Brighton and Hove blueprint till 2030 approved

Toad's Hole Valley

Toad's Hole Valley

First published in News
Last updated
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The future of Brighton and Hove has been mapped out after a key town hall debate tonight.

The City Plan will guide the development of housing, offices, shops and public transport until 2030.

Despite opposition from some and heated debate with others, town hall bosses believe the document has struck the right balance to meet all the city's future needs.

Green and the majority of Labour councillors voted for the amended plan while the Conservative group abstained.

Hangleton and Knoll councillor Brian Fitch was the only member to vote against it due to the plan to develop Toad's Hole Valley, an undeveloped site in Hove.

Among the key headlines are:

- Housing target of 11,400 homes;

- Agreement to build on Toad's Hole Valley in Hove;

- No park and ride;

- Enough employment space so city can become "powerhouse of the region";

- Key redevelopment sites, such as King Alfred, Shoreham Harbour and Lewes Road corridor, identified;

- Protection for Brighton centre as a retail and office area.

When introducing the plan, deputy council leader Phelim MacCafferty said: "I believe the plan will carry us on the right path to 2030.

"We need to balance our desperate need for homes and jobs while protecting open spaces."

He added: "Be in no doubt we're doing the right thing."

Council leader Jason Kitcat said: "Once in a generation does a decision like this come before us in the council "This will affect our residents and visitors today and those not yet born.

"We have risen to the challenges of the plan."

A series of amendments were presented by opposition councillors during the three and half hour debate.

The Conservative group were unhappy that three of its amendments were rejected by planners for being "unsound".

This included a plan to delay building on Toad's Hole Valley until 2020 when all brownfield sites had been exhausted.

Conservative group leader Geoffrey Theobald claimed it was "Stalinist".

He said: "It's a sad day for democracy when fundamental decisions are being taken by officers that were not elected. That cannot be right."

Labour group leader Gill Mitchell said she was "broadly supportive" to the plan.

She added: "Difficult decisions have to be made if the city is to grow and people securely housed."

PARK AND RIDE

The City Plan proposed dropping park and ride as an option for Brighton and Hove in the future.

Town hall bosses said there was not enough land or money to make it happen in the next two decades.

However the Labour group proposed it was reinstated.

But Ian Davey, transport committee chairman, said: "Park and Ride is simply undeliverable.

"In times of austerity it's an expensive and inefficient use of public money particularly in an era of declining car use."

He added the South Downs National Park Authority agreed with its position, claiming the Labour group was simply "cutting and pasting" it's previous policy.

TOAD'S HOLE VALLEY

The 47 hectare site nestled between King George VI Avenue and the A27 in Hove has remained undeveloped for hundreds of years.

But city planners claims the only way of meeting its housing target of 11,400 homes was to include it in the plan.

This was 7,000 properties below the Government target.

The Green administration believes the plot could hold an "carbon-neutral" development including 700 homes, a secondary school, business park and transport links.

But more than 2,000 people opposed the inclusion claiming it would destroy wildlife and increase pollution.

Among them were Labour councillor Brian Fitch and Conservative councillors Jayne Bennett and Vanessa Brown.

Coun Brown claimed it would lead to a "complete ruination of the west part of our city".

Noel Sladen, speaking on behalf of residents in Goldstone Valley, said: "Changes in policy are always an option for you.

"We take comfort that when mass opposition took place last summer to the removal of the evening 81 bus service this led to a reversal of a policy which was much appreciated.

"We beg you not to ignore the views of the residents. We need to protect our green sites and not abuse the position of trust we have for our environment."

However, there were no amendments presented to alter the situation at tonight's meeting after Coun Fitch could not find a seconder.

DEVELOPMENT AREAS

The City Plan earmarks eight areas across Brighton and Hove as key places for mixed-use redevelopment.

These include Lewes Road corridor, Shoreham Harbour, Brighton Marina, King Alfred and the Eastern Road corridor.

OTHER

The document also includes six special areas which it wants to protect, which includes the seafront and South Downs.

The local authority also wants to protect Brighton city centre to ensure it remains the focal point for offices and retail.

To avoid “studentification” of areas, quotas will be enforced on the number of student houses in areas such as Coombe Road, Bevendean and Hanover.

