Appeal to control dogs after deaths

6:50pm Thursday 3rd January 2013 in News By Anna Roberts, Crime reporter

Martin Carr Martin Carr

DOG-WALKERS are being warned to keep their pets under control following a spate of attacks on sheep.

Six Hebridean sheep have been mauled to death by dogs in North Chailey, near Lewes, in recent months.

And last week a farmer shot a dog dead after he claims the animal attacked his livestock.

Peter Stuart’s eight-year-old Hungarian Vizsla dog Django was shot by farmer Martin Carr at Balsdean Farm, in Rottingdean, on Friday.

Mr Stuart, 55, who lives in central Brighton, said he thought Mr Carr should not have killed Django.

Mr Carr said the dog was attacking his sheep and many of the ewes were pregnant.

He now fears new-born lambs could have birth defects.

Sussex Police were called, but neither party has been arrested, although they were spoken to.

Mr Stuart said he was with Django and a second dog, one-year-old Flynn, when a crowscarer sounded and led to the older dog running off.

He said: “He was scared of loud noises.

“We searched for him but he ran off and we could not find him.

“The next day we were called and told our dog had been shot.

“He was probably looking for help when he was shot – he was very friendly and sensitive.”

Mr Carr, who accepted he shot the dog, claimed some-one had untied the gate to his farm.

He said: “Your dog may be the friendliest dog in the world, but sheep don’t know that.

“They’re going to run, because they are prey. That is why it’s so important to keep dogs on a lead, for the safety of the sheep.

“When a sheep sees a dog, it sees a predator.”

Several Hebridean sheep have also been killed by dogs in North Chailey, near Lewes, in recent months – the latest just a few days before Christmas.

Grazier Kevin Uridge, of Townings Farm, Plumpton Road, says each animal costs about £80.

The sheep were introduced in October to graze on invasive plants as part of a project to protect heathland.

He said: “Walkers don’t realise the capability of their dogs.

“It’s sad and depressing that these sheep have died.”

A Sussex Police spokesman said: “We remind all dog owners of the importance of keeping their pets under proper control.”

Comments(30)

BrightonDogForum says...
7:22pm Thu 3 Jan 13

I read this story in the paper with mixed feelings, a delightful picture of the dog, Django, featured and you couldn't not be sad for the owners. It is important to keep control of your dogs near sheep and there are plenty of locations sheep free, though the council are introducing sheep where we used to be able to walk our dogs.
I'm reminded of an occasion where my, part collie, got into the area at Wild Park. She instinctively rounded them into a group, and my control returned her to me as soon as her 'job was done'.
Which does make me question the assertion "Your dog may be the friendliest dog in the world, but sheep don’t know that. They’re going to run, because they are prey." for the use of sheepdogs to control sheep must mean they realise the difference between a dog attacking and a "friendly" dog, as the family maintain he was.
But the loss of sheep in horrific attacks must be condemned, and those owners held to account where they can be found.

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qm says...
7:23pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Most unfortunate but have to agree with the farmer's actions. I love dogs but despise people who own them and don't understand the consequences and responsibilities of ownership! They would be the first to blub if someone else's dog started eating their animals or children!

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Brightonian1966 says...
7:51pm Thu 3 Jan 13

He seems very proud of what he has done.Posing for his photo in the local rag.killing animals seems to bother him not a jot.killing someone's family pet what a ****.

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In the sticks says...
7:56pm Thu 3 Jan 13

I live in the area now grazed by sheep and cattle in North Chailey.
It gobsmacks me how dog owners let their animals roam without a leash.
There are so-called 'professional' dog-walkers who still walk on the common, some with eight dogs at a time, with the animals unleashed.

No matter how 'sensitive' the dog owners think their pets may be, when there are this many dogs in a group they revert to pack mentality.

It makes me angry thinking how a 'dog-walker' taking out so many animals who aren't theirs thinks they can even begin to control them.

The farmer who tries their best to keep their sheep and cattle in a well looked after and well managed state there is fighting a constant battle against willfullly-ignorant dog walkers who think they 'know best'.

I feel for the Uridges and the trouble they have to constantly cope with.

