The ArgusBusiness owners fight back over Brighton and Hove bin strike (From The Argus)

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Business owners fight back over Brighton and Hove bin strike

The Argus: Business owners fight back over Brighton and Hove bin strike Business owners fight back over Brighton and Hove bin strike

Frustrated business owners are fighting back against rubbish strewn streets with community clean-up efforts - but their good deeds have been met angry opposition.

Tensions were running high yesterday as the grim bin strike saga moved into its sixth day, with the streets of Brighton and Hove now littered with anything from used nappies and mouldy food to pieces of old furniture and household junk.

Penny Thompson, chief executive of Brighton and Hove City Council, apologised for the “mess across the city” and said the council was working hard with unions to reach an agreement.

But while council chiefs and union bosses tried to thrash out a deal in the boardroom, fed-up business owners took to the streets to tackle the mountains of filthy rubbish themselves.

Emily Kent, 19, of the Rainbow Flowers florists in George Street, Hove, was collecting and removing rubbish outside her shop on Tuesday evening when she was confronted by a man who claimed to be a striking Cityclean worker.

She said: “My dad told me to go and clean up outside. The man asked why I was collecting the rubbish and I told him we didn't want the street to look like it was.

“He said he was an on-strike bin man and that collecting rubbish didn't help. He ripped one of my bin bags open and threw all its contents all over the street again.

“He was quite aggressive and I was so shocked I couldn't say anything to him before he went off.”

Emily's father, Billy, 43, said he “couldn't believe” what happened.

He said: “It was ridiculous. He grabbed a bag she had spent time filling with dirty rubbish and just ripped it open all over the street.

“We're a business, we don't want our streets looking like a rubbish dump. What kind of message is it going to give visitors?”

The Argus:

Emily and Billy Kemp of Rainbow Flowers

Since the bin strike started last week, Mr Kent has been spearheading a community clean-up operation involving various businesses in George Street.

As well as undertaking daily litter picking sessions, he has taped numerous black bin bags up and down walls of the street.

Yesterday evening he collected all the contents of the make-shift bins and put them in a van ready to take to a local waste centre for recycling.

Nando di Napoli, owner of the neighbouring Caffe Bar Italia di Napoli coffee shop, said Mr Kent's efforts were “unbelievable”.

He said: “We need more people like him.

“I run a food business. How am I expected to have customers sit down outside with rubbish blowing everywhere in the wind?

“I'm out four or five times a day cleaning up my own patch outside the shop. I have full sympathy for the bin men.

“If someone said to me 'you are going to have £4,000 a year taken off your salary' I would be furious.

“These guys have families to feed. The council are greedy. I hate them with all my heart.

“I pay them £900 a month rent to the council. Where is it all going? They say they have under spent by £4 million. Why is there an issue with paying these guys their money then?”

The Argus:

Charity shop worker Leah O'Faolain

Down the road at the Age UK charity shop, staff member Leah O'Faolain, 32, said: “We're cleaning up the patch outside the shop, of course.

“People have told me not to get involved. But where do you draw the line? It's disgusting.”

Elsewhere in the city, a branch of Costa Coffee has started to provide its own bin to help keep the area around the shop clean.

In Over Street, a note on a bin warned people against leaving “soiled” nappies in and around the already overflowing bins.

It read: “Can you not keep them at your own home until the strike is over, rather than allow them to be spread over the roads by seagulls?

“We do not want your soiled nappies thank you very much.”

Across town in Burlington Street, Kemp Town, another business owner described how she was “incensed” at the council.

Sarah Corton, of William Morris Antiques and Decorative Interiors, said: “People will come here for the summer and wonder what on earth is going on.

“If I was a visitor to Brighton now and saw what was going on, I'd never come back.

“I am incensed that the council isn't doing something about it.”

'if I was a visitor I'd never come back'

But the community efforts did not go down well on the social networking page Support Brighton Council Workers.

A statement published on the Facebook page said clean-ups were “the opposite of being supportive”.

It said: “Any attempts to lessen the impact of a strike completely undermines our action.”

It added: “We wholly recognise that Brighton is not a pleasant place to be at the moment and we apologise to all residents for the state of our city and for the inconvenience caused to you by this disruption.

“However please remember that we are residents here too and we also would like to live in a clean city and return to doing our work as soon as possible to make this the case.”

Yesterday officials from the GMB union and officers from Brighton and Hove City Council were engaged in yet more talks in search of a satisfactory conclusion to the strikes.

Penny Thompson, chief executive of Brighton and Hove City Council, said last night discussions were continuing.

She added: ““I am sorry we are in this situation, as a resident I am well aware of the disruption and mess across the city.

“The proposals we've put forward are intended to achieve a fair and consistent scheme for staff across the council.

“Many staff will gain from these proposals and we are continuing to seek to reduce any losses some will suffer. Where there is a loss a compensation package is in place.

“This is an historical issue which needs to be resolved. Nevertheless I'm sorry for the disruption that the strike is causing."

Cityclean employees will return to work on Friday and work the weekend before the new wave of action begins on Monday.

No one from the GMB union was available for comment as The Argus went to press last night.

What is the opposition saying?

The Argus: REPORT: Hove MP Mike Weatherley

MP Mike Weatherley

Mike Weatherley, Conservative MP for Hove, urged both the GMB and the Green Party to “put Brighton and Hove first”.

He said: “Generally, most residents just want their bins emptied and to be left alone to get on with their lives.

“However, together the Greens and the GMB/Labour union have gotten the city into a complete and utter mess.

“While Caroline Lucas has joined the strikers on the picket line, I will instead be helping residents this weekend attempt to clear up some of the rubbish.”

He added: “I've been contacted by a huge number of residents who are extremely angry that Brighton & Hove City Council, led by the Green Party, has failed in its most basic of duties.

“I've heard horror story after horror story and the situation is now totally out of control.

“It has reached a crisis point, so Brighton & Hove City Council needs to act now to get cover for the GMB/Labour union strikers.”

The Argus: Brighton Kemptown MP Simon Kirby

MP Simon Kirby

Simon Kirby, Conservative MP for Brighton Kemptown, yesterday met with local government minister Brandon Lewis MP to discuss the strike.

Mr Kirby said: “Many residents have contacted me incredibly concerned about the dangers to public health of having piles of rubbish strewn across our city and it is important that the Government realises what is happening just 50 miles down the road from Westminster.

“The minister was very interested in the situation and has asked for me to keep him fully informed of any developments.

“He shared my desire to see an end to the dispute immediately so that residents are not made to suffer further.”

Why are they striking?

Brighton and Hove City Council currently has a mish-mash system of allowances and expenses.

To ensure it avoids any costly employment legal action over equal pay, the local authority said it must address the issue now.

They claim that 90% of those affected in its 8,000-strong workforce will be better off or receive roughly the same amount but union representatives claim Cityclean staff could lose up to £4,000 a year.

For those who will lose out, individual compensation packages, reportedly of up to £15,000, will be available.

The local authority claims if the changes are not made it could lead to High Court pay claims and a potential bill to the taxpayer of tens of millions of pounds.

The fresh stink of sea air

The Argus:

A rapper has taken to the studio to protest against the stinking streets of his home town.

MC Freshness braved bin juice and rowdy seagulls to make a YouTube video to the track, which has had more than 2,000 hits in 24 hours.

The Fresh Stink of Sea Air is rapped to the theme of Will Smith's Fresh Prince of Bel-Air show and features choice lines such as: “A couple of seagulls that were up to no good, started eating rubbish in my neighbourhood.”

The former Brighton Institute of Modern Music student, from Hove, said: “At the moment the streets are an absolute state, it stinks.

“I was sick of walking around town and thought I would just get in the studio and lay down a track with a couple of my brethrens.

“The bin men don't deserve a pay cut, but at the same time they're quite expensive. I'm on the fence but I want to start a revolution so bin men get what they deserve and keep everyone happy.

The bedroom rapper added: “It's a subject a lot of people can relate to. Hopefully it will result in the streets being cleaned and me being on a world tour. Whatever happens it just needs to sorted as soon as possible. It's making my white trainers really dirty.”

Comments (102)

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7:06am Thu 20 Jun 13

Balmy zephyrs says...

Penny Thompson ..... Go back to North London we do not want a social worker heading our council ..... Just go you do not belong here !
Penny Thompson ..... Go back to North London we do not want a social worker heading our council ..... Just go you do not belong here ! Balmy zephyrs
  • Score: 0

7:13am Thu 20 Jun 13

Balmy zephyrs says...

Public health hazard ? I thought that prevention was the keyword ... Tom Scanlon the New head of Public Health is doing .... Nothing ! He certainly is not responding to formal complaints made to the council .
What is ... Healthwatch .. Doing ... Nothing ... They are supposed to represent our views .... A shambolic performance .... What a waste of space they are !
Public health hazard ? I thought that prevention was the keyword ... Tom Scanlon the New head of Public Health is doing .... Nothing ! He certainly is not responding to formal complaints made to the council . What is ... Healthwatch .. Doing ... Nothing ... They are supposed to represent our views .... A shambolic performance .... What a waste of space they are ! Balmy zephyrs
  • Score: 0

7:14am Thu 20 Jun 13

davyboy says...

local people, with the city at heart, should be running the council. I will not visit brighton whilst this debacle is going on, and many others won't either. the council are ruining the citys' summer trading. binmen and street cleaners are the lifeblood of any city and should be treated as such. i don't agree with workers going home early if rounds are finished, but i would expect them to get a fair wage for the dirty job they do. if you are contracted for 8 hours per day, that is what i expect you to do. bonuses should only be paid once a job is completed properly.
local people, with the city at heart, should be running the council. I will not visit brighton whilst this debacle is going on, and many others won't either. the council are ruining the citys' summer trading. binmen and street cleaners are the lifeblood of any city and should be treated as such. i don't agree with workers going home early if rounds are finished, but i would expect them to get a fair wage for the dirty job they do. if you are contracted for 8 hours per day, that is what i expect you to do. bonuses should only be paid once a job is completed properly. davyboy
  • Score: 0

7:30am Thu 20 Jun 13

Solyent Green says...

Brighton used to be a destination, they wanted to go,
Now the place is filthy, they just don't want to know

Those that do decide to come, will have an abiding memory,
Of the squalor and rat infested City, known as Skidrow by the Sea..

They will not return, and others of course, will decide, not to even try,
Do you think the way to attract them is, a big wheel and eye in the sky?

The parking charges are extortionate and the town is a disgrace,
Go to Worthing, to spend your money,it is a much nicer place.
Brighton used to be a destination, they wanted to go, Now the place is filthy, they just don't want to know Those that do decide to come, will have an abiding memory, Of the squalor and rat infested City, known as Skidrow by the Sea.. They will not return, and others of course, will decide, not to even try, Do you think the way to attract them is, a big wheel and eye in the sky? The parking charges are extortionate and the town is a disgrace, Go to Worthing, to spend your money,it is a much nicer place. Solyent Green
  • Score: 0

7:31am Thu 20 Jun 13

medianscore says...

My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault.

Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.
My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community. medianscore
  • Score: 0

7:38am Thu 20 Jun 13

coasta says...

Considering all the moans about this issue residents of Brighton & Hove should take heart in that the party they elected, yes that's the greens, have achieved through this dispute one of what must be a political idea of their party. That is 100% recycling - they've presided over a dispute that has turned the city into one giant compost heap - Well done.
Considering all the moans about this issue residents of Brighton & Hove should take heart in that the party they elected, yes that's the greens, have achieved through this dispute one of what must be a political idea of their party. That is 100% recycling - they've presided over a dispute that has turned the city into one giant compost heap - Well done. coasta
  • Score: 0

7:44am Thu 20 Jun 13

Poccypoc says...

I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea.

GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT!

Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden.

To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do.
I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea. GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT! Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden. To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do. Poccypoc
  • Score: 0

7:48am Thu 20 Jun 13

Dealing with idiots says...

Are there any lawyers prepared to represent me if I walk into the front entrance of Kings house and leave my waste there? Anyone like to join me? Email
greensoutnow@gmail.c
om
Are there any lawyers prepared to represent me if I walk into the front entrance of Kings house and leave my waste there? Anyone like to join me? Email greensoutnow@gmail.c om Dealing with idiots
  • Score: 0

7:49am Thu 20 Jun 13

roystony says...

medianscore wrote:
My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault.

Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.
My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option.

Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.
[quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.[/p][/quote]My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town. roystony
  • Score: 0

7:52am Thu 20 Jun 13

Stephen Vinall says...

We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this!

The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too!

Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around.

Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.
We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this! The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too! Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around. Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had. Stephen Vinall
  • Score: 0

7:53am Thu 20 Jun 13

deanaprior says...

Low paid refuse workers lose money
Hard pressed businesses lose money
The Greens will lose the next election.

Thompson and Turner who can't sort out a compromise don't lose money.

Why we pay 150k to a CEO who starts a conflict at the beginning of the summer, with a minority party in power maybe we should have got some one brighter
Low paid refuse workers lose money Hard pressed businesses lose money The Greens will lose the next election. Thompson and Turner who can't sort out a compromise don't lose money. Why we pay 150k to a CEO who starts a conflict at the beginning of the summer, with a minority party in power maybe we should have got some one brighter deanaprior
  • Score: 0

7:54am Thu 20 Jun 13

roystony says...

Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves.

Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.
Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves. Get the greens out, then our town will be saved. roystony
  • Score: 0

7:55am Thu 20 Jun 13

BrightNZ says...

While I sympathise that some workers will receive a pay cut, I am not alone in losing patience with this action.

The City Clean workers seem to be concerned about their livelihood above everyone else's. The damage to the cities reputation is going to take far longer to repair than it will take to clean up this disgusting mess they have created. In a city where so many business rely upon visitors and tourists that is not acceptable.

Do they think that all the people who find this mess have read the Argus and are up to date with developments? I think NOT. I think they will go home and tell everyone what a dump Brighton is. This city has a bad enough reputation as it is.

And why get angry if someone else cleans up the rubbish anyway? You are already asking us to reach into our own pockets to pay you more through, because the reality is that there is only so much money and it comes from council tax.

In a private company when the budgets don't balance some staff would be made redundant and the remainder asked to work harder. Is that what you would prefer? If not, then stop holding the rest of us to ransom and start to accept the facts of limited budgets

Angry Resident
While I sympathise that some workers will receive a pay cut, I am not alone in losing patience with this action. The City Clean workers seem to be concerned about their livelihood above everyone else's. The damage to the cities reputation is going to take far longer to repair than it will take to clean up this disgusting mess they have created. In a city where so many business rely upon visitors and tourists that is not acceptable. Do they think that all the people who find this mess have read the Argus and are up to date with developments? I think NOT. I think they will go home and tell everyone what a dump Brighton is. This city has a bad enough reputation as it is. And why get angry if someone else cleans up the rubbish anyway? You are already asking us to reach into our own pockets to pay you more through, because the reality is that there is only so much money and it comes from council tax. In a private company when the budgets don't balance some staff would be made redundant and the remainder asked to work harder. Is that what you would prefer? If not, then stop holding the rest of us to ransom and start to accept the facts of limited budgets Angry Resident BrightNZ
  • Score: 0

7:58am Thu 20 Jun 13

medianscore says...

roystony wrote:
medianscore wrote:
My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault.

Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.
My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option.

Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.
I couldn't care less about the Green Party or any other party (except UKIP which I am now going to vote for).

This is about B&H and the people sticking two fingers up to the Council, strikers and the Union thugs. If everyone cleared up their own little patch then it would help.
[quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.[/p][/quote]My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.[/p][/quote]I couldn't care less about the Green Party or any other party (except UKIP which I am now going to vote for). This is about B&H and the people sticking two fingers up to the Council, strikers and the Union thugs. If everyone cleared up their own little patch then it would help. medianscore
  • Score: 0

8:03am Thu 20 Jun 13

Scorpio50 says...