The council has also relaxed restrictions which prevent hotels becoming homes unless they have been empty for five years.

However, a Hotel Core Zone will remain between Regency Square and Bedford Street.

WHERE NOW?

The City Plan will be published for a six week formal consultation before being submitted to the Government in April.

It is expected the Planning Inspector will examine Brighton and Hove's City Plan in the autumn before possible adoption in February 2014.

AMENDMENTS

CONSERVATIVE AMENDMENTS

1) Zoned approach to car free housing - should be restricted to city centre with good public transport links - REJECTED

2) Affordable housing - revert back to current policy of 40% affordable housing on sites of ten units of more - REJECTED

3) Housing densities - flexible targets for locations across city - APPROVED

LABOUR AMENDMENTS

1) Brighton station - recognise importance of area as major transport hub - APPROVED

2) Support for Brighton Main Line 2 project, opening up direct line from the city to London via Lewes and Uckfield - APPROVED

3) School places - work with groups to ensure sufficient provision either through new or expanded schools - APPROVED

4) Relax sustainability aspect in new builds to not hinder development - APPROVED

5) Edward Street/Eastern Road - re-route traffic away from area before Royal Sussex County Hospital revamp - APPROVED

6) Further protection for urban fringe, the green spaces inside bypass - APRROVED

7) Reinstate park and ride - REJECTED

8) Call for extra care housing - APPROVED

Comments (46)

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11:20pm Thu 31 Jan 13

Maxwell's Ghost says...

Ian davey said park and ride was undeliverable. Ian Davey is possibly one of the most incompetent councillors this city has endured and there have been a few.
Mr Davey why not take up bowls instead of ruining our town.
Ian davey said park and ride was undeliverable. Ian Davey is possibly one of the most incompetent councillors this city has endured and there have been a few. Mr Davey why not take up bowls instead of ruining our town. Maxwell's Ghost
  • Score: 0

12:22am Fri 1 Feb 13

A Watcher says...

How about a referendum on Park & Ride?
How about a referendum on Park & Ride? A Watcher
  • Score: 0

2:57am Fri 1 Feb 13

Pebbles says...

1.5 million to cover the cost of the 20mph blanket limit... and yet no funds available for park and ride which would produce some revenue.

Hopefully the greens (with a small 'g') will be out in two years.
1.5 million to cover the cost of the 20mph blanket limit... and yet no funds available for park and ride which would produce some revenue. Hopefully the greens (with a small 'g') will be out in two years. Pebbles
  • Score: 0

4:56am Fri 1 Feb 13

Kate234 says...

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?
That's a good idea.
[quote][p][bold]A Watcher[/bold] wrote: How about a referendum on Park & Ride?[/p][/quote]That's a good idea. Kate234
  • Score: 0

6:17am Fri 1 Feb 13

BornInBrighton1968 says...

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?
How about a referendum on removing the Green council from power?
[quote][p][bold]A Watcher[/bold] wrote: How about a referendum on Park & Ride?[/p][/quote]How about a referendum on removing the Green council from power? BornInBrighton1968
  • Score: 0

7:13am Fri 1 Feb 13

Brightonlad86 says...

If these developments do go ahead, this would be great news for the thousands of construction workers struggling to find work.

......Or will the Eastern Europeans get there first?
If these developments do go ahead, this would be great news for the thousands of construction workers struggling to find work. ......Or will the Eastern Europeans get there first? Brightonlad86
  • Score: 0

7:55am Fri 1 Feb 13

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit says...

"Declining car use" Utter, utter rubbish. New car registrations rose 5.3% last year. Why? Because the population of Britain, especially South East England is increasing and unsurprisingly the usage of ALL forms of transport; buses trains, bikes and cars is also increasing. Given the measures taken in the city centre to reduce vehicle traffic by making it 'hard' the provision of Park and Ride for visitors should have been the #1 priority.

Mr Davey is either incredibly ignorant or the worst type of political liar.
"Declining car use" Utter, utter rubbish. New car registrations rose 5.3% last year. Why? Because the population of Britain, especially South East England is increasing and unsurprisingly the usage of ALL forms of transport; buses trains, bikes and cars is also increasing. Given the measures taken in the city centre to reduce vehicle traffic by making it 'hard' the provision of Park and Ride for visitors should have been the #1 priority. Mr Davey is either incredibly ignorant or the worst type of political liar. Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
  • Score: 0

8:21am Fri 1 Feb 13

upsidedowntuctuc says...

