Brighton and Hove blueprint till 2030 approved (From The Argus)

Ian davey said park and ride was undeliverable. Ian Davey is possibly one of the most incompetent councillors this city has endured and there have been a few.
Mr Davey why not take up bowls instead of ruining our town.

How about a referendum on Park & Ride?

1.5 million to cover the cost of the 20mph blanket limit... and yet no funds available for park and ride which would produce some revenue.

Hopefully the greens (with a small 'g') will be out in two years.

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?

That's a good idea.

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?

How about a referendum on removing the Green council from power?

If these developments do go ahead, this would be great news for the thousands of construction workers struggling to find work.

......Or will the Eastern Europeans get there first?

"Declining car use" Utter, utter rubbish. New car registrations rose 5.3% last year. Why? Because the population of Britain, especially South East England is increasing and unsurprisingly the usage of ALL forms of transport; buses trains, bikes and cars is also increasing. Given the measures taken in the city centre to reduce vehicle traffic by making it 'hard' the provision of Park and Ride for visitors should have been the #1 priority.

Mr Davey is either incredibly ignorant or the worst type of political liar.

Davey is as an empty vessel as one could ever encounter..
Inane grin with nothing behind it and nothing between the ears.
Unfortunately he is chair (small 'c' in his case) of the Transport Committee and advised by officials that have had their own way for years and have been removed from reality at the same time.
You'd have to go back to the dark days of Richard Stanton and 'Militant Tendency' to find another group previous to the Greens ruining this City for their own agendas rather than the wishes of the residents.
The Committee and Department have gone renegade and need a full scrutiny or even a review of what they are up to.

How can the greens oppose park and ride? They now prefer 1000s of vehicles clogging the city on the way to the city centre car parks.
You couldnt make it up.
How much longer do we have to put up with these greens?

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Ian davey said park and ride was undeliverable. Ian Davey is possibly one of the most incompetent councillors this city has endured and there have been a few.
Mr Davey why not take up bowls instead of ruining our town.

It might be difficult - I think you'll find the Greens have made cut to bowls in the City!

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I like the way Phelim MacCafferty says "Be in no doubt we're doing the right thing." ......... what a horribly arrogant thing to say ... we'll be the judge of whether you're doing the right thing sunshine!

did I read that right?

""In times of austerity it's an expensive and inefficient use of public money particularly in an era of declining car use."

Also, what about the drainage requirements of building these homes in Toad Hall (Hole) - I assume it will need to flow into the existing system - what a load of c***. Does it have the capacity?

The Uckfield link is a good call though

You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!

HJarrs wrote:
You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!

"You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it,"

I guess many of the ppl commenting kind of live here so not really the target market...

I don't understand why they haven't included a nuclear waste dump. The government will pay lots of money if we agreed. Under King's House would be a good place.

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

Can we ban the Greens from future councils?

Let's not get too excited about this "blueprint till 2030" ..... these City Plans or 'Core Strategies' as they used to be known are drawn up every few years.

Historically the political landscape in Brighton and Hove has changed very frequently. No reason to assume this will change in the future.

The next "blueprint for the City" will no doubt look very different!

Can someone explain to me why Roger French and Brighton and Hove buses were suspiciously relieved to hear that there would be no park and ride scheme?

Green Amendment:- Turn the entire City into a Travellers site and HQ of Smash EDO - AGREED.

Glad to see it went through. The Greens aren't opposed to park and ride - they just recognise it is undeliverable in the next 20 years - it its undeliverable its pointless putting it in the Plan as it risks the plan being rejected by government.

Those who want a referendum on the greens - there's one planned, its called the City Council elections 2015!!

Toads Hole Valley would be developed even if it wasn't in the Plan, inclusion gives the council more control over what goes there - surely a good thing!

Kate234 wrote:

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?

That's a good idea.

Question: If you can buy a 'PlusBus' train ticket for a small additional premium, why can't those coming to our City by car do the same at an out of town car park? Voila! Funding for P&R !

Just a thought....

HJarrs wrote:
You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!

No, you're quite right, I wouldn't use it as I actually live in Brighton. The P&R would be for visitors, you know, tourists as Brighton is a tourist town not just a 'local place for local people'.

And please DON'T say they can all come by public transport. The trains in summer are absolutely packed.

Will the last person in Brighton please turn off the lights

What a shower.

Politicians PREY on resident ignorance and more commenters here than is healthy have gullibly bought all the park and ride guff that ALL the political parties have chucked about for decades when looking for something to throw at the Administration they arn't in.

Identify an achievable site or stop it. Every inch of the city has been looked at to try to find somewhere to put one. And NO politician is credible when barking about whoever is in the Administration on this. It's got to stop.

