Seven Dials roundabout row

The Argus: Campaigners at Seven Dials Campaigners at Seven Dials

Community campaigners are opposing town hall plans to revamp a roundabout.

Brighton and Hove City Council is currently asking people for their views on the Seven Dials junction, north-west of Brighton station.

The local authority believes steps can be taken to ease congestion and make it safer for pedestrians and road users.

But members of the Dials North West Community Association believe it will create extra traffic in neighbouring residential streets.

Millie Ferguson, of the group, said: “There is room for improvement at Seven Dials. But we do need to be concerned about the primary intention of the plans – turning the clock back 30 years, prior to any proper consideration of the affect this would have on the surrounding area.

“If we return to the old layout, we are surely faced with a recurrence of the old congestion problem and attempts to return the Dials to its present state will be tremendously difficult.”

To sign, visit www.brighton-hove.gov.uk.

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Comments (21)

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12:05pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Fresh air says...

Some members are unhappy with some elements of the scheme, but most members are happy with most elements of the scheme. It's not turning the clock back, it's using 30 years of knowledge to make Seven Dials safer for pedestrians and re-joining the parts that are currently divided by the roundabout.
Some members are unhappy with some elements of the scheme, but most members are happy with most elements of the scheme. It's not turning the clock back, it's using 30 years of knowledge to make Seven Dials safer for pedestrians and re-joining the parts that are currently divided by the roundabout. Fresh air

1:19pm Tue 20 Nov 12

B G Gruff says...

i doubt if anyone is happy with how it is at the moment. lets try something different
i doubt if anyone is happy with how it is at the moment. lets try something different B G Gruff

2:20pm Tue 20 Nov 12

StyleCop says...

I keep saying;

1. Reduce the speed limit to 20MPH on all approaches
2. Remove the railings
3. Paint a box junction on the entire junction
4. Change the traffic lights to stop all traffic on all entrances to junction

... allowing pedestrians to cross arbitrarily once all the traffic has ceased.

It's cheaper and I can imagine relatively quick to try...

If it don't work, then have your multi million pound consultation.

But I reckon it will work...

See other crossings that do this;

- Montpellier/Western Road in Brighton
- Oxford/Regent Street in London

I'm convinced that Zebra crossings are a step backwards...

We need to give road users/pedestrians a more equal standing at these kind of junctions...

when one group is on go, the other group is stopped... and vice versa...
I keep saying; 1. Reduce the speed limit to 20MPH on all approaches 2. Remove the railings 3. Paint a box junction on the entire junction 4. Change the traffic lights to stop all traffic on all entrances to junction ... allowing pedestrians to cross arbitrarily once all the traffic has ceased. It's cheaper and I can imagine relatively quick to try... If it don't work, then have your multi million pound consultation. But I reckon it will work... See other crossings that do this; - Montpellier/Western Road in Brighton - Oxford/Regent Street in London I'm convinced that Zebra crossings are a step backwards... We need to give road users/pedestrians a more equal standing at these kind of junctions... when one group is on go, the other group is stopped... and vice versa... StyleCop

2:35pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Thumper Hove says...

Does anyone actually trust the council to deliver any improvements?

This is the same council that spent a seven figure sum to put in two cycle lanes in Old Shoreham Road but has made the road more dangerous than ever (the planners didn't even realise that an allowance needed to be made at each road junction for cars' turning circles!)
Does anyone actually trust the council to deliver any improvements? This is the same council that spent a seven figure sum to put in two cycle lanes in Old Shoreham Road but has made the road more dangerous than ever (the planners didn't even realise that an allowance needed to be made at each road junction for cars' turning circles!) Thumper Hove

2:37pm Tue 20 Nov 12

kopite_rob says...

StyleCop wrote:
I keep saying;

1. Reduce the speed limit to 20MPH on all approaches
2. Remove the railings
3. Paint a box junction on the entire junction
4. Change the traffic lights to stop all traffic on all entrances to junction

... allowing pedestrians to cross arbitrarily once all the traffic has ceased.

It's cheaper and I can imagine relatively quick to try...

