interpreter of the planning system but he prefers to make it up as he goes along using an organic sculptural approach. The restraints of planning were a straitjacket to him. These comments are historical and not new from Frank Gehry
mad green, Central Hove says...
10:13pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Rumour has it that Karis is now in bed with the Council Conservatives.
Lots of friendly socialising together.
Mel, Hove says...
10:14pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Rob, Hove says...
10:19pm Tue 1 Jul 08
sam tyler, hove says...
10:27pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
10:28pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Black Rock, the Marina, KA, The Brighton Centre, Falmer Stadium etc. should have been finished years ago except we have got far too many people that are willing to stand in the way of progression for the sake of some self-importance.
fred, over the border in Brighton says...
10:51pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Happy Shopper, In the pub says...
11:10pm Tue 1 Jul 08
What happened to the development being good for the area... essential housing needed.....stunning for the city?? Soon as the cash is not there for the developers to make loads of it, they are off. These people are not interested in the area or improving the look of Hove, just interested in making cash at the expense of quality of life for all. The people who believed the f***wits who said they were doing it for the benefit of all are also idiots too. Best news today I think. Tins can Towers idea all gone rusty!!
paul, brighton says...
11:43pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Most of the people of Brighton and Hove are here for life - and may have kids who may be here for generations to come.
If the development was founded on temporary market conditions then it should never have got this far.
Such a development has to be a multi-decade proposition, temporary market conditions should be irrelevant - it they aren't then the whole proposition is flawed.
Big Cheese, Peacehaven says...
11:45pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Valerie Paynter, saveHOVE wrote:It seems to me that Jonathan Glancy, a highly regarded expert writer on architecture, is not in the habit of making "throwaway" remarks. He would not be in demand if he did so. It's arrogant of Valerie Paynter to say that he does so. What are her credentials?
Big Cheese is wrong. Guardian writer, Jonathan Glancy, said \"This, by the way, has come to nothing\". A throwaway remark, understandable given the lack of current action.
The remaining comments from Frank Gehry most probably come from his being stung by CABE at the meeting he was summonsed to on January 20, 2006. He was told to redesign the perimeter blocks and wild things up a bit. He had Piers Gough as his interpreter of the planning system but he prefers to make it up as he goes along using an organic sculptural approach. The restraints of planning were a straitjacket to him. These comments are historical and not new from Frank Gehry
Glancy's comment was no doubt based upon more talk with Frank Gehry than he could include in a piece which was about much more than Hove.
If the King Alfred were going ahead, then its name architect would not publicly have said that he has washed his hands of it.
He has had enough, and so Brighton Council can no longer play the Gehry card .
But don't get me wrong. I like Gehry. What would he make of Peacehaven? Come up, Frank, let's see what you make of life a few miles along the A259! The Pacific Ocean Highway of the South East.
Tim, Hove says...
12:04am Wed 2 Jul 08
penny, pavilion says...
12:23am Wed 2 Jul 08
Valerie Paynter, saveHOVE, Hove says...
12:58am Wed 2 Jul 08
It was never a project suited to him. Never. Take a bow Piers Gough for your role in the fiasco.
And Big Cheese, look at October 5, 2006 Minutes for Policy & Resources Committee on the Council website to read how the Council agreed to help pay for the development if finances got sticky.
Then remember the recent words of the new Council Leader, Cllr Mary Mears: "We have to make this work".
Add 2 + 2 and start worrying about ING knocking on the council doors to collect on the 2006 promise to contribute to costs, now finances have got so sticky.
Hopefully they won't. Hopefully, China and the middle east, dripping with money they want to spend on development, will divert the ING bankers to the promise of quicker and bigger profits elsewhere.
The Guardian piece is not evidence this is happening.
But Jonathan Glancy is worth a read anytime, especially on a Friday online at Building Design.
beryl, hove says...
1:07am Wed 2 Jul 08
mark, brighton says...
8:00am Wed 2 Jul 08
Shirley, hove says...
