"Major incident" declared as Sussex hospitals hit crisis point (From The Argus)

Nothing to do with closing other A&E units and cutbacks?

Reporter1 wrote:
Nothing to do with closing other A&E units and cutbacks?

No, nothing.

NHS is a joke now with all the cut backs and money saving costing people lives.More pressure put on ambulance staff running the service on the limit or passing it.

It will only get worse. The country is trying to replace experienced clinical staff with clueless call-handlers, inexperienced staff-grade or 'specialist' doctors who've had piecemeal training in a chaotic numpty-guideline-dri
ven environment, and highly paid managers will be manoeuvred around by even more highly paid senior stooges that push along initiatives that dovetail nicely into future privatisation plans?

The public purse will pay entirely for a £420 million redevelopment that allows for the 50% usage by private providers ...with work starting in a few months at RSCH? Oh great. If the private providers don't make enough profit they'll get extra public money thrown at them irrespective of the amount of NHS work they do - as has already happened elsewhere?

The commissioning groups will focus on money (they can't agree on quality and there will be increasingly limited ways of measuring it anyway), private companies will then win contracts using perfected loss-leading techniques to bring about extinction of competition, larger providers can then move in and recoup their initial loses with extortionate fees thereafter for worse, profit-driven, services.

Those involved in commissioning who get a glimpse of the long-term strategy and make protestations will be gradually 'disappeared' or, if senior enough to cause delays, silenced by stuffing their mouths with gold?

Nothing will stop this from happening. Privatisation hasn't worked elsewhere but the politicians just can't stop themselves regarding the NHS - even the ones that stand only to suffer like the vast majority of society.

It will be interesting to see how our local MP's pass this off as all the fault of the last government. There are cuts being made to the NHS and no amount of political double talk can hide that fact.

decaying hospital, half term, drink and drugs capital of the uk, higher population than ever and more obese than ever, no surprise there is a strain. you cannot magic money and I would rather these problems sorted than keep paying more and more tax to be wasted by some irresponsible people and some managers who could not run a bath, terrible procurement tying into expensive contracts and expensive private finance schemes. Labour legacy.

David BN3 wrote:
It will be interesting to see how our local MP's pass this off as all the fault of the last government. There are cuts being made to the NHS and no amount of political double talk can hide that fact.

They will spin it like this:

"The total budget for NHS spending is 104 billion – those figures show that spending in 2011 / 2012 was very slightly low – £25 million lower – but that should be seen in the context of the savings we are making on bureaucracy and IT.

"And of course there is a surplus in the NHS and that money will be made available in front line services."

So no cuts at all. The real issue is on where the money is spent, how the NHS is organised, and why we are in the lower quartile of performance for just about everything vs. other Euro countries (see their website).

It would also help if people restricted hospital use to real emergencies as opposed to having so little in their lives they need to take all their friends and family to A&E for entertainment.

bug eye wrote:
decaying hospital, half term, drink and drugs capital of the uk, higher population than ever and more obese than ever, no surprise there is a strain. you cannot magic money and I would rather these problems sorted than keep paying more and more tax to be wasted by some irresponsible people and some managers who could not run a bath, terrible procurement tying into expensive contracts and expensive private finance schemes. Labour legacy.

PFIs do appear criminally wasteful - they started with the tories - who appear to have fully supported them.

What was the Conservative legacy? Loss of manufacturing base? Kitchen-sink economics with warehouses full of imports, performing magic with money in the city, uncontrolled mass immigration policies that Labour continued. Here's a thought - most of them are out for themselves and aren't fit to govern (irrespective of party)? MPs are, apparently, seven times more likely to go to jail than an average joe.

Maybe senior managers are incompetent because so many are failed executives that have bought into the failed free-market model that requires insider market-rigging to turn consistently turn a profit?

It has been shown that senior clinical staff run hospitals more efficiently and cheaply and yet it's the same or similar non-clinical, highly paid, administrators being moved around the country? Why?

Three years ago after having loads of pain over a long period I had to call a ambulance at RSCH A&E they gave me gaviscon and sent me packing,but not until I got a telling off from a nurse for calling a ambulance and going to A&E for what she said was a minor condition.I put up with the pain for quite a while longer then insisted on checks.I had BOWEL and LIVER CANCER,since diagnosed my treatment has been faultless through the major operations ,chemo and care from all involved in the NHS.We are not doctors sometimes so called minor ailments have the same syptoms as more serious ones.I don't think people should be put off from going to A&E.Another point the RSCH is in need of urgent upgrade but just a couple of miles away SOUTHLANDS hospital is quietly getting closed down,i recently went there for a scan but as the dept was the only one left in that part of the hospital all the heating was off.The wards at southlands are in much better condition that most at RSCH could the RSCH not use these noe closed down wards until the RSCH gets a upgrade?I know one is east sussex and one west sussex but just a couple of miles apart and southlands is already built.Councils and the NHS could save a fortune if they shared unused facilities.