If it don't work, then have your multi million pound consultation.

But I reckon it will work...

See other crossings that do this;

- Montpellier/Western Road in Brighton
- Oxford/Regent Street in London

I'm convinced that Zebra crossings are a step backwards...

We need to give road users/pedestrians a more equal standing at these kind of junctions...

when one group is on go, the other group is stopped... and vice versa...
Sounds like a plan. I was up at Oxford Street a while ago and the new layout is brilliant. No street furniture, a big box junction and diagonal pedestrian crossing. Works brilliantly.
[quote][p][bold]StyleCop[/bold] wrote: I keep saying; 1. Reduce the speed limit to 20MPH on all approaches 2. Remove the railings 3. Paint a box junction on the entire junction 4. Change the traffic lights to stop all traffic on all entrances to junction ... allowing pedestrians to cross arbitrarily once all the traffic has ceased. It's cheaper and I can imagine relatively quick to try... If it don't work, then have your multi million pound consultation. But I reckon it will work... See other crossings that do this; - Montpellier/Western Road in Brighton - Oxford/Regent Street in London I'm convinced that Zebra crossings are a step backwards... We need to give road users/pedestrians a more equal standing at these kind of junctions... when one group is on go, the other group is stopped... and vice versa...[/p][/quote]Sounds like a plan. I was up at Oxford Street a while ago and the new layout is brilliant. No street furniture, a big box junction and diagonal pedestrian crossing. Works brilliantly. kopite_rob

3:23pm Tue 20 Nov 12

StyleCop says...

This is the thing - my proposal uses the exisitng infrastructure - with very little changes - and tweaks it.

All this wasted tax on these OTT consulatations that are a great vehicle for individual agencies that need to prove their worth and therefore present uber complex solutions with probably no real experience of using the environment they're proposing to change...

In my mind - we need to keep it simple - work in incremental steps - make a change and tweak accordingly.

What's there at this junction predominantly works - everyone can get where they need to get to - it's just not really fair for all users - which is what my proposal focuses on.

A pedestrian can spend an inordinate amount of time navigating that junction - especially compared to vehicles, that are in and out in seconds... and on their way... so why drivers get that privilege over pedestrians is inherently unfair, particularly in an area that is supposed to be a community - a community separated by streams of traffic.

Of course drivers need to be able to get from place to place - which is fine - but on the more macro scale so do pedestrians, and by holding them up, over and above drivers is, in my opinion unbalanced.

By giving the local community the option to make a choice over where they need to get to - rather than Coralling them using barriers, and forcing them around the perimeter - just makes the individual feel like some farm livestock...

The problem with the junction at the moment is that those individuals who are aggrieved at having to navigate the perimeter who choose to cross arbitrarily, not only take their own lives into their hands but put other people at risk - but my point is, is that people DO do that... which goes to show there is a need.

Hence the solution.

Stop ALL the traffic... allow pedestrians to go where they want, safely.
This is the thing - my proposal uses the exisitng infrastructure - with very little changes - and tweaks it. All this wasted tax on these OTT consulatations that are a great vehicle for individual agencies that need to prove their worth and therefore present uber complex solutions with probably no real experience of using the environment they're proposing to change... In my mind - we need to keep it simple - work in incremental steps - make a change and tweak accordingly. What's there at this junction predominantly works - everyone can get where they need to get to - it's just not really fair for all users - which is what my proposal focuses on. A pedestrian can spend an inordinate amount of time navigating that junction - especially compared to vehicles, that are in and out in seconds... and on their way... so why drivers get that privilege over pedestrians is inherently unfair, particularly in an area that is supposed to be a community - a community separated by streams of traffic. Of course drivers need to be able to get from place to place - which is fine - but on the more macro scale so do pedestrians, and by holding them up, over and above drivers is, in my opinion unbalanced. By giving the local community the option to make a choice over where they need to get to - rather than Coralling them using barriers, and forcing them around the perimeter - just makes the individual feel like some farm livestock... The problem with the junction at the moment is that those individuals who are aggrieved at having to navigate the perimeter who choose to cross arbitrarily, not only take their own lives into their hands but put other people at risk - but my point is, is that people DO do that... which goes to show there is a need. Hence the solution. Stop ALL the traffic... allow pedestrians to go where they want, safely. StyleCop

3:51pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Sevensisters says...