8:12am Wed 2 Jul 08
Grumps, LANCING says...
8:51am Wed 2 Jul 08
Does this mean that the Council can now sue the developers for breaching those contracts?
tim, bored of the argument says...
9:12am Wed 2 Jul 08
Has anyone ever noticed that Hove has the most mind numbingly boring architecture from 1950 onwards ? I bet most of these anti development whingers live in dull Stalinist concrete blocks.
hanoverian, Brighton says...
9:41am Wed 2 Jul 08
matty, brighton says...
10:22am Wed 2 Jul 08
dark_badger, says...
11:28am Wed 2 Jul 08
matty, brighton says...
11:37am Wed 2 Jul 08
What i think your implying is because i said good luck to the man that it cannot be a genuine comment? Just beacuse we don't all have the same view's on society or on a certain person does NOT mean that there not genuine, you must have a very small and narrow outlook torwards things. Good luck stroller think you may need it in your life...........
John Smith, Brighton says...
11:38am Wed 2 Jul 08
mad green wrote:Get your facts right.
Why didn't the Central Hove Tories Older and Younger do more to stop this? As they promised in the election? They took our votes and then did nothing. Now they'll try and take credit for it, when we all know its the credit crunch who saw this up. Rumour has it that Karis is now in bed with the Council Conservatives. Lots of friendly socialising together.
One Week before the Council elections a meeting was held by Labour who railroaded planning and signed the necessary making it impossible for the new council to renage.It was a deal done by labour literally days before the election which they knew they were going to lose.
Stroller, Hove says...
11:51am Wed 2 Jul 08
John Smith wrote:The Conservatives secretly agreed to that planning meeting being held when it was as it meant that they would have an excuse for not fulfilling their promise to cancel the King Alfred scheme if/when they took charge.
mad green wrote:Get your facts right.
Why didn't the Central Hove Tories Older and Younger do more to stop this? As they promised in the election? They took our votes and then did nothing. Now they'll try and take credit for it, when we all know its the credit crunch who saw this up. Rumour has it that Karis is now in bed with the Council Conservatives. Lots of friendly socialising together.
One Week before the Council elections a meeting was held by Labour who railroaded planning and signed the necessary making it impossible for the new council to renage.It was a deal done by labour literally days before the election which they knew they were going to lose.
Johnno, Hove says...
1:03pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Albert, Square says...
1:10pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Big Cheese, Peacehaven says...
1:19pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Johnno wrote:All that is needed is a sports centre. They have sports centres in Crawley and Burgess Hill.
So, Mr Arghiros believes \"there is no reason why the sports centre cannot remain as part of the scheme\" ... I was under the impression that the sports centre was a non-negotiable, the first part of the scheme to be built ... or does Mr Arghiros know something that we do not?!
Jolie, hove says...
1:33pm Wed 2 Jul 08
We just want Nick Cave revivals at the perfectly functional King Alfred Leisure centre. Some where nice warm healthy and looked after to take our children.
Maybe the council will start to look after their facilities rather than chasing the new and exciting headlines.
Eco Man, Kemp Town says...
1:56pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Nick, sussex says...
1:56pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Anthony, Hove says...
2:01pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Smiffy, Brighton says...
2:05pm Wed 2 Jul 08
beryl wrote:What a load of rubbish, by the time this monster is built, global oil output would have dropped to about 60 million barrels per day causing global economic depression.
this project will take years to build, by house prices will be on the rise and much higher than now. once the credit crunch settles mortgages will be back to normal and all those thousands of people and new immigrants wishing to move would have built up to a crescendo pushing prices back up.
Nothing is going back to normal ever again!
Sassy, brighton says...
2:11pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Smiffy wrote:Precisely - unless anyone can ask the Chinese and India to pretty please not use so much oil, and not to have their turn at global domination. The years of easy living are over r.e. oil and food. Welcome to reality. Oh, and don't for goodness sake buy a house ;)
beryl wrote:What a load of rubbish, by the time this monster is built, global oil output would have dropped to about 60 million barrels per day causing global economic depression.
this project will take years to build, by house prices will be on the rise and much higher than now. once the credit crunch settles mortgages will be back to normal and all those thousands of people and new immigrants wishing to move would have built up to a crescendo pushing prices back up.
