The ArgusNo prosecutions for speeding in Brighton and Hove's new 20mph zones (From The Argus)

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No prosecutions for speeding in Brighton and Hove's new 20mph zones

The Argus: No prosecutions for speeding in Brighton and Hove's new 20mph zones No prosecutions for speeding in Brighton and Hove's new 20mph zones

No drivers have been prosecuted for speeding in Brighton and Hove’s 20mph zones, The Argus can reveal.

According to a Freedom of Information (FoI) request, no charges have been brought against motorists in the city since the zones were introduced in April last year.

A Sussex Police FoI officer said this means drivers have been stopped or given “words of advice or caution”.

The officer added: “Brighton and Hove City Council are monitoring the compliance as 20mph limits are designed to be self enforcing. Average speeds across the area involved are already below 24mph and we expect drivers to play their part in improving safety by complying with the limits.

“As far as our policy, while Sussex Police are able to enforce any legally established speed limit, we do not routinely expect to enforce 20mph limits because as part of the consultation in the implementation of the 20mph limit, the new area should comply with the Department for Transport guidelines for self enforcing schemes – however where drivers are exceeding the speed limit through wilful offending, officers can enforce the limit and prosecute offen-ders.”

Rod King, from the campaign group 20’s Plenty For Us, has urged police to enforce laws and encourage compliance.

He said: “Police should not pick and choose which laws they enforce.”

Superintendent Jane Derrick, the head of the road policing unit at Sussex Police, said that where drivers are “regularly and wilfully” breaking the law, action will be taken to deal with offenders.

A council spokesperson said: “Brighton and Hove continues to have one of the worst road safety records in the country based on collisions per mile.

“We’re introducing more 20mph speed limits to improve safety for all road users, including drivers, and to make it safer and more appealing to walk and cycle.

“It’s used by councils across the country to help prevent death and injury.

“In a survey we conducted last year of 58,000 homes, the majority of people said they wanted 20mph on the street where they lived. People with children, older people and people with disabilities showed high levels of support for it.

“The lower speed limit is designed to be self-enforcing according to Department for Transport guidelines.

“We believe education and awareness are the key factors in achieving safer streets and reducing accident rates.”

Comments (29)

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10:26am Wed 15 Jan 14

clubrob6 says...

The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai
nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have.
The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have. clubrob6
  • Score: 35

10:30am Wed 15 Jan 14

rogerthefish says...

Greens the new looney party!
Greens the new looney party! rogerthefish
  • Score: 36

10:34am Wed 15 Jan 14

gheese77 says...

So the 20 mph limits are having an affect then, without the need for prosecutions
.
"Average speeds across the area involved are already below 24mph "

When the speed limit is 30 many drivers think its ok to do 35 so it comes as no surprise that we see similar behaviour for 20 mph limit.
I would hope to see prosecutions for drivers who are speeding should they injure someone
So the 20 mph limits are having an affect then, without the need for prosecutions . "Average speeds across the area involved are already below 24mph " When the speed limit is 30 many drivers think its ok to do 35 so it comes as no surprise that we see similar behaviour for 20 mph limit. I would hope to see prosecutions for drivers who are speeding should they injure someone gheese77
  • Score: -33

10:36am Wed 15 Jan 14

John60 says...

Fix and maintain the seafront and stop wasting our money on stupid ideas that don't work.
Fix and maintain the seafront and stop wasting our money on stupid ideas that don't work. John60
  • Score: 54

10:52am Wed 15 Jan 14

RottingdeanRant says...

gheese77 wrote:
So the 20 mph limits are having an affect then, without the need for prosecutions
.
"Average speeds across the area involved are already below 24mph "

When the speed limit is 30 many drivers think its ok to do 35 so it comes as no surprise that we see similar behaviour for 20 mph limit.
I would hope to see prosecutions for drivers who are speeding should they injure someone
I think you may find that the average speed was below 30 before the new limits were put in place!
[quote][p][bold]gheese77[/bold] wrote: So the 20 mph limits are having an affect then, without the need for prosecutions . "Average speeds across the area involved are already below 24mph " When the speed limit is 30 many drivers think its ok to do 35 so it comes as no surprise that we see similar behaviour for 20 mph limit. I would hope to see prosecutions for drivers who are speeding should they injure someone[/p][/quote]I think you may find that the average speed was below 30 before the new limits were put in place! RottingdeanRant
  • Score: 57

11:50am Wed 15 Jan 14

Crystal Ball says...

