20mph signs up across Brighton and Hove before limit is introduced

1:00pm Wednesday 13th February 2013 in News By Tim Ridgway, Local government reporter

A new 20mph marking in Grand Avenue, Hove A new 20mph marking in Grand Avenue, Hove

Motorists have been left in a spin after 20mph signs began appearing in central Brighton and Hove – months before the new restrictions come into force.

The 20mph restrictions are set to be introduced in more than 500 streets across Brighton and Hove city centre in early April.

However, two months before the limits “go live”, highways crews are already painting signs on the affected streets.

Motorists have branded the decision “stupid” as they are left in two minds as to what speed they must travel at.

Motorist lobbyist Steve Percy, who sits on the city’s transport partnership, said: “How stupid – it’s not thoughtful.

“They may as well paint an ice cream on the road so we can all ask when the free ice cream is coming.”

Councillors gave the go-ahead to the 20mph proposal covering shopping and residential streets last month.

The local authority claims the move will improve road safety and air quality while making the city a better place to live, work in and visit.

Boundaries

The seven-kilometre area in the first phase stretches from Sackville Road, Hove in the west to Freshfield Road, Brighton, in the east.

The northern boundary will be Old Shoreham Road and New England Road.

Among the first signs to be painted was at the junction of Kingsway and Grand Avenue, Hove.

Labour councillor Gill Mitchell said: “We raised concerns at the time over the implementation of this scheme and the council should have published a start date for which the whole scheme goes live.”

A council spokeswoman said: “The council is starting to put up signs for the 20mph scheme this week.

30mph in force

“It is expected that it will take around four weeks for all the signage and road markings to be installed, weather permitting.

“Until the scheme goes ‘live’, the existing 30mph limit will continue to be in force.”

After the first phase, 20mph limits are set to be rolled out across the city over the next two to three years.

Consultations will be held on each part of the programme ahead of it being introduced.

The overall project budget is £1.5 million spread over three to four years.

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Comments(48)

Man With No Name says...
1:07pm Wed 13 Feb 13

When you say 30mph is curtently "in force", what happens when it does change to 20mph? How will that be enforced?

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Man With No Name says...
1:08pm Wed 13 Feb 13

*currently

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Pebbles says...
1:10pm Wed 13 Feb 13

The greens (lower case) are obviously keen to stamp their mark, and spend their paint budget before April.

But in the meantime are happy to confuse the motorist. Total proof of their scatter-brain ideals!

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paul76 says...
1:13pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Maybe they could spend their paint budget on painting lines down the centre of Old Shoreham Road between the Upper Drive and Dyke Road.

I am surprised no one else has spotted no white lines.

The council's response is they don't think it is required. May the argus could pick this up as a story.

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charlie smirke says...
1:17pm Wed 13 Feb 13

I would love to know what evidence they have that slowing vehicles down to 20mph will improve air quality?
I was always under the impression that driving this slowly and in a lower gear, created much higher emissions?

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PaulOckenden says...
1:20pm Wed 13 Feb 13

At least this time they aren't on a blue background. Loads of existing roads are like this - white text on a blue circle. Which as we all know means MINIMUM speed limit.

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mimseycal says...
1:23pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Wish they had been as keen to look after the fish they skipped.

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wexler53 says...
1:38pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Early the other morning, when there was no one about, I tried driving at 20mph.
It took quite a lot of concentration, with very frequent reference to the speedometer. I have to say that my attention to the road was much reduced as a result.
Mind you, when we are all creeping around with a chap with a red flag walking in front, that problem should be solved.

Report this post »

Bob_The_Ferret says...
1:57pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Come April, most people will continue driving over the 20 markings at the same speed they will today.

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Fight_Back says...
1:58pm Wed 13 Feb 13

I don't agree with the 20mph zones - complete waste of time and money ( and I will be ignoring them ) BUT why do people have a bee in their bonnets about work starting six weeks ahead of the change ? Surely they didn't really think it was possible to put all the signs in place during the eve of the new speed limits starting ?

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BrunswickSquare says...
2:09pm Wed 13 Feb 13

My experience of traffic in the centre of town suggests that as high traffic periods getting up to 20 mph will be difficult.

Not everyone can use the bus and something needs to be done to speed up traversing traffic across the A23.

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Spanners says...
2:30pm Wed 13 Feb 13

anyone know of the 20mph applies to bicycles ? And thats
1)on the road
2)on the road but in a cycle lane, and
3)off the road on a designated cycle path (off the road like on the seafront)

just interested on actual legal position- i regularly go over 20mph

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Hove Actually says...
2:36pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Glad to say I am lucky to live JUST outside this zone at the moment and travel west to work either very early at 5am or returning late after 11pm . I often see Taxis Buses & even Police cars driving over the current 30mph limit with NO threat to people or other road users.