Davey is as an empty vessel as one could ever encounter..
Inane grin with nothing behind it and nothing between the ears.
Unfortunately he is chair (small 'c' in his case) of the Transport Committee and advised by officials that have had their own way for years and have been removed from reality at the same time.
You'd have to go back to the dark days of Richard Stanton and 'Militant Tendency' to find another group previous to the Greens ruining this City for their own agendas rather than the wishes of the residents.
The Committee and Department have gone renegade and need a full scrutiny or even a review of what they are up to.
Davey is as an empty vessel as one could ever encounter.. Inane grin with nothing behind it and nothing between the ears. Unfortunately he is chair (small 'c' in his case) of the Transport Committee and advised by officials that have had their own way for years and have been removed from reality at the same time. You'd have to go back to the dark days of Richard Stanton and 'Militant Tendency' to find another group previous to the Greens ruining this City for their own agendas rather than the wishes of the residents. The Committee and Department have gone renegade and need a full scrutiny or even a review of what they are up to. upsidedowntuctuc
  • Score: 0

8:23am Fri 1 Feb 13

Cgull says...

How can the greens oppose park and ride? They now prefer 1000s of vehicles clogging the city on the way to the city centre car parks.
You couldnt make it up.
How much longer do we have to put up with these greens?
How can the greens oppose park and ride? They now prefer 1000s of vehicles clogging the city on the way to the city centre car parks. You couldnt make it up. How much longer do we have to put up with these greens? Cgull
  • Score: 0

8:46am Fri 1 Feb 13

Charismatic Andrew says...

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Ian davey said park and ride was undeliverable. Ian Davey is possibly one of the most incompetent councillors this city has endured and there have been a few.
Mr Davey why not take up bowls instead of ruining our town.
It might be difficult - I think you'll find the Greens have made cut to bowls in the City!

--------------------
--------------------
-------------

I like the way Phelim MacCafferty says "Be in no doubt we're doing the right thing." ......... what a horribly arrogant thing to say ... we'll be the judge of whether you're doing the right thing sunshine!
[quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: Ian davey said park and ride was undeliverable. Ian Davey is possibly one of the most incompetent councillors this city has endured and there have been a few. Mr Davey why not take up bowls instead of ruining our town.[/p][/quote]It might be difficult - I think you'll find the Greens have made cut to bowls in the City! -------------------- -------------------- ------------- I like the way Phelim MacCafferty says "Be in no doubt we're doing the right thing." ......... what a horribly arrogant thing to say ... we'll be the judge of whether you're doing the right thing sunshine! Charismatic Andrew
  • Score: 0

8:50am Fri 1 Feb 13

8273661 says...

did I read that right?

""In times of austerity it's an expensive and inefficient use of public money particularly in an era of declining car use."

Also, what about the drainage requirements of building these homes in Toad Hall (Hole) - I assume it will need to flow into the existing system - what a load of c***. Does it have the capacity?

The Uckfield link is a good call though
did I read that right? ""In times of austerity it's an expensive and inefficient use of public money particularly in an era of declining car use." Also, what about the drainage requirements of building these homes in Toad Hall (Hole) - I assume it will need to flow into the existing system - what a load of c***. Does it have the capacity? The Uckfield link is a good call though 8273661
  • Score: 0

8:53am Fri 1 Feb 13

HJarrs says...

You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!
You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about. You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments. Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009! Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived. The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about! HJarrs
  • Score: 0

8:57am Fri 1 Feb 13

8273661 says...

HJarrs wrote:
You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!
"You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it,"

I guess many of the ppl commenting kind of live here so not really the target market...
[quote][p][bold]HJarrs[/bold] wrote: You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about. You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments. Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009! Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived. The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about![/p][/quote]"You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it," I guess many of the ppl commenting kind of live here so not really the target market... 8273661
  • Score: 0

8:57am Fri 1 Feb 13

Morpheus says...

I don't understand why they haven't included a nuclear waste dump. The government will pay lots of money if we agreed. Under King's House would be a good place.
I don't understand why they haven't included a nuclear waste dump. The government will pay lots of money if we agreed. Under King's House would be a good place. Morpheus
  • Score: 0

9:03am Fri 1 Feb 13

Glenda says...