How do we get this rabble, known as the Green Party, out of power. 2015 is too far away they need to be deposed, overthown before this once proud city becomes a laughing stock.
As for the thug that attacked the poor lady trying to clear up the mess, well I'd burying him beneath a mound of rotting rubbish.
Any sympathy I had for the dustmen has now gone. GET BACK TO WORK!
How do we get this rabble, known as the Green Party, out of power. 2015 is too far away they need to be deposed, overthown before this once proud city becomes a laughing stock. As for the thug that attacked the poor lady trying to clear up the mess, well I'd burying him beneath a mound of rotting rubbish. Any sympathy I had for the dustmen has now gone. GET BACK TO WORK! Scorpio50
  • Score: 0

8:11am Thu 20 Jun 13

Ballroom Blitz says...

Union thuggery and intimidation. Are we back in the 1970s?
The union has crossed a line.
I have read everything I can about the so called compensation scheme for the very small number who are going to lose money, and it seems very fair. If it was me, I'd be happy to take it.
If they are intimidating members of the public it's time for some police action.
Union thuggery and intimidation. Are we back in the 1970s? The union has crossed a line. I have read everything I can about the so called compensation scheme for the very small number who are going to lose money, and it seems very fair. If it was me, I'd be happy to take it. If they are intimidating members of the public it's time for some police action. Ballroom Blitz
  • Score: 0

8:15am Thu 20 Jun 13

roystony says...

medianscore wrote:
roystony wrote:
medianscore wrote:
My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault.

Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.
My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option.

Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.
I couldn't care less about the Green Party or any other party (except UKIP which I am now going to vote for).

This is about B&H and the people sticking two fingers up to the Council, strikers and the Union thugs. If everyone cleared up their own little patch then it would help.
Ignorant pri*k
[quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.[/p][/quote]My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.[/p][/quote]I couldn't care less about the Green Party or any other party (except UKIP which I am now going to vote for). This is about B&H and the people sticking two fingers up to the Council, strikers and the Union thugs. If everyone cleared up their own little patch then it would help.[/p][/quote]Ignorant pri*k roystony
  • Score: 0

8:17am Thu 20 Jun 13

juleshove says...

The thug sorry bin man should be sacked.
The thug sorry bin man should be sacked. juleshove
  • Score: 0

8:18am Thu 20 Jun 13

fredaj says...

roystony wrote:
medianscore wrote:
My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault.

Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.
My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option.

Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.
This situation would exist with or without the greens and if the greens were to go or Jason was to resign the pickle of the allowances and the dominance of the binmen would not go away.
[quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.[/p][/quote]My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.[/p][/quote]This situation would exist with or without the greens and if the greens were to go or Jason was to resign the pickle of the allowances and the dominance of the binmen would not go away. fredaj
  • Score: 0

8:33am Thu 20 Jun 13

Maxwell's Ghost says...

The bin men clearly feel so strongly that they have no livelihood if their wages are dropped so they have nothing to lose if the town looks like a dump.
The average house price in this city in nine and a half times the average salary, a bus fare is almost a fiver for a short return trip, a pint at the festival was £4.50, parking £25 a day.
This city is on its knees and has even turned into a playground for the rich, it's a shame that the rich don't want to pay the wages of the poor like poppycoc above who the poor diddums works long hours in London and doesn't like putting the bin out.
That says it all. Pay the bloody workers Penny T and stop the Green Party fleecing the poorest to fund the vanity projects wanted by a few ideologist who were elected by students who probably finished their courses and moved back home two years ago.
The bin men clearly feel so strongly that they have no livelihood if their wages are dropped so they have nothing to lose if the town looks like a dump. The average house price in this city in nine and a half times the average salary, a bus fare is almost a fiver for a short return trip, a pint at the festival was £4.50, parking £25 a day. This city is on its knees and has even turned into a playground for the rich, it's a shame that the rich don't want to pay the wages of the poor like poppycoc above who the poor diddums works long hours in London and doesn't like putting the bin out. That says it all. Pay the bloody workers Penny T and stop the Green Party fleecing the poorest to fund the vanity projects wanted by a few ideologist who were elected by students who probably finished their courses and moved back home two years ago. Maxwell's Ghost
  • Score: 0

8:41am Thu 20 Jun 13

Charismatic Andrew says...

I don't agree that all this rubbish will put off visitors.

In fact I here that more and more are planning to come here for a 'dirty weekend'.....
I don't agree that all this rubbish will put off visitors. In fact I here that more and more are planning to come here for a 'dirty weekend'..... Charismatic Andrew
  • Score: 0

8:45am Thu 20 Jun 13

qm says...

juleshove wrote:
The thug sorry bin man should be sacked.
Totally agree, sympathy has gone out the window - bring on the foreigners who want to work!
[quote][p][bold]juleshove[/bold] wrote: The thug sorry bin man should be sacked.[/p][/quote]Totally agree, sympathy has gone out the window - bring on the foreigners who want to work! qm
  • Score: 0

8:51am Thu 20 Jun 13

LongDistanceRunner2 says...

Leadership is a bit like a game of chess. You need to look a few moves ahead to assess likely outcomes of your actions.

It's hard to see how this was ever going to turn out differently.

So what can we conclude? Will it turn out that Jason Kitcat was always prepared to take on on the GMB until it loses so much public support that refuse collection could be put out to tender?

Whatever's Jason's plans are, it really is an astonishing to consider that he must have felt that the current situation is a price worth paying...
Leadership is a bit like a game of chess. You need to look a few moves ahead to assess likely outcomes of your actions. It's hard to see how this was ever going to turn out differently. So what can we conclude? Will it turn out that Jason Kitcat was always prepared to take on on the GMB until it loses so much public support that refuse collection could be put out to tender? Whatever's Jason's plans are, it really is an astonishing to consider that he must have felt that the current situation is a price worth paying... LongDistanceRunner2
  • Score: 0

8:55am Thu 20 Jun 13

wexler53 says...

Just because someone says they are a striking city worker, doesn't mean they actually are one.

That person's behaviour to that young woman was offensive and inappropriate. Sadly, there are idiots everywhere.

However, the vast majority of city cleaners are thoroughly decent people living their lives like the rest of us.

But they are fighting back in legal ways open to them, against a dim witted group of ideological nitwits the city would be well rid of, along with a poorly qualified chief exec.

Yes, the place is a mess. It's a good representation of what happens when a small group of extremists get in power.

Rather than rail against the bin men, let's get a council that will work for us and the city.
Just because someone says they are a striking city worker, doesn't mean they actually are one. That person's behaviour to that young woman was offensive and inappropriate. Sadly, there are idiots everywhere. However, the vast majority of city cleaners are thoroughly decent people living their lives like the rest of us. But they are fighting back in legal ways open to them, against a dim witted group of ideological nitwits the city would be well rid of, along with a poorly qualified chief exec. Yes, the place is a mess. It's a good representation of what happens when a small group of extremists get in power. Rather than rail against the bin men, let's get a council that will work for us and the city. wexler53
  • Score: 0

8:59am Thu 20 Jun 13

BornInBrighton1968 says...

Things are getting completely out of control now; there are serious rodent infestations all over the city.

Surely now is the time for central government to get involved. Either serious punitive sanction must be placed on the Green council for the catastrophic mess that they have created or, as un-democratic as it may sound, Government should consider removing the Greens from power and administer Brighton itself until an election can be caused.

This may all seem very radicle, and i dont know if mechanisms exist to remove a council from power, but even the head of the Environment Agency for the south east has stated that there is a serious environmental health issue in Brighton
Things are getting completely out of control now; there are serious rodent infestations all over the city. Surely now is the time for central government to get involved. Either serious punitive sanction must be placed on the Green council for the catastrophic mess that they have created or, as un-democratic as it may sound, Government should consider removing the Greens from power and administer Brighton itself until an election can be caused. This may all seem very radicle, and i dont know if mechanisms exist to remove a council from power, but even the head of the Environment Agency for the south east has stated that there is a serious environmental health issue in Brighton BornInBrighton1968
  • Score: 0

9:04am Thu 20 Jun 13

Maxwell's Ghost says...

Bring in the foreigners who want to work. What a silly thing to say. If we can drive down the salaries of British workers with cheaper foreign staff, your job could be next.
And who will pay for the binmen to live at home on benefits and in social housing when they lose their homes? Taxpayers. It's cheaper to employ British people.
If we bring more people into the UK we also have to provide more housing, more schools and more health care and therefore more funding from the taxpayer.
Bring in the foreigners who want to work. What a silly thing to say. If we can drive down the salaries of British workers with cheaper foreign staff, your job could be next. And who will pay for the binmen to live at home on benefits and in social housing when they lose their homes? Taxpayers. It's cheaper to employ British people. If we bring more people into the UK we also have to provide more housing, more schools and more health care and therefore more funding from the taxpayer. Maxwell's Ghost
  • Score: 0

9:04am Thu 20 Jun 13

raymondo999 says...

Can we have some facts on this dispute? Not just the same old 90 per cent won't lose and bin men will lose £4000. I've followed the argus links to the relevant council papers and its just management gobblygook, absolutely no facts. So argus do a bit of research: how much do the bin men currently earn, how much are their allowances, what will change for who after the changes are implemented?
Can we have some facts on this dispute? Not just the same old 90 per cent won't lose and bin men will lose £4000. I've followed the argus links to the relevant council papers and its just management gobblygook, absolutely no facts. So argus do a bit of research: how much do the bin men currently earn, how much are their allowances, what will change for who after the changes are implemented? raymondo999
  • Score: 0

9:04am Thu 20 Jun 13

Eugenius says...

Stephen Vinall wrote:
We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this!

The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too!

Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around.

Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.
The city council already pays all its workers at least the living wage of £7.45 per hour, which is higher than the minimum wage, and was one of the first councils in the country to do so.
CityClean staff will still get allowances under the new deal, but some of the allowances that were introduced when the 2009 strike was settled have been found to be legally problematic since they are only available to a small numer of the workforce.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen Vinall[/bold] wrote: We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this! The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too! Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around. Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.[/p][/quote]The city council already pays all its workers at least the living wage of £7.45 per hour, which is higher than the minimum wage, and was one of the first councils in the country to do so. CityClean staff will still get allowances under the new deal, but some of the allowances that were introduced when the 2009 strike was settled have been found to be legally problematic since they are only available to a small numer of the workforce. Eugenius
  • Score: 0

9:09am Thu 20 Jun 13

Andy R says...

Wow....what an amazing coincidence that little encounter in George Street was. Of all the people who might have happened along while the shopworker was clearing litter.......
Wow....what an amazing coincidence that little encounter in George Street was. Of all the people who might have happened along while the shopworker was clearing litter....... Andy R
  • Score: 0

9:09am Thu 20 Jun 13

HJarrs says...

Hoorah! The Argus actually starts to explain the situation that the council finds itself. If the equality issue of allowances are not resolved, there will either have to be a referendum to riase council tax by 10%+ and lets be honest, that is a non starter. Otherwise, other services and jobs will have to be cut. Good headlines to sell papaers I am sure, but all damaging to the city.

Unfortunately, the situation we are in is an unintended consequence of legislation introduced to raise the income of jobs largely held by women and should have been a raising up, not a levelling out. This could have been sorted out when more money was available before the financial crash but sadly the then Labour administration left it as a bomb for the next administration.

If I were a refuse worker I am sure I too would be out on strike out of sheer frustration at such an unfair system. However, I fear everyone is a loser in this dispute.

One thing that does stick in the craw is Weatherley blaming Greens /GMB. As he well knows, the Conservatives and Greens supported handing over negotiation to the council executive, a decision that has caused much debate in the Greens I understand. So if the Greens are to blame, so are the Tories. Labour had the luxury of sitting on their hands, hoping to capitalise on the fallout but have no idea how to sort the mess out.

This could run and run.
Hoorah! The Argus actually starts to explain the situation that the council finds itself. If the equality issue of allowances are not resolved, there will either have to be a referendum to riase council tax by 10%+ and lets be honest, that is a non starter. Otherwise, other services and jobs will have to be cut. Good headlines to sell papaers I am sure, but all damaging to the city. Unfortunately, the situation we are in is an unintended consequence of legislation introduced to raise the income of jobs largely held by women and should have been a raising up, not a levelling out. This could have been sorted out when more money was available before the financial crash but sadly the then Labour administration left it as a bomb for the next administration. If I were a refuse worker I am sure I too would be out on strike out of sheer frustration at such an unfair system. However, I fear everyone is a loser in this dispute. One thing that does stick in the craw is Weatherley blaming Greens /GMB. As he well knows, the Conservatives and Greens supported handing over negotiation to the council executive, a decision that has caused much debate in the Greens I understand. So if the Greens are to blame, so are the Tories. Labour had the luxury of sitting on their hands, hoping to capitalise on the fallout but have no idea how to sort the mess out. This could run and run. HJarrs
  • Score: 0

9:15am Thu 20 Jun 13

the_grail says...

B*gger - Hugh Jars has woken up! It's not the Greens fault - it is everybody else's fault.

No - the greens are in power - the greens decided to do something about the pay inequality - the greens got it badly wrong - the greens should sort it out - period!

Why is it the greens will never take responsibility for anything they do?
B*gger - Hugh Jars has woken up! It's not the Greens fault - it is everybody else's fault. No - the greens are in power - the greens decided to do something about the pay inequality - the greens got it badly wrong - the greens should sort it out - period! Why is it the greens will never take responsibility for anything they do? the_grail
  • Score: 0

9:15am Thu 20 Jun 13

Morpheus says...

Dear Penny Thompson

Stop telling us that you are "working hard and stop treating the residents of Brighton as though we are idiots. The simple fact is that you are utterly incompetent and it does not matter how hard you work. This problem has been around from months not just for the last week. If you had been doing your job the dispute would have been settled before a strike was called. You have two options: resign and go or settle the dispute today and get the men back to work.
Dear Penny Thompson Stop telling us that you are "working hard and stop treating the residents of Brighton as though we are idiots. The simple fact is that you are utterly incompetent and it does not matter how hard you work. This problem has been around from months not just for the last week. If you had been doing your job the dispute would have been settled before a strike was called. You have two options: resign and go or settle the dispute today and get the men back to work. Morpheus
  • Score: 0

9:16am Thu 20 Jun 13

patchamres says...

Hang on a second!! Is there any proof at all that this was a bin ban and not a random thug jumping on the band wagon.

And please, does anyone know if you can oust a council through a vote of no confidence or similar? Our town is being strangled by the Greens and they need to go before they kill it.
Hang on a second!! Is there any proof at all that this was a bin ban and not a random thug jumping on the band wagon. And please, does anyone know if you can oust a council through a vote of no confidence or similar? Our town is being strangled by the Greens and they need to go before they kill it. patchamres
  • Score: 0

9:19am Thu 20 Jun 13

Michael Inkpin-Leissner says...

I am shocked about some comments here. They are not helpful and increase hateful feelings on both sides and do not help to solve the problem.

Most of us agree in one thing:

Jason Kitkat and the Greens need to go. People do not like being governed by blind ideology. I shall remind the Greens but as well the rest of he council parties that they are here for the well-being of all citizens of Brighton & Hove, not just for their voters.
All of you Councillors remember, your power is given to you only for time and can be withdrawn harshly.