Making everyone travel at the speed of a mobility scooter will never work and definitely impact the fuel consumption and emissions of all traffic

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NickBtn says...
2:36pm Wed 13 Feb 13

This is bonkers. Painting the signs so early will just mean that people will get used to ignoring them. This is likely to continue as won't be any enforcement (unless well above 30) and is not targeted just to minor residential streets/near schools etc where there is nearly universal agreement to the idea

Hardly a great way to spend our money!

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Hove Actually says...
2:38pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Another thought, if we are being told to ignore these signs how will we know when they are active if not really enforcable

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Brightonian72 says...
2:41pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Spanners wrote:
anyone know of the 20mph applies to bicycles ? And thats
1)on the road
2)on the road but in a cycle lane, and
3)off the road on a designated cycle path (off the road like on the seafront)

just interested on actual legal position- i regularly go over 20mph
Generally speeding falls under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.

However the act specifies motor vehicles only ( and I am assuming that you don't have a motor on your bicycle. )

So the default position is that speed limits do not apply to bicycles. However you could theoretically be prosecuted for cycling furiously or for riding dangerously or carelessly - whilst charging you would be a CPS decision, a Police officer could arrest you anyways :)

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Dealing with idiots says...
2:45pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Local police have stated to both taxi firms in town that they won't be enforcing the 20 mph restrictions. Jason and his mottly crew have just wasted more of our money.

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Hove Actually says...
2:45pm Wed 13 Feb 13

20mph limits are set to be rolled out across the city over the next two to three years

The overall project budget is £1.5 million spread over three to four years

So a solid plan then with only a possible 33% variation on the cost and 50% on the timing

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kkj says...
3:11pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Hove Actually wrote:
20mph limits are set to be rolled out across the city over the next two to three years

The overall project budget is £1.5 million spread over three to four years

So a solid plan then with only a possible 33% variation on the cost and 50% on the timing
I see where you get the 50% timing variance from, but where do you find a 33% cost variance?

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mimseycal says...
3:17pm Wed 13 Feb 13

NickBtn wrote:
This is bonkers. Painting the signs so early will just mean that people will get used to ignoring them. This is likely to continue as won't be any enforcement (unless well above 30) and is not targeted just to minor residential streets/near schools etc where there is nearly universal agreement to the idea

Hardly a great way to spend our money!
Maybe not the best way to spend our money but a great way to sate their urge to pander to an ideology.

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straightasadye says...
3:40pm Wed 13 Feb 13

wexler53 wrote:
Early the other morning, when there was no one about, I tried driving at 20mph.
It took quite a lot of concentration, with very frequent reference to the speedometer. I have to say that my attention to the road was much reduced as a result.
Mind you, when we are all creeping around with a chap with a red flag walking in front, that problem should be solved.
If you've got no better judgment of speed then you shouldn't be on the road. GOOD drivers don't repeatedly have to keep checking to see whether they are exceeding the limit, whether that be 20mph or other designated speed limits.

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Technophobe says...
3:56pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Hove Actually wrote:
Another thought, if we are being told to ignore these signs how will we know when they are active if not really enforcable
and

"Motorists have branded the decision “stupid” as they are left in two minds as to what speed they must travel at."

There's always the option to use your own brain rather than waiting to be instructed. If you start driving at 20 straight away then you'll be used to it by the time it's legally enforceable.

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Maxwell's Ghost says...
4:08pm Wed 13 Feb 13

The part section of the new bus lane has been painted on the Lewes road yet no one knows if its in force or not.
The councils highways department is amateur. However if there's an accident here te council will be sue for failing to have correct signage.

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pwlr1966 says...
4:52pm Wed 13 Feb 13

In the picture, the road surface to the right of the painted sign is obviously about to break up, perhaps money should have been spent on repairs first! I wonder how long before the sign crumbles with the rest of the road.

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Spx says...
5:27pm Wed 13 Feb 13

If someone is killed or injured by a vehicle travelling at 30 instead of 20 they are going to have a hard time justifying their actions to the police or family members. All the pedestrians will expect 20mph traffic, will you slow down to the legal limit if you see your mum about to cross the road? Pathetic anonymous keyboard jockies giving it the big one until their brother or sister is run over by a prock who posted they'd break the law 6 weeks before the new laws were introduced. I'm looking forward to the reduced noise levels, lower emissions and improved safety of a lower limit.