This government should be taken to court for their criminal negligence to our NHS - they are the total cause of all the current problems in hospitals all around the UK.

It isn't just the Royal Sussex that's having these sort of problems and it's because they are not being given enough money by this gov' who are deliberately doing this to make hospitals appear bad and then all the people will be happy when it's all privatised: which is exactly what caMORON and his friends want as they all have financial interests in private health care companies.

If you are not aware of this - then you should get on the internet and find it all out. There are lists available of which members of this government, our elected MP's - who are supposed to be helping us, not themselves - which ministers, who caMORON has put into their jobs as they are all equally corrupt as he is.

Twitter is an excellent place to find out this information and more.

It is shameful and illegal what is going on. If you are wanting to put a stop to this then look at the NHA Party which has been set up by doctors who are fed up with what's happening and are trying to save the NHS and they promise to be honest.

It's not just the royal sussex this is happening at, its happening nationally due to this governments disgusting cuts and management of the NHS.

As a frontline nhs worker I sadly witness this daily. Not enough staff or staff not replaced... so called efficiency savings and yet money paid out for another raft of execs to streamline a service who frankly havent a clue!

Limited staff who have ever more patients to see cant possibly spend enough time with every patient due to the pressures.

It makes me despair somedays the sheer pressure to push sick people through a system who quite often are discharged before being ready only to be re-admitted somedays a few hours later.

And who takes the blame for this governments treatment of patients usually the Drs,nurses, allied health professionals.

Its a disgrace and the government should hang its head in shame.

Only last week the health secretary andrew landsley made a visit to the county... guess what happens the overpaid managers panic and suprisingly appear on the shop floor like headless chickens to paper over cracks and ensure the minions do their best to make it look like all is fine.

A complete shambles and what would one expect if they where to speak out infront of such a highly esteemed mp in an nhs hospital... likely the sack and the full force of a body to make sure they never work in the nhs again.

sickening!

Population growth mainly caused by mass immigration is the main cause. The SE is also too overcrowded.

Hospitals, roads, schools etc will continue to struggle to cope. NO MORE IMMIGRATION.

Train wreck waiting to happen!

And in other news today it was revealed that part of the initiation ceremony to join the Bullingdon Club (Cameron, Boris, Osbourne) is to burn a £50 note in front of a tramp.

We're all in it together.

lordenglandofsussex wrote:
Population growth mainly caused by mass immigration is the main cause. The SE is also too overcrowded.

Hospitals, roads, schools etc will continue to struggle to cope. NO MORE IMMIGRATION.

Wrong target, and it's a very dangerous game to pin the blame on immigrants. It ignores the real issue of funding cuts, and could stoke up hatred.

Its only going to get worse
NO MORE IMMIGRATION

So much left wing spin in these comments it's difficult to know where to start.

Plantpot wrote:
So much left wing spin in these comments it's difficult to know where to start.

Seeing as you seem to have just declared support in another thread for the possibility of protestors directly lobbying female rape victims into having the rapist's child, I'm wondering what comments you intend to spawn here.
Two things seem certain - they won't be factual or pleasant.

Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

Fercri Sakes wrote:

lordenglandofsussex wrote:
Population growth mainly caused by mass immigration is the main cause. The SE is also too overcrowded.

Hospitals, roads, schools etc will continue to struggle to cope. NO MORE IMMIGRATION.

Wrong target, and it's a very dangerous game to pin the blame on immigrants. It ignores the real issue of funding cuts, and could stoke up hatred.

True Fecri Sakes but such is the way of the non thinking man and woman since time immemorial. Mankinds history is littered with the worse excesses all brought about as a result of the obsession, mania, persecution and injustice of scapegoating.

The more complex the issue, the easier to find a scapegoat.

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

Private hospitals don't have a&e- they are able to plan their workload months in advance.

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

Private hospitals regularly fail to cope. The botched operations or patients with unforeseen complications can get sent back to NHS hospitals or beds, sometimes via an NHS ambulance using it's blue lights!

The patient may then spend a few days on an NHS intensive care unit, often costing upwards of £3000 a day in intravenous feeds and life-saving drugs whilst getting continual intensive care. Do the private providers pay for any of this?

Look up consultant 'pay beds' - they still seem to exist - they've just seem to have been legitimised by political dealings and name changes.

Private patients usually don't pay a fraction of what they're costing the NHS. So, no, people don't get what they pay for.

Private healthcare seems to merely cherry pick the convenient and profitable - their business model falls over without considerable support from taxpayers via the NHS. Do you just read glossy brochures?

mimseycal wrote:

Fercri Sakes wrote:

lordenglandofsussex wrote:
Population growth mainly caused by mass immigration is the main cause. The SE is also too overcrowded.

Hospitals, roads, schools etc will continue to struggle to cope. NO MORE IMMIGRATION.

Wrong target, and it's a very dangerous game to pin the blame on immigrants. It ignores the real issue of funding cuts, and could stoke up hatred.