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. Glenda
  • Score: 0

9:09am Fri 1 Feb 13

jyan says...

Can we ban the Greens from future councils?
Can we ban the Greens from future councils? jyan
  • Score: 0

9:12am Fri 1 Feb 13

Charismatic Andrew says...

Let's not get too excited about this "blueprint till 2030" ..... these City Plans or 'Core Strategies' as they used to be known are drawn up every few years.

Historically the political landscape in Brighton and Hove has changed very frequently. No reason to assume this will change in the future.

The next "blueprint for the City" will no doubt look very different!
Let's not get too excited about this "blueprint till 2030" ..... these City Plans or 'Core Strategies' as they used to be known are drawn up every few years. Historically the political landscape in Brighton and Hove has changed very frequently. No reason to assume this will change in the future. The next "blueprint for the City" will no doubt look very different! Charismatic Andrew
  • Score: 0

9:21am Fri 1 Feb 13

janetandjohn says...

Can someone explain to me why Roger French and Brighton and Hove buses were suspiciously relieved to hear that there would be no park and ride scheme?
Can someone explain to me why Roger French and Brighton and Hove buses were suspiciously relieved to hear that there would be no park and ride scheme? janetandjohn
  • Score: 0

9:53am Fri 1 Feb 13

NickBrt says...

Green Amendment:- Turn the entire City into a Travellers site and HQ of Smash EDO - AGREED.
Green Amendment:- Turn the entire City into a Travellers site and HQ of Smash EDO - AGREED. NickBrt
  • Score: 0

10:15am Fri 1 Feb 13

s_james says...

Glad to see it went through. The Greens aren't opposed to park and ride - they just recognise it is undeliverable in the next 20 years - it its undeliverable its pointless putting it in the Plan as it risks the plan being rejected by government.

Those who want a referendum on the greens - there's one planned, its called the City Council elections 2015!!

Toads Hole Valley would be developed even if it wasn't in the Plan, inclusion gives the council more control over what goes there - surely a good thing!
Glad to see it went through. The Greens aren't opposed to park and ride - they just recognise it is undeliverable in the next 20 years - it its undeliverable its pointless putting it in the Plan as it risks the plan being rejected by government. Those who want a referendum on the greens - there's one planned, its called the City Council elections 2015!! Toads Hole Valley would be developed even if it wasn't in the Plan, inclusion gives the council more control over what goes there - surely a good thing! s_james
  • Score: 0

10:37am Fri 1 Feb 13

The Heretic says...

Kate234 wrote:
A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?
That's a good idea.
Question: If you can buy a 'PlusBus' train ticket for a small additional premium, why can't those coming to our City by car do the same at an out of town car park? Voila! Funding for P&R !

Just a thought....
[quote][p][bold]Kate234[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]A Watcher[/bold] wrote: How about a referendum on Park & Ride?[/p][/quote]That's a good idea.[/p][/quote]Question: If you can buy a 'PlusBus' train ticket for a small additional premium, why can't those coming to our City by car do the same at an out of town car park? Voila! Funding for P&R ! Just a thought.... The Heretic
  • Score: 0

10:42am Fri 1 Feb 13

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit says...

HJarrs wrote:
You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!
No, you're quite right, I wouldn't use it as I actually live in Brighton. The P&R would be for visitors, you know, tourists as Brighton is a tourist town not just a 'local place for local people'.

And please DON'T say they can all come by public transport. The trains in summer are absolutely packed.
[quote][p][bold]HJarrs[/bold] wrote: You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about. You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments. Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009! Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived. The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about![/p][/quote]No, you're quite right, I wouldn't use it as I actually live in Brighton. The P&R would be for visitors, you know, tourists as Brighton is a tourist town not just a 'local place for local people'. And please DON'T say they can all come by public transport. The trains in summer are absolutely packed. Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
  • Score: 0

10:48am Fri 1 Feb 13

gusset snatcher says...

Will the last person in Brighton please turn off the lights
Will the last person in Brighton please turn off the lights gusset snatcher
  • Score: 0

10:50am Fri 1 Feb 13

Crystal Ball says...

