Extra carriages for Southern rail travellers (From The Argus)
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Extra carriages for Southern rail travellers
2:43pm Saturday 17th November 2012 in News By Ben Leo, reporter
Extra carriages for Southern rail travellers
Rail passengers in Sussex have been told they can expect more than 250 newtrain carriages and more frequent services from 2014.
Southern Rail has announced multimillion pound plans to purchase up to 40 new Electrostar train carriages – pending approval from the Department for Transport.
The new£60 million carriages will come from British train manufacturer Bombardier and will add to the 130 new carriages Southern bought at the end of last year.
It is also developing separate proposals with the Government to purchase a further 116 carriages, with the option of buying a further 100 after that.
The company, which is the main operator in Sussex, says it will receive the new carriages in 2014 but it does not know exactly where they will be deployed.
Chris Hudson, spokesman for Southern Rail, said: “The new carriages will be in full operation by December 2014, but it has not yet been decided where.
“They will mean an increased number of services for our passengers and more seating capacity across the network.”
Investment welcomed
Bruce Williamson, spokesman for rail passenger campaigners Railfuture, said there was a desperate need for new rolling stock and they welcomed any investment in rail services.
He added: “This is obviously good news. But one word of caution would be that the Government is often accused of double counting.
“We would like to see how these plans fit in with previous announcements of new rolling stock.
“Bombardier is the last remaining British manufacturer of trains in the UKso we applaud that Southern Rail are buying internally.”
It is hoped the new carriages will be deployed in Sussex to help ease congestion on the busy Brighton to London route.
Campaigners are currently calling for a second Brighton to London mainline to be built and say it is the only solution to overcrowded trains.
The service is currently used by around 8,000 commuters from Brighton each day.
Chris Burchell, Southern Rail managing director, said: “I am pleased that Southern is able to assist the Department in introducing additional capacity.
“The potential new order for 116 carriages will be exciting news for train manufacturers and for passengers.”
Comments(36)
lindzimak
says...
3:15pm Sat 17 Nov 12
The Heretic
says...
3:29pm Sat 17 Nov 12
I'd also agree with lindzimak, with the obvious proviso that the line between Ore and Ashford gets electrified. With that, plus BML2, Southern could dispense with non-standard diesel trains.
menton
says...
4:00pm Sat 17 Nov 12
moonster
says...
4:51pm Sat 17 Nov 12
First capital connect new train contract is still yet to be signed and them and southern rail are due to merge in next few years in to a new franchise and could be under a new operator. So all change ahead. .
ghost bus driver
says...
5:07pm Sat 17 Nov 12
The Heretic wrote:Yes absolutely. The other week after that poor person got hit at Gatwick, I ended up having to get an East Grinstead train from Victoria, then a FCC one to brighton from there. Both were standing room only and very very late. If BML2 had been there I could have stayed on the East Grinstead one and changed at Oxted, then got another train via Uckfield to either Lewes and changed, or straight to Brighton had the line been open. And I caught a cold off one of the commuters. So yes I absolutely and unequivocally support BML2.
Any increase in capacity has to be welcome news for the poor old commuter. Not sure where to deploy the new stock? Without the extra infrastructure capacity of BML2, my guess is they'll get deployed at red signals all the way up the Brighton Mainline with monotonous regularity !!
I'd also agree with lindzimak, with the obvious proviso that the line between Ore and Ashford gets electrified. With that, plus BML2, Southern could dispense with non-standard diesel trains.
sbiscorrupt
says...
5:36pm Sat 17 Nov 12
bill porter
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6:56pm Sat 17 Nov 12
All it gives you (apart from a white elephant as studies have repeatedly shown it is not viable) is an alternative route when there are engineering works.
The Heretic
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7:43pm Sat 17 Nov 12
bill porter wrote:BML2 does address the London end, and then some. See
BML2 is not the answer as the capacity issue is at the London end and that won't change with a link from Lewes to Uckfield.