True Fecri Sakes but such is the way of the non thinking man and woman since time immemorial. Mankinds history is littered with the worse excesses all brought about as a result of the obsession, mania, persecution and injustice of scapegoating.

The more complex the issue, the easier to find a scapegoat.

Left-wing spin again?

Britain is suffering from a mass invasion of immigrants - unwanted and uninvited (except by the traitors in Westminster).

Briton's living space and resources is being undermined by immigrants. The population of this country cannot be allowed to climb indefinitely.

No weasel words from the left-wingers who troll the Argus comments can change this fact.

Ha! No dear, not left wing spin just a fact of history ...

The matter is far more complex then mere immigration, or restricting immigration even more then we already do, would solve. Our economy and our NHS have been mismanaged for a long long time.

mimseycal wrote:
Ha! No dear, not left wing spin just a fact of history ...

The matter is far more complex then mere immigration, or restricting immigration even more then we already do, would solve. Our economy and our NHS have been mismanaged for a long long time.

Methinks you are more right than anyone yet knows - underneath the can of worms lies a reservoir much of which will never surface such is the enormity. Am fearful that we have long lost much of the essential clinically focussed administrative skills to put it right and the Police are next to be disseminated by employing 'middle management' with no knowledge or policing skills to be in command! Not sure if there is such a thing as suicide by poor and or inappropriately skilled management but if there is, this is a Nation that is sorely afflicted.

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

You don't for one reason - they don't do A and E.

And when they have an emergency, what do they do - call an ambulance, and transfer the case to the NHS.

Yes, you get what WE pay for!!!

The NHS often appears to work in spite of it's management, not because of it. The further up the food chain you get, the more divorced from reality the decision making becomes.

Mismanagement of the NHS by successive administrations has had a corrosive effect on people's trust in what is still a superb national asset, worth remembering when you consider private healthcare is beyond the means 80% of us.

In every election and every opinion poll, the vast majority of the population back the NHS, despite which, policies of back door privitisation continue apace, while assurancies and platitudes are used to deceive us into believing the opposite, until one day it will be too late and the damage will be irreversibe.

The worst single instrument visited on the public sector has been PFI, enacted (but unused) by the Major administration, first use initiated by Bliar, interest payments alone are crippling public services to the benefit of the big financial institutions and the ruin of the rest of us.

To tories blaming labour and labour blaming tories - a plague on both your houses. Your parties are equally culpable in their own ways - and don't get me started on the rest, because none of us want to see that kind of language on here.

ourcoalition wrote:

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

You don't for one reason - they don't do A and E.

And when they have an emergency, what do they do - call an ambulance, and transfer the case to the NHS.

Yes, you get what WE pay for!!!

Most private hospitals are registered as nursing homes, not hospitals.
They have no requirement to provide emergency treatment.
That would be something to ponder next time you are wheeled into a private hospital operating theatre. If something goes badly wrong the private, profit making, business will have to call an ambulance to take you to a proper NHS hospital.

Anyone with sense, PLEASE DONT fall for Tory tricks and get sucked into fake 'debate'. They fake naivete, ignorance, change the subject, and use divisive topics to avoid responsibility.


Best thing we can do is just tell them EXACTLY how strongly you feel in no uncertain terms. They'll soon begin to get the message that we WILL NOT put up with them, their cuts, or their nasty lot ANY LONGER. But as long as we're all nice and polite, they will stay up to their old tricks.



Spread the word about what they are doing, express your anger/ frustration. The time for 'getting them to see sense' is over. They KNOW what they are doing and don't care.

Old Ladys Gin wrote:

ourcoalition wrote:

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

You don't for one reason - they don't do A and E.

And when they have an emergency, what do they do - call an ambulance, and transfer the case to the NHS.

Yes, you get what WE pay for!!!

Most private hospitals are registered as nursing homes, not hospitals.
They have no requirement to provide emergency treatment.
That would be something to ponder next time you are wheeled into a private hospital operating theatre. If something goes badly wrong the private, profit making, business will have to call an ambulance to take you to a proper NHS hospital.

Except of course all the clinical staff in the private hospital will have been trained by the NHS. This is no different than if it all went wrong for you in an NHS hospital, which is does, regularly.

Soleless Shooter wrote:

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

Private hospitals regularly fail to cope. The botched operations or patients with unforeseen complications can get sent back to NHS hospitals or beds, sometimes via an NHS ambulance using it's blue lights!

The patient may then spend a few days on an NHS intensive care unit, often costing upwards of £3000 a day in intravenous feeds and life-saving drugs whilst getting continual intensive care. Do the private providers pay for any of this?

Look up consultant 'pay beds' - they still seem to exist - they've just seem to have been legitimised by political dealings and name changes.

Private patients usually don't pay a fraction of what they're costing the NHS. So, no, people don't get what they pay for.

Private healthcare seems to merely cherry pick the convenient and profitable - their business model falls over without considerable support from taxpayers via the NHS. Do you just read glossy brochures?