What a shower.
What a shower. Crystal Ball
  • Score: 0

11:09am Fri 1 Feb 13

saveHOVE says...

Politicians PREY on resident ignorance and more commenters here than is healthy have gullibly bought all the park and ride guff that ALL the political parties have chucked about for decades when looking for something to throw at the Administration they arn't in.

Identify an achievable site or stop it. Every inch of the city has been looked at to try to find somewhere to put one. And NO politician is credible when barking about whoever is in the Administration on this. It's got to stop.

There was once a train station in Kemp Town. Finding a way to reinstate that would help....partly underground? People are perverse. They will not come here unless they can drive here or get here by train in peace.

And please note the City Plan is a permanent document that expires in 2030 and once the bits that follow this Core Strategy overview bit are in place that is IT regardless of who is in power.

Supplementary Planning Documents can be raised to address new issues and Planning Briefs for specific development sites can be raised - viable Neighbourhood Plans may even emerge (though I have my doubts) - but each and every one will have to accord with The City Plan.

I am SO sick of hearing about b*****y Park and Ride. It really is undeliverable and would you want to see the buses stuffed with bewildered out-of-towners complete with wet and smelly beach kit, suitcases, portable barbecues and beer chiller boxes and the rest anyway? Really. Would you?
Politicians PREY on resident ignorance and more commenters here than is healthy have gullibly bought all the park and ride guff that ALL the political parties have chucked about for decades when looking for something to throw at the Administration they arn't in. Identify an achievable site or stop it. Every inch of the city has been looked at to try to find somewhere to put one. And NO politician is credible when barking about whoever is in the Administration on this. It's got to stop. There was once a train station in Kemp Town. Finding a way to reinstate that would help....partly underground? People are perverse. They will not come here unless they can drive here or get here by train in peace. And please note the City Plan is a permanent document that expires in 2030 and once the bits that follow this Core Strategy overview bit are in place that is IT regardless of who is in power. Supplementary Planning Documents can be raised to address new issues and Planning Briefs for specific development sites can be raised - viable Neighbourhood Plans may even emerge (though I have my doubts) - but each and every one will have to accord with The City Plan. I am SO sick of hearing about b*****y Park and Ride. It really is undeliverable and would you want to see the buses stuffed with bewildered out-of-towners complete with wet and smelly beach kit, suitcases, portable barbecues and beer chiller boxes and the rest anyway? Really. Would you? saveHOVE
  • Score: 0

11:24am Fri 1 Feb 13

HJarrs says...

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit wrote:
HJarrs wrote:
You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!
No, you're quite right, I wouldn't use it as I actually live in Brighton. The P&R would be for visitors, you know, tourists as Brighton is a tourist town not just a 'local place for local people'.

And please DON'T say they can all come by public transport. The trains in summer are absolutely packed.
I absolutely agree with you that a P&R would be very helpful to relieve congestion in the summer, but 3 months summer weekend use a year would not pay the bills for a spanking new car park. A P&R would have to be a solution for commuters and tourists as it is the commuters that are the major source of traffic year round. I have suspicion that most commuting is within B&H and so a P&R would be irrelevant to most commuters anyway. As I say, I support a P&R if it meets my criteria.
[quote][p][bold]Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]HJarrs[/bold] wrote: You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about. You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments. Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009! Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived. The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about![/p][/quote]No, you're quite right, I wouldn't use it as I actually live in Brighton. The P&R would be for visitors, you know, tourists as Brighton is a tourist town not just a 'local place for local people'. And please DON'T say they can all come by public transport. The trains in summer are absolutely packed.[/p][/quote]I absolutely agree with you that a P&R would be very helpful to relieve congestion in the summer, but 3 months summer weekend use a year would not pay the bills for a spanking new car park. A P&R would have to be a solution for commuters and tourists as it is the commuters that are the major source of traffic year round. I have suspicion that most commuting is within B&H and so a P&R would be irrelevant to most commuters anyway. As I say, I support a P&R if it meets my criteria. HJarrs
  • Score: 0

11:34am Fri 1 Feb 13

The Heretic says...

The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway.

It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place.

How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.
The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway. It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place. How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm. The Heretic
  • Score: 0

12:20pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit says...