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gingersandy38 says...
5:32pm Wed 13 Feb 13

20mph speed limits are ok. But people do not adhere to them. Have had them for ages up where we are and not everybody keeps to them. Nothing is done about it.

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Maxwell's Ghost says...
5:33pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Spanners that's a great question.
I cycle to work and try to average 28mph with a top speed of about 32, if I have to reduce my speed to 20mph it's going to make my journey a lot longer and that will be a bloody nuisance.
I shall get back in the car if that's the case.

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NickBtn says...
6:31pm Wed 13 Feb 13

Here's a couple of interesting reports on the effects of 30 to 20. Rospa - who support the reduction but also say that 20mph limits (which we will have) are not as effective as 20mph zones (which have traffic calming and are much more expensive)

Most interesting comparison is Portsmouth which also has reduced limit on many of it's roads. On average speed has fallen across the city by 1.3mph, accidents down but killed/seriously injured up (slightly)

http://www.rospa.com
/roadsafety/advice/h
ighway/info/20-mph-z
one-factsheet.pdf

The AA quote a 10% INCREASE in fuel emissions in a 20mph zone compared to 30mph. So more pollution

http://www.theaa.com
/public_affairs/news
/20mph-roads-emissio
ns.html


My conclusion from these is that it's a trade off (as always). 20mph in residential zones is good at reducing accidents - better if done with traffic calming. However pollution in these areas will rise. I feel that these plans go too far. Small residential limits of 20mph most agree on however there are too many of the major roads included. This will increase pollution for local residents which could negate (or even reverse) the benefits in lower accidents with increased breathing difficulties, lower standard of life etc. 20mph - good idea, just gone too far

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FatherTed11 says...
7:42pm Wed 13 Feb 13

I notice a roundabout has appeared out of the blue at a junction towards the bottom of Goldstone villas with no updated signage or road markings.

It changes who has right of way on a busy road and I have already seen a couple of near misses as it's not clear if it's a roundabout or not and who has right of way.

Are the greens planning to put a roundabout at every road junction now?

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therat says...
9:53pm Wed 13 Feb 13

These GREENS have GOT TO GO LETS GET THEM OUT ! ! ! THEY ARE KILLING OUR CITY !! ! !

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tradebooker says...
10:31pm Wed 13 Feb 13

I'm going to travel at my usual 30-40mph speed using my common sense judgement as a mature 34yo adult, without any license penalties or driving offences. the whole scheme is a waste of money at a time when there are budget cuts and the greens are trying to increase local taxes. The GREENS HAVE NO COMMON SENSE.. Cars are very difficult to drive at 20, they re not designed for 20, this will cause a lot more problems than its trying to cure. USE YOUR COMMON SENSE AND VOTE THE GREENS OUT!

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bikerjimbo says...
10:46pm Wed 13 Feb 13

well said therat

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Hoarder12345444 says...
11:01pm Wed 13 Feb 13

20mph along grand avenue are they joking? That is a main road. You can easily do 40mph safely. Absolute rubbish. I will not be driving at 20mph thanks. It does nothing for pollution and worsens your fuel economy because at 20mph in my car its not even worth getting out of 2nd gear. Another pointless waste of money.

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tradebooker says...
8:10am Thu 14 Feb 13

The majority of comments on this thread are against 20mph. But yet the greens say their consulltations showed a majority in favour albeit only 54% for with 46% against. Also a lot that voted for put in a caveat for the 20mph to be be zoned and/or timed throughout the day I.e lifted out of hours. Greens said there wasn't enough money for zoning or phased timing.. But still took all the yes votes to force this through. Bully boy, authoritarian, big brother, call their style what you like but in the end had the majority voted against this might not be going through. Problem is people don't go on the councils consulltation portal website to vote on these things. It only takes a few mins and every new policy is on there: http://consult.brigh
ton-hove.gov.uk/port
al. VOTE THE GREENS OUT!

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SDK says...
8:30am Thu 14 Feb 13

Another thought. Most modern cars will have difficulty in moving at 20 mph in 4th or 5th gear. I have been observing with the 20mph limit in Trafalgar Road, Portslade on the odd foray over there and the only way to do it is to drop to 3rd or even 2nd. This means that the engine revs higher and I imagine turns out more pollution. How is that going to make the air cleaner?

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D5 says...
11:09am Thu 14 Feb 13

charlie smirke wrote:
I would love to know what evidence they have that slowing vehicles down to 20mph will improve air quality?
I was always under the impression that driving this slowly and in a lower gear, created much higher emissions?
not driving in town,ever is far better for you and the planet.