All it gives you (apart from a white elephant as studies have repeatedly shown it is not viable) is an alternative route when there are engineering works.
http://www.bml2.co.u
k/
for full details of the scheme. No current DfT plans are looking to predicted future network requirements (although they admit serious shortfalls in future capacity identified by Network Rail), and still look at London as having the same focii as pre-docklands and pre-mass air travel. Passenger flows right now will tell you it just isn't so any more, and infrastructure investment has to reflect the reality of today's - and tomorrow's - transport needs.
BML2 improves cross-London connections from Kent and East Anglia as well as Sussex, allows vastly better use of airport capacity in the south-east, and would remove the need for mllions of journeys changing on/off the overcrowded London tube and bus network. Costed solely against Sussex and viewed as just a relief line, the costs (of the entire project) would be unrealistic (although the Sussex phase is a fraction of the total cost, and do-able, especially in light of improvements now underway at London Bridge), but the scheme benefits the whole south-east, a catchment of over 7 million ( taking only E & SE London boroughs into account rather than the whole GLA) in the most congested part of the UK.
The studies referred to (Network Rail 2008) are now questioned, in an Argus article, by none other than Junior Transport Minister, Norman Baker MP, and by others. The data on which conclusions were based in 2008 was at best incomplete. Mr Baker now identifies that study as flawed, and is of the opinion that a sound case exits now for re-instating the Uckfield-Lewes line as a local service. Maybe he's right, although it would do precious little to solve Brighton's problems and be a wasted opportunity, maybe even a white elephant, but as part of BML2 it would be infinitely more useful to the region as a whole.
Papa Lazarou 1
says...
8:12pm Sat 17 Nov 12
HJarrs
says...
9:05pm Sat 17 Nov 12
We should lobby, Southern, councils and MPs to press for some of the additional carriages to be used on the coast lines.
Locally, this could go hand in hand with the changes on the Lewes Rd corridor and provide many, if perhaps not all, with an alternative to the private car.
Broken Robot
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10:33pm Sat 17 Nov 12
farang
says...
12:35am Sun 18 Nov 12
Other than that a separate high speed service - and reduce the ridiculously overpriced fares!
The overall problem is the lack of foresight in capacity building.
puddings3112
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1:11am Sun 18 Nov 12
As well as BML2, the current BML needs its signal system upgraded to allow more trains to be run (one of the biggest issues currently is the unreliability of signalling between Haywards Heath and Gatwick), better use of the quad lines north of Balcombe tunnel so that non stop trains can pass stopping trains and a review of the speed limit to shorten the journey time although the introduction of overhead lines rather than the obsolete third rail would be preferable - high train speeds and a reduction in the issues caused by running a contact plate
whereisthe...?
says...
7:26am Sun 18 Nov 12
ruberducker
says...
9:04am Sun 18 Nov 12
farang
says...
9:23am Sun 18 Nov 12
The Heretic
says...
9:57am Sun 18 Nov 12
Double deck trains have their own drawbacks. They take much longer to load/unload at stations in peak times as Mr Bulleid discovered (yes - they were tried) and they reduce headroom to what you might find on the top deck of a bus (that's the modern kit you find across Europe). You'll still have some standing passengers in rush hour.
The Brighton Line always comes down to insufficient infrastructure. The short sighted decisions to shut the Steyning (Beeching/MoT '66) and Uckfield - Lewes (BR/ESCC '69) lines were contoversial at the time, and we've been living with the consequences ever since. The longer the situation is allowed to go on, the costlier it will be to solve.
Sooner or later (Network Rail estimate 2029), the Brighton line will be at bursting point. Everything that can be done to increase capacity will have been done, and it still won't be enough. Many think it will be much sooner than that and no large infrastructure project happpens overnight.
ruberducker
says...
10:25am Sun 18 Nov 12
farang wrote:xenophobia is the correct spelling.
xenophobe alert!
as a brightonian"thats born and bred to you"we accept anybody here regardless of colour,race,religion
,or sexual habbit's.even mp's that come here to ruin our"town".it was a ritorical reply since the majority of our population are from london.
Wiggsy
says...