NHS hospitals regularly fail to cope. It isn't practical or economic to build unlimited capacity into the system, and never has been. We spend more now on the NHS than we ever have, and despite this fail to perform as well as the majority of ourt european counterparts. Please go on to the EU website for comparative data.

"Private patients usually don't pay a fraction of what they are costing the NHS." Really? And how many taxpayers pay full whack? Especially those contributing nothing financially to the UK tax pot?

I think you'll find the private healthcare commercial model works very well. How many poor doctors do you see in and out of the NHS?

Soleless Shooter wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
So much left wing spin in these comments it's difficult to know where to start.

Seeing as you seem to have just declared support in another thread for the possibility of protestors directly lobbying female rape victims into having the rapist's child, I'm wondering what comments you intend to spawn here.
Two things seem certain - they won't be factual or pleasant.

They will be factual where possible, unlike a lot of the politically motivated tripe one reads in The Argus comments section.

See the above for proof of my earlier comments...

whereisthe...? wrote:
See the above for proof of my earlier comments...

Was that your Wolfie Smith comment?

Ha haa ha! Talk about digging hole for yourself Tory boy!

(cue, 'actually Im not Tory' - yeeeahh right.)

whereisthe...? wrote:
See the above for proof of my earlier comments...

Ha, yes, that Plantpot is a bit of a US-style Tea Party right-wing nut.

Obviously he'll prove to us that we should deregulate every public service, rely on the markets to run them smoothly and that the minimum wage and paid holidays are a bunch of Stalinist left-wing claptrap.

It's horrible to think that if more people start thinking selfishly like him that we'll lose all the gains that have been made over the last 150 years on improving normal families' lives. I think he wants to go back to a time when poor children just died on the streets. It's not very Christian of him.

whereisthe...? wrote:
Ha haa ha! Talk about digging hole for yourself Tory boy!

(cue, 'actually Im not Tory' - yeeeahh right.)

Digging what hole?

I come from poverty and have done very well thank you. I'm Tory through and through.

The NHS exists to provide the best possible outcomes for the patient in my book, whereas the lefties worry about about pay and conditions first and patients second. I couldn't care less who provides the NHS service as long as the use of taxpayers money is maximised and outcomes for patients continue to improve.

Fercri Sakes wrote:

whereisthe...? wrote:
See the above for proof of my earlier comments...

Ha, yes, that Plantpot is a bit of a US-style Tea Party right-wing nut.

Obviously he'll prove to us that we should deregulate every public service, rely on the markets to run them smoothly and that the minimum wage and paid holidays are a bunch of Stalinist left-wing claptrap.

It's horrible to think that if more people start thinking selfishly like him that we'll lose all the gains that have been made over the last 150 years on improving normal families' lives. I think he wants to go back to a time when poor children just died on the streets. It's not very Christian of him.

We aren't going to go backwards. Margaret Thatcher changed this country in such a way that going back to the bad old days of Labour will never happen. Whatever happened to socialism? It died on its backside because it promised much and delivered nothing.

Open door policy for anyone from the Eu or anywhere else.Why is it that private healthcare works but the NHS doesnt.Why is it that MRSA/C-difficile is common in NHS hospitals but not in private.?There are simple answers.Charge drunks/time wasters /overseas health tourists etc etc

The NHS was a wonderful conception, but designed for demographics which are no longer viable to its operational model. The simple fact is that cost of health care is rising continually and we have two choices:
-Continue a pure "free at point of use" method and be prepare do pay 20-30% more in taxes to fund it, irrespective of whether we smoke, excercise, eat junk food, take drugs, engage in violent or dangerous activity etc.
-Find some form of middle ground between our system and that of pure free market e.g. The U.S.

The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

How true Fairfax. We know but one thing for sure ... as time passes, the cost of healthcare will continue to rise. Not just because of the growing population but because we are increasing our capacity to address health issues. Procedures which would have been unthinkable a few years ago are now common place. This is not something that is likely to stop any time soon.

We do need to rethink what we want the NHS to address and accept that it cannot address everything. Would this mean that to some extent there will be a divide between provision for those who can pay and those who cannot? Yes of course but to an extent that has always been the case. Further, speaking as one of those who would not be able to afford some of the extortionate fees for some of the more obscure procedures ... I accept that.

I accept that I might have to go to extraordinary lengths to seek medical care for one of my children/grandchildr
en/myself if, the saints and all who sail in her forbid, they or I would require some expensive medical treatment not available on the NHS. I won't like it, I won't celebrate it but I will accept it.

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

It is 'free at the point of use' and I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

Do you also think shareholders should be getting richer from palliative care for dying children? Those kids have paid no tax at all, have they. Should we should charge their parents? That might cheer them up.

Or did those sick kids cause the financial disaster in the first place? Until the bank bailout there was enough money to pay for the NHS. But the banks went (and are still going) cap-in-hand to the government and got full care and benefits no questions asked, the scroungers!

Seen a poor banker recently? No, but you've seen a closing library, closing A&E department, closing police station, bigger class sizes, I can go on...

Old Plantpot can't see the wood for the trees.