Report this post »

D5 says...
11:12am Thu 14 Feb 13

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Spanners that's a great question.
I cycle to work and try to average 28mph with a top speed of about 32, if I have to reduce my speed to 20mph it's going to make my journey a lot longer and that will be a bloody nuisance.
I shall get back in the car if that's the case.
MG kudos for cycling,like me -but you do not average 28mph. Stop telling fibs - ive been cycling for many years,i dont drink or smoke and i am healthy -you DO NOT average 28mph. Not now, not ever.
Can't stand BS!!
For the record i "average" about 19 which is commuting speed -wiggins "average" is about 22-26 on the tdf ffs.
MG is drinking far too much kool-aid and white lightning.
Nincompoop

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D5 says...
11:13am Thu 14 Feb 13

SDK wrote:
Another thought. Most modern cars will have difficulty in moving at 20 mph in 4th or 5th gear. I have been observing with the 20mph limit in Trafalgar Road, Portslade on the odd foray over there and the only way to do it is to drop to 3rd or even 2nd. This means that the engine revs higher and I imagine turns out more pollution. How is that going to make the air cleaner?
walk.

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Maxwell's Ghost says...
12:07pm Thu 14 Feb 13

Get off your mountain bike, get a road bike, get some slicks and a good south westerly and you will be flying.
Lose some weight and that heavy ego D5 and you may move faster.
My wife can keep up with you and she's tiny.

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Fairfax Sakes says...
12:25pm Thu 14 Feb 13

This is a good idea and the greens should be commended. Safety come first. All this moaning and postulating from people, who like to talk the talk.The Police WILL be monitoring the areas for contravention, so you'll slow down and jolly well like it.

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acidsmile9 says...
12:49pm Thu 14 Feb 13

Fairfax Sakes wrote:
This is a good idea and the greens should be commended. Safety come first. All this moaning and postulating from people, who like to talk the talk.The Police WILL be monitoring the areas for contravention, so you'll slow down and jolly well like it.
Saftey comes first, but where does it end and common sense have at least some part to play? Electing a council is only a democracy until they come into power....it seems that after that they do as they please regardless of public opinion.

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Spanners says...
1:50pm Thu 14 Feb 13

Fairfax Sakes wrote:
This is a good idea and the greens should be commended. Safety come first. All this moaning and postulating from people, who like to talk the talk.The Police WILL be monitoring the areas for contravention, so you'll slow down and jolly well like it.
The Police WILL NOT be enforcing and have quite clearly stated so

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Joshiman says...
2:00pm Thu 14 Feb 13

All paid for by the proposed increase in Council tax.I tried driving 20 mph.Wont do it again.Dont care.My car was not happy and miserable.Cyclists were overtaking me and gesticulating that I was a road hog.

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Hoarder12345444 says...
4:32pm Thu 14 Feb 13

D5 wrote:
SDK wrote:
Another thought. Most modern cars will have difficulty in moving at 20 mph in 4th or 5th gear. I have been observing with the 20mph limit in Trafalgar Road, Portslade on the odd foray over there and the only way to do it is to drop to 3rd or even 2nd. This means that the engine revs higher and I imagine turns out more pollution. How is that going to make the air cleaner?
walk.
Idiot, so walk everywhere like a 15 mile commute? Or to get from one side of Brighton to the other? Oh yeah thats practical. What a fool you are.

Report this post »

Hoarder12345444 says...
4:43pm Thu 14 Feb 13

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Get off your mountain bike, get a road bike, get some slicks and a good south westerly and you will be flying.
Lose some weight and that heavy ego D5 and you may move faster.
My wife can keep up with you and she's tiny.
yes indeed. I love my mountain bike big wheels too much, and I am rather fat too.

Report this post »

fred clause says...
5:13pm Thu 14 Feb 13

charlie smirke wrote:
I would love to know what evidence they have that slowing vehicles down to 20mph will improve air quality?
I was always under the impression that driving this slowly and in a lower gear, created much higher emissions?
correct the aa agree although when I tweeted this to Jason Kitkat in response to his green friendly website version which trys to deny it he went quiet funny that the sooner this shower is voted out the better

http://www.theaa.com
/public_affairs/news
/20mph-roads-emissio
ns.html

Report this post »

FatherTed11 says...
8:45pm Thu 14 Feb 13

Change 30 mph zone to 20 mph:
increases fuel consumption by 5.85 miles per gallon, or 10.1 per cent.

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tradebooker says...
11:19pm Fri 15 Feb 13

Most of the signs the greens are putting up are illegal. They have to be put on the sides of the road and of a minimum width and height of 12" yet they are only about 9". So drive whatever speed you like...

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