From what I listened too and enquired I feel with the bin men in general, however the action of this bin man in particular was unacceptable and should be followed up. I urge the UNION to do something about it. The right to strike does not give you the right to break the law. The Union must recognise that they cannot force people to accept health and safety hazards. With all due respect, public health has to be maintained. Where food and health risks are evolving, the union members should actually help cleaning up to show their passion for this city.
To be quite frank, why don't union members do not demonstrate in front of the involved Councillors houses? Make them feel as uncomfortable as you feel.
And can I finally ask all parties of the opposition to stop thinking in political guidelines and stand united against this incompetent council leader and his party. May I remind Tories and Labour that their responsibilty towards the citizens of Brighton and Hove should always come first and before political loyalties. If tories and labour do not act now, extemists parties like UKIP or even the EDL gain.
It is time to act responsible.
In this sence I urge the council to withdraw its proposal for the time being and the Union to let people clear up the city. Sit together like professionals and like passionate citizens of this city, as you all pretend to be!
I am shocked about some comments here. They are not helpful and increase hateful feelings on both sides and do not help to solve the problem. Most of us agree in one thing: Jason Kitkat and the Greens need to go. People do not like being governed by blind ideology. I shall remind the Greens but as well the rest of he council parties that they are here for the well-being of all citizens of Brighton & Hove, not just for their voters. All of you Councillors remember, your power is given to you only for time and can be withdrawn harshly. From what I listened too and enquired I feel with the bin men in general, however the action of this bin man in particular was unacceptable and should be followed up. I urge the UNION to do something about it. The right to strike does not give you the right to break the law. The Union must recognise that they cannot force people to accept health and safety hazards. With all due respect, public health has to be maintained. Where food and health risks are evolving, the union members should actually help cleaning up to show their passion for this city. To be quite frank, why don't union members do not demonstrate in front of the involved Councillors houses? Make them feel as uncomfortable as you feel. And can I finally ask all parties of the opposition to stop thinking in political guidelines and stand united against this incompetent council leader and his party. May I remind Tories and Labour that their responsibilty towards the citizens of Brighton and Hove should always come first and before political loyalties. If tories and labour do not act now, extemists parties like UKIP or even the EDL gain. It is time to act responsible. In this sence I urge the council to withdraw its proposal for the time being and the Union to let people clear up the city. Sit together like professionals and like passionate citizens of this city, as you all pretend to be! Michael Inkpin-Leissner
  • Score: 0

9:19am Thu 20 Jun 13

FC says...

All I'm hearing is a lot of Cityclean workers calling everyone "scabs" for wanting to clean up their city.

How about we all club together, clean up the city, then dump it at the GMB headquarters? Who, by the way, have perfectly empty PRIVATE bins out the back of their Church Road office!
All I'm hearing is a lot of Cityclean workers calling everyone "scabs" for wanting to clean up their city. How about we all club together, clean up the city, then dump it at the GMB headquarters? Who, by the way, have perfectly empty PRIVATE bins out the back of their Church Road office! FC
  • Score: 0

9:23am Thu 20 Jun 13

Stephen Vinall says...

Eugenius wrote:
Stephen Vinall wrote:
We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this!

The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too!

Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around.

Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.
The city council already pays all its workers at least the living wage of £7.45 per hour, which is higher than the minimum wage, and was one of the first councils in the country to do so.
CityClean staff will still get allowances under the new deal, but some of the allowances that were introduced when the 2009 strike was settled have been found to be legally problematic since they are only available to a small numer of the workforce.
The point was more about a fair wage. The legislation wasn't about reducing pay and allowances - it was about bringing the pay (allowances etc...) of low paid (predominately women) workers up to the same level - something this council and other public bodies have refused to do. Instead they have brought pay and allowances down to the lowest paid - this shows how morally bankrupt the system is.

Good on the the GMB, if it was able to secure decent allowances - these are essential workers, no less valuable to this city as teachers, nurses and others
[quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen Vinall[/bold] wrote: We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this! The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too! Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around. Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.[/p][/quote]The city council already pays all its workers at least the living wage of £7.45 per hour, which is higher than the minimum wage, and was one of the first councils in the country to do so. CityClean staff will still get allowances under the new deal, but some of the allowances that were introduced when the 2009 strike was settled have been found to be legally problematic since they are only available to a small numer of the workforce.[/p][/quote]The point was more about a fair wage. The legislation wasn't about reducing pay and allowances - it was about bringing the pay (allowances etc...) of low paid (predominately women) workers up to the same level - something this council and other public bodies have refused to do. Instead they have brought pay and allowances down to the lowest paid - this shows how morally bankrupt the system is. Good on the the GMB, if it was able to secure decent allowances - these are essential workers, no less valuable to this city as teachers, nurses and others Stephen Vinall
  • Score: 0

9:24am Thu 20 Jun 13

Eugenius says...

raymondo999 wrote:
Can we have some facts on this dispute? Not just the same old 90 per cent won't lose and bin men will lose £4000. I've followed the argus links to the relevant council papers and its just management gobblygook, absolutely no facts. So argus do a bit of research: how much do the bin men currently earn, how much are their allowances, what will change for who after the changes are implemented?
From the last dispute in 2009: "CityClean staff have said they believe their wages will be cut from current rates, which average £19,000 a year, to match the wages of other ‘unskilled workers’ such as teaching assistants, who earn less than £15,000. Leaked documents revealed they would be sacked if they did not accept the deal, The Argus reports." The strikers won and were regraded as skilled workers. Good for them. That part of the settlement was legally ok.
[quote][p][bold]raymondo999[/bold] wrote: Can we have some facts on this dispute? Not just the same old 90 per cent won't lose and bin men will lose £4000. I've followed the argus links to the relevant council papers and its just management gobblygook, absolutely no facts. So argus do a bit of research: how much do the bin men currently earn, how much are their allowances, what will change for who after the changes are implemented?[/p][/quote]From the last dispute in 2009: "CityClean staff have said they believe their wages will be cut from current rates, which average £19,000 a year, to match the wages of other ‘unskilled workers’ such as teaching assistants, who earn less than £15,000. Leaked documents revealed they would be sacked if they did not accept the deal, The Argus reports." The strikers won and were regraded as skilled workers. Good for them. That part of the settlement was legally ok. Eugenius
  • Score: 0

9:25am Thu 20 Jun 13

PenPushingPauper says...

fredaj wrote:
roystony wrote:
medianscore wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.
My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.
This situation would exist with or without the greens and if the greens were to go or Jason was to resign the pickle of the allowances and the dominance of the binmen would not go away.
This is the first sensible statement anyone has made on this thread... This is NOT a GREEN issue. Just an issue.

Reading Argus comments always confuses me... How can such a free-thinking beautiful city be housing so many bigoted residents?

People who presumably start a lot of sentences with ''I'm not racist...But!''

Come on Brighton. Progress a little
[quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.[/p][/quote]My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.[/p][/quote]This situation would exist with or without the greens and if the greens were to go or Jason was to resign the pickle of the allowances and the dominance of the binmen would not go away.[/p][/quote]This is the first sensible statement anyone has made on this thread... This is NOT a GREEN issue. Just an issue. Reading Argus comments always confuses me... How can such a free-thinking beautiful city be housing so many bigoted residents? People who presumably start a lot of sentences with ''I'm not racist...But!'' Come on Brighton. Progress a little PenPushingPauper
  • Score: 0

9:28am Thu 20 Jun 13

Maxwell's Ghost says...

The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated.
A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot.
A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50.
The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.
The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers. Maxwell's Ghost
  • Score: 0

9:33am Thu 20 Jun 13

Stephen Vinall says...

PenPushingPauper wrote:
fredaj wrote:
roystony wrote:
medianscore wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.
My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.
This situation would exist with or without the greens and if the greens were to go or Jason was to resign the pickle of the allowances and the dominance of the binmen would not go away.
This is the first sensible statement anyone has made on this thread... This is NOT a GREEN issue. Just an issue.

Reading Argus comments always confuses me... How can such a free-thinking beautiful city be housing so many bigoted residents?

People who presumably start a lot of sentences with ''I'm not racist...But!''

Come on Brighton. Progress a little
Unfortunately, it is now a Green credibility issue given the way they have handed the matter. Total lack of experience!

You might argue that the other parties are equally culpable - they had the political experience, but could see it was a can of worms, so chose to do nothing...

Unfortunately "real" people are stuck in the middle of this dispute - CityClean workers.

I also agree that there are some twisted people on this blog!
[quote][p][bold]PenPushingPauper[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: My advice to business owners and residents is to join together and clear and tidy up the rubbish. Have a friend, family member or colleague video the work and if you are assaulted by one of these strikers then call the Police and then prosecute them for assault. Don't let these union thugs intimidate you because at the end of the day it is OUR community.[/p][/quote]My advice is not to do this. Something has to be done to get the greens out and this seems to be the best option. Green party don't listen to the general public, they just do what they want, for example speed limits and cycle lanes. They are ruining our town.[/p][/quote]This situation would exist with or without the greens and if the greens were to go or Jason was to resign the pickle of the allowances and the dominance of the binmen would not go away.[/p][/quote]This is the first sensible statement anyone has made on this thread... This is NOT a GREEN issue. Just an issue. Reading Argus comments always confuses me... How can such a free-thinking beautiful city be housing so many bigoted residents? People who presumably start a lot of sentences with ''I'm not racist...But!'' Come on Brighton. Progress a little[/p][/quote]Unfortunately, it is now a Green credibility issue given the way they have handed the matter. Total lack of experience! You might argue that the other parties are equally culpable - they had the political experience, but could see it was a can of worms, so chose to do nothing... Unfortunately "real" people are stuck in the middle of this dispute - CityClean workers. I also agree that there are some twisted people on this blog! Stephen Vinall
  • Score: 0

9:33am Thu 20 Jun 13

comanche762 says...

if striking binmen are ripping open bags of decent citizens well they dont deserve there jobs , i was in support of them but now i see them as stubborn and arrogant as the council , sack em all
if striking binmen are ripping open bags of decent citizens well they dont deserve there jobs , i was in support of them but now i see them as stubborn and arrogant as the council , sack em all comanche762
  • Score: 0

9:36am Thu 20 Jun 13

clubrob6 says...

This is just a sign of the times in the UK,the top running councils,nhs,banks ETC are getting pay rises and massive bonuses even when they have failed.While the working class and poorer paid are facing the brunt of the cuts,pay freezes and cuts are now the norm.The council have forced these workers into strike so DONT blame the binmen.Anyone who thinks a £4000 pay cut is OK should donate the same to charity.£4000 out of a lower wage makes a big difference I hope the bin men stick it out as the green council now know they are NOT fit for purpose.Next they will be filling bowling greens in OOOPs they have already done that at great cost.
This is just a sign of the times in the UK,the top running councils,nhs,banks ETC are getting pay rises and massive bonuses even when they have failed.While the working class and poorer paid are facing the brunt of the cuts,pay freezes and cuts are now the norm.The council have forced these workers into strike so DONT blame the binmen.Anyone who thinks a £4000 pay cut is OK should donate the same to charity.£4000 out of a lower wage makes a big difference I hope the bin men stick it out as the green council now know they are NOT fit for purpose.Next they will be filling bowling greens in OOOPs they have already done that at great cost. clubrob6
  • Score: 0

9:36am Thu 20 Jun 13

Eugenius says...

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated.
A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot.
A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50.
The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.
Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.
[quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.[/p][/quote]Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer. Eugenius
  • Score: 0

9:43am Thu 20 Jun 13

ThinkBrighton says...

The council say they are unable to clear the mess up, all it needs is an affected trader to make an official complaint to the health and safety exec because of a danger to public health. safety and well being, and they will force the council to clean up the mess.
the council is using one law to not clean up whereas there is another law that says they must clean up.
The council say they are unable to clear the mess up, all it needs is an affected trader to make an official complaint to the health and safety exec because of a danger to public health. safety and well being, and they will force the council to clean up the mess. the council is using one law to not clean up whereas there is another law that says they must clean up. ThinkBrighton
  • Score: 0

9:45am Thu 20 Jun 13

NickBrt says...

Now just need to get rid of Jason and caroline
Now just need to get rid of Jason and caroline NickBrt
  • Score: 0

9:47am Thu 20 Jun 13

reddogs says...

Yes I feel sorry for the bin men but what right do they have to hold the town to ransom its not the towns fault and they are going to get compensation.But they are working over the week -end of course they will work its more than likely they get time & half and double time then strike again on Monday very good I dont think
Yes I feel sorry for the bin men but what right do they have to hold the town to ransom its not the towns fault and they are going to get compensation.But they are working over the week -end of course they will work its more than likely they get time & half and double time then strike again on Monday very good I dont think reddogs
  • Score: 0

9:49am Thu 20 Jun 13

Stephen Vinall says...

ThinkBrighton wrote:
The council say they are unable to clear the mess up, all it needs is an affected trader to make an official complaint to the health and safety exec because of a danger to public health. safety and well being, and they will force the council to clean up the mess.
the council is using one law to not clean up whereas there is another law that says they must clean up.
This is about credibility - the Greens aren't going to allow agency workers in, as it will blow any credibility they have locally and nationally - it will make them totally unelectable. So, over to you Jason - hard decisions need to be made - such as: bag packing and a few apologies for the mess YOU'VE made of it all.

It's going to be interesting to see how the voters in Hanover respond in the by-election...
[quote][p][bold]ThinkBrighton[/bold] wrote: The council say they are unable to clear the mess up, all it needs is an affected trader to make an official complaint to the health and safety exec because of a danger to public health. safety and well being, and they will force the council to clean up the mess. the council is using one law to not clean up whereas there is another law that says they must clean up.[/p][/quote]This is about credibility - the Greens aren't going to allow agency workers in, as it will blow any credibility they have locally and nationally - it will make them totally unelectable. So, over to you Jason - hard decisions need to be made - such as: bag packing and a few apologies for the mess YOU'VE made of it all. It's going to be interesting to see how the voters in Hanover respond in the by-election... Stephen Vinall
  • Score: 0

9:50am Thu 20 Jun 13

major_m says...

The dispute itself aside, this is now a serious health and safety issue.

Why are there no plans in place to act/replace service while the strike is ongoing?
Yes, Councillor's, you need to pay for some other outfit to clean the streets that we pay you to clean while you struggle to get your house in order.

In addition, it makes me laugh (hard) that you have spent/loaned millions of tax payers money to plan and erect that god awful i360 embarrassment that you believe will drive extra visitors into town and spend more of their money. Meanwhile, you are solely responsible for Brighton's new reputation as the dirtiest filthiest seaside town in Europe, which are driving visitors and residents out of town to spend their money elsewhere.

Unbelievable...
The dispute itself aside, this is now a serious health and safety issue. Why are there no plans in place to act/replace service while the strike is ongoing? Yes, Councillor's, you need to pay for some other outfit to clean the streets that we pay you to clean while you struggle to get your house in order. In addition, it makes me laugh (hard) that you have spent/loaned millions of tax payers money to plan and erect that god awful i360 embarrassment that you believe will drive extra visitors into town and spend more of their money. Meanwhile, you are solely responsible for Brighton's new reputation as the dirtiest filthiest seaside town in Europe, which are driving visitors and residents out of town to spend their money elsewhere. Unbelievable... major_m
  • Score: 0

9:53am Thu 20 Jun 13

Maxwell's Ghost says...

Penny accepted a lower wage as the economy drives the salaries of new positions. Chief execs salaries can also be enhanced with bonuses and benefits unlike jobs further down the scale.
However, this is the council which has paid off numerous directors and chief executives with council tax payers money without explanation.
If these individuals were failing to perform they should have been managed out not given golden handshakes the details of which are not in the public domin despite tax payers money being used.
These individuals then walk into other top public sector jobs at the top.
Then we have elected members making financial decisions which have a huge impact on tax payers, the vast and growing parking revenue shortfall being an example of this. Yet will they face a financial penalty for financial mismanagement? No this lot will walk away from any penalty for making an utter mess. They are just like bankers.
Penny accepted a lower wage as the economy drives the salaries of new positions. Chief execs salaries can also be enhanced with bonuses and benefits unlike jobs further down the scale. However, this is the council which has paid off numerous directors and chief executives with council tax payers money without explanation. If these individuals were failing to perform they should have been managed out not given golden handshakes the details of which are not in the public domin despite tax payers money being used. These individuals then walk into other top public sector jobs at the top. Then we have elected members making financial decisions which have a huge impact on tax payers, the vast and growing parking revenue shortfall being an example of this. Yet will they face a financial penalty for financial mismanagement? No this lot will walk away from any penalty for making an utter mess. They are just like bankers. Maxwell's Ghost
  • Score: 0

9:56am Thu 20 Jun 13

lillylou says...

i can get why they are doing it if its outside their door especially homes but if the gov thinks he can cut wages it will happen everwhere so the poorer people of btn unite and do not give in unless of course you have flies and stench outside your own door
i can get why they are doing it if its outside their door especially homes but if the gov thinks he can cut wages it will happen everwhere so the poorer people of btn unite and do not give in unless of course you have flies and stench outside your own door lillylou
  • Score: 0

9:58am Thu 20 Jun 13

Eugenius says...

major_m wrote:
The dispute itself aside, this is now a serious health and safety issue.