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Saker-Clive says...
8:07pm Thu 3 Jan 13

People need to realise that this is the farmers livelyhood and on private land. There are bridle ways and public footpaths around the area of the farm but stray off those and you are on Private Land...........in a word Trespassing!! The farmer is in his rights to shoot any animal deemed to be worrying his livestock and although sad for the dog owner he should have ha proper control of his charge. All this Right to Roam iwill end up causing more problems especially where livestock are involved. I bet it would be a different story if the dog or owner was in a field with a bull and it gored them.......people would be screaming dangerous animal and want it destroyed even though it is on its own land!!

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Brightonian1966 says...
8:43pm Thu 3 Jan 13

The hunting lobby out in force

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puddingandpi says...
8:47pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Good for him, he did right. You should see the carnage a "friendly" dog can leave behind it. If the animal doesn't injure, maim or kill a sheep, it can set off miscarriages - a whole season of lambs can die & ewes too as they miscarry out in the fields with no-one to help. They're brought in when it's time for them to lamb.

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Brightonian1966 says...
8:50pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Yeah and bring back hanging

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evon says...
8:54pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Here here In the sticks. Dog walkers do take out far to many dogs to control, we all know that dogs are pack animals which means when one fights other will join in, the councils need to have more stringent laws for them, I've noticed one with ten dogs and another lost a dog on the by pass hills without even a collar on. As for the farmer he has every right to shot a dog if it is attacking his live stock, and I say good for him, you, as a dog owner you should have your dog under control or keep a leash on when walking if you feel your dog could be a danger or it is liable to run off. Yes, I am a dog owner, but a responsible one.

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Oooh err says...
10:32pm Thu 3 Jan 13

Dogs are, as far as I am aware, animals. Had the dog been on a lead, under the direct control of it's owner, it would be alive today.
How is that the farmer's fault exactly?

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GardeningMama says...
10:32pm Thu 3 Jan 13

I wouldn't think of letting my two staffis off the lead anywhere near livestock as I know that they would worry the sheep and perhaps attack them. As a country girl I was always brought up not to let dogs near a farmers livestock for this very reason. When you are walking on someone else's land, you respect it.And the farmer has every right to shoot the animal, sad as this may be.

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Oooh err says...
10:44pm Thu 3 Jan 13

GardeningMama wrote:
I wouldn't think of letting my two staffis off the lead anywhere near livestock as I know that they would worry the sheep and perhaps attack them. As a country girl I was always brought up not to let dogs near a farmers livestock for this very reason. When you are walking on someone else's land, you respect it.And the farmer has every right to shoot the animal, sad as this may be.
Well said! Now if only we could get all dog owners to understand that pavements, paths, fields and parks are all usually "someone else's land" what a wonderful world it would be.

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Brightonian1966 says...
11:04pm Thu 3 Jan 13

http://www.theargus.
co.uk/news/5198853.R
ottingdean_farmer_th
reatens_to_shoot_dog
s_on_his_land/

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matlock says...
7:38am Fri 4 Jan 13

If the dog was attacking or chasing the sheep, the farmers actions are justified.

If the dog was simply in the same field, the farmers actions were over-zealous.

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Notamoron says...
11:13am Fri 4 Jan 13

Well said Matlock.
Frankly most of the comments on this article are short sighted and sickening.
It is extremely unlikely that the dog was bothering the sheep, and Mr Carr has already set out his stall as "shoot first, answer questions later."
Either way I think he is about to get a whole heap of legal hoops to jump through. We'll see how **** sure he is after that.
Frankly, I wish his every possible sadness for 2013.

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lillylou says...
12:01pm Fri 4 Jan 13

He wouldn't of shot it if it had been a non statues dog a normal dog eg shitzu or whippet if people wana keep buyin statues dogs and scaring people out of parks than karma has come along !!!

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Martin Carr says...
1:24pm Fri 4 Jan 13

An article full of errors.

The sheep had been pushed against two separate gates so hard that they had snapped the wire holding them, the gates had not been untied.
All of the flock are scanned as twins and the flock's due date is the 20th January.

Having had this issue before, I am concerned not about birth defects, but about stress induced abortions.

To reply to Mr Stuart in the article, when the dog was shot, it would not respond to a human voice, we tried, it was intent on the sheep it was chasing to and fro.

This could serve as a warning that our dogs are only a command away from reverting to the wild state from which they were bred, and calls into question whether we truly know our dogs at all.

I can assure all that I am not trigger happy, I do not even have access to a gun of my own, I have to call in others to undertake this most un-pleasant of tasks.