It's not so long ago that there was talk about safety and closing down parts of Princess Royal in favour of the 'County'!
Are we to understand that this outfit is in a deeper mess than tax and ratepayers were led to believe some 4 - 5 years ago?
Is there a chance that Eastbourne DGH and Conquest, Hastings, may be facing similar melt-down?
Do the administrators have the slightest clue what is going on around them?

Fercri Sakes wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

Do you also think shareholders should be getting richer from palliative care for dying children? Those kids have paid no tax at all, have they. Should we should charge their parents? That might cheer them up.

Or did those sick kids cause the financial disaster in the first place? Until the bank bailout there was enough money to pay for the NHS. But the banks went (and are still going) cap-in-hand to the government and got full care and benefits no questions asked, the scroungers!

Seen a poor banker recently? No, but you've seen a closing library, closing A&E department, closing police station, bigger class sizes, I can go on...

Old Plantpot can't see the wood for the trees.

I can see the bigger picture very well thanks. If shareholders and users benefit from a privatised NHS so what? As I have said before, if private co.'s can stop the waste and improve the service for users, why should I care otherwise?

Who is suggesting charging kids and non-taxpayers? No-one including me. Just making the point the more you earn the more you pay for the NHS.

The reason the banks got a bail out is so UK society didn't go down the pan. Keep in touch.

Things are closing down because the socialists finally run out of other people's money. Now the good old taxpayer is suffering because of it.

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

It is 'free at the point of use' and I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Point of use is pointless unless a cure is applied.

Plantpot wrote:

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

It is 'free at the point of use' and I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Point of use is pointless unless a cure is applied.

Point of use is an acknowledged phrase when used in reference to the NHS and means that there is no need to pay for medical care when that care is delivered, i.e when visiting a doctor or hospital. No mention of cure or standard of care, just medical care.

But you are welcome to carry on splitting hairs in a rather futile attempt to redefine the English language, its usage and abusage Plantpot ;-)

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

It is 'free at the point of use' and I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Point of use is pointless unless a cure is applied.

Point of use is an acknowledged phrase when used in reference to the NHS and means that there is no need to pay for medical care when that care is delivered, i.e when visiting a doctor or hospital. No mention of cure or standard of care, just medical care.

But you are welcome to carry on splitting hairs in a rather futile attempt to redefine the English language, its usage and abusage Plantpot ;-)

Lol. I understand how the phrase is used when talking about the NHS.

Plantpot wrote:

Fercri Sakes wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

Do you also think shareholders should be getting richer from palliative care for dying children? Those kids have paid no tax at all, have they. Should we should charge their parents? That might cheer them up.

Or did those sick kids cause the financial disaster in the first place? Until the bank bailout there was enough money to pay for the NHS. But the banks went (and are still going) cap-in-hand to the government and got full care and benefits no questions asked, the scroungers!

Seen a poor banker recently? No, but you've seen a closing library, closing A&E department, closing police station, bigger class sizes, I can go on...

Old Plantpot can't see the wood for the trees.

I can see the bigger picture very well thanks. If shareholders and users benefit from a privatised NHS so what? As I have said before, if private co.'s can stop the waste and improve the service for users, why should I care otherwise?

Who is suggesting charging kids and non-taxpayers? No-one including me. Just making the point the more you earn the more you pay for the NHS.

The reason the banks got a bail out is so UK society didn't go down the pan. Keep in touch.

Things are closing down because the socialists finally run out of other people's money. Now the good old taxpayer is suffering because of it.

Nope, you're wrong. The bankers got the billions, not the NHS. And as a tax-payer I expected my money to go to hospitals, not to some banker who'll gamble with it again.

But it seems you want to remove the NHS from the people of Britain and give it to market forces. This will result in some rich people getting even richer and NHS staff and patients getting worse services. And I don't want my tax going to investment companies, I want it going to nurses.

And then if it goes wrong they'll ask for us to bail them out anyway. Socialism suits the banks and the markets when they come cap-in-hand begging for money when it goes wrong. Quite sickening really, like much of the neo-conservative agenda.

And if you're not in the wealthiest 5% bracket then you're a fool to think that NHS privatisation would benefit you.

Plantpot wrote:

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

It is 'free at the point of use' and I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Point of use is pointless unless a cure is applied.

Point of use is an acknowledged phrase when used in reference to the NHS and means that there is no need to pay for medical care when that care is delivered, i.e when visiting a doctor or hospital. No mention of cure or standard of care, just medical care.

But you are welcome to carry on splitting hairs in a rather futile attempt to redefine the English language, its usage and abusage Plantpot ;-)

Lol. I understand how the phrase is used when talking about the NHS.

Oh, I see, so you were just playing dumb. Ah well, whatever floats your boat ...

Fercri Sakes wrote:

Plantpot wrote:

Fercri Sakes wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

Do you also think shareholders should be getting richer from palliative care for dying children? Those kids have paid no tax at all, have they. Should we should charge their parents? That might cheer them up.