I grew up in the seven dials area. At that time there was a much larger roundabout. It was easier to judge which car was headed where because there was only one lane around it.
I grew up in the seven dials area. At that time there was a much larger roundabout. It was easier to judge which car was headed where because there was only one lane around it. Sevensisters

4:56pm Tue 20 Nov 12

pistachionut says...

Thumper Hove wrote:
Does anyone actually trust the council to deliver any improvements?

This is the same council that spent a seven figure sum to put in two cycle lanes in Old Shoreham Road but has made the road more dangerous than ever (the planners didn't even realise that an allowance needed to be made at each road junction for cars' turning circles!)
Well said.

Maybe the truth will hurt them, couldn't agree more.

The council could have saved a few bob just by painting lines on the road.
[quote][p][bold]Thumper Hove[/bold] wrote: Does anyone actually trust the council to deliver any improvements? This is the same council that spent a seven figure sum to put in two cycle lanes in Old Shoreham Road but has made the road more dangerous than ever (the planners didn't even realise that an allowance needed to be made at each road junction for cars' turning circles!)[/p][/quote]Well said. Maybe the truth will hurt them, couldn't agree more. The council could have saved a few bob just by painting lines on the road. pistachionut

5:10pm Tue 20 Nov 12

bug eye says...

If the new disastrous complicated set of 4 traffic lights in 100 yards recently installed near the west pier is anything to go by this council is determined to cause gridlock so I would not trust them with any traffic scheme. we are all pedestrians so this is not selfish car drivers speaking. stylecop it is simple cars get priority because there are more of them and cause more congestion if held up for long times. no pedestrian has to wait for more than 30 seconds I would imagine, and can cross the road when the lights are against them anyway there is no traffic unlike cars, if they have an amount of common sense. leave the roundabout alone just make it more attractive with planting, lighting new paving and less clutter.
If the new disastrous complicated set of 4 traffic lights in 100 yards recently installed near the west pier is anything to go by this council is determined to cause gridlock so I would not trust them with any traffic scheme. we are all pedestrians so this is not selfish car drivers speaking. stylecop it is simple cars get priority because there are more of them and cause more congestion if held up for long times. no pedestrian has to wait for more than 30 seconds I would imagine, and can cross the road when the lights are against them anyway there is no traffic unlike cars, if they have an amount of common sense. leave the roundabout alone just make it more attractive with planting, lighting new paving and less clutter. bug eye

5:50pm Tue 20 Nov 12

StyleCop says...

@ bug eye...

Indeed - leave the roundabout alone. That's the point - I'm making - there's very little one needs to change bar a few road signs and a few tins of paint.

But I do have to disagree with you regarding the reasons to give priority to vehicles...

on the whole priority given to cars in an urban space is fair enough if that urban space was devoid of pedestrians. But in this context the Seven Dials is/should be a community hub.

One that has had its soul undermined by dividing it up with heavy traffic flow - both can co-exist in the same space without the need to give the motorist the upper hand... there are plenty of examples in other urban sites dotted around the country... and you can't get a better example than the center of London with my Regents/Oxford street junction example? Where the sheer volume of traffic, both on foot and on wheels dictates a more even-handed approach... diagonal crossing - brilliant idea... taken from Tokyo and New York and other fast-paced urban environments...

As a species we should look around us and learn from others... not keep trying to re-invent the wheel!

You are right though, in fairness, in the case of the dials I'm sure there are more vehicles passing through on an hour by hour basis compared to foot fall, particularly compared to Tokyo/London & New York... :) , but then we're missing the community factor - which has to be taken into consideration in this context.

Plus, your point regarding congestion...? Well, the traffic stops regularly anyway does it not... each time a pedestrian uses a crossing? - so it will make little to no difference.

More can be done to redress the balance and give equal right of way to both users who deserve equal flow and rights...