11:17am Sun 18 Nov 12
The Heretic wrote:"Sooner or later (Network Rail estimate 2029), the Brighton line will be at bursting point. Everything that can be done to increase capacity will have been done, and it still won't be enough. Many think it will be much sooner than that and no large infrastructure project happpens overnight"
puddings3112 makes some good points, unfortunately, the line especially between Preston Park and, well everywhere north of there, is SO busy that Network Rail concluded even 'in cab' signalling could only produce marginal improvements to capacity. The four track section north of Balcombe could work better, but you're looking at some serious investment at Three Bridges and on to the Quarry Line to make it happen. Overhead electrification? Yes please, but can you imagine the chaos changing over if we've still just go the one line from London?
Double deck trains have their own drawbacks. They take much longer to load/unload at stations in peak times as Mr Bulleid discovered (yes - they were tried) and they reduce headroom to what you might find on the top deck of a bus (that's the modern kit you find across Europe). You'll still have some standing passengers in rush hour.
The Brighton Line always comes down to insufficient infrastructure. The short sighted decisions to shut the Steyning (Beeching/MoT '66) and Uckfield - Lewes (BR/ESCC '69) lines were contoversial at the time, and we've been living with the consequences ever since. The longer the situation is allowed to go on, the costlier it will be to solve.
Sooner or later (Network Rail estimate 2029), the Brighton line will be at bursting point. Everything that can be done to increase capacity will have been done, and it still won't be enough. Many think it will be much sooner than that and no large infrastructure project happpens overnight.
Whilst requiring significant cost and development, double decker trains are surely the only way such increases to commuter traffic can accomodated.
The Heretic
says...
12:22pm Sun 18 Nov 12
Regarding the Brighton line, the lack of a second route is the key element in the vulnerability of our services to London (which dwarfs passenger numbers on both Coastway routes combined). Issues likely to close a two track line are just as likely to close a four track line. The spend needed to quadruple the line south of Three Bridges would be huge, never mind the controversy of compulsory purchases needed in urban areas, and yet still leave us just as vulnerable to disruption. Additionally, it would do nothing to address capacity problems at East Croydon, or provide additional train paths north of Three Bridges. Both key points identified by Network Rail.
The plain facts are that the current attenuated network is insufficient to requirements now, never mind in 15 years time. BML2, as others have pointed out, solves capacity issues on the Tunbridge Wells to London route also, which can never be the case as long as the Brighton Line is viewed in isolation. The London phase will alleviate capacity problems on lines from Kent and drastically improve matters for passengers from East Surrey and South London by providing more and better paths for services. Even Thameslink which, as things stand, relies on a two-track tunnel at Blackfriars - a single route which always causes chaos when unavailable - is vulnerable without the redundancy BML2 would add into the wider network. Effectively the same issue as the Brighton Line alone, except with three critical pinch points instead of none with BML2.
The problems on the rail network in the south-east are larger than just the Brighton Line, but while a solution is being sought for problems here, it makes sense to address not only the wider area, but to look at readily identifieable future requirements.
HJarrs
says...
12:31pm Sun 18 Nov 12
The Heretic
says...
12:48pm Sun 18 Nov 12
HJarrs wrote:Except there are already two or more routes to major destinations along HS2. We don't have that luxury here, but you're spot on about the disruption.
To make major change to BML would result in a lot of disruption for a long time. BML2 could be built without causing disruption to BML while freeing up capacity currenlty taken up by trains from the Lewes direction. A similar reasoning is the big sell for HS2 I notice.
The same consideration will apply if a decision gets made to switch from dc third rail to ac overhead. Without a second route to London, it would be hell on wheels on rail (and the roads) for months on end.
ghost bus driver
says...
1:34pm Sun 18 Nov 12
bill porter wrote:It IS viable. They just don;t want to admit it, that's why they threw the studies.
BML2 is not the answer as the capacity issue is at the London end and that won't change with a link from Lewes to Uckfield.
All it gives you (apart from a white elephant as studies have repeatedly shown it is not viable) is an alternative route when there are engineering works.
Mark the cab
says...
2:30pm Sun 18 Nov 12
This would cut 20 min off diverted trains when Btn mainline blocked.
Ted-Kelly1
says...