Surprisingly, despite my earlier posts, I actually agree with those who oppose P&R, it would be an expensive solution to an invented problem. I'm only in favour because successive administrations have tried to curtail car use in the town centre (with more schemes planned) and the visitors have to park somewhere.

Assuming that we DO actually want visitors there are two solutions: Firstly either a giant car park about where Braypool is, which could also during the winter double-up as P&R for the Amex stadium. Or secondly reverse the recent traffic/parking schemes and encourage visitors to drive into the town centre. Remembering that the trains are packed - which is it to be?
Surprisingly, despite my earlier posts, I actually agree with those who oppose P&R, it would be an expensive solution to an invented problem. I'm only in favour because successive administrations have tried to curtail car use in the town centre (with more schemes planned) and the visitors have to park somewhere. Assuming that we DO actually want visitors there are two solutions: Firstly either a giant car park about where Braypool is, which could also during the winter double-up as P&R for the Amex stadium. Or secondly reverse the recent traffic/parking schemes and encourage visitors to drive into the town centre. Remembering that the trains are packed - which is it to be? Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
  • Score: 0

12:27pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Hovite says...

700 homes for Toad Hall and 400 for the King Alfred, even though Toad Hall is at least 15 times the size. Yet again 2+2=3

Toad Hall is fit for at least 3000 homes.
700 homes for Toad Hall and 400 for the King Alfred, even though Toad Hall is at least 15 times the size. Yet again 2+2=3 Toad Hall is fit for at least 3000 homes. Hovite
  • Score: -1

12:32pm Fri 1 Feb 13

saveHOVE says...

Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use
Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too. The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use saveHOVE
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Fri 1 Feb 13

wippasnapper says...

“In an era of declining car use”.
What planet do these green councilors live on have they not noticed over the past decade the increase of cars use on our roads what they should have said is WE want a car free zone city, but lets be honest if the green’s had there way B&H would be a petrel diesel free zone with no park and ride scheme.
“In an era of declining car use”. What planet do these green councilors live on have they not noticed over the past decade the increase of cars use on our roads what they should have said is WE want a car free zone city, but lets be honest if the green’s had there way B&H would be a petrel diesel free zone with no park and ride scheme. wippasnapper
  • Score: 0

1:06pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Bob_The_Ferret says...

The green's illogical and pathological hatred of the idea of park and ride, in preference to permanent congestion on the arterial routes of the city is unbelievable.

Why not draw all of their transport plans to the logical conclusion, and place a large sign at the end of the A23 saying 'Feck off, not welcome here' and place a pair of gates across London road, lock it and throw the key in the sea.
The green's illogical and pathological hatred of the idea of park and ride, in preference to permanent congestion on the arterial routes of the city is unbelievable. Why not draw all of their transport plans to the logical conclusion, and place a large sign at the end of the A23 saying 'Feck off, not welcome here' and place a pair of gates across London road, lock it and throw the key in the sea. Bob_The_Ferret
  • Score: 0

1:14pm Fri 1 Feb 13

wippasnapper says...

Council leader Jason Kitcat said: "Once in a generation does a decision like this come before us in the council "This will affect our residents and visitors today and those not yet born.

Geoffrey Theobald said: "It's a sad day for democracy when fundamental decisions are being taken by officers that were not elected. That cannot be right."

We the council tenants voted to keep the council to run our city, we did not vote to have council officers making designation along side councilors but it seem the green councilors has a different approach to running this city for use and it dose not seem to matter to them what we feel about some of there decisions because they push ahead regardless.
Council leader Jason Kitcat said: "Once in a generation does a decision like this come before us in the council "This will affect our residents and visitors today and those not yet born. Geoffrey Theobald said: "It's a sad day for democracy when fundamental decisions are being taken by officers that were not elected. That cannot be right." We the council tenants voted to keep the council to run our city, we did not vote to have council officers making designation along side councilors but it seem the green councilors has a different approach to running this city for use and it dose not seem to matter to them what we feel about some of there decisions because they push ahead regardless. wippasnapper
  • Score: 0

1:38pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Hovite says...

saveHOVE wrote:
Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use
Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based.

Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.
[quote][p][bold]saveHOVE[/bold] wrote: Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too. The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use[/p][/quote]Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based. Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike. Hovite
  • Score: 0

2:01pm Fri 1 Feb 13

boblat says...