The Goofy Greens are sadly not self-enforcing either as they have been running amok and decimating the lives of residents for far too long.
The Goofy Greens are sadly not self-enforcing either as they have been running amok and decimating the lives of residents for far too long. Crystal Ball
  • Score: 29

12:55pm Wed 15 Jan 14

charlie smirke says...

I seem to remember the Police saying that their speed monitoring equipment was not designed to function at speeds as low as 20mph. If this is the case, they would to prosecute at 30mph plus.
I seem to remember the Police saying that their speed monitoring equipment was not designed to function at speeds as low as 20mph. If this is the case, they would to prosecute at 30mph plus. charlie smirke
  • Score: 12

12:57pm Wed 15 Jan 14

charlie smirke says...

charlie smirke wrote:
I seem to remember the Police saying that their speed monitoring equipment was not designed to function at speeds as low as 20mph. If this is the case, they would to prosecute at 30mph plus.
I meant they would only be ABLE to prosecute at over 30mph.
[quote][p][bold]charlie smirke[/bold] wrote: I seem to remember the Police saying that their speed monitoring equipment was not designed to function at speeds as low as 20mph. If this is the case, they would to prosecute at 30mph plus.[/p][/quote]I meant they would only be ABLE to prosecute at over 30mph. charlie smirke
  • Score: 13

1:00pm Wed 15 Jan 14

graham_Seagull says...

If you're driving a vehicle and in a crash at 30mph, there will be significantly greater/ different damage if compared to a crash at 20mph (including skid marks on the road surface). The police will be able to use this information to presecute for driving without due care and attention with the assumption the car driver is in the wrong.

So to suggest it's ok to continue to drive at 30mph or more in a 20mph zone is putting ones licence and liberty on the line.
If you're driving a vehicle and in a crash at 30mph, there will be significantly greater/ different damage if compared to a crash at 20mph (including skid marks on the road surface). The police will be able to use this information to presecute for driving without due care and attention with the assumption the car driver is in the wrong. So to suggest it's ok to continue to drive at 30mph or more in a 20mph zone is putting ones licence and liberty on the line. graham_Seagull
  • Score: -11

1:02pm Wed 15 Jan 14

graham_Seagull says...

clubrob6 wrote:
The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have.
The Greens put the measures in, supported by the other parties.
The plan to go to 20mph has been in the council strategy for a few years beforehand.
So to blame the Green party for a decision that has been long in the plannig within previous adminstrations is at best, thick.
[quote][p][bold]clubrob6[/bold] wrote: The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have.[/p][/quote]The Greens put the measures in, supported by the other parties. The plan to go to 20mph has been in the council strategy for a few years beforehand. So to blame the Green party for a decision that has been long in the plannig within previous adminstrations is at best, thick. graham_Seagull
  • Score: -34

1:05pm Wed 15 Jan 14

billy goat-gruff says...

The police should station someone just round the corner from the photo above, at the bottom of Viaduct Road, and radar the cars roaring across Preston Circus from New England Road as soon as the lights change - it's like a drag racing track!
The police should station someone just round the corner from the photo above, at the bottom of Viaduct Road, and radar the cars roaring across Preston Circus from New England Road as soon as the lights change - it's like a drag racing track! billy goat-gruff
  • Score: -23

1:18pm Wed 15 Jan 14

the red head says...

As someone who takes to the road several times a day, I have only twice come up behind someone doing 20mph. It's unenforced, unenforceable and in my opinion, the complacency that cyclists and pedestrians feel has made it more treacherous when approaching junctions etc. the road furniture has made it treacherous for both cyclists and pedestrians... Forcing cars to swing out and creep to ensure the way is clear before moving forward. It has also increased the traffic on previously quiet residential roads as min roundabouts open up rat runs to avoid queues. Speed cameras on problematic roads would have resolved speeding issues and recouped their cost within weeks.
Cyclists need to be brought to answer on their lack of lights and driving on pavements.
The whole thing is, frankly, amateur.
As someone who takes to the road several times a day, I have only twice come up behind someone doing 20mph. It's unenforced, unenforceable and in my opinion, the complacency that cyclists and pedestrians feel has made it more treacherous when approaching junctions etc. the road furniture has made it treacherous for both cyclists and pedestrians... Forcing cars to swing out and creep to ensure the way is clear before moving forward. It has also increased the traffic on previously quiet residential roads as min roundabouts open up rat runs to avoid queues. Speed cameras on problematic roads would have resolved speeding issues and recouped their cost within weeks. Cyclists need to be brought to answer on their lack of lights and driving on pavements. The whole thing is, frankly, amateur. the red head
  • Score: 35