Why are there no plans in place to act/replace service while the strike is ongoing?
Yes, Councillor's, you need to pay for some other outfit to clean the streets that we pay you to clean while you struggle to get your house in order.

In addition, it makes me laugh (hard) that you have spent/loaned millions of tax payers money to plan and erect that god awful i360 embarrassment that you believe will drive extra visitors into town and spend more of their money. Meanwhile, you are solely responsible for Brighton's new reputation as the dirtiest filthiest seaside town in Europe, which are driving visitors and residents out of town to spend their money elsewhere.

Unbelievable...
It's illegal to use agencies to supply labour to replace striking workers.

I'll believe it when I see it but the council is supposed to make a profit on the i360 loan. But that's a capital investment scheme which can't be used to pay salaries anyway.
[quote][p][bold]major_m[/bold] wrote: The dispute itself aside, this is now a serious health and safety issue. Why are there no plans in place to act/replace service while the strike is ongoing? Yes, Councillor's, you need to pay for some other outfit to clean the streets that we pay you to clean while you struggle to get your house in order. In addition, it makes me laugh (hard) that you have spent/loaned millions of tax payers money to plan and erect that god awful i360 embarrassment that you believe will drive extra visitors into town and spend more of their money. Meanwhile, you are solely responsible for Brighton's new reputation as the dirtiest filthiest seaside town in Europe, which are driving visitors and residents out of town to spend their money elsewhere. Unbelievable...[/p][/quote]It's illegal to use agencies to supply labour to replace striking workers. I'll believe it when I see it but the council is supposed to make a profit on the i360 loan. But that's a capital investment scheme which can't be used to pay salaries anyway. Eugenius
  • Score: 0

10:10am Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

Balmy zephyrs wrote:
Penny Thompson ..... Go back to North London we do not want a social worker heading our council ..... Just go you do not belong here !
agreed... greens get out... all of you now!
[quote][p][bold]Balmy zephyrs[/bold] wrote: Penny Thompson ..... Go back to North London we do not want a social worker heading our council ..... Just go you do not belong here ![/p][/quote]agreed... greens get out... all of you now! tradebooker
  • Score: 0

10:12am Thu 20 Jun 13

AGT999 says...

roystony wrote:
Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves.

Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.
You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power.
[quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves. Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.[/p][/quote]You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power. AGT999
  • Score: 0

10:14am Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

Eugenius wrote:
Maxwell's Ghost wrote: The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.
Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.
this is the problem... wage deferentials, equal pay - it dont make common sense... something the greens are amazing at not understanding!

people earn different wage for different skill sets, for demand of that skill set, for the value they are adding, for the hours they work, for their competency... their are a host of reasons why...

so reducing the pay differential is dumb... it leads to thinks like this... equal pay... codswallop!

the greens cannot get this...

jokers..
[quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.[/p][/quote]Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.[/p][/quote]this is the problem... wage deferentials, equal pay - it dont make common sense... something the greens are amazing at not understanding! people earn different wage for different skill sets, for demand of that skill set, for the value they are adding, for the hours they work, for their competency... their are a host of reasons why... so reducing the pay differential is dumb... it leads to thinks like this... equal pay... codswallop! the greens cannot get this... jokers.. tradebooker
  • Score: 0

10:18am Thu 20 Jun 13

fredflintstone1 says...

Eugenius wrote:
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated.
A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot.
A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50.
The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.
Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.
She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what??

It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense.
[quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.[/p][/quote]Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.[/p][/quote]She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what?? It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense. fredflintstone1
  • Score: 0

10:20am Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

AGT999 wrote:
roystony wrote: Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves. Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.
You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power.
part truth.. yes greens had a big agressive campaign that focused in on students... but remember they won all 3 seats in Golsmid (7 dials) where they had none before... they won new seats in Central Hove, 2 in Brunswick from Liberals, Hollingbury... and even a new seat in deep blue Withdean.. (well westdene really which isnt more light blue/pink)..

it was a protest vote... that people now realised was a big mistake..

we got to get those goldmid votes back tho... and theyve done up the 7 dials!! although it was cause load more traffic so peeps up there wont like that...

Greens love a bit of traffic..
[quote][p][bold]AGT999[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves. Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.[/p][/quote]You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power.[/p][/quote]part truth.. yes greens had a big agressive campaign that focused in on students... but remember they won all 3 seats in Golsmid (7 dials) where they had none before... they won new seats in Central Hove, 2 in Brunswick from Liberals, Hollingbury... and even a new seat in deep blue Withdean.. (well westdene really which isnt more light blue/pink).. it was a protest vote... that people now realised was a big mistake.. we got to get those goldmid votes back tho... and theyve done up the 7 dials!! although it was cause load more traffic so peeps up there wont like that... Greens love a bit of traffic.. tradebooker
  • Score: 0

10:32am Thu 20 Jun 13

Eugenius says...

fredflintstone1 wrote:
Eugenius wrote:
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated.
A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot.
A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50.
The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.
Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.
She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what??

It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense.
Penny Thompson's lack of experience:
Chief Executive at General Social Care Council
Deputy CEO at NHS Haringey
Chief Executive at London Borough of Hackney
Executive Director,Social Services at Sheffield City Council
And she has a CBE for services to social work. And has been a union shop steward in her time. As chief execs go she has good ethics.
[quote][p][bold]fredflintstone1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.[/p][/quote]Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.[/p][/quote]She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what?? It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense.[/p][/quote]Penny Thompson's lack of experience: Chief Executive at General Social Care Council Deputy CEO at NHS Haringey Chief Executive at London Borough of Hackney Executive Director,Social Services at Sheffield City Council And she has a CBE for services to social work. And has been a union shop steward in her time. As chief execs go she has good ethics. Eugenius
  • Score: 0

10:35am Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Penny accepted a lower wage as the economy drives the salaries of new positions. Chief execs salaries can also be enhanced with bonuses and benefits unlike jobs further down the scale. However, this is the council which has paid off numerous directors and chief executives with council tax payers money without explanation. If these individuals were failing to perform they should have been managed out not given golden handshakes the details of which are not in the public domin despite tax payers money being used. These individuals then walk into other top public sector jobs at the top. Then we have elected members making financial decisions which have a huge impact on tax payers, the vast and growing parking revenue shortfall being an example of this. Yet will they face a financial penalty for financial mismanagement? No this lot will walk away from any penalty for making an utter mess. They are just like bankers.
without the bankers, there would be no investment banks... without the investment banks there securitization market wouldnt have been born and more importantly there wouldnt have been financing to support it... and without all that our house prices, wages, standard of living would still be at 1980s levels.. (sorry, just wanted to stand up for 'bankers')... anyway this problem is born from the greens' political ideology... further left than labour it doesnt work.. if someone is more valuable than someone else in life they will command a higher wage.. how much do we value our Binmen... pretty high now... so talking about living wage, £7.45.. talking about equalising their pay and allownances to some admin temp typing up council meeting minutes, talking about 12:1 -> 10:1... no that aint gonna help things, that will make things work.. cos the world dont work like that... its against human nature.. and peeps dont think nits fair unless their jobs are 100% identical, their comptenancy 100% identical, their skills 100% identical etc.. etc..

Green is form of westernised communism.. equality regardless of hoe much effort people are willing to put in, how much talent people have, how much skill-set they have, how much nouse..

make education, training, working, upskilling an easier choice than living off others and your onto a winner.. but that goes against what greens believe in.
[quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: Penny accepted a lower wage as the economy drives the salaries of new positions. Chief execs salaries can also be enhanced with bonuses and benefits unlike jobs further down the scale. However, this is the council which has paid off numerous directors and chief executives with council tax payers money without explanation. If these individuals were failing to perform they should have been managed out not given golden handshakes the details of which are not in the public domin despite tax payers money being used. These individuals then walk into other top public sector jobs at the top. Then we have elected members making financial decisions which have a huge impact on tax payers, the vast and growing parking revenue shortfall being an example of this. Yet will they face a financial penalty for financial mismanagement? No this lot will walk away from any penalty for making an utter mess. They are just like bankers.[/p][/quote]without the bankers, there would be no investment banks... without the investment banks there securitization market wouldnt have been born and more importantly there wouldnt have been financing to support it... and without all that our house prices, wages, standard of living would still be at 1980s levels.. (sorry, just wanted to stand up for 'bankers')... anyway this problem is born from the greens' political ideology... further left than labour it doesnt work.. if someone is more valuable than someone else in life they will command a higher wage.. how much do we value our Binmen... pretty high now... so talking about living wage, £7.45.. talking about equalising their pay and allownances to some admin temp typing up council meeting minutes, talking about 12:1 -> 10:1... no that aint gonna help things, that will make things work.. cos the world dont work like that... its against human nature.. and peeps dont think nits fair unless their jobs are 100% identical, their comptenancy 100% identical, their skills 100% identical etc.. etc.. Green is form of westernised communism.. equality regardless of hoe much effort people are willing to put in, how much talent people have, how much skill-set they have, how much nouse.. make education, training, working, upskilling an easier choice than living off others and your onto a winner.. but that goes against what greens believe in. tradebooker
  • Score: 0

10:40am Thu 20 Jun 13

Maxwell's Ghost says...

My comment was merely a statement of fact not a criticism of bankers. They did what they were allowed to to, apart from the libor fixing.
The Green councillors making a mess of the city, socially and economically, is the same, so perhaps we need to a change to the responsibilities of holding elected position as The Govt is doing with banking.
My comment was merely a statement of fact not a criticism of bankers. They did what they were allowed to to, apart from the libor fixing. The Green councillors making a mess of the city, socially and economically, is the same, so perhaps we need to a change to the responsibilities of holding elected position as The Govt is doing with banking. Maxwell's Ghost
  • Score: 0

10:47am Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

Poccypoc wrote:
I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea. GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT! Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden. To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do.
do you think Martin luther King yielded to the hard-lined Yankee Republicans, that Churchill didnt endure some pain in kirbing facismm, that Kennedy would have caved in to his War Ministers intent on invading Cuba..

Bigger picture here... leave the rubbish yeah.. its symbolises the worst of the Green council... a party this town is sick and tired off and want out.. just have a look at all the argus threads, the Latest Mag poll here (http://thelatest.co
.uk/brighton/2012/11
/06/the-vote-who-wou
ld-you-vote-for-toda
y/)

These guys aint getting paid when they strike, they are suffering for u, for a great tomorrow, to overcome the nasty, comptemptous, biggoted greens... a couple of weeks of rubbish is a small ask.. for years of struggle..
[quote][p][bold]Poccypoc[/bold] wrote: I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea. GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT! Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden. To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do.[/p][/quote]do you think Martin luther King yielded to the hard-lined Yankee Republicans, that Churchill didnt endure some pain in kirbing facismm, that Kennedy would have caved in to his War Ministers intent on invading Cuba.. Bigger picture here... leave the rubbish yeah.. its symbolises the worst of the Green council... a party this town is sick and tired off and want out.. just have a look at all the argus threads, the Latest Mag poll here (http://thelatest.co .uk/brighton/2012/11 /06/the-vote-who-wou ld-you-vote-for-toda y/) These guys aint getting paid when they strike, they are suffering for u, for a great tomorrow, to overcome the nasty, comptemptous, biggoted greens... a couple of weeks of rubbish is a small ask.. for years of struggle.. tradebooker
  • Score: 0

10:51am Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
My comment was merely a statement of fact not a criticism of bankers. They did what they were allowed to to, apart from the libor fixing. The Green councillors making a mess of the city, socially and economically, is the same, so perhaps we need to a change to the responsibilities of holding elected position as The Govt is doing with banking.
yeah interestin idea... kinda independant council regulation body.. 4 eyes some of these stupid policies before they enter the press.. may have asked the obvous quesiton of "why dont you go actually talk with GMB and work somethign out prior to bombarding them with this which they were always gonna go potty about".. negotiation.. key.
[quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: My comment was merely a statement of fact not a criticism of bankers. They did what they were allowed to to, apart from the libor fixing. The Green councillors making a mess of the city, socially and economically, is the same, so perhaps we need to a change to the responsibilities of holding elected position as The Govt is doing with banking.[/p][/quote]yeah interestin idea... kinda independant council regulation body.. 4 eyes some of these stupid policies before they enter the press.. may have asked the obvous quesiton of "why dont you go actually talk with GMB and work somethign out prior to bombarding them with this which they were always gonna go potty about".. negotiation.. key. tradebooker
  • Score: 0

11:15am Thu 20 Jun 13

ThornyJim says...

Anyone that supports this strike is a naiive fool. Unlike many of the people posting here, I have actually been a binman and it is a very easy job. You are out doors all day keeping fit and healthy, not a care in the world and there are plenty of places to park up where management can't see you to have a sleep or extended break. You start early enough and work on a task and finish basis to be able to go home by lunch time, which means that you can have a second job in the afternoon! All the guys I worked with had plenty of money and many of the refuse drivers bought brand new cars every 3 years. Being a refuse driver is far easier than doing long distance HGV work. For starters you are back home with wives and families every night of the week...not many long distance lorry drivers can do that. Have no sympathy for these strikers, they know they are on a good deal and the GMB are nothing more than a bunch of bullying thugs that have held this city to ransom for far too long. The story about the abusive striker attacking an innocent shop keeper plainly illustrates this fact. As a council tax payer, I want to pay a fair rate of tax and to know that the council is doing everything it can to keep a lid on costs....even more so in the current economic climate (our country is basically bankrupt in case you don't read the news). Well done to the Greens for actually trying to sort out a bureacratic mess that successive Labour and Tory councils have failed to get to grips with. Don't be taken in by the strikers and the dreadful GMB, fight them every step of the way!!
Anyone that supports this strike is a naiive fool. Unlike many of the people posting here, I have actually been a binman and it is a very easy job. You are out doors all day keeping fit and healthy, not a care in the world and there are plenty of places to park up where management can't see you to have a sleep or extended break. You start early enough and work on a task and finish basis to be able to go home by lunch time, which means that you can have a second job in the afternoon! All the guys I worked with had plenty of money and many of the refuse drivers bought brand new cars every 3 years. Being a refuse driver is far easier than doing long distance HGV work. For starters you are back home with wives and families every night of the week...not many long distance lorry drivers can do that. Have no sympathy for these strikers, they know they are on a good deal and the GMB are nothing more than a bunch of bullying thugs that have held this city to ransom for far too long. The story about the abusive striker attacking an innocent shop keeper plainly illustrates this fact. As a council tax payer, I want to pay a fair rate of tax and to know that the council is doing everything it can to keep a lid on costs....even more so in the current economic climate (our country is basically bankrupt in case you don't read the news). Well done to the Greens for actually trying to sort out a bureacratic mess that successive Labour and Tory councils have failed to get to grips with. Don't be taken in by the strikers and the dreadful GMB, fight them every step of the way!! ThornyJim
  • Score: 0

11:19am Thu 20 Jun 13

Valerie Paynter says...

Eugenius wrote:
fredflintstone1 wrote:
Eugenius wrote:
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated.
A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot.
A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50.
The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.
Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.
She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what??

It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense.
Penny Thompson's lack of experience:
Chief Executive at General Social Care Council
Deputy CEO at NHS Haringey
Chief Executive at London Borough of Hackney
Executive Director,Social Services at Sheffield City Council
And she has a CBE for services to social work. And has been a union shop steward in her time. As chief execs go she has good ethics.
I worry about people with lots of job experience showing on a cv....looks like job-hopping and advertising more than experienced and qualified and reliable. And it can sometimes mean jumped-before-pushed
.

This dispute is our first opportunity to see what Penny Thompson is made of - out in the open - and over and above what was agreed at Budget Council which now sees staff losses across the council.

She will surely have had a hand in those losses - such as Gil Sweetenham (Schools) and Geoff Bennett (Conservation within the Planning Dept). I'm told there are a lot of others as well.

And of course people reliant on home helps to cope are being cut loose too. You don't hear from them as they are so humiliated and have no union.