The Heretic wrote:
Kate234 wrote:
A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?
That's a good idea.
Question: If you can buy a 'PlusBus' train ticket for a small additional premium, why can't those coming to our City by car do the same at an out of town car park? Voila! Funding for P&R !

Just a thought....
Wow! Just one brain thinking along the right lines??

We know the answer, but it's too controversial for all you thickos to comprehend

Just have to wait and see!! Ha!
[quote][p][bold]The Heretic[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Kate234[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]A Watcher[/bold] wrote: How about a referendum on Park & Ride?[/p][/quote]That's a good idea.[/p][/quote]Question: If you can buy a 'PlusBus' train ticket for a small additional premium, why can't those coming to our City by car do the same at an out of town car park? Voila! Funding for P&R ! Just a thought....[/p][/quote]Wow! Just one brain thinking along the right lines?? We know the answer, but it's too controversial for all you thickos to comprehend Just have to wait and see!! Ha! boblat
  • Score: 0

3:22pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Hovite says...

Park and Donkey Ride would be more appropriate for this council.

Surprised they haven't already proposed reintroducing them, and they don't go more than 20mph either. I've never seen a fast donkey so I am sure they are well within the limit.
Park and Donkey Ride would be more appropriate for this council. Surprised they haven't already proposed reintroducing them, and they don't go more than 20mph either. I've never seen a fast donkey so I am sure they are well within the limit. Hovite
  • Score: 0

3:48pm Fri 1 Feb 13

saveHOVE says...

Hovite wrote:
saveHOVE wrote:
Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use
Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based.

Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.
The city has ambitions to be about more than just the seafront. All eggs in one basket? Bad idea.

Plus people living here - mostly north of the bi-secting railway are shortchanged in the facilities department and made to exist as little more than dormitories.
[quote][p][bold]Hovite[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]saveHOVE[/bold] wrote: Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too. The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use[/p][/quote]Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based. Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.[/p][/quote]The city has ambitions to be about more than just the seafront. All eggs in one basket? Bad idea. Plus people living here - mostly north of the bi-secting railway are shortchanged in the facilities department and made to exist as little more than dormitories. saveHOVE
  • Score: 0

3:55pm Fri 1 Feb 13

tinker111 says...

Greens will be gone in two+ years but we will be left to suffer the damage done in there term ,we could of course get another batch of Greenies at uni to help them next time round GOD help this city.
Greens will be gone in two+ years but we will be left to suffer the damage done in there term ,we could of course get another batch of Greenies at uni to help them next time round GOD help this city. tinker111
  • Score: 0

4:04pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Crystal Ball says...

Bob_The_Ferret wrote:
The green's illogical and pathological hatred of the idea of park and ride, in preference to permanent congestion on the arterial routes of the city is unbelievable.

Why not draw all of their transport plans to the logical conclusion, and place a large sign at the end of the A23 saying 'Feck off, not welcome here' and place a pair of gates across London road, lock it and throw the key in the sea.
Green Council thinking...

1. Do not develop park-and-ride hence car use continues.

2. Approve myriad road schemes with related works to burden road users but with the allure of "easier access to the town".

3. Promote bicycle use as a result of point 2.

4. Attempt to say "We told you so".
[quote][p][bold]Bob_The_Ferret[/bold] wrote: The green's illogical and pathological hatred of the idea of park and ride, in preference to permanent congestion on the arterial routes of the city is unbelievable. Why not draw all of their transport plans to the logical conclusion, and place a large sign at the end of the A23 saying 'Feck off, not welcome here' and place a pair of gates across London road, lock it and throw the key in the sea.[/p][/quote]Green Council thinking... 1. Do not develop park-and-ride hence car use continues. 2. Approve myriad road schemes with related works to burden road users but with the allure of "easier access to the town". 3. Promote bicycle use as a result of point 2. 4. Attempt to say "We told you so". Crystal Ball
  • Score: 0

4:32pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Hovite says...

saveHOVE wrote:
Hovite wrote:
saveHOVE wrote:
Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use
Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based.

Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.
The city has ambitions to be about more than just the seafront. All eggs in one basket? Bad idea.

Plus people living here - mostly north of the bi-secting railway are shortchanged in the facilities department and made to exist as little more than dormitories.
What are these other ambitions? This city was built on the seafront, this is where our history is, and without it we are nothing.