1:43pm Wed 15 Jan 14

graham_Seagull says...

the red head wrote:
As someone who takes to the road several times a day, I have only twice come up behind someone doing 20mph. It's unenforced, unenforceable and in my opinion, the complacency that cyclists and pedestrians feel has made it more treacherous when approaching junctions etc. the road furniture has made it treacherous for both cyclists and pedestrians... Forcing cars to swing out and creep to ensure the way is clear before moving forward. It has also increased the traffic on previously quiet residential roads as min roundabouts open up rat runs to avoid queues. Speed cameras on problematic roads would have resolved speeding issues and recouped their cost within weeks. Cyclists need to be brought to answer on their lack of lights and driving on pavements. The whole thing is, frankly, amateur.
complacency? oh of course, its everyone elses fault.
reduce the max limit to 20mph and all of a sudden people become like lemmings, jumping in front of cars here there and everywhere.
[quote][p][bold]the red head[/bold] wrote: As someone who takes to the road several times a day, I have only twice come up behind someone doing 20mph. It's unenforced, unenforceable and in my opinion, the complacency that cyclists and pedestrians feel has made it more treacherous when approaching junctions etc. the road furniture has made it treacherous for both cyclists and pedestrians... Forcing cars to swing out and creep to ensure the way is clear before moving forward. It has also increased the traffic on previously quiet residential roads as min roundabouts open up rat runs to avoid queues. Speed cameras on problematic roads would have resolved speeding issues and recouped their cost within weeks. Cyclists need to be brought to answer on their lack of lights and driving on pavements. The whole thing is, frankly, amateur.[/p][/quote]complacency? oh of course, its everyone elses fault. reduce the max limit to 20mph and all of a sudden people become like lemmings, jumping in front of cars here there and everywhere. graham_Seagull
  • Score: -21

1:46pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Fight_Back says...

graham_Seagull wrote:
clubrob6 wrote:
The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have.
The Greens put the measures in, supported by the other parties.
The plan to go to 20mph has been in the council strategy for a few years beforehand.
So to blame the Green party for a decision that has been long in the plannig within previous adminstrations is at best, thick.
And yet Jason Kitcat claims the credit for putting in the 20mph on behalf of the Green Party ? You Greens can't have it both ways - you can't claim the credit when you think it is good but deflect the blame when you realise people actually didn't want it and are ignoring it.

I've driven regularly through the zone and rarely seen ANYONE sticking to the 20mpg limit including police cars, buses, taxis ,,,,,,, and me.

Given the council keep claiming poverty how they found £1.5m to fund this rather than help the homeless and vulnerable of the city is beyond me and a disgusting dereliction of responsibility.
[quote][p][bold]graham_Seagull[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]clubrob6[/bold] wrote: The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have.[/p][/quote]The Greens put the measures in, supported by the other parties. The plan to go to 20mph has been in the council strategy for a few years beforehand. So to blame the Green party for a decision that has been long in the plannig within previous adminstrations is at best, thick.[/p][/quote]And yet Jason Kitcat claims the credit for putting in the 20mph on behalf of the Green Party ? You Greens can't have it both ways - you can't claim the credit when you think it is good but deflect the blame when you realise people actually didn't want it and are ignoring it. I've driven regularly through the zone and rarely seen ANYONE sticking to the 20mpg limit including police cars, buses, taxis ,,,,,,, and me. Given the council keep claiming poverty how they found £1.5m to fund this rather than help the homeless and vulnerable of the city is beyond me and a disgusting dereliction of responsibility. Fight_Back
  • Score: 34

2:49pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Skidrow says...

“Police should not pick and choose which laws they enforce.” Yes they should, based on the resources they have available.
It was illegal until recently not to practice archery on the village green. Should there have been mass prosecutions or should the Police have used their discretion?
Rabid crackpots cannot make the poice their enforcers, fortunately.
“Police should not pick and choose which laws they enforce.” Yes they should, based on the resources they have available. It was illegal until recently not to practice archery on the village green. Should there have been mass prosecutions or should the Police have used their discretion? Rabid crackpots cannot make the poice their enforcers, fortunately. Skidrow
  • Score: 11

2:51pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Skidrow says...