There was once a train station in Kemp Town. Finding a way to reinstate that would help....partly underground? People are perverse. They will not come here unless they can drive here or get here by train in peace.

And please note the City Plan is a permanent document that expires in 2030 and once the bits that follow this Core Strategy overview bit are in place that is IT regardless of who is in power.

Supplementary Planning Documents can be raised to address new issues and Planning Briefs for specific development sites can be raised - viable Neighbourhood Plans may even emerge (though I have my doubts) - but each and every one will have to accord with The City Plan.

I am SO sick of hearing about b*****y Park and Ride. It really is undeliverable and would you want to see the buses stuffed with bewildered out-of-towners complete with wet and smelly beach kit, suitcases, portable barbecues and beer chiller boxes and the rest anyway? Really. Would you?

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit wrote:

HJarrs wrote:
You lot above are funny. If there had have been a park and ride you wouldn't use it, you would complain about location, cost and anything else you could moan about.

You may recall a recent article in the Argus that I think Tony Mernagh, of the Brighton and Hove Business Forum (appologies Tony if it was not you!) described how the council had spent 20 years looking for funding and a site without success. A park and ride will cost £20-£40 million for a thousand spaces at least and will never pay for itself unless allied with other developments.

Lets not forget that there was a small park and ride at the Withdean but the Conservatives scrapped the bus service in 2009!

Personally, I would support a park and ride if funding from government or development could be found, that the park and ride could be demonstrated to significantly cut traffic in B&H, than running costs including buses were not a drain on the public purse and we did not concrete over lots of green space in order to house steel boxes. By the way, I think this can be acheived.

The plan must be good if that is all you have to complain about!

No, you're quite right, I wouldn't use it as I actually live in Brighton. The P&R would be for visitors, you know, tourists as Brighton is a tourist town not just a 'local place for local people'.

And please DON'T say they can all come by public transport. The trains in summer are absolutely packed.

I absolutely agree with you that a P&R would be very helpful to relieve congestion in the summer, but 3 months summer weekend use a year would not pay the bills for a spanking new car park. A P&R would have to be a solution for commuters and tourists as it is the commuters that are the major source of traffic year round. I have suspicion that most commuting is within B&H and so a P&R would be irrelevant to most commuters anyway. As I say, I support a P&R if it meets my criteria.

The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway.

It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place.

How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.

Surprisingly, despite my earlier posts, I actually agree with those who oppose P&R, it would be an expensive solution to an invented problem. I'm only in favour because successive administrations have tried to curtail car use in the town centre (with more schemes planned) and the visitors have to park somewhere.

Assuming that we DO actually want visitors there are two solutions: Firstly either a giant car park about where Braypool is, which could also during the winter double-up as P&R for the Amex stadium. Or secondly reverse the recent traffic/parking schemes and encourage visitors to drive into the town centre. Remembering that the trains are packed - which is it to be?

700 homes for Toad Hall and 400 for the King Alfred, even though Toad Hall is at least 15 times the size. Yet again 2+2=3

Toad Hall is fit for at least 3000 homes.

Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use

“In an era of declining car use”.
What planet do these green councilors live on have they not noticed over the past decade the increase of cars use on our roads what they should have said is WE want a car free zone city, but lets be honest if the green’s had there way B&H would be a petrel diesel free zone with no park and ride scheme.

The green's illogical and pathological hatred of the idea of park and ride, in preference to permanent congestion on the arterial routes of the city is unbelievable.

Why not draw all of their transport plans to the logical conclusion, and place a large sign at the end of the A23 saying 'Feck off, not welcome here' and place a pair of gates across London road, lock it and throw the key in the sea.

Council leader Jason Kitcat said: "Once in a generation does a decision like this come before us in the council "This will affect our residents and visitors today and those not yet born.

Geoffrey Theobald said: "It's a sad day for democracy when fundamental decisions are being taken by officers that were not elected. That cannot be right."

We the council tenants voted to keep the council to run our city, we did not vote to have council officers making designation along side councilors but it seem the green councilors has a different approach to running this city for use and it dose not seem to matter to them what we feel about some of there decisions because they push ahead regardless.

saveHOVE wrote:
Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use

Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based.

Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.

The Heretic wrote:

Kate234 wrote:

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?

That's a good idea.

Question: If you can buy a 'PlusBus' train ticket for a small additional premium, why can't those coming to our City by car do the same at an out of town car park? Voila! Funding for P&R !

Just a thought....

Wow! Just one brain thinking along the right lines??

We know the answer, but it's too controversial for all you thickos to comprehend

Just have to wait and see!! Ha!