Maybe you have different ambitions for the city, making Goldstone retail park the centre of Hove?

If you can purchase all this land and its surrounding land down Newton Road,Sackville trading Estate and the Hove Bus site, negotiate with all owners, you had better start now, otherwise this is complete fantasy.
[quote][p][bold]saveHOVE[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Hovite[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]saveHOVE[/bold] wrote: Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too. The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use[/p][/quote]Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based. Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.[/p][/quote]The city has ambitions to be about more than just the seafront. All eggs in one basket? Bad idea. Plus people living here - mostly north of the bi-secting railway are shortchanged in the facilities department and made to exist as little more than dormitories.[/p][/quote]What are these other ambitions? This city was built on the seafront, this is where our history is, and without it we are nothing. Maybe you have different ambitions for the city, making Goldstone retail park the centre of Hove? If you can purchase all this land and its surrounding land down Newton Road,Sackville trading Estate and the Hove Bus site, negotiate with all owners, you had better start now, otherwise this is complete fantasy. Hovite
  • Score: 0

6:35pm Fri 1 Feb 13

terrace cred. says...

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?
would we need to bus in the voters?

where's the proposed cable car 'twixt to of albion hill and brighton station?
and the ski lift up southover st?
[quote][p][bold]A Watcher[/bold] wrote: How about a referendum on Park & Ride?[/p][/quote]would we need to bus in the voters? where's the proposed cable car 'twixt to of albion hill and brighton station? and the ski lift up southover st? terrace cred.
  • Score: 0

8:07pm Fri 1 Feb 13

Maxwell's Ghost says...

It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year.
That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.
It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year. That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU. Maxwell's Ghost
  • Score: 0

9:28pm Fri 1 Feb 13

rolivan says...

The Heretic wrote:
The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway.

It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place.

How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.
Are you saying that Elm Grove School now uses the Cutting between Hartington rd and the entrance to the tunnel as a playground it never did when I went to School there?Also they could have buit something like the Docklands Lightrailway and why is it that Croydon can have a Tram System and Brighton and Hove cannot?
[quote][p][bold]The Heretic[/bold] wrote: The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway. It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place. How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.[/p][/quote]Are you saying that Elm Grove School now uses the Cutting between Hartington rd and the entrance to the tunnel as a playground it never did when I went to School there?Also they could have buit something like the Docklands Lightrailway and why is it that Croydon can have a Tram System and Brighton and Hove cannot? rolivan
  • Score: 0

8:43pm Sat 2 Feb 13

thevoiceoftruth says...

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year.
That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.
Amazing isn't it? The whole of the EU is in massive debt, yet there is still all this funding available for pointless projects. i
[quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year. That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.[/p][/quote]Amazing isn't it? The whole of the EU is in massive debt, yet there is still all this funding available for pointless projects. i thevoiceoftruth
  • Score: 0

8:45pm Sat 2 Feb 13

thevoiceoftruth says...

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year.
That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.
Amazing isn't it? The whole of the EU is in massive debt, yet there is still all this funding available for pointless projects.
[quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year. That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.[/p][/quote]Amazing isn't it? The whole of the EU is in massive debt, yet there is still all this funding available for pointless projects. thevoiceoftruth
  • Score: 0

7:57pm Sun 3 Feb 13

ghost bus driver says...

rolivan wrote:
The Heretic wrote:
The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway.

It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place.

How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.
Are you saying that Elm Grove School now uses the Cutting between Hartington rd and the entrance to the tunnel as a playground it never did when I went to School there?Also they could have built something like the Docklands Lightrailway and why is it that Croydon can have a Tram System and Brighton and Hove cannot?
The cutting was filled in and the tunnel mouth buried. I assume the brickwork is still there under the ground
[quote][p][bold]rolivan[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Heretic[/bold] wrote: The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway. It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place. How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.[/p][/quote]Are you saying that Elm Grove School now uses the Cutting between Hartington rd and the entrance to the tunnel as a playground it never did when I went to School there?Also they could have built something like the Docklands Lightrailway and why is it that Croydon can have a Tram System and Brighton and Hove cannot?[/p][/quote]The cutting was filled in and the tunnel mouth buried. I assume the brickwork is still there under the ground ghost bus driver
  • Score: 0

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