This is the context for how I see the bin strikers. Some have been unfairly getting more than their peers for a number of years and it is now being tackled by the Council as it sees legal consequences for allowing it to continue.
[quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredflintstone1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.[/p][/quote]Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.[/p][/quote]She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what?? It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense.[/p][/quote]Penny Thompson's lack of experience: Chief Executive at General Social Care Council Deputy CEO at NHS Haringey Chief Executive at London Borough of Hackney Executive Director,Social Services at Sheffield City Council And she has a CBE for services to social work. And has been a union shop steward in her time. As chief execs go she has good ethics.[/p][/quote]I worry about people with lots of job experience showing on a cv....looks like job-hopping and advertising more than experienced and qualified and reliable. And it can sometimes mean jumped-before-pushed . This dispute is our first opportunity to see what Penny Thompson is made of - out in the open - and over and above what was agreed at Budget Council which now sees staff losses across the council. She will surely have had a hand in those losses - such as Gil Sweetenham (Schools) and Geoff Bennett (Conservation within the Planning Dept). I'm told there are a lot of others as well. And of course people reliant on home helps to cope are being cut loose too. You don't hear from them as they are so humiliated and have no union. This is the context for how I see the bin strikers. Some have been unfairly getting more than their peers for a number of years and it is now being tackled by the Council as it sees legal consequences for allowing it to continue. Valerie Paynter
  • Score: 0

11:22am Thu 20 Jun 13

Pebbles says...

There should be no interference with anyone who has taken the initiative to do a bit of clearing up.

The odd/few people who do just want to have a better environment to live in which does not necessarily mean they are going against any strike action.

The rubbish does not exclusively belong to the refuse collection, and people are just taking responsibility for themselves, especially the business owners.

However, the council need to pull their finger out and get this sorted now.
There should be no interference with anyone who has taken the initiative to do a bit of clearing up. The odd/few people who do just want to have a better environment to live in which does not necessarily mean they are going against any strike action. The rubbish does not exclusively belong to the refuse collection, and people are just taking responsibility for themselves, especially the business owners. However, the council need to pull their finger out and get this sorted now. Pebbles
  • Score: 0

11:28am Thu 20 Jun 13

Eastbourner says...

Stephen Vinall wrote:
We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this!

The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too!

Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around.

Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.
Whilst there is no doubt the CityClean workers work very hard, the reason they are on minimum wage is because you do not need any qualifications to do that job! I doubt very much they have any school/college/unive
rsity qualifications and without these you are likely to find unqualified jobs that pay the minimum wage, that unfortunately is not the fault of the local community, I would suggest they suspend any pay and see how many are back working on the streets tomorrow, there are clearly thousands of unemployed people who would jump at the chance of getting their jobs.
[quote][p][bold]Stephen Vinall[/bold] wrote: We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this! The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too! Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around. Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.[/p][/quote]Whilst there is no doubt the CityClean workers work very hard, the reason they are on minimum wage is because you do not need any qualifications to do that job! I doubt very much they have any school/college/unive rsity qualifications and without these you are likely to find unqualified jobs that pay the minimum wage, that unfortunately is not the fault of the local community, I would suggest they suspend any pay and see how many are back working on the streets tomorrow, there are clearly thousands of unemployed people who would jump at the chance of getting their jobs. Eastbourner
  • Score: 0

11:32am Thu 20 Jun 13

Valerie Paynter says...

Stephen Vinall wrote:
We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this!

The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too!

Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around.

Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.
I have huge respect for the work done by the refuse collectors cleaning up after a filthy, irresponsible public that just does not have much interest in keeping the level of refuse down or even bothering to recycle (some of which gets incinerated when not recyclable).

But I wonder reading your comment how happy you would be with the huge council tax increase that would be needed to pay for what you suggest.

The Greens were prevented from raising the council tax levels to what they wanted in order to deliver exactly this kind of thng.....by Labour and the Conservatives....ove
r the last 2 years and by central Govt. savagely slashing the local authority grant to this area and offering comparatively small bribes - a million here or there - so the public can be misled that it is equal to what a tax hike would have provided.

Take pity on the employed in this city's private sector who are also low-paid and who struggle with obscenely high rents and house prices, along with expensive bus and train costs.

If Kitcat and Thompson give in to the baying mob in the Green Party and opportunist opposition politicians and MP's weighing in, it will be the low-paid in the private sector whose lives will inevitably take the brunt of the consequences.

Why are these few privileged refuse people who have had higher allowances than their colleagues over many years (that they KNEW would have to be cut eventually) of more importance and value than everyone else?
[quote][p][bold]Stephen Vinall[/bold] wrote: We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this! The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too! Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around. Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.[/p][/quote]I have huge respect for the work done by the refuse collectors cleaning up after a filthy, irresponsible public that just does not have much interest in keeping the level of refuse down or even bothering to recycle (some of which gets incinerated when not recyclable). But I wonder reading your comment how happy you would be with the huge council tax increase that would be needed to pay for what you suggest. The Greens were prevented from raising the council tax levels to what they wanted in order to deliver exactly this kind of thng.....by Labour and the Conservatives....ove r the last 2 years and by central Govt. savagely slashing the local authority grant to this area and offering comparatively small bribes - a million here or there - so the public can be misled that it is equal to what a tax hike would have provided. Take pity on the employed in this city's private sector who are also low-paid and who struggle with obscenely high rents and house prices, along with expensive bus and train costs. If Kitcat and Thompson give in to the baying mob in the Green Party and opportunist opposition politicians and MP's weighing in, it will be the low-paid in the private sector whose lives will inevitably take the brunt of the consequences. Why are these few privileged refuse people who have had higher allowances than their colleagues over many years (that they KNEW would have to be cut eventually) of more importance and value than everyone else? Valerie Paynter
  • Score: 0

11:36am Thu 20 Jun 13

Poccypoc says...

tradebooker wrote:
Poccypoc wrote:
I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea. GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT! Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden. To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do.
do you think Martin luther King yielded to the hard-lined Yankee Republicans, that Churchill didnt endure some pain in kirbing facismm, that Kennedy would have caved in to his War Ministers intent on invading Cuba..

Bigger picture here... leave the rubbish yeah.. its symbolises the worst of the Green council... a party this town is sick and tired off and want out.. just have a look at all the argus threads, the Latest Mag poll here (http://thelatest.co

.uk/brighton/2012/11

/06/the-vote-who-wou

ld-you-vote-for-toda

y/)

These guys aint getting paid when they strike, they are suffering for u, for a great tomorrow, to overcome the nasty, comptemptous, biggoted greens... a couple of weeks of rubbish is a small ask.. for years of struggle..
My message to the binmen is clear - get back to work!

Strikes solve nothing.

Just taken a tour round Hove. Move roads now look like rubbish tips. The only exception was Blatchington Road, which looks like a tip, strike or no strike.
[quote][p][bold]tradebooker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Poccypoc[/bold] wrote: I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea. GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT! Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden. To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do.[/p][/quote]do you think Martin luther King yielded to the hard-lined Yankee Republicans, that Churchill didnt endure some pain in kirbing facismm, that Kennedy would have caved in to his War Ministers intent on invading Cuba.. Bigger picture here... leave the rubbish yeah.. its symbolises the worst of the Green council... a party this town is sick and tired off and want out.. just have a look at all the argus threads, the Latest Mag poll here (http://thelatest.co .uk/brighton/2012/11 /06/the-vote-who-wou ld-you-vote-for-toda y/) These guys aint getting paid when they strike, they are suffering for u, for a great tomorrow, to overcome the nasty, comptemptous, biggoted greens... a couple of weeks of rubbish is a small ask.. for years of struggle..[/p][/quote]My message to the binmen is clear - get back to work! Strikes solve nothing. Just taken a tour round Hove. Move roads now look like rubbish tips. The only exception was Blatchington Road, which looks like a tip, strike or no strike. Poccypoc
  • Score: 0

11:40am Thu 20 Jun 13

Valerie Paynter says...

Eugenius wrote:
Stephen Vinall wrote:
We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this!

The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too!

Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around.

Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.
The city council already pays all its workers at least the living wage of £7.45 per hour, which is higher than the minimum wage, and was one of the first councils in the country to do so.
CityClean staff will still get allowances under the new deal, but some of the allowances that were introduced when the 2009 strike was settled have been found to be legally problematic since they are only available to a small numer of the workforce.
Stark facts and figures. Thank you. Wish the Argus was featuring such information and that the CEO was feeding it to them so they COULD. Penny T??? Do you read these comments?
[quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen Vinall[/bold] wrote: We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this! The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too! Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around. Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.[/p][/quote]The city council already pays all its workers at least the living wage of £7.45 per hour, which is higher than the minimum wage, and was one of the first councils in the country to do so. CityClean staff will still get allowances under the new deal, but some of the allowances that were introduced when the 2009 strike was settled have been found to be legally problematic since they are only available to a small numer of the workforce.[/p][/quote]Stark facts and figures. Thank you. Wish the Argus was featuring such information and that the CEO was feeding it to them so they COULD. Penny T??? Do you read these comments? Valerie Paynter
  • Score: 0

11:45am Thu 20 Jun 13

geoff38 says...

sack the lot of them. plenty of people would take the job which needs zero qualifications. they are a real disgrace.
sack the lot of them. plenty of people would take the job which needs zero qualifications. they are a real disgrace. geoff38
  • Score: 0

11:49am Thu 20 Jun 13

roystony says...

geoff38 wrote:
sack the lot of them. plenty of people would take the job which needs zero qualifications. they are a real disgrace.
Up date your cv then if you're up to the job.
[quote][p][bold]geoff38[/bold] wrote: sack the lot of them. plenty of people would take the job which needs zero qualifications. they are a real disgrace.[/p][/quote]Up date your cv then if you're up to the job. roystony
  • Score: 0

11:53am Thu 20 Jun 13

major_m says...

tradebooker wrote:
Poccypoc wrote:
I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea. GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT! Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden. To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do.
do you think Martin luther King yielded to the hard-lined Yankee Republicans, that Churchill didnt endure some pain in kirbing facismm, that Kennedy would have caved in to his War Ministers intent on invading Cuba..

Bigger picture here... leave the rubbish yeah.. its symbolises the worst of the Green council... a party this town is sick and tired off and want out.. just have a look at all the argus threads, the Latest Mag poll here (http://thelatest.co

.uk/brighton/2012/11

/06/the-vote-who-wou

ld-you-vote-for-toda

y/)

These guys aint getting paid when they strike, they are suffering for u, for a great tomorrow, to overcome the nasty, comptemptous, biggoted greens... a couple of weeks of rubbish is a small ask.. for years of struggle..
Whoa whoa whoa, are you really bringing the great MLK into this rubbish debate???!!! - have some respect!

I am gonna go and pick up some rubbish after seeing this, which has nothing to do with agreeing the council (because I do not) but simply because it is vile out there and symbolises nothing but a dirty filthy state of affair, as this ludicrous reply so clearly demonstrates.
[quote][p][bold]tradebooker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Poccypoc[/bold] wrote: I'm getting so angry reading this article. The poor shop worker at the top just trying to keep the area clean, confronted by some thug who spills all the rubbish over the street. I'm glad I wasn't there because I may well have dragged the thug down George Street, along New Church Road, down Seafield Road, across Kingsway, onto the prom, across the beach and into the sea. GET BACK TO WORK! You don't study at school - you may well end up as a dustman. NOT OUR FAULT! Here in West Blatchington, Hove, it's OK, but I will clear up any rubbish I see in and around my property and garden. To be honest with you, I've not put my rubbish out for the dustman in three years! The geography of my place is such that you have to wheel the bin across the patio, through a gate, round the car and through more gates - then do it all again when the rubbish is taken. I work in London, so leave the house at 6.30am and don't get back until 8pm - so humping rubbish about is the LAST thing I want to do.[/p][/quote]do you think Martin luther King yielded to the hard-lined Yankee Republicans, that Churchill didnt endure some pain in kirbing facismm, that Kennedy would have caved in to his War Ministers intent on invading Cuba.. Bigger picture here... leave the rubbish yeah.. its symbolises the worst of the Green council... a party this town is sick and tired off and want out.. just have a look at all the argus threads, the Latest Mag poll here (http://thelatest.co .uk/brighton/2012/11 /06/the-vote-who-wou ld-you-vote-for-toda y/) These guys aint getting paid when they strike, they are suffering for u, for a great tomorrow, to overcome the nasty, comptemptous, biggoted greens... a couple of weeks of rubbish is a small ask.. for years of struggle..[/p][/quote]Whoa whoa whoa, are you really bringing the great MLK into this rubbish debate???!!! - have some respect! I am gonna go and pick up some rubbish after seeing this, which has nothing to do with agreeing the council (because I do not) but simply because it is vile out there and symbolises nothing but a dirty filthy state of affair, as this ludicrous reply so clearly demonstrates. major_m
  • Score: 0

11:53am Thu 20 Jun 13

Valerie Paynter says...

Eugenius wrote:
major_m wrote:
The dispute itself aside, this is now a serious health and safety issue.

Why are there no plans in place to act/replace service while the strike is ongoing?
Yes, Councillor's, you need to pay for some other outfit to clean the streets that we pay you to clean while you struggle to get your house in order.

In addition, it makes me laugh (hard) that you have spent/loaned millions of tax payers money to plan and erect that god awful i360 embarrassment that you believe will drive extra visitors into town and spend more of their money. Meanwhile, you are solely responsible for Brighton's new reputation as the dirtiest filthiest seaside town in Europe, which are driving visitors and residents out of town to spend their money elsewhere.

Unbelievable...
It's illegal to use agencies to supply labour to replace striking workers.

I'll believe it when I see it but the council is supposed to make a profit on the i360 loan. But that's a capital investment scheme which can't be used to pay salaries anyway.
That supposed profit relies on a stampede of people, on a daily basis, 365, all believing that a look over the grey ribbon or over the green downs is a big deal worth coming all the way from North London or Devon to go up the pole to appreciate.

Pitiable hubris.
[quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]major_m[/bold] wrote: The dispute itself aside, this is now a serious health and safety issue. Why are there no plans in place to act/replace service while the strike is ongoing? Yes, Councillor's, you need to pay for some other outfit to clean the streets that we pay you to clean while you struggle to get your house in order. In addition, it makes me laugh (hard) that you have spent/loaned millions of tax payers money to plan and erect that god awful i360 embarrassment that you believe will drive extra visitors into town and spend more of their money. Meanwhile, you are solely responsible for Brighton's new reputation as the dirtiest filthiest seaside town in Europe, which are driving visitors and residents out of town to spend their money elsewhere. Unbelievable...[/p][/quote]It's illegal to use agencies to supply labour to replace striking workers. I'll believe it when I see it but the council is supposed to make a profit on the i360 loan. But that's a capital investment scheme which can't be used to pay salaries anyway.[/p][/quote]That supposed profit relies on a stampede of people, on a daily basis, 365, all believing that a look over the grey ribbon or over the green downs is a big deal worth coming all the way from North London or Devon to go up the pole to appreciate. Pitiable hubris. Valerie Paynter
  • Score: 0

12:08pm Thu 20 Jun 13

yoyo41 says...

I was on a bus travelling along North Street the other day and several American tourists got on.
They were not talking about the Laines, the Pavilion, the excellent shopping facilities nor the pier. No, they were talking about the rubbish and filth that has engulfed our fabulous city.

These people will not visit Brighton again. Their friends and family will not want to visit. The Green Party is not only prepared to see out city as the local tip but is also destroying tourism which the city relies upon.

It is so upsetting to see what a mess Brighton has become. Mr Kitcat and co, please resign and allow Brighton residents to vote for a competent party to get this City great again.
I was on a bus travelling along North Street the other day and several American tourists got on. They were not talking about the Laines, the Pavilion, the excellent shopping facilities nor the pier. No, they were talking about the rubbish and filth that has engulfed our fabulous city. These people will not visit Brighton again. Their friends and family will not want to visit. The Green Party is not only prepared to see out city as the local tip but is also destroying tourism which the city relies upon. It is so upsetting to see what a mess Brighton has become. Mr Kitcat and co, please resign and allow Brighton residents to vote for a competent party to get this City great again. yoyo41
  • Score: 0

12:10pm Thu 20 Jun 13

fredflintstone1 says...