Nothing is going back to normal ever again!
mad green, Central Hove says...
3:11pm Wed 2 Jul 08
John Smith wrote:Ah but the Tories stood in the local elections on a platform of defeating the kING Alfred. We trusted them to sort this emss out.
mad green wrote: Why didn't the Central Hove Tories Older and Younger do more to stop this? As they promised in the election? They took our votes and then did nothing. Now they'll try and take credit for it, when we all know its the credit crunch who saw this up. Rumour has it that Karis is now in bed with the Council Conservatives. Lots of friendly socialising together.Get your facts right. One Week before the Council elections a meeting was held by Labour who railroaded planning and signed the necessary making it impossible for the new council to renage.It was a deal done by labour literally days before the election which they knew they were going to lose.
Instead it seems they were in it all the way.
Is there such a thing as a re-call election as they have in the US? We want our votes back as we've been cheated by Older and Younger? Let's recall them and get some decent hard working Green Councillors instead.
Johnno, Hove says...
3:36pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Big Cheese wrote:Yes, I agree! But is Mr Arghiros suggesting that the development might be allowed to go ahead WITHOUT the sports centre? That's what we might infer from his comment. This would be against everything that we have been assured by the Council from the start.
Johnno wrote:All that is needed is a sports centre. They have sports centres in Crawley and Burgess Hill.
So, Mr Arghiros believes \\\\\\\"there is no reason why the sports centre cannot remain as part of the scheme\\\\\\\" ... I was under the impression that the sports centre was a non-negotiable, the first part of the scheme to be built ... or does Mr Arghiros know something that we do not?!
shamen, hove says...
3:37pm Wed 2 Jul 08
most residents are optimistic about the economy and although oil may well run low, there are alternatives you know, we live in the 21st century.
the world could not survive without an economy based around money and trade and people always need somewhere to live and in a nice place, so this is another 90s blip, look what happened once it was over, now is the best time to buy a house, thats what the smart people do to make money.
Ken Smith, Hove says...
4:08pm Wed 2 Jul 08
sam tyler, ka ballroom says...
4:12pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Flat Foot Soozie, Brunswick Square says...
4:30pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Dennis, Hove says...
4:50pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
4:53pm Wed 2 Jul 08
What are your suggestions for the KA site, Valerie?
Sam, Brighton & Hove says...
5:03pm Wed 2 Jul 08
tim wrote:Unfortunately Tim, you're probably right, can you imagine the whingers that moaned about the Regency squares being built when it was a still a fishing village, and the audacity of the Prince Regent moving his party friends down here which let's face it basically created Brighton as we know it?
A couple of years ago, Brighton-Hove was the most in demand "city" in the country wet at the thought of Brad & Angelina moving in. Has anyone ever noticed that Hove has the most mind numbingly boring architecture from 1950 onwards ? I bet most of these anti development whingers live in dull Stalinist concrete blocks.
The Gehry development is on the same scale in it's impact on the desirability of Brighton, albeit a few people may not like it, I personally love Brighton and want to see it develop, not stagnate as some 200 yr old architecture past-it city!
These moaners should face up to the fact that change is ineviteable, and thank god for it, otherwise we'd all still be living in caves and tilling the fields. Wake up you stupid nimbys, and stop oppressing everybody else.
Blair, hove says...
5:27pm Wed 2 Jul 08
shamen wrote:Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit you know! Still very funny though thanks.. :)
I have never heard so much ill informed drivel from people with regards to the economy.
most residents are optimistic about the economy and although oil may well run low, there are alternatives you know, we live in the 21st century.
the world could not survive without an economy based around money and trade and people always need somewhere to live and in a nice place, so this is another 90s blip, look what happened once it was over, now is the best time to buy a house, thats what the smart people do to make money.
ec, Brighton says...