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Notamoron says...
2:16pm Fri 4 Jan 13

Mr Carr, would you care to comment on how and why the dog has frontal injuries including under chin, throat/collar?
This has a very strong suggestion that the dog was under control, most likely had eye contact with you and might even have been in the sit position.
Also, if as you say you do not have access to a gun of your own, you were very well organised to get up there in time and despatch the animal?Lastly, there is a report that you have changed your statement, why?
Lastly, a well trained dog is NOT only a command away from a wild state. This was a well trained dog.

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thevoiceoftruth says...
4:20pm Fri 4 Jan 13

I'm a huge animal lover and feel great sympathy for the dog owner but I'm with the farmer on this one. When anywhere near livestock, dogs should be on a lead at all times. Sheep will panic and the farmer has his livestock to protect. If the dog is in the field with the sheep, the farmer has the right to shoot it.

Some people who walk their dogs up on the Ashdown Forest are completely irresponsible and despite signs warning of sheep grazing, let their dogs off the lead. Every year a number of sheep are attacked by dogs. Some dog owners resent the sheep even being there in the first instance so just ignore all the signs asking for dogs to be kept on leads on purpose. Sorry for the loss of Django but hopefully this story will make other dog owners more responsible near livestock.

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farang says...
8:01pm Fri 4 Jan 13

Everyone has the right to own a dog, and the right to use established footpaths and bridleways, however, they also have responsibility for their animals. A mature person should know it is their responsibility to keep the animals under control and far too many do not do so.
The farmer is wholly within his rights to shoot a dog which is worrying any of his livestock.
This story is repeated time and time again.
It is about time dog walkers upheld their responsibility and the easiest way would be to keep their dogs on a lead.
They would be extremely upset if the same were to happen to them!

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AngelicDevil says...
9:44pm Fri 4 Jan 13

Completely agree with the actions of the farmer. This is his livelihood for goodness sake! As others have mentioned above, sheep are prey and therefore when a predator approaches they will naturally scare which causes distress and can cause the loss of pregnancy.

@Notamoron: You are a moron if you truly believe that a "well trained" dog loses it's natural instinct. My parents husky is a very "well trained" dog but you let her near my pet rabbit, or she sniffs out wildlife in the woods and that's it, she's gone. Her hunting instinct kicks in and damned if she's listening to her human master!

If, as a dog owner, you cannot understand these basic facts then you should not be allowed to be in control of one.

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ethel80 says...
1:02am Sat 5 Jan 13

RIP Django.

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Notamoron says...
7:23am Sat 5 Jan 13

@AngelicDevil, as an oxymoron yourself, it might help you to start from the basic premise that you have actually read and understood my point. I am highlighting that you should not blanket all dog's reactions to livestock from Mr Carr's statement.

These owners lost their dog overnight and it would been frightened and alone. It had been very well trained - I know the trainer - and I personally feel that Mr Carr thought this particular point is all feels he needs to shoot a dog.

There is seemingly no evidence the dog had disturbed the sheep. In fact the only evidence appears to be a dead dog with a strong indication he was behaving.

We are all relying on the statement of a farmer who is on record as ready to shoot the next dog unsupervised on his land, regardless.

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Peter Stuart says...
3:11pm Sat 5 Jan 13

Following the sad loss of our dog, Django, we just want to offer some clarification and additional observations.

Various comments posted suggest a misunderstanding of the facts. We were out walking our two dogs, Django and Flynn, on the afternoon of Thursday 27th December. We met the Balsdean Farm shepherd as we came thorugh a bridleway gate on our way from Woodingdean to Telscombe Tye. The shepherd told us to put our dogs on leads as there were sheep in the field we had just entered, and we did. The shepherd also claimed that he had seen us walk through a field of sheep with our dogs off lead. This was impossible as we had not encountered any sheep up to that point. The only sheep visible were enclosed several hunderd metres north of our route.

When we were well clear to the east of Balsdean Farm, we let our dogs off their leads as we were now walking through arable land. When Django was frightened away by a bird scarer he ran north east in the general direction of Rodmel. We searched and called for him until it was going dark and we had to give up and go back the following morning. While we were out searching again, the police rang us with the news that Django had been shot on Balsdean Farm. They repeated the story that we had been seen walking through a field of sheep with the dogs off lead with the added embellishment that we had left the gate open. The police also said that Django had been seen running through three fields of sheep that morning and had been shot. This despite there having been a heavy mist with visibility at about 50 meters.