...and in my opinion speaking as both pedestrian, cyclist and motorist who uses this junction on a regular basis in all these roles I for one wouldn't complain if I got stopped by a traffic light... I do anyway... so it'll make no difference to my journey what so ever.

So, as you say, pretty up the space, add some planting, remove the street furniture... then if the traffic is slower and occasionally the space is punctuated by no traffic giving locals a chance to cross and from wherever to wherever - then In my mind I see a far better environment for everyone.

Win Win..

Gets my vote.
@ bug eye... Indeed - leave the roundabout alone. That's the point - I'm making - there's very little one needs to change bar a few road signs and a few tins of paint. But I do have to disagree with you regarding the reasons to give priority to vehicles... on the whole priority given to cars in an urban space is fair enough if that urban space was devoid of pedestrians. But in this context the Seven Dials is/should be a community hub. One that has had its soul undermined by dividing it up with heavy traffic flow - both can co-exist in the same space without the need to give the motorist the upper hand... there are plenty of examples in other urban sites dotted around the country... and you can't get a better example than the center of London with my Regents/Oxford street junction example? Where the sheer volume of traffic, both on foot and on wheels dictates a more even-handed approach... diagonal crossing - brilliant idea... taken from Tokyo and New York and other fast-paced urban environments... As a species we should look around us and learn from others... not keep trying to re-invent the wheel! You are right though, in fairness, in the case of the dials I'm sure there are more vehicles passing through on an hour by hour basis compared to foot fall, particularly compared to Tokyo/London & New York... :) , but then we're missing the community factor - which has to be taken into consideration in this context. Plus, your point regarding congestion...? Well, the traffic stops regularly anyway does it not... each time a pedestrian uses a crossing? - so it will make little to no difference. More can be done to redress the balance and give equal right of way to both users who deserve equal flow and rights... ...and in my opinion speaking as both pedestrian, cyclist and motorist who uses this junction on a regular basis in all these roles I for one wouldn't complain if I got stopped by a traffic light... I do anyway... so it'll make no difference to my journey what so ever. So, as you say, pretty up the space, add some planting, remove the street furniture... then if the traffic is slower and occasionally the space is punctuated by no traffic giving locals a chance to cross and from wherever to wherever - then In my mind I see a far better environment for everyone. Win Win.. Gets my vote. StyleCop

5:53pm Tue 20 Nov 12

StyleCop says...

Oh... and I believe the new lights configuration at Regency Square is in preparation for the i360 - which is coming folks!

(FWIW)
Oh... and I believe the new lights configuration at Regency Square is in preparation for the i360 - which is coming folks! (FWIW) StyleCop

5:56pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Maxwell's Ghost says...

Well done to these people.
The council has totally ignored the impact on surrounding residential streets with the Lewes Road plan, despite an officer's report raising concerns that traffic would simply be dispersed onto surrounding roads.
Currently Lewes Road is down to one lane in part while work is underway.
The whole route will eventually be reduced to a single lane, and already the number of lorries, vans and increase number of cars heading down Coombe and Bear Road to avoid the Lewes Road is noticeable.
My cycle ride has increased by 14 minutes in the past two weeks as I now get stuck behind a terrible queue of traffic now using residential back streets as a main route.
I am already seeing some cyclists bumping up the pavement tyring to reach the Lewes Road.
Stick to your guns Seven Dials people, although the councillors will ignore you because they don't believe or listen to a word anyone tells them.
Well done to these people. The council has totally ignored the impact on surrounding residential streets with the Lewes Road plan, despite an officer's report raising concerns that traffic would simply be dispersed onto surrounding roads. Currently Lewes Road is down to one lane in part while work is underway. The whole route will eventually be reduced to a single lane, and already the number of lorries, vans and increase number of cars heading down Coombe and Bear Road to avoid the Lewes Road is noticeable. My cycle ride has increased by 14 minutes in the past two weeks as I now get stuck behind a terrible queue of traffic now using residential back streets as a main route. I am already seeing some cyclists bumping up the pavement tyring to reach the Lewes Road. Stick to your guns Seven Dials people, although the councillors will ignore you because they don't believe or listen to a word anyone tells them. Maxwell's Ghost

9:35pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Zorniza says...