Or did those sick kids cause the financial disaster in the first place? Until the bank bailout there was enough money to pay for the NHS. But the banks went (and are still going) cap-in-hand to the government and got full care and benefits no questions asked, the scroungers!

Seen a poor banker recently? No, but you've seen a closing library, closing A&E department, closing police station, bigger class sizes, I can go on...

Old Plantpot can't see the wood for the trees.

I can see the bigger picture very well thanks. If shareholders and users benefit from a privatised NHS so what? As I have said before, if private co.'s can stop the waste and improve the service for users, why should I care otherwise?

Who is suggesting charging kids and non-taxpayers? No-one including me. Just making the point the more you earn the more you pay for the NHS.

The reason the banks got a bail out is so UK society didn't go down the pan. Keep in touch.

Things are closing down because the socialists finally run out of other people's money. Now the good old taxpayer is suffering because of it.

Nope, you're wrong. The bankers got the billions, not the NHS. And as a tax-payer I expected my money to go to hospitals, not to some banker who'll gamble with it again.

But it seems you want to remove the NHS from the people of Britain and give it to market forces. This will result in some rich people getting even richer and NHS staff and patients getting worse services. And I don't want my tax going to investment companies, I want it going to nurses.

And then if it goes wrong they'll ask for us to bail them out anyway. Socialism suits the banks and the markets when they come cap-in-hand begging for money when it goes wrong. Quite sickening really, like much of the neo-conservative agenda.

And if you're not in the wealthiest 5% bracket then you're a fool to think that NHS privatisation would benefit you.

Perfectly put.

Am I one who wishes the 'Quote' function on this website had some 'Edit' facility?

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:

mimseycal wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

It is 'free at the point of use' and I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Point of use is pointless unless a cure is applied.

Point of use is an acknowledged phrase when used in reference to the NHS and means that there is no need to pay for medical care when that care is delivered, i.e when visiting a doctor or hospital. No mention of cure or standard of care, just medical care.

But you are welcome to carry on splitting hairs in a rather futile attempt to redefine the English language, its usage and abusage Plantpot ;-)

Lol. I understand how the phrase is used when talking about the NHS.

Oh, I see, so you were just playing dumb. Ah well, whatever floats your boat ...

Not dumb at all, I just recognise weasel words when I see them.

Fercri Sakes wrote:

Plantpot wrote:

Fercri Sakes wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
The NHS isn't free to taxpayers. I pay for all prescriptions, dental work and check ups, eye tests etc. That's on top of all the tax I pay directly and indirectly.

Do you also think shareholders should be getting richer from palliative care for dying children? Those kids have paid no tax at all, have they. Should we should charge their parents? That might cheer them up.

Or did those sick kids cause the financial disaster in the first place? Until the bank bailout there was enough money to pay for the NHS. But the banks went (and are still going) cap-in-hand to the government and got full care and benefits no questions asked, the scroungers!

Seen a poor banker recently? No, but you've seen a closing library, closing A&E department, closing police station, bigger class sizes, I can go on...

Old Plantpot can't see the wood for the trees.

I can see the bigger picture very well thanks. If shareholders and users benefit from a privatised NHS so what? As I have said before, if private co.'s can stop the waste and improve the service for users, why should I care otherwise?

Who is suggesting charging kids and non-taxpayers? No-one including me. Just making the point the more you earn the more you pay for the NHS.

The reason the banks got a bail out is so UK society didn't go down the pan. Keep in touch.

Things are closing down because the socialists finally run out of other people's money. Now the good old taxpayer is suffering because of it.

Nope, you're wrong. The bankers got the billions, not the NHS. And as a tax-payer I expected my money to go to hospitals, not to some banker who'll gamble with it again.

But it seems you want to remove the NHS from the people of Britain and give it to market forces. This will result in some rich people getting even richer and NHS staff and patients getting worse services. And I don't want my tax going to investment companies, I want it going to nurses.

And then if it goes wrong they'll ask for us to bail them out anyway. Socialism suits the banks and the markets when they come cap-in-hand begging for money when it goes wrong. Quite sickening really, like much of the neo-conservative agenda.

And if you're not in the wealthiest 5% bracket then you're a fool to think that NHS privatisation would benefit you.

Whoops!

Bankers got billions because we as the UK can't afford to have them fail. Too much of our economy is based on financial services. Since then, measures are being put in place to separate retail and investment banking so bail outs shouldn't have to happen again. However, the cost to individuals whose banks go bust is the loss of everything if left to true market forces, something I'm sure you wouldn't approve of.

As a tax-payer, you should expect your money to go into what is best for the UK. As spending on the NHS has increased in real terms for years, you have your wish. However, it is impractical for the NHS to have unlimited capacity and to be able to cover every single base. This has been true since day one. It is also reasonable to expect value for money. Do you know how the NHS procure goods and services? Find out and you'll see extraordinary waste right there.