Eugenius wrote:
fredflintstone1 wrote:
Eugenius wrote:
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated.
A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot.
A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50.
The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.
Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.
She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what??

It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense.
Penny Thompson's lack of experience:
Chief Executive at General Social Care Council
Deputy CEO at NHS Haringey
Chief Executive at London Borough of Hackney
Executive Director,Social Services at Sheffield City Council
And she has a CBE for services to social work. And has been a union shop steward in her time. As chief execs go she has good ethics.
Exactly! Is someone whose background is based almost entirely in social services really the right person for this role?

She received an undisclosed severance package from her previous role at Hackney. You might like to delve a bit deeper. The Hackney Gazette is a good place to start. There's also a interesting blog too, entitled Hackney, Council of Chaos.
[quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredflintstone1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Eugenius[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Maxwell's Ghost[/bold] wrote: The living wage in Brighton and Hove in 2013 must be way above £7.45 when it was last calculated. A bus fare is almost a shocking fiver a day. The Greens increased parking to a shocking £25 a day, allotments to an unsustainable rate for a half plot. A pint of beer at the elitist festival was £4.50. The Greens have turned the city into a playground for the rich and now they are paying the price of pricing out the poorest workers.[/p][/quote]Not much we can do about bus fares and the price of beer. We have reduced the differential between the highest and lowest paid workers at the council from 12:1 to 10:1. Penny Thompson helped with that by agreeing a lower salary than her predecessor John Barradell, and we got rid of the overpaid "strategic directors" and the commissioning layer.[/p][/quote]She didn't have the requisite experience anyway, and was never going to be up to the job, as is now being so graphically displayed on the streets. So where's the saving? It will cost a fortune to sort this mess out. Typical idiotic Green dogma. We reduced the ratio from 12:1 to 10:1 !! So what?? It actually costs more to employ incompetents in senior management positions because of the damage they can cause....Fewer of them, and a higher degree of competency - yes, now that does make sense.[/p][/quote]Penny Thompson's lack of experience: Chief Executive at General Social Care Council Deputy CEO at NHS Haringey Chief Executive at London Borough of Hackney Executive Director,Social Services at Sheffield City Council And she has a CBE for services to social work. And has been a union shop steward in her time. As chief execs go she has good ethics.[/p][/quote]Exactly! Is someone whose background is based almost entirely in social services really the right person for this role? She received an undisclosed severance package from her previous role at Hackney. You might like to delve a bit deeper. The Hackney Gazette is a good place to start. There's also a interesting blog too, entitled Hackney, Council of Chaos. fredflintstone1
  • Score: 0

12:27pm Thu 20 Jun 13

fredaj says...

AGT999 wrote:
roystony wrote: Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves. Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.
You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power.
I disagree.

The reason the Greens got in is because the majority of Brighton and Hove residents cannot be bothered to vote at all.
[quote][p][bold]AGT999[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves. Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.[/p][/quote]You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power.[/p][/quote]I disagree. The reason the Greens got in is because the majority of Brighton and Hove residents cannot be bothered to vote at all. fredaj
  • Score: 0

12:36pm Thu 20 Jun 13

mabuhay says...

given the state of this place now, could you still get nicked for dropping a piece of litter?
given the state of this place now, could you still get nicked for dropping a piece of litter? mabuhay
  • Score: 0

12:42pm Thu 20 Jun 13

CleanBrighton says...

Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags!
They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions.
How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why?
Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement.
I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case.
Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council.
As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start... CleanBrighton
  • Score: 0

12:42pm Thu 20 Jun 13

geoff38 says...

roystony wrote:
geoff38 wrote: sack the lot of them. plenty of people would take the job which needs zero qualifications. they are a real disgrace.
Up date your cv then if you're up to the job.
Roy,

I Travel over 100 miles a day to and from work. Like many hard working individuals i am committed to my job despite not having a payrise for the past 5yrs and in real terms having a deduction. Can i go on strike working in the private sector no...what would happen if i did...id be sacked! We are a country struggling, on its knees...everyone is suffering cutbacks.
[quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]geoff38[/bold] wrote: sack the lot of them. plenty of people would take the job which needs zero qualifications. they are a real disgrace.[/p][/quote]Up date your cv then if you're up to the job.[/p][/quote]Roy, I Travel over 100 miles a day to and from work. Like many hard working individuals i am committed to my job despite not having a payrise for the past 5yrs and in real terms having a deduction. Can i go on strike working in the private sector no...what would happen if i did...id be sacked! We are a country struggling, on its knees...everyone is suffering cutbacks. geoff38
  • Score: 0

12:42pm Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

greens promoted use of communal bins in the first place... even without the strike they are a mess.. stuffed to the nines, collecting random household objects and a free restaurant for the seagulls... stink, ugly, noisy..

we should look at undergrouund shoots like in other countries and feed directly into central rubbish management facilities... no need for binmen. Greens love their communial bins tho...
greens promoted use of communal bins in the first place... even without the strike they are a mess.. stuffed to the nines, collecting random household objects and a free restaurant for the seagulls... stink, ugly, noisy.. we should look at undergrouund shoots like in other countries and feed directly into central rubbish management facilities... no need for binmen. Greens love their communial bins tho... tradebooker
  • Score: 0

12:45pm Thu 20 Jun 13

FatherTed11 says...

It just proves the striking bin men are a bunch of rude neanderthals who don't care about the city one bit. Ripping bags open and throwing rubbish over the street? Maybe they were looking for some lunch.
It just proves the striking bin men are a bunch of rude neanderthals who don't care about the city one bit. Ripping bags open and throwing rubbish over the street? Maybe they were looking for some lunch. FatherTed11
  • Score: 0

12:48pm Thu 20 Jun 13

tradebooker says...

CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
The reason GMB got pi*ssed with this one was the Greens - yet again - made no attempt to sit down with them prior to anouncing their policy and actually have a grown up discussion and negotiation with them... "look we know your guys are gonna lose out, but heres the deal... only a few... they will be compensated etc... etc.., how can we both make this work etc.. etc. ." kinda normal lets make a deal tactics.. using the skill of voice, communicaiton, savyness, bit of street-wise etc.. all traits the greens dont posses..

Instead they dropped this on their doorstep without warning and annnounced through the press.. "thanks a bunch"

they rubbed them up with the 20mph where the taxi drivers were not consulted, and now they dont it again..


thats what this strike is about..

Greens have no comms skills... bunch of geeks..
[quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]The reason GMB got pi*ssed with this one was the Greens - yet again - made no attempt to sit down with them prior to anouncing their policy and actually have a grown up discussion and negotiation with them... "look we know your guys are gonna lose out, but heres the deal... only a few... they will be compensated etc... etc.., how can we both make this work etc.. etc. ." kinda normal lets make a deal tactics.. using the skill of voice, communicaiton, savyness, bit of street-wise etc.. all traits the greens dont posses.. Instead they dropped this on their doorstep without warning and annnounced through the press.. "thanks a bunch" they rubbed them up with the 20mph where the taxi drivers were not consulted, and now they dont it again.. thats what this strike is about.. Greens have no comms skills... bunch of geeks.. tradebooker
  • Score: 0

12:56pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Stephen Vinall says...

Eastbourner wrote:
Stephen Vinall wrote:
We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this!

The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too!

Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around.

Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.
Whilst there is no doubt the CityClean workers work very hard, the reason they are on minimum wage is because you do not need any qualifications to do that job! I doubt very much they have any school/college/unive

rsity qualifications and without these you are likely to find unqualified jobs that pay the minimum wage, that unfortunately is not the fault of the local community, I would suggest they suspend any pay and see how many are back working on the streets tomorrow, there are clearly thousands of unemployed people who would jump at the chance of getting their jobs.
....why don't you... get up at 4am, work in all weather picking up other peoples' stinking waste... We may only have had to put up with it for a week, but CityClean staff deal with it every day - they are worth every penny.
[quote][p][bold]Eastbourner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Stephen Vinall[/bold] wrote: We need to remember that BHCC could have settled this matter more fairly - the legislation Penny Thompson refers to was about equality of pay, not driving down the pay of low paid workers to the lowest common denominator. Picking on CityClean staff, just because they have higher allowances, for doing what is a demanding, dirty and antisocial job (that most of us would avoid like the plague) isn’t the answer. It’s about reforming the system to give all workers a LIVING WAGE, not the minimum wage. If we value a civilised and fair society, then unfortunately we need to put our hands in our pockets and pay for this! The cumulative impact of these cuts will be devastating on CityClean workers– and makes a mockery of a Green administration that is supposedly committed to equality and social justice. I note that the Conservatives are now on the band waggon – just remember, this is as much of your making as anyone else… you chose to ignore the situation too! Whilst the city may look a mess, it will recover. CityClean staff wages won’t! They are proud people who work hard and should be rewarded for the work they do. Most people I speak to have solidarity with these workers and the unions supporting them – we should appreciate the public service they provide, after all, we certainly notice when they are not around. Penny – do the right thing and sort this mess out now; Jason – do the right thing and go now… you’ve both lost any credibility you had.[/p][/quote]Whilst there is no doubt the CityClean workers work very hard, the reason they are on minimum wage is because you do not need any qualifications to do that job! I doubt very much they have any school/college/unive rsity qualifications and without these you are likely to find unqualified jobs that pay the minimum wage, that unfortunately is not the fault of the local community, I would suggest they suspend any pay and see how many are back working on the streets tomorrow, there are clearly thousands of unemployed people who would jump at the chance of getting their jobs.[/p][/quote]....why don't you... get up at 4am, work in all weather picking up other peoples' stinking waste... We may only have had to put up with it for a week, but CityClean staff deal with it every day - they are worth every penny. Stephen Vinall
  • Score: 0

1:00pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Andy R says...

AGT999 wrote:
roystony wrote:
Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves.

Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.
You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power.
"Get the students out of the city"



Doh................
[quote][p][bold]AGT999[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]roystony[/bold] wrote: Some comments on here are so narrow minded. You were obviously not originally from Brighton and just care about yourselves. Get the greens out, then our town will be saved.[/p][/quote]You will never get the Greens out until you get the students out of the city. Most of them are only in the area for 3 to 4 years, pay no community charge and vote the Greens in.. Without them the Greens would never have come to power.[/p][/quote]"Get the students out of the city" Doh................ Andy R
  • Score: 0

1:05pm Thu 20 Jun 13

BornInBrighton1968 says...

Not a word from Kitcat, and 'Brussels' Lucas is still Tweeting her nonsense about her latest 'Page 3' crusade.

Glad to know that the Greens are really keeping on-top of the public health crisis that is afflicting Brighton...
Not a word from Kitcat, and 'Brussels' Lucas is still Tweeting her nonsense about her latest 'Page 3' crusade. Glad to know that the Greens are really keeping on-top of the public health crisis that is afflicting Brighton... BornInBrighton1968
  • Score: 0

1:06pm Thu 20 Jun 13

ThornyJim says...

wexler53 wrote:
Just because someone says they are a striking city worker, doesn't mean they actually are one.

That person's behaviour to that young woman was offensive and inappropriate. Sadly, there are idiots everywhere.

However, the vast majority of city cleaners are thoroughly decent people living their lives like the rest of us.

But they are fighting back in legal ways open to them, against a dim witted group of ideological nitwits the city would be well rid of, along with a poorly qualified chief exec.

Yes, the place is a mess. It's a good representation of what happens when a small group of extremists get in power.

Rather than rail against the bin men, let's get a council that will work for us and the city.
Your naivety is astounding! This has got nothing to do with 'dim witted ideological nitwits'. The council are looking to dispense with unfair and unequal staff bonuses that cost us council taxpayers more than they should...let me spell it out...they are trying to stop OUR money being wasted. We should condemn the GMB and its bullying tactics and expect the refuse workers to get back to their jobs!
[quote][p][bold]wexler53[/bold] wrote: Just because someone says they are a striking city worker, doesn't mean they actually are one. That person's behaviour to that young woman was offensive and inappropriate. Sadly, there are idiots everywhere. However, the vast majority of city cleaners are thoroughly decent people living their lives like the rest of us. But they are fighting back in legal ways open to them, against a dim witted group of ideological nitwits the city would be well rid of, along with a poorly qualified chief exec. Yes, the place is a mess. It's a good representation of what happens when a small group of extremists get in power. Rather than rail against the bin men, let's get a council that will work for us and the city.[/p][/quote]Your naivety is astounding! This has got nothing to do with 'dim witted ideological nitwits'. The council are looking to dispense with unfair and unequal staff bonuses that cost us council taxpayers more than they should...let me spell it out...they are trying to stop OUR money being wasted. We should condemn the GMB and its bullying tactics and expect the refuse workers to get back to their jobs! ThornyJim
  • Score: 0

1:27pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Rise Like Lions says...

CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags!
They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions.
How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why?
Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement.
I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case.
Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council.
As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
What a load of bull...

These are details from the workers' themselves...

""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job."

So there's your "detailed facts"!

Here's some more:
- Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time...
- Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred...
- Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc

Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.
[quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]What a load of bull... These are details from the workers' themselves... ""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job." So there's your "detailed facts"! Here's some more: - Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time... - Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred... - Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices. Rise Like Lions
  • Score: 0

1:35pm Thu 20 Jun 13

major_m says...

tradebooker wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
The reason GMB got pi*ssed with this one was the Greens - yet again - made no attempt to sit down with them prior to anouncing their policy and actually have a grown up discussion and negotiation with them... "look we know your guys are gonna lose out, but heres the deal... only a few... they will be compensated etc... etc.., how can we both make this work etc.. etc. ." kinda normal lets make a deal tactics.. using the skill of voice, communicaiton, savyness, bit of street-wise etc.. all traits the greens dont posses..

Instead they dropped this on their doorstep without warning and annnounced through the press.. "thanks a bunch"

they rubbed them up with the 20mph where the taxi drivers were not consulted, and now they dont it again..


thats what this strike is about..

Greens have no comms skills... bunch of geeks..
Wow. So, what I read is this:
the real reason we all have to put up with all this mess (literally) and loss of revenue is so the poor poor GMB finally have found a way to assert their "authority" and show the Council that they can make an impact because no one at the council listens to them.

(GMB:" Oh no, no one listens to us what can we do?" ping..light ball moment. "I know, we could make people feel sorry for the bin men on strike while we strengthen our profile. Brilliant, lets roll with it.")

I have no sympathy for the GMB. The fact that the GMB are generally ignored, could be because the GMB have poor leadership with poor competencies, themselves?

Imagine that. Poor leadership in the Council and poor leadership in the GMB = the city at stand still....Oh wait..
[quote][p][bold]tradebooker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]The reason GMB got pi*ssed with this one was the Greens - yet again - made no attempt to sit down with them prior to anouncing their policy and actually have a grown up discussion and negotiation with them... "look we know your guys are gonna lose out, but heres the deal... only a few... they will be compensated etc... etc.., how can we both make this work etc.. etc. ." kinda normal lets make a deal tactics.. using the skill of voice, communicaiton, savyness, bit of street-wise etc.. all traits the greens dont posses.. Instead they dropped this on their doorstep without warning and annnounced through the press.. "thanks a bunch" they rubbed them up with the 20mph where the taxi drivers were not consulted, and now they dont it again.. thats what this strike is about.. Greens have no comms skills... bunch of geeks..[/p][/quote]Wow. So, what I read is this: the real reason we all have to put up with all this mess (literally) and loss of revenue is so the poor poor GMB finally have found a way to assert their "authority" and show the Council that they can make an impact because no one at the council listens to them. (GMB:" Oh no, no one listens to us what can we do?" ping..light ball moment. "I know, we could make people feel sorry for the bin men on strike while we strengthen our profile. Brilliant, lets roll with it.") I have no sympathy for the GMB. The fact that the GMB are generally ignored, could be because the GMB have poor leadership with poor competencies, themselves? Imagine that. Poor leadership in the Council and poor leadership in the GMB = the city at stand still....Oh wait.. major_m
  • Score: 0

1:37pm Thu 20 Jun 13

geoff38 says...