Hello

just to clarify, the residents are preparing a petition to draw attention to the problem with the side streets traffic. The petition is on line

http://present.brigh
ton-hove.gov.uk/mgEP
etitionDisplay.aspx?
ID=356&RPID=5917712&
HPID=5917712>http://
present.brighton-hov
e.gov.uk/mgEPetition
Display.aspx?ID=356&
RPID=5917712&HPID=59
17712



Kind regards
Hello just to clarify, the residents are preparing a petition to draw attention to the problem with the side streets traffic. The petition is on line http://present.brigh ton-hove.gov.uk/mgEP etitionDisplay.aspx? ID=356&RPID=5917712& HPID=5917712>http:// present.brighton-hov e.gov.uk/mgEPetition Display.aspx?ID=356& RPID=5917712&HPID=59 17712 Kind regards Zorniza

9:40pm Tue 20 Nov 12

Zorniza says...

This petition can be signed by anyone who can read - (adults or children) and anyone who wishes to support it wherever you live.

Paper or electronic copies are acceptable.

The petition will be presented in front of the council. If 1250 people sign, the council will debate the issue.
This petition can be signed by anyone who can read - (adults or children) and anyone who wishes to support it wherever you live. Paper or electronic copies are acceptable. The petition will be presented in front of the council. If 1250 people sign, the council will debate the issue. Zorniza

10:38pm Tue 20 Nov 12

StyleCop says...

Signed it this afternoon.

:)

Are there any local group meetings planned? Be good to get these out there somehow...
Signed it this afternoon. :) Are there any local group meetings planned? Be good to get these out there somehow... StyleCop

9:51am Wed 21 Nov 12

StyleCop says...

Zorniza wrote:
This petition can be signed by anyone who can read - (adults or children) and anyone who wishes to support it wherever you live. Paper or electronic copies are acceptable. The petition will be presented in front of the council. If 1250 people sign, the council will debate the issue.
1250 Signatures?? - with 8 days remaining only 49 people have signed the e-petition...

it's not looking good is it?

Are there any paper copies been handed in that we know of?

oh, the apathy...
[quote][p][bold]Zorniza[/bold] wrote: This petition can be signed by anyone who can read - (adults or children) and anyone who wishes to support it wherever you live. Paper or electronic copies are acceptable. The petition will be presented in front of the council. If 1250 people sign, the council will debate the issue.[/p][/quote]1250 Signatures?? - with 8 days remaining only 49 people have signed the e-petition... it's not looking good is it? Are there any paper copies been handed in that we know of? oh, the apathy... StyleCop

10:16am Wed 21 Nov 12

Zorniza says...

Paper copies of the petition were left in shops around the Seven Dials.

Door to door volunteers have collected more than 600 signatures so far.

We need 1250 siignature so the petition will be put in front of the full council to test the support of all parties.
Paper copies of the petition were left in shops around the Seven Dials. Door to door volunteers have collected more than 600 signatures so far. We need 1250 siignature so the petition will be put in front of the full council to test the support of all parties. Zorniza

10:45am Wed 21 Nov 12

StyleCop says...

Great.
Great. StyleCop

1:34pm Sat 24 Nov 12

anubis says...

There are now more than 900 signatures -- if you've not signed yet, do so now!

online is the easy way (see above)

If implemented, these plans will destroy many nearby residential streets -- thirty years ago it was shown at the Dials; with half the road access from southbound Dyke Road traffic, diversions MUST occur ... and that's to the nearby streets.

No intelligent person disagrees the environment would improve with less motor cars -- but residents demand a proper investigation of the plan's implications. Council has not been straight with us!
There are now more than 900 signatures -- if you've not signed yet, do so now! online is the easy way (see above) If implemented, these plans will destroy many nearby residential streets -- thirty years ago it was shown at the Dials; with half the road access from southbound Dyke Road traffic, diversions MUST occur ... and that's to the nearby streets. No intelligent person disagrees the environment would improve with less motor cars -- but residents demand a proper investigation of the plan's implications. Council has not been straight with us! anubis

3:42pm Sat 1 Dec 12

Maxwell's alive says...