Regarding privatisation, this has already taken place on a limited basis, in fact it was started under those guardians of socialism the Labour party. (Even GP's are self-employed and not NHS employees). Frankly, the NHS will never be taken away from the people of the UK, not because it couldn't be run better, but because it would be politically unacceptable to do so - it's a sacred cow. So your hysteria is unwarranted. As I've said before, I couldn't care less if people get wealthy on it (they already do in many cases) as long as services improve for patients.

The rest of your comments appear to be a good old fashioned "them and us" rant.

HA! Judging by your blatant effort to derail, I am sure you do recognise weasel words. Except in this case the principle 'free at the point of use' is contained in the core principles dating back to the original set up of the NHS.

mimseycal wrote:
HA! Judging by your blatant effort to derail, I am sure you do recognise weasel words. Except in this case the principle 'free at the point of use' is contained in the core principles dating back to the original set up of the NHS.

Lol.

From Wikipedia:

The idea of the NHS being free at the point of use is contained in its core principles from the original NHS set-up, which are non-negotiable at their root but have variously been open to some interpretation over the years. In practice, "free at the point of use" normally means that anyone legitimately fully registered with the system (i.e. in possession of an NHS number), including UK citizens and legal immigrants, can access the full breadth of critical and non-critical medical care without any out-of-pocket payment of any kind. Some specific NHS services do however require a financial contribution from the patient. Since 1948, patients have been charged for some services such as eye tests, dental care, prescriptions, and aspects of long-term care.

More proof of the Tory "debate" tactics I posted about.

"B..b..but its all the..." immigrants/ Labour's/ Disabled people/ Poor people's fault" (Pick which ever one you feel bitter about today)


"B..b..but..."(then uses pedantry/ naivete/ stupidity/ winding people up etc etc)


Finally sees nothing works so tries resorting to Wikipedia, known to have many pages "mysteriously" rewritten 'lately'.

And regardless, proves not a single point of his, since he is (for now(!) trying to use naivete (again!) pretending that he doesnt see any difference between the minority of things being paid for, and the WHOLESALE sell off and privatisation of practically EVERY aspect of the NHS, that even Tories admit is happening...


Where to now Tory boy? Distraction from the points perhaps, eg, "Oh why do you use so many capital letters?"

..no? Insults? "Calm down" No?

..fake lack of interest when realises has lost the debate? "Oh I don't care anyway"?

..or a lame attempt at mimicry "Oh, but YOU use these tactics"? No. I merely highlighted yours, while others pointed out facts, while you try to sideline the debate with previously mentioned sad tricks.


As I stated earlier, the only way to get rid of these bumbling, nasty fools, is to ignore them, and NOT let the debate get shifted on to THEIR terms.


Speak your mind, point out the facts, and ignore anyone using the Tory tactics. They are getting easier to mark them out and spot!!

whereisthe...? wrote:
More proof of the Tory "debate" tactics I posted about.

"B..b..but its all the..." immigrants/ Labour's/ Disabled people/ Poor people's fault" (Pick which ever one you feel bitter about today)


"B..b..but..."(then uses pedantry/ naivete/ stupidity/ winding people up etc etc)


Finally sees nothing works so tries resorting to Wikipedia, known to have many pages "mysteriously" rewritten 'lately'.

And regardless, proves not a single point of his, since he is (for now(!) trying to use naivete (again!) pretending that he doesnt see any difference between the minority of things being paid for, and the WHOLESALE sell off and privatisation of practically EVERY aspect of the NHS, that even Tories admit is happening...


Where to now Tory boy? Distraction from the points perhaps, eg, "Oh why do you use so many capital letters?"

..no? Insults? "Calm down" No?

..fake lack of interest when realises has lost the debate? "Oh I don't care anyway"?

..or a lame attempt at mimicry "Oh, but YOU use these tactics"? No. I merely highlighted yours, while others pointed out facts, while you try to sideline the debate with previously mentioned sad tricks.


As I stated earlier, the only way to get rid of these bumbling, nasty fools, is to ignore them, and NOT let the debate get shifted on to THEIR terms.


Speak your mind, point out the facts, and ignore anyone using the Tory tactics. They are getting easier to mark them out and spot!!

I've never hidden the fact that privatisation would be great if it meant better value for the taxpayer and better service for patients. Why would anyone care about who delivered the service unless they had a vested interest in employment in the NHS?

Oh, and rather than making yourself look ridiculous, how about just answering my points?

Fercri Sakes wrote:

lordenglandofsussex wrote:
Population growth mainly caused by mass immigration is the main cause. The SE is also too overcrowded.

Hospitals, roads, schools etc will continue to struggle to cope. NO MORE IMMIGRATION.

Wrong target, and it's a very dangerous game to pin the blame on immigrants. It ignores the real issue of funding cuts, and could stoke up hatred.

Immigration does play a part like it does with massive shortage of primary school places.But the facilities at RSCH are outdated its sad to see the southlands hospital quietly getting closed down only a couple of miles away surely even though this asset is in west sussex it should be used to help the RSCH out.If different hospital trusts and for that matter different councils shared assets they were not using it would save a fortune.