4:27pm Sun 18 Nov 12
The Heretic
says...
4:32pm Sun 18 Nov 12
Mark the cab wrote:There's more to be said for this idea than for some others, but 20mins shaved off reversal at Nohampton still leaves a pretty unattractive jouney time, I've had to do this trip a few times after the dreaded rail replacement buses come off for the night. Lovely in daylight if you're not in a hurry, tedious when you are or after dark. Plus it still gives train operators headaches with staff and stock in the wrong place. Add to this that the Arun Valley line isn't the fastest, and other than Sundays, paths on the Coastway would be an insurmountable issue, so in reality, you're looking at something fairly unworkable. It also doesn't address identified traffic growth which simply cannot be ignored forever, as much as the DfT would like to pretend it can.
Why don't they put a spur in between Angmering & Arundel at least it could take traffic from Worthing & if engineering problems would save reversing out of Littlehampton .
This would cut 20 min off diverted trains when Btn mainline blocked.
martyt
says...
4:47pm Sun 18 Nov 12
farang
says...
5:17pm Sun 18 Nov 12
Infrastructure itself provides long-ish term employment and ongoing opportunities because of the gateway effect, and then at the end of the project you have a better infrastructure.
martyt
says...
6:57pm Sun 18 Nov 12
farang wrote:see i have one person thinking about it already ,my point is re travel is why spend 4/5 k a years getting to work and 2 too 3 hours a day going to work when if you invest in local jobs people would need 6/7k a year less just to stand still that s not counting the hours saved in travelling too and from work
How do you invest in local jobs? The truth of that option is the almost impossible task of identifying a cost/benefit ratio (analysis)
Infrastructure itself provides long-ish term employment and ongoing opportunities because of the gateway effect, and then at the end of the project you have a better infrastructure.
ghost bus driver
says...
8:01pm Sun 18 Nov 12
bluemonday
says...
7:31am Mon 19 Nov 12
menton wrote:bombardier build trains in derby,so it is a british manufacturer,just not british owned.
Just one little point, Bombardier is NOT British. It is Canadian. Black marks to the Argus and to Railfuture.
martyt
says...
9:10am Mon 19 Nov 12
bluemonday wrote:but bluemonday were do they pay there taxes ?
menton wrote:bombardier build trains in derby,so it is a british manufacturer,just not british owned.
Just one little point, Bombardier is NOT British. It is Canadian. Black marks to the Argus and to Railfuture.
The Heretic
says...
10:37am Mon 19 Nov 12
As to fares, one of the reasons they are so high is the DfT's policy of selective pricing to deter travel on crowded services. Remember the annual round of price rises for tickets? Remember earlier in the year a proposal to hike fares even higher to 'solve' overcrowding?
Get the second route open, and that excuse is gone, plus there will be an incentive for more economic investment and competetive off-peak pricing. Reliable rail services aren't a luxury, they're a necessity.
farang
says...
1:36pm Mon 19 Nov 12
Ironically, in the early to mid '60s there was a huge advert in Charing Cross extolling the joys of living in Heathfield, because of the good rail connection! The line was axed in the late '60s!
Mind you the '50s tory gov't thought we'd all be flying around in helicopters by now so who knows what Cameron's dreaming of!
Papa Lazarou 1
says...
8:24pm Mon 19 Nov 12
martyt wrote:I think that the idea of BML2 whisking thousands of workers out of the city of Brighton & Hove is just part of the situation. Let's not forget the many thousands of people from the East Sussex hinterland of Wealden who choose to do their business and are employed in Brighton & Hove. These people add terrifically to the economic vibrancy of the city. They also add terrifically to the levels of congestion through the road routes via Lewes, as well as clogging up the many city centre car parks, which could be better utilised by retail customers & trippers! (if they don't come by train, that is!)
i would love to know who is going to use these train over the next few years as more and more people are priced out of travelling either by rail or road to work ,is it not time to invest in local jobs and stop paying thousands of pounds to get to work every year and taking even more money away from the city we all choose live in ?
rubberflipper says...
3:12pm Sat 17 Nov 12