5:34pm Wed 2 Jul 08
jerry, kingsway says...
6:11pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Eco Man wrote:The truth is Hove needs saving form her, not the other way round.
Paul wrote: Who is Valerie Paynter? Was she elected to 'save' Hove and what is she saving it from? What are your suggestions for the KA site, Valerie?I hear that she lives in Council premises even uglier than the Gehry/Gough design, near Hove station. Will she save Hove from the sight of her own home?
Great Day for Hove, Hove actually says...
6:48pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Katy, Hove says...
6:53pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Argus Reader, Brighton says...
6:57pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Goodie, Hove says...
6:59pm Wed 2 Jul 08
sam tyler, ka ballroom says...
7:09pm Wed 2 Jul 08
mad green, says...
7:47pm Wed 2 Jul 08
sam tyler wrote:Hi Valerie, hope you are well.
Valerie Paynter has done a great deal for this 'city'and you bullies can fight amongst yourselves but this is great news for the people of hove,you seem the type who fought for the hove tesco with no thought other than for yourselves-the real people know what is going on here even frank gehry has said he is glad that he is no longer a part of the project,gormley too,piers gough drew up the ghetto blocks that the council offered to subsidise,now maybe they will refurbish and build some quality homes and a school for the 'city',,i'm off to see mr cave too celebrate todays happy news!
Paul, Brighton says...
7:56pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Katy wrote:From where I am sitting, she is wasting our time and council tax. Almost every single project that is proposed, seems to face objections from Paynter. An absurd level of self-importance springs to mind and nimbyism personified.
What a nasty lot some of you can be, at least Valerie Paynter is willing to get off her backside and actually try and change things that she believes are wrong for Brighton and Hove. If there were more people like her we wouldn't have to put up with being downtrodden by today's politicians who are only looking out for themselves. Roll on the day when we have honest and altruistic MP's.
No-one
Gentleman Jim, Brighton says...
7:57pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
8:00pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Thank god she sticks to Hove. We have enough trouble building things in Brighton with her sticking her oar in.
jo jo, brighton says...
8:12pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Big Cheese, Peacehaven says...
8:18pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
8:31pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Gentleman Jim wrote:Why is that? Falmer stadium does not include any housing of any sort.
Great news that the Micky Mouse development may never happen,but surely this confirms that Falmer is equally affected
jo jo, brighton says...
8:32pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Flat Foot Soozie, Brusnwick Square says...
8:50pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Paul wrote:Not yet!
Gentleman Jim wrote:Why is that? Falmer stadium does not include any housing of any sort.
Great news that the Micky Mouse development may never happen,but surely this confirms that Falmer is equally affected
Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
10:13pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Flat Foot Soozie wrote:Boooorrrring.
Paul wrote:Not yet!Gentleman Jim wrote: Great news that the Micky Mouse development may never happen,but surely this confirms that Falmer is equally affectedWhy is that? Falmer stadium does not include any housing of any sort.
william of orange, Brighton says...
11:22pm Wed 2 Jul 08
Flat Foot Soozie wrote:Falmer is dead in the water...has been for a while...I applaud the supporters optimism and their loyalty to the idea of a stadium but its time to face reality and move on.
Paul wrote:Not yet!Gentleman Jim wrote: Great news that the Micky Mouse development may never happen,but surely this confirms that Falmer is equally affectedWhy is that? Falmer stadium does not include any housing of any sort.
Large construction projects built on the back of borrowed money are a thing of the past...a thing to remember the Labour boom years by...but busts always follow booms and now its bust time! Things are about to get worse and worse.....
Big Cheese, Peacehaven says...
9:53pm Tue 1 Jul 08
Frank Gehry has said in today's Guardian that it is not going to happen. He was led a merry dance by government bodies wanting it taller and wider.
If the Council had been content simply to build a swimming pool, it could have been done years ago.