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Well done to these people. The council has totally ignored the impact on surrounding residential streets with the Lewes Road plan, despite an officer's report raising concerns that traffic would simply be dispersed onto surrounding roads. Currently Lewes Road is down to one lane in part while work is underway. The whole route will eventually be reduced to a single lane, and already the number of lorries, vans and increase number of cars heading down Coombe and Bear Road to avoid the Lewes Road is noticeable. My cycle ride has increased by 14 minutes in the past two weeks as I now get stuck behind a terrible queue of traffic now using residential back streets as a main route. I am already seeing some cyclists bumping up the pavement tyring to reach the Lewes Road. Stick to your guns Seven Dials people, although the councillors will ignore you because they don't believe or listen to a word anyone tells them.
Paul - Hopefully you'll get crushed underneath a lorry and be buried underneath the new bus lane - would be a fitting tribute to the scheme dont you think?! Perhaps it could be called the Paul Lewis Bus Lane

The Councillors ignore you because you talk rubbish, simple as that. Come up with something valid and they will listen.

Idiot
[quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: Well done to these people. The council has totally ignored the impact on surrounding residential streets with the Lewes Road plan, despite an officer's report raising concerns that traffic would simply be dispersed onto surrounding roads. Currently Lewes Road is down to one lane in part while work is underway. The whole route will eventually be reduced to a single lane, and already the number of lorries, vans and increase number of cars heading down Coombe and Bear Road to avoid the Lewes Road is noticeable. My cycle ride has increased by 14 minutes in the past two weeks as I now get stuck behind a terrible queue of traffic now using residential back streets as a main route. I am already seeing some cyclists bumping up the pavement tyring to reach the Lewes Road. Stick to your guns Seven Dials people, although the councillors will ignore you because they don't believe or listen to a word anyone tells them.[/p][/quote]Paul - Hopefully you'll get crushed underneath a lorry and be buried underneath the new bus lane - would be a fitting tribute to the scheme dont you think?! Perhaps it could be called the Paul Lewis Bus Lane The Councillors ignore you because you talk rubbish, simple as that. Come up with something valid and they will listen. Idiot Maxwell's alive

3:50pm Sat 1 Dec 12

Maxwell's alive says...

anubis wrote:
There are now more than 900 signatures -- if you've not signed yet, do so now! online is the easy way (see above) If implemented, these plans will destroy many nearby residential streets -- thirty years ago it was shown at the Dials; with half the road access from southbound Dyke Road traffic, diversions MUST occur ... and that's to the nearby streets. No intelligent person disagrees the environment would improve with less motor cars -- but residents demand a proper investigation of the plan's implications. Council has not been straight with us!
Boo hoo, dry your teary eyes Potter.

Some of us who live near you don't want to sign your poisonus petition because we know the scheme will make things better for everyone. If you dont like it then move somehwere else as no one would miss you.

Dont know why you are so worried about it, you'll be gone soon anyway and then you wont have to worry about it.

Now run along and stop posting such rubbish and enjoy the Seven Dials while it stays like it is (because it wont be for much longer)
[quote][p][bold]anubis[/bold] wrote: There are now more than 900 signatures -- if you've not signed yet, do so now! online is the easy way (see above) If implemented, these plans will destroy many nearby residential streets -- thirty years ago it was shown at the Dials; with half the road access from southbound Dyke Road traffic, diversions MUST occur ... and that's to the nearby streets. No intelligent person disagrees the environment would improve with less motor cars -- but residents demand a proper investigation of the plan's implications. Council has not been straight with us![/p][/quote]Boo hoo, dry your teary eyes Potter. Some of us who live near you don't want to sign your poisonus petition because we know the scheme will make things better for everyone. If you dont like it then move somehwere else as no one would miss you. Dont know why you are so worried about it, you'll be gone soon anyway and then you wont have to worry about it. Now run along and stop posting such rubbish and enjoy the Seven Dials while it stays like it is (because it wont be for much longer) Maxwell's alive

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