Rise,

Ive had a pay freeze the past 5 years too but cant do anything about that..i work in the private sector, and dont you dare start talking about it affecting your Final Salary Pension because the majority of companies did away with those many moons ago because they are too expensive to run!

Disgrace!
Rise, Ive had a pay freeze the past 5 years too but cant do anything about that..i work in the private sector, and dont you dare start talking about it affecting your Final Salary Pension because the majority of companies did away with those many moons ago because they are too expensive to run! Disgrace! geoff38
  • Score: 0

1:43pm Thu 20 Jun 13

CleanBrighton says...

Rise Like Lions wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags!
They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions.
How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why?
Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement.
I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case.
Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council.
As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
What a load of bull...

These are details from the workers' themselves...

""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job."

So there's your "detailed facts"!

Here's some more:
- Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time...
- Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred...
- Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc

Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.
Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!!
Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi
cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact.
To read it: http://www.brighton-
hove.gov.uk/content/
council-and-democrac
y/news/pay-and-allow
ances-modernisation
[quote][p][bold]Rise Like Lions[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]What a load of bull... These are details from the workers' themselves... ""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job." So there's your "detailed facts"! Here's some more: - Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time... - Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred... - Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.[/p][/quote]Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!! Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact. To read it: http://www.brighton- hove.gov.uk/content/ council-and-democrac y/news/pay-and-allow ances-modernisation CleanBrighton
  • Score: 0

1:43pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Stephen Vinall says...

major_m wrote:
tradebooker wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
The reason GMB got pi*ssed with this one was the Greens - yet again - made no attempt to sit down with them prior to anouncing their policy and actually have a grown up discussion and negotiation with them... "look we know your guys are gonna lose out, but heres the deal... only a few... they will be compensated etc... etc.., how can we both make this work etc.. etc. ." kinda normal lets make a deal tactics.. using the skill of voice, communicaiton, savyness, bit of street-wise etc.. all traits the greens dont posses..

Instead they dropped this on their doorstep without warning and annnounced through the press.. "thanks a bunch"

they rubbed them up with the 20mph where the taxi drivers were not consulted, and now they dont it again..


thats what this strike is about..

Greens have no comms skills... bunch of geeks..
Wow. So, what I read is this:
the real reason we all have to put up with all this mess (literally) and loss of revenue is so the poor poor GMB finally have found a way to assert their "authority" and show the Council that they can make an impact because no one at the council listens to them.

(GMB:" Oh no, no one listens to us what can we do?" ping..light ball moment. "I know, we could make people feel sorry for the bin men on strike while we strengthen our profile. Brilliant, lets roll with it.")

I have no sympathy for the GMB. The fact that the GMB are generally ignored, could be because the GMB have poor leadership with poor competencies, themselves?

Imagine that. Poor leadership in the Council and poor leadership in the GMB = the city at stand still....Oh wait..
mmm... Do you know anything about GMB? Probably one of the best organised unions in the country - member centric.
[quote][p][bold]major_m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]tradebooker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]The reason GMB got pi*ssed with this one was the Greens - yet again - made no attempt to sit down with them prior to anouncing their policy and actually have a grown up discussion and negotiation with them... "look we know your guys are gonna lose out, but heres the deal... only a few... they will be compensated etc... etc.., how can we both make this work etc.. etc. ." kinda normal lets make a deal tactics.. using the skill of voice, communicaiton, savyness, bit of street-wise etc.. all traits the greens dont posses.. Instead they dropped this on their doorstep without warning and annnounced through the press.. "thanks a bunch" they rubbed them up with the 20mph where the taxi drivers were not consulted, and now they dont it again.. thats what this strike is about.. Greens have no comms skills... bunch of geeks..[/p][/quote]Wow. So, what I read is this: the real reason we all have to put up with all this mess (literally) and loss of revenue is so the poor poor GMB finally have found a way to assert their "authority" and show the Council that they can make an impact because no one at the council listens to them. (GMB:" Oh no, no one listens to us what can we do?" ping..light ball moment. "I know, we could make people feel sorry for the bin men on strike while we strengthen our profile. Brilliant, lets roll with it.") I have no sympathy for the GMB. The fact that the GMB are generally ignored, could be because the GMB have poor leadership with poor competencies, themselves? Imagine that. Poor leadership in the Council and poor leadership in the GMB = the city at stand still....Oh wait..[/p][/quote]mmm... Do you know anything about GMB? Probably one of the best organised unions in the country - member centric. Stephen Vinall
  • Score: 0

1:51pm Thu 20 Jun 13

teri65 says...

If most of you have jobs .hope your i not in the same situation. and people keep saying you have should be sacked .hope your bins are the last to be empted .if its no big deal why don't you give up 4000.
If most of you have jobs .hope your i not in the same situation. and people keep saying you have should be sacked .hope your bins are the last to be empted .if its no big deal why don't you give up 4000. teri65
  • Score: 0

1:57pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Rise Like Lions says...

CleanBrighton wrote:
Rise Like Lions wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags!
They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions.
How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why?
Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement.
I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case.
Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council.
As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
What a load of bull...

These are details from the workers' themselves...

""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job."

So there's your "detailed facts"!

Here's some more:
- Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time...
- Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred...
- Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc

Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.
Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!!
Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi

cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact.
To read it: http://www.brighton-

hove.gov.uk/content/

council-and-democrac

y/news/pay-and-allow

ances-modernisation
"Most of us..." Yes, except the rich who where the one's who caused the financial crisis in the first place... And if your gullible enough to accept this unjust state of cuts/affairs then you deserve your pay cut for not being intelligent enough to stand up for yourself. Sorry, but that is another fact.

Why do so many people blindly accept being held to ransom by the economics of the banks holding a metaphorical gun to all our heads???

Also, I am not a bin worker. I am a council carer - another section of workers also facing unjust cuts.
[quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Rise Like Lions[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]What a load of bull... These are details from the workers' themselves... ""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job." So there's your "detailed facts"! Here's some more: - Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time... - Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred... - Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.[/p][/quote]Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!! Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact. To read it: http://www.brighton- hove.gov.uk/content/ council-and-democrac y/news/pay-and-allow ances-modernisation[/p][/quote]"Most of us..." Yes, except the rich who where the one's who caused the financial crisis in the first place... And if your gullible enough to accept this unjust state of cuts/affairs then you deserve your pay cut for not being intelligent enough to stand up for yourself. Sorry, but that is another fact. Why do so many people blindly accept being held to ransom by the economics of the banks holding a metaphorical gun to all our heads??? Also, I am not a bin worker. I am a council carer - another section of workers also facing unjust cuts. Rise Like Lions
  • Score: 0

1:57pm Thu 20 Jun 13

CleanBrighton says...

teri65 wrote:
If most of you have jobs .hope your i not in the same situation. and people keep saying you have should be sacked .hope your bins are the last to be empted .if its no big deal why don't you give up 4000.
I have had a pay freeze for 4 years, I don't get over time and I work on Bank Holidays. But, I'm not complaining. I have a choice - quit or suck it up until the economy turns around.
If you are so supportive of the strike, why don't you go onto your street and throw your rubbish around!
[quote][p][bold]teri65[/bold] wrote: If most of you have jobs .hope your i not in the same situation. and people keep saying you have should be sacked .hope your bins are the last to be empted .if its no big deal why don't you give up 4000.[/p][/quote]I have had a pay freeze for 4 years, I don't get over time and I work on Bank Holidays. But, I'm not complaining. I have a choice - quit or suck it up until the economy turns around. If you are so supportive of the strike, why don't you go onto your street and throw your rubbish around! CleanBrighton
  • Score: 0

2:05pm Thu 20 Jun 13

CleanBrighton says...

Rise Like Lions wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Rise Like Lions wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags!
They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions.
How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why?
Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement.
I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case.
Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council.
As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
What a load of bull...

These are details from the workers' themselves...

""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job."

So there's your "detailed facts"!

Here's some more:
- Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time...
- Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred...
- Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc

Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.
Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!!
Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi


cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact.
To read it: http://www.brighton-


hove.gov.uk/content/


council-and-democrac


y/news/pay-and-allow


ances-modernisation
"Most of us..." Yes, except the rich who where the one's who caused the financial crisis in the first place... And if your gullible enough to accept this unjust state of cuts/affairs then you deserve your pay cut for not being intelligent enough to stand up for yourself. Sorry, but that is another fact.

Why do so many people blindly accept being held to ransom by the economics of the banks holding a metaphorical gun to all our heads???

Also, I am not a bin worker. I am a council carer - another section of workers also facing unjust cuts.
Thanks for the advice - I have two masters degrees as it happens, including one in International Economic Development. I also respect the work council carers and empathise with realty that all workers face at this time. It has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with economic reality. Yes, the Banks were massively irresponsible and so was the government. Put simply, they spent more than we had without putting anything aside. And that is fact. There is not enough money to keep spending in the way the Labour government did. Something has to give. Should Banks be punished - probably. Should individuals adjust their expectations - definitely. The private sector has made changes and it is time the public sector did too.
[quote][p][bold]Rise Like Lions[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Rise Like Lions[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]What a load of bull... These are details from the workers' themselves... ""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job." So there's your "detailed facts"! Here's some more: - Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time... - Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred... - Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.[/p][/quote]Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!! Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact. To read it: http://www.brighton- hove.gov.uk/content/ council-and-democrac y/news/pay-and-allow ances-modernisation[/p][/quote]"Most of us..." Yes, except the rich who where the one's who caused the financial crisis in the first place... And if your gullible enough to accept this unjust state of cuts/affairs then you deserve your pay cut for not being intelligent enough to stand up for yourself. Sorry, but that is another fact. Why do so many people blindly accept being held to ransom by the economics of the banks holding a metaphorical gun to all our heads??? Also, I am not a bin worker. I am a council carer - another section of workers also facing unjust cuts.[/p][/quote]Thanks for the advice - I have two masters degrees as it happens, including one in International Economic Development. I also respect the work council carers and empathise with realty that all workers face at this time. It has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with economic reality. Yes, the Banks were massively irresponsible and so was the government. Put simply, they spent more than we had without putting anything aside. And that is fact. There is not enough money to keep spending in the way the Labour government did. Something has to give. Should Banks be punished - probably. Should individuals adjust their expectations - definitely. The private sector has made changes and it is time the public sector did too. CleanBrighton
  • Score: 0

2:16pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Rise Like Lions says...

CleanBrighton wrote:
Rise Like Lions wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Rise Like Lions wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags!
They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions.
How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why?
Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement.
I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case.
Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council.
As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...
What a load of bull...

These are details from the workers' themselves...

""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job."

So there's your "detailed facts"!

Here's some more:
- Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time...
- Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred...
- Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc

Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.
Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!!
Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi



cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact.
To read it: http://www.brighton-



hove.gov.uk/content/



council-and-democrac



y/news/pay-and-allow



ances-modernisation
"Most of us..." Yes, except the rich who where the one's who caused the financial crisis in the first place... And if your gullible enough to accept this unjust state of cuts/affairs then you deserve your pay cut for not being intelligent enough to stand up for yourself. Sorry, but that is another fact.

Why do so many people blindly accept being held to ransom by the economics of the banks holding a metaphorical gun to all our heads???

Also, I am not a bin worker. I am a council carer - another section of workers also facing unjust cuts.
Thanks for the advice - I have two masters degrees as it happens, including one in International Economic Development. I also respect the work council carers and empathise with realty that all workers face at this time. It has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with economic reality. Yes, the Banks were massively irresponsible and so was the government. Put simply, they spent more than we had without putting anything aside. And that is fact. There is not enough money to keep spending in the way the Labour government did. Something has to give. Should Banks be punished - probably. Should individuals adjust their expectations - definitely. The private sector has made changes and it is time the public sector did too.
So, "something has to give"? Why not collect taxes correctly from big companies and the rich rather than accepting pay cuts for those lower paid who actually do the work on the frontline. Your "economic reality" will expect more strikes then, rather than fairly resolving this crisis.
[quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Rise Like Lions[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Rise Like Lions[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Iam fed up with the GMB leaders bullying tactics - not to mention members ripping up rubbish bags! They are scaremongering their members, most of whom do not know what the Council are offering, to protect their own power and positions. How about the Council and GMB explain honestly who and how workers are to be affected - I guarantee most will vote to end the strike. Why? Because, it is not true that their salaries are being cut and the vast majority will not be out of pocket if they agree to the settlement. I am no fan of the Council, but instead of wasting money on bike lanes, they are actually being responsible with our money in this case. Thos is not an attack on hard working binmen - the goal is fairness for workers going forward and fiscal responsibility for the Council. As for the Argus - rubbish job stating the facts of this story! How about doing a detailed fact only story... Current wages and allowances plus other relevant terms and conditions of Cityclean staff; the detail of what the Council proposals are and their justifications; the objections of the Union; the factual response to each side; how workers will actually be affected (how many and how much). I am tired of the propaganda of £4000 loss of salary being repeated - its not £4000 and it is not salary for a start...[/p][/quote]What a load of bull... These are details from the workers' themselves... ""The pay issue. 260 staff here are affected. All will lose money. No, not everyone will lose £4k. There are a lot of different pay structures here, depending on what job you do and what shift you work. E.g. a HGV driver on a truck will lose £4k off a £19k (the highest in our depot) salary. There are things like “rolling rota” and PM shifts, for example some of our street cleaners get paid extra for things like evening working, or Christmas Day etc. Street cleaners who don’t work weekends, and are on a Mon-Fri day shift stand to lose the least, at £1k (although they get paid much less than a HGV driver in the first place). So all the amounts vary depending on position and shift etc. The average loss is £2k. It also effects our holiday entitlement as people will lose their day off for Bank Holidays, and will also affect our final salary pension scheme. Any loss, for those of us already low paid in such an expensive city to live as Brighton, will be massive. Rent, mortgage etc., is based on the salary you sign up to when you take the job." So there's your "detailed facts"! Here's some more: - Pay freeze for the last 5 years! That's a pay cut once you add in inflation during that time... - Compensation offered doesn't cover all the loss expected to be incurred... - Council cuts are being imposed by a Tory government on local authorities and being carried out by parties of all colours while the rich continue to see massive bonuses, tax avoidance by big companies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc Get behind the council workers standing up for themselves against all these injustices.[/p][/quote]Oh right - it's the Tories fault!!!!! Most of us have had to take a hit in this economy (pay freezes or reduced hours), including thousands of low paid workers, and many have lost their jobs. That is just a reality and everyone compromising/sacrifi cing is the only solution to fix it. I have huge respect for the job you do, but in the end you are replaceable and for every Cityclean worker who does't want to do their job there a many who would jump at the chance. The proposal from the Council (who I did not vote for) sounds pretty good to me and a lot better than if you worked in the private - and that is a fact. To read it: http://www.brighton- hove.gov.uk/content/ council-and-democrac y/news/pay-and-allow ances-modernisation[/p][/quote]"Most of us..." Yes, except the rich who where the one's who caused the financial crisis in the first place... And if your gullible enough to accept this unjust state of cuts/affairs then you deserve your pay cut for not being intelligent enough to stand up for yourself. Sorry, but that is another fact. Why do so many people blindly accept being held to ransom by the economics of the banks holding a metaphorical gun to all our heads??? Also, I am not a bin worker. I am a council carer - another section of workers also facing unjust cuts.[/p][/quote]Thanks for the advice - I have two masters degrees as it happens, including one in International Economic Development. I also respect the work council carers and empathise with realty that all workers face at this time. It has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with economic reality. Yes, the Banks were massively irresponsible and so was the government. Put simply, they spent more than we had without putting anything aside. And that is fact. There is not enough money to keep spending in the way the Labour government did. Something has to give. Should Banks be punished - probably. Should individuals adjust their expectations - definitely. The private sector has made changes and it is time the public sector did too.[/p][/quote]So, "something has to give"? Why not collect taxes correctly from big companies and the rich rather than accepting pay cuts for those lower paid who actually do the work on the frontline. Your "economic reality" will expect more strikes then, rather than fairly resolving this crisis. Rise Like Lions
  • Score: 0

2:37pm Thu 20 Jun 13

CleanBrighton says...

Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages?
The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax.
People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34%
We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58%
The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax.
In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax.
Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes.
If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.
Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages? The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax. People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34% We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58% The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax. In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax. Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes. If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol. CleanBrighton
  • Score: 0

2:53pm Thu 20 Jun 13

bigfinker says...

CleanBrighton wrote:
Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages?
The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax.
People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34%
We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58%
The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax.
In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax.
Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes.
If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.
Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income.

Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills.

Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years.

This is something you fail to factor into your equation.

As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house.
[quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages? The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax. People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34% We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58% The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax. In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax. Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes. If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.[/p][/quote]Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income. Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills. Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years. This is something you fail to factor into your equation. As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house. bigfinker
  • Score: 0

4:40pm Thu 20 Jun 13

CleanBrighton says...

bigfinker wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages?
The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax.
People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34%
We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58%
The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax.
In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax.
Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes.
If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.
Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income.

Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills.

Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years.

This is something you fail to factor into your equation.

As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house.
By your own statistics that only emphasises the proportion of tax paid by the wealthy as opposed to the low income... 1% earn 10% of income and pay 27.7% of the tax! In other words they make a significant contribution and yet you still begrudge them their success.
Sure the difference between the wealthiest and poorest has grown, that is because the wealthiest are wealthier, not because the poorest are poorer- the opposite is true. We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you. Wealth is a good thing; it builds our schools, funds our hospitals and provides us jobs. The economy is driven by wealth creators and important jobs in the Public Sector exist and are funded because of wealth creation.
As for who has disposable income, I imagine lots of people would argue with you as they find the relative cost of housing, food and energy difficult to meet too.
You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades. Even though we now share the world market with new economies like India, Brazil and China, the fact is that growth has been relatively stable over the last 40 years and longer has the extreme booms and busts of the 1970s.
I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract i flawed. It just means those private companies didn't make a profit on that contract because it wasn't a profitable proposition or they were not up to it. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that the principles of competition and fiscal oversight in private business results in greater efficiency. That is not to say everything should be privatised, but the fact is when you spend other peoples money you tend to be less efficient than when you spend your own.
[quote][p][bold]bigfinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages? The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax. People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34% We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58% The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax. In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax. Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes. If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.[/p][/quote]Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income. Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills. Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years. This is something you fail to factor into your equation. As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house.[/p][/quote]By your own statistics that only emphasises the proportion of tax paid by the wealthy as opposed to the low income... 1% earn 10% of income and pay 27.7% of the tax! In other words they make a significant contribution and yet you still begrudge them their success. Sure the difference between the wealthiest and poorest has grown, that is because the wealthiest are wealthier, not because the poorest are poorer- the opposite is true. We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you. Wealth is a good thing; it builds our schools, funds our hospitals and provides us jobs. The economy is driven by wealth creators and important jobs in the Public Sector exist and are funded because of wealth creation. As for who has disposable income, I imagine lots of people would argue with you as they find the relative cost of housing, food and energy difficult to meet too. You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades. Even though we now share the world market with new economies like India, Brazil and China, the fact is that growth has been relatively stable over the last 40 years and longer has the extreme booms and busts of the 1970s. I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract i flawed. It just means those private companies didn't make a profit on that contract because it wasn't a profitable proposition or they were not up to it. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that the principles of competition and fiscal oversight in private business results in greater efficiency. That is not to say everything should be privatised, but the fact is when you spend other peoples money you tend to be less efficient than when you spend your own. CleanBrighton
  • Score: 0

5:37pm Thu 20 Jun 13

antichrist says...

From next week if this situation didn`t change over the weekend i will stop sending my kids to school as i have big concerns about health and safety of my children who are useing this roads in town center on the way to school.
From next week if this situation didn`t change over the weekend i will stop sending my kids to school as i have big concerns about health and safety of my children who are useing this roads in town center on the way to school. antichrist
  • Score: 0

6:24pm Thu 20 Jun 13

Kate234 says...

It is a disgrace that anyone can criticise people for clearing up the mess. These selfish strikers if they don't agree with the conditions should go and find a better job and just not expect the whole city to live in a disgusting and dangerous rat infested mess. The government should step in and employ private contractors to sort this out. I am fed up with walking behind tourists that are complaining about the state the city is in as they tread over human waste and ripped rubbish everywhere. The labour party and greens should be ashamed of themselves creating this situation. Other people in Brighton pay for this service to carry out and have mortgages too that depend on the city being a reasonable place to visit.
It is a disgrace that anyone can criticise people for clearing up the mess. These selfish strikers if they don't agree with the conditions should go and find a better job and just not expect the whole city to live in a disgusting and dangerous rat infested mess. The government should step in and employ private contractors to sort this out. I am fed up with walking behind tourists that are complaining about the state the city is in as they tread over human waste and ripped rubbish everywhere. The labour party and greens should be ashamed of themselves creating this situation. Other people in Brighton pay for this service to carry out and have mortgages too that depend on the city being a reasonable place to visit. Kate234
  • Score: 0

9:11pm Thu 20 Jun 13

bigfinker says...

CleanBrighton wrote:
bigfinker wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages?
The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax.
People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34%
We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58%
The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax.
In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax.
Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes.
If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.
Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income.

Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills.

Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years.

This is something you fail to factor into your equation.

As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house.
By your own statistics that only emphasises the proportion of tax paid by the wealthy as opposed to the low income... 1% earn 10% of income and pay 27.7% of the tax! In other words they make a significant contribution and yet you still begrudge them their success.
Sure the difference between the wealthiest and poorest has grown, that is because the wealthiest are wealthier, not because the poorest are poorer- the opposite is true. We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you. Wealth is a good thing; it builds our schools, funds our hospitals and provides us jobs. The economy is driven by wealth creators and important jobs in the Public Sector exist and are funded because of wealth creation.
As for who has disposable income, I imagine lots of people would argue with you as they find the relative cost of housing, food and energy difficult to meet too.
You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades. Even though we now share the world market with new economies like India, Brazil and China, the fact is that growth has been relatively stable over the last 40 years and longer has the extreme booms and busts of the 1970s.
I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract i flawed. It just means those private companies didn't make a profit on that contract because it wasn't a profitable proposition or they were not up to it. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that the principles of competition and fiscal oversight in private business results in greater efficiency. That is not to say everything should be privatised, but the fact is when you spend other peoples money you tend to be less efficient than when you spend your own.
1) You say "We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you".

Try telling that to the half a million forced to use food banks nowadays.

Tell that to the millions who spend all their wages on extortionate rents in the private sector, due to lack of social housing and unable to save to buy.

2) You say "You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades"

Post-war economic growth = 3%
growth from the 80s average = 2.2%

There are still massive boom and busts.

3) You say "I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract flawed"

I was simply pointing out your premise that the public sector is *always* inefficient can be shown to be not true. There are inefficiencies in both the private and public sector.

You point to competition but markets tend to become uncompetitive without proper public oversight and regulation, just look at the private energy sector.

And in much of the public sector, competition doesn't work because they are necessities and can't simply go bust without causing serious problems.
[quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bigfinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages? The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax. People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34% We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58% The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax. In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax. Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes. If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.[/p][/quote]Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income. Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills. Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years. This is something you fail to factor into your equation. As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house.[/p][/quote]By your own statistics that only emphasises the proportion of tax paid by the wealthy as opposed to the low income... 1% earn 10% of income and pay 27.7% of the tax! In other words they make a significant contribution and yet you still begrudge them their success. Sure the difference between the wealthiest and poorest has grown, that is because the wealthiest are wealthier, not because the poorest are poorer- the opposite is true. We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you. Wealth is a good thing; it builds our schools, funds our hospitals and provides us jobs. The economy is driven by wealth creators and important jobs in the Public Sector exist and are funded because of wealth creation. As for who has disposable income, I imagine lots of people would argue with you as they find the relative cost of housing, food and energy difficult to meet too. You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades. Even though we now share the world market with new economies like India, Brazil and China, the fact is that growth has been relatively stable over the last 40 years and longer has the extreme booms and busts of the 1970s. I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract i flawed. It just means those private companies didn't make a profit on that contract because it wasn't a profitable proposition or they were not up to it. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that the principles of competition and fiscal oversight in private business results in greater efficiency. That is not to say everything should be privatised, but the fact is when you spend other peoples money you tend to be less efficient than when you spend your own.[/p][/quote]1) You say "We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you". Try telling that to the half a million forced to use food banks nowadays. Tell that to the millions who spend all their wages on extortionate rents in the private sector, due to lack of social housing and unable to save to buy. 2) You say "You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades" Post-war economic growth = 3% growth from the 80s average = 2.2% There are still massive boom and busts. 3) You say "I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract [is] flawed" I was simply pointing out your premise that the public sector is *always* inefficient can be shown to be not true. There are inefficiencies in both the private and public sector. You point to competition but markets tend to become uncompetitive without proper public oversight and regulation, just look at the private energy sector. And in much of the public sector, competition doesn't work because they are necessities and can't simply go bust without causing serious problems. bigfinker
  • Score: 0

1:36am Fri 21 Jun 13

CleanBrighton says...

bigfinker wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
bigfinker wrote:
CleanBrighton wrote:
Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages?
The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax.
People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34%
We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58%
The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax.
In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax.
Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes.
If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.
Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income.

Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills.

Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years.

This is something you fail to factor into your equation.

As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house.
By your own statistics that only emphasises the proportion of tax paid by the wealthy as opposed to the low income... 1% earn 10% of income and pay 27.7% of the tax! In other words they make a significant contribution and yet you still begrudge them their success.
Sure the difference between the wealthiest and poorest has grown, that is because the wealthiest are wealthier, not because the poorest are poorer- the opposite is true. We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you. Wealth is a good thing; it builds our schools, funds our hospitals and provides us jobs. The economy is driven by wealth creators and important jobs in the Public Sector exist and are funded because of wealth creation.
As for who has disposable income, I imagine lots of people would argue with you as they find the relative cost of housing, food and energy difficult to meet too.
You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades. Even though we now share the world market with new economies like India, Brazil and China, the fact is that growth has been relatively stable over the last 40 years and longer has the extreme booms and busts of the 1970s.
I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract i flawed. It just means those private companies didn't make a profit on that contract because it wasn't a profitable proposition or they were not up to it. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that the principles of competition and fiscal oversight in private business results in greater efficiency. That is not to say everything should be privatised, but the fact is when you spend other peoples money you tend to be less efficient than when you spend your own.
1) You say "We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you".

Try telling that to the half a million forced to use food banks nowadays.

Tell that to the millions who spend all their wages on extortionate rents in the private sector, due to lack of social housing and unable to save to buy.

2) You say "You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades"

Post-war economic growth = 3%
growth from the 80s average = 2.2%

There are still massive boom and busts.

3) You say "I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract flawed"

I was simply pointing out your premise that the public sector is *always* inefficient can be shown to be not true. There are inefficiencies in both the private and public sector.

You point to competition but markets tend to become uncompetitive without proper public oversight and regulation, just look at the private energy sector.

And in much of the public sector, competition doesn't work because they are necessities and can't simply go bust without causing serious problems.
1/ Number of indoor toilets/central heating/double glazing/private telephones/tvs... 40 years ago.

2/You referenced the last 40 years, not the post war period - and during the last 40 years growth has been relatively stable. The earlier post war period saw rapid growth - as do all reconstruction economies - but I could do without another Blitz!
The fact is that the boom and busts of the last decade are not as extreme as the 70s - check your stats.

3/If that is what you now assert you pointed out, you did not previously. I never stated that regulation and public oversight were not necessary. However, I maintain, with evidence that competition overwhelming leads to greater efficiency. The converse kills it - see the Soviet Union or pre-Deng China. This is not a question of perfection or one or the other, but rather one of honest analysis. The fact is that even in critical services in the public sector competition and/or commercial principles can play an important role - sometimes even in staffing. As a tax payer and citizen, I want our money spent wisely and responsibly and that does not mean pandering to every demand of the Unions because when we do we all lose out.
[quote][p][bold]bigfinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]bigfinker[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]CleanBrighton[/bold] wrote: Enough with the class warfare rhetoric. Rich people work too - just as hard or not as those on low incomes. We need their success - who do you think pays your wages? The top 1% of earners (paid over £150K) pay 27.7% of tax. People earning between £35K and £150K pay 34% We have the highest top marginal rate of tax in the developed world at 58% The bottom 10% of income earners only pay around 0.6% of tax. In other words, less than half the working population pay 90% of tax. Should the loopholes for big businesses be closed - yes. Should that money just be poured into an inefficient public sector - no. Should we use that money to pay down the country's debt - yes. If we want to keep services like your in the Public Sector, we need to be honest and stop the vitriol.[/p][/quote]Yes but the top 1% now earn 10% of all income. While the poorest 50% only earn 18% of all income. Most of the income of the rich is disposable, while the poorest are struggling to pay basics, like housing, food and energy bills. Income inequality is growing not shrinking. It has been for almost 40 years. And notably economic growth has slowed over those 40 years. This is something you fail to factor into your equation. As for public services, your argument that public services are inefficient has been shown to be untrue. Take CityClean itself, two private firms had to give up the contract because they couldn't make any money, that is why it was returned to council in-house.[/p][/quote]By your own statistics that only emphasises the proportion of tax paid by the wealthy as opposed to the low income... 1% earn 10% of income and pay 27.7% of the tax! In other words they make a significant contribution and yet you still begrudge them their success. Sure the difference between the wealthiest and poorest has grown, that is because the wealthiest are wealthier, not because the poorest are poorer- the opposite is true. We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you. Wealth is a good thing; it builds our schools, funds our hospitals and provides us jobs. The economy is driven by wealth creators and important jobs in the Public Sector exist and are funded because of wealth creation. As for who has disposable income, I imagine lots of people would argue with you as they find the relative cost of housing, food and energy difficult to meet too. You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades. Even though we now share the world market with new economies like India, Brazil and China, the fact is that growth has been relatively stable over the last 40 years and longer has the extreme booms and busts of the 1970s. I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract i flawed. It just means those private companies didn't make a profit on that contract because it wasn't a profitable proposition or they were not up to it. There is plenty of data to demonstrate that the principles of competition and fiscal oversight in private business results in greater efficiency. That is not to say everything should be privatised, but the fact is when you spend other peoples money you tend to be less efficient than when you spend your own.[/p][/quote]1) You say "We are all better off than 40 years ago - whatever nostalgia tells you". Try telling that to the half a million forced to use food banks nowadays. Tell that to the millions who spend all their wages on extortionate rents in the private sector, due to lack of social housing and unable to save to buy. 2) You say "You are mistaken about the rate of growth over the last four decades" Post-war economic growth = 3% growth from the 80s average = 2.2% There are still massive boom and busts. 3) You say "I am afraid your assertion that public services are not inefficient because private companies did not make money doing on a particular contract [is] flawed" I was simply pointing out your premise that the public sector is *always* inefficient can be shown to be not true. There are inefficiencies in both the private and public sector. You point to competition but markets tend to become uncompetitive without proper public oversight and regulation, just look at the private energy sector. And in much of the public sector, competition doesn't work because they are necessities and can't simply go bust without causing serious problems.[/p][/quote]1/ Number of indoor toilets/central heating/double glazing/private telephones/tvs... 40 years ago. 2/You referenced the last 40 years, not the post war period - and during the last 40 years growth has been relatively stable. The earlier post war period saw rapid growth - as do all reconstruction economies - but I could do without another Blitz! The fact is that the boom and busts of the last decade are not as extreme as the 70s - check your stats. 3/If that is what you now assert you pointed out, you did not previously. I never stated that regulation and public oversight were not necessary. However, I maintain, with evidence that competition overwhelming leads to greater efficiency. The converse kills it - see the Soviet Union or pre-Deng China. This is not a question of perfection or one or the other, but rather one of honest analysis. The fact is that even in critical services in the public sector competition and/or commercial principles can play an important role - sometimes even in staffing. As a tax payer and citizen, I want our money spent wisely and responsibly and that does not mean pandering to every demand of the Unions because when we do we all lose out. CleanBrighton
  • Score: 0

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