Okay … here goes. On 5 July 1948, the National Health Service was launched. At the time of its inception it was felt that the NHS would make the UK the envy of the world. By October 1949 it became public knowledge that there were problems with the service, including increasing demands on medical staff and facilities. However the popularity of the service reflected the fact that there was an overwhelming need for it; taking into account both the immense need for the service at home and the fact that internationally speaking it was perceived as the jewel in the crown of a shrinking Global empire there was very little incentive to address the problems that were very much evident by then.
Over the years, providing medical care has increased in cost. This has not been just because the cost of training, employing and provisioning the medical staff increased. The ever expanding capacity to address various medical conditions, the decreasing capacity of the populace to take responsibility for its own health, the expectation of the populace with an increasing sense of entitlement and expectation all have a part to play in further exacerbating the costs, and the corresponding difficulties in raising the funds to address these costs.

Administration of providing the services has also increased over the years. These have become increasingly complex with the provision of various rules and regulations over the years thereby increasing the costs of administering these increasing in keeping with the complexity. There are for instance four main National Health Services:
National Health Service (England)
Health and Social Care in Northern Ireland (HSENI)
NHS Scotland
NHS Wales
An individual with a National Insurance Number (NIN) will be treated at any medical facility belonging to any of these services but the NIN will also determine which service is charged for the treatment. So say you are born/nationalised in Scotland, you will be treated in Wales, England or Northern Ireland but it will be NHS Scotland that will pay for the treatment. The treatment of Road Traffic casualties is also rechargeable since the 1930s but largely ignored till the Road Traffic (NHS Charges) Act 1999 when the charge was laid directly on the insurers of the vehicles involved.

Treatment of persons not resident in the United Kingdom is subject to mostly uniform arrangements made by or delegated to the UK Department of Health rather than any individual health service. Foreign nationals always receive treatment free at the time of use for emergencies; are legally resident in the UK for 12 months, have recently arrived to take up permanent residence, are claiming asylum or have other legal resident status. Citizens of European Economic Area nations, as well as those from countries with which the UK has a reciprocal arrangements, are also entitled to free treatment by using the European Health Insurance Card. Though foreign nationals have to establish their nationality and residence status, which must be resolved before non-emergency treatment can commence. Patients who do not qualify for free treatment are asked to pay in advance, or to sign a written undertaking to pay.


This is by no means an exhaustive summary of the problems faced by the NHS, regardless of where it is located. The issue is far too complex to address in a single post on a commentary thread. However I hope, though I won’t hold my breath, that is will be enough to at least cast doubt on the ‘It’s the immigrants milord’ assertion so unthinkingly thrown about by knee jerkers.

Can everyone please stop picking on Plantpot? It's not HIS fault he was abused as a child.

Roundbill wrote:
Can everyone please stop picking on Plantpot? It's not HIS fault he was abused as a child.

How did you know that?

Be scared, very scared. An USA system is heading our way, which in a nutshell means if you have money you get treated if you do not, you might if your lucky get basic care! No doubt as time goes on
more and more people will be driven to taking our private healthcare insurance which is unlikely to be attainable on low and even average salaries. Privitization
will in time turn our NHS into a business rather than a service.

Tha's why we marched through the streets in Haywards Heath to protest about the Princess Royal Hospital A&E department being downgraded and all emergencies being sent 10 miles down to Brighton.
Not only is precious time lost,but the result is that ambulances are now queuing up at Brighton and people are waiting longer to be seen.When the Princess Royal took all emergencies from our area themselves,there wasn't a problem
Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.Time to sack some of these theorists and save money.

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

That's got to be your 'best' yet Morpheus. Your brain function needs checking though.
The private sector avoids anything from which it can't profit handsomely. It effectively cherry-picks its patients.
The NHS picks up the pieces.
The private sector is currently primed for taking over large sections of the NHS that it's easy to milk, or has already done so. The Tories can't stand the fact that there's been extensive socialised health care in this country that until recently they've not be able to get their shareholding, theiving mits on - hence the commissioning nonsense, PFI etc.etc.

redwing wrote:

Morpheus wrote:
Strange how we never hear anything about private hospitals failing to cope. You get what you pay for.

That's got to be your 'best' yet Morpheus. Your brain function needs checking though.
The private sector avoids anything from which it can't profit handsomely. It effectively cherry-picks its patients.
The NHS picks up the pieces.
The private sector is currently primed for taking over large sections of the NHS that it's easy to milk, or has already done so. The Tories can't stand the fact that there's been extensive socialised health care in this country that until recently they've not be able to get their shareholding, theiving mits on - hence the commissioning nonsense, PFI etc.etc.

Most private hospitals don't have A&E depts. There's no money in it.Emergencies are taken to NHS hospitals.
When I had an operation,I was offered a private hospital on the NHS(because of waiting list times) but the specialist changed his mind because if the op went wrong, and I needed emrgency treatment after I was home,the private hospital didn't have aftercare facilities like the NHS.