We understand Mr Carr deferred speaking to the police as he wanted to seek legal advice, and When he did speak with the investigating officer on the Sunday, his account of what had happened, as retold to me by that officer, had substantially changed. Mr Carr now reported that he and other farm workers were separating two sets of sheep which mingled because of a broken gate and discovered Django when the sheep they were driving downhill started to mill about. We would like to say that Django has always been nervous of sheep and cattle, and it is more likely that he would have been trying to get away from the sheep, or at the least, to fend them off rather than chasing them. The nature of Django's injury strongly indicates that he was shot at point blank range, and was probably sitting or standing and facing the person who shot him. The shot must have been downwards into Django's body, as there was no exit woulnd at the back of his neck, further evidence that he was shot at very close quarters. This doees not fit with the report that Django would not respond to calls from Mr Carr and his colleagues and also indicates that at the time he was shot, Django was not a risk to livetock.

Mr Carr also claims in this thread that he did not have access to a gun. We feel this is questionable, as the police had told us that Mar Carr's gun licence was up for renewal and he was not sure if he could legally shoot Django himself,

The police told us that Mar Carr had claimed that he had previously put up notices warning of sheep grazing and that these had been vandalised. However, we can say that we have walked through this area on many occasions and have never seen any signs, valdalised or otherwise.

To summarise, we find it difficult to accept the account given of Django's death, since a number of Mr Carr's various claims are incorrect or contradictory. We would hope that in future Mr Carr considers more carefully before needlessly destroying a much loved pet and will be more mindful of his legal responsibility to resort to shooting a dog as the very last resort. As responsible dog owners we will continue to put our dog on a lead around livestock. We accept that farmers have the right to protect their livestock but refute the suggestion that a dog is "only a command away from reverting to the wild state".

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Auntie Al says...
1:25am Thu 10 Jan 13

I'm so sorry to read about Django to die in such an horrendous way, and I hope you get justice for what Mr Carr has done..I have lived in Woodingdean for many years, and have myself in the past as have many other dog walkers been approached by this man, and he is very intimidating and rude. Sadly Mr Carr is very well known around the area for this behaviour, and I for one knowing his attitude towards dogs, do not believe he tried to capture Django rather than shoot him... RIP DJANGO

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Tua says...
10:15am Thu 10 Jan 13

So sorry for the loss of your dog Django, after reading the article and the comments here I agree a thorough investigation needs to be under way asap.Whilst I agree farmers need to protect THEIR animals from harm it appears that Django was also possibly just an animal running scared and confused..this fact(?) just sends shivers down my spine (as a dog owner)'frontal injuries including under chin, throat/collar?..' or will there be a suggestion the dog also went for the farmer?

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Peter Stuart says...
7:04pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Unforunately, the police have closed their investigation into the shooting of our dog as the investigating officer completely believed Mr Carr's account of what happened.
The law states that a dog worrying sheep includes the mere presence of a dog off lead and without supervision in an enclosure containing sheep. As Mr Carr's account of what happened is encompassed by this definition he was technically within his rights to shoot Django.
We still have several unanswered questions and our suspicions about the actual circumstances of Django's death remain. However, we have now looked at both the criminal and the civil law and reluctantly accept that there is no prospect of a successful case being brought.

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Auntie Al says...
7:14pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Its outrageous that he gets away with shooting Django, and with obvious evidence that he was shot at close range...Surely a gun expert would be able to verify this to prove it! The police never seem to want to help any matters involving dogs..they make me sick..I am so sorry for your loss, it breaks my heart

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Notamoron says...
7:30pm Thu 10 Jan 13

The Police complaints commission would have to enforce a re-opening of the case if the report from an expert demonstrated that a clearly false statement had been given.
This actually then becomes a very serious matter with the far greater charge of falsifying evidence and/or perverting the course of justice for any other supporting statements.

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Auntie Al says...
8:02pm Thu 10 Jan 13

Its all so awful..The police are far from stupid, and when they saw Django's injuries they must know they were not those of a moving target....I can tell that even from what I have read..It seems to me the police really couldn't care less how Django died, and the law needs to change..God help us when farmers start the cull on badgers as they will be shooting at anything on four legs, and get away with it :(

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