Park and Donkey Ride would be more appropriate for this council.

Surprised they haven't already proposed reintroducing them, and they don't go more than 20mph either. I've never seen a fast donkey so I am sure they are well within the limit.

Hovite wrote:

saveHOVE wrote:
Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use

Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based.

Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.

The city has ambitions to be about more than just the seafront. All eggs in one basket? Bad idea.

Plus people living here - mostly north of the bi-secting railway are shortchanged in the facilities department and made to exist as little more than dormitories.

Greens will be gone in two+ years but we will be left to suffer the damage done in there term ,we could of course get another batch of Greenies at uni to help them next time round GOD help this city.

Bob_The_Ferret wrote:
The green's illogical and pathological hatred of the idea of park and ride, in preference to permanent congestion on the arterial routes of the city is unbelievable.

Why not draw all of their transport plans to the logical conclusion, and place a large sign at the end of the A23 saying 'Feck off, not welcome here' and place a pair of gates across London road, lock it and throw the key in the sea.

Green Council thinking...

1. Do not develop park-and-ride hence car use continues.

2. Approve myriad road schemes with related works to burden road users but with the allure of "easier access to the town".

3. Promote bicycle use as a result of point 2.

4. Attempt to say "We told you so".

saveHOVE wrote:

Hovite wrote:

saveHOVE wrote:
Growing Hove ever further northwards into the downland area has not been matched by shifting facilities northward too.

The area from the rail lines west of Hove Station up to Old Shoreham Road should be developed as a natural centre for Hove around which activities like shopping and leisure could more easily pivot - rather than cling to and rely on use, and failures in use, of the areas provided for shops, etc. more than a century ago up George Street and along Blatchington Road. These are only fit for local use, not citywide destination use

Doesn't make sense. Every seaside resort's centre, shopping and leisure are naturally seaside based.

Centre doesn't litterally mean centre, it's means a focal point of activity, and this is where people are drawn, local residents and tourists alike.

The city has ambitions to be about more than just the seafront. All eggs in one basket? Bad idea.

Plus people living here - mostly north of the bi-secting railway are shortchanged in the facilities department and made to exist as little more than dormitories.

What are these other ambitions? This city was built on the seafront, this is where our history is, and without it we are nothing.

Maybe you have different ambitions for the city, making Goldstone retail park the centre of Hove?

If you can purchase all this land and its surrounding land down Newton Road,Sackville trading Estate and the Hove Bus site, negotiate with all owners, you had better start now, otherwise this is complete fantasy.

A Watcher wrote:
How about a referendum on Park & Ride?

would we need to bus in the voters?

where's the proposed cable car 'twixt to of albion hill and brighton station?
and the ski lift up southover st?

It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year.
That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.

The Heretic wrote:
The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway.

It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place.

How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.

Are you saying that Elm Grove School now uses the Cutting between Hartington rd and the entrance to the tunnel as a playground it never did when I went to School there?Also they could have buit something like the Docklands Lightrailway and why is it that Croydon can have a Tram System and Brighton and Hove cannot?

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year.
That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.

Amazing isn't it? The whole of the EU is in massive debt, yet there is still all this funding available for pointless projects. i

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
It's queer saying that P&R wont pay for itself for years when the council is spending £6million on repainting a cycle lane which will remove less than one per cent of traffic from the Lewes Road and to serve two unis which are seeing a drop in students attending campus because of off site learning and which are shut for at least four months of the year.
That is the EU machine gobbling up tax payers money and idiot councillors claiming it's ok to spend it because it's come from the EU.

Amazing isn't it? The whole of the EU is in massive debt, yet there is still all this funding available for pointless projects.

rolivan wrote:

The Heretic wrote:
The Kemp Town branch was single track. Getting past the Vogue gyratory and industrial estates (off Lewes Road and Freshfield) plus losing Elm Grove School's play area would prevent re-instating a line which was only really useful for getting coal (most of the way) to the gasworks anyway.

It was only really built (at great cost) to keep the Brighton company's competitor, the South Eastern, out of the area in the first place.

How about extending Volks Railway under the coast road, via the Pavillion and tunnel via North Road and Queens Road to the station? For only a few 100's of millions, we could have a uniquely inappropriate solution to a problem which only gets bad when it's sunny and warm.

Are you saying that Elm Grove School now uses the Cutting between Hartington rd and the entrance to the tunnel as a playground it never did when I went to School there?Also they could have built something like the Docklands Lightrailway and why is it that Croydon can have a Tram System and Brighton and Hove cannot?

The cutting was filled in and the tunnel mouth buried. I assume the brickwork is still there under the ground