No cyclists prosecuted for ignoring the 20 mph limit as well as all other road signs? Throw away the key!
No cyclists prosecuted for ignoring the 20 mph limit as well as all other road signs? Throw away the key! Skidrow
  • Score: 13

3:06pm Wed 15 Jan 14

salty_pete says...

He said: “Police should not pick and choose which laws they enforce.” This statement is correct but wrong. This 20mph limit is a council by-law and thus not enacted by Parliament, so it can only be prosecuted through a civil court by council officers … or so I’m led to believe by people who know about law. So the Police cannot pick and choose which law to enforce, but they can totally ignore a local council by-law if they choose. This is a similar issue as to why the Police choose not to prosecute travelers when they take wheeled motor vehicles into council owned recreation parks where they are prohibited “by council by-law”.
He said: “Police should not pick and choose which laws they enforce.” This statement is correct but wrong. This 20mph limit is a council by-law and thus not enacted by Parliament, so it can only be prosecuted through a civil court by council officers … or so I’m led to believe by people who know about law. So the Police cannot pick and choose which law to enforce, but they can totally ignore a local council by-law if they choose. This is a similar issue as to why the Police choose not to prosecute travelers when they take wheeled motor vehicles into council owned recreation parks where they are prohibited “by council by-law”. salty_pete
  • Score: 17

4:03pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Fight_Back says...

graham_Seagull wrote:
clubrob6 wrote:
The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have.
The Greens put the measures in, supported by the other parties.
The plan to go to 20mph has been in the council strategy for a few years beforehand.
So to blame the Green party for a decision that has been long in the plannig within previous adminstrations is at best, thick.
I can find no evidence to support your claim that 20mph schemes have been council strategy for years before the Greens took power. Indeed, this article suggests that they were first proposed by the Greens AFTER they took power.

http://www.theargus.
co.uk/news/9081260.2
0_MPH_zones_could_be
_introduced_in_Brigh
ton_and_Hove_next_ye
ar/
[quote][p][bold]graham_Seagull[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]clubrob6[/bold] wrote: The police know the 20MPH is unenforceable,certai nly in my area of hove the limit is ignored.It must have cost the greens a fortune for all the signs etc,money that could have been used for more positive things during times of cuts.Next the greens will start to fill our bowling greens In and planting wild flowers on them OOPs they already have.[/p][/quote]The Greens put the measures in, supported by the other parties. The plan to go to 20mph has been in the council strategy for a few years beforehand. So to blame the Green party for a decision that has been long in the plannig within previous adminstrations is at best, thick.[/p][/quote]I can find no evidence to support your claim that 20mph schemes have been council strategy for years before the Greens took power. Indeed, this article suggests that they were first proposed by the Greens AFTER they took power. http://www.theargus. co.uk/news/9081260.2 0_MPH_zones_could_be _introduced_in_Brigh ton_and_Hove_next_ye ar/ Fight_Back
  • Score: 6

4:19pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Richada says...

I followed a police van up from Preston Circus to Preston Park the other evening - at 28mph.

No prosecutions? A total success then these 20 limits!
I followed a police van up from Preston Circus to Preston Park the other evening - at 28mph. No prosecutions? A total success then these 20 limits! Richada
  • Score: 14

4:50pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Ambo Guy says...

Someone driving at 20mph will only lead to motorists behind them becoming so frustrated that they're more likely to try and overtake in a dangerous position. I've only been stuck behind one car doing 20mph and it is incredibly frustrating as I was running late and there was open road in front of this pillock.

Remind me again how much it cost of taxpayers money to implement this Green vanity project ?
Someone driving at 20mph will only lead to motorists behind them becoming so frustrated that they're more likely to try and overtake in a dangerous position. I've only been stuck behind one car doing 20mph and it is incredibly frustrating as I was running late and there was open road in front of this pillock. Remind me again how much it cost of taxpayers money to implement this Green vanity project ? Ambo Guy
  • Score: 16

4:56pm Wed 15 Jan 14

NickBtn says...

According to the council's own figures average speeds have dropped by just 1.2mph and speeds have fallen on around three quarters of roads. These figures have been used by the council to claim success and to spread the scheme across virtually all of the city

Its clear that these speed limits do not have public support and are widely ignored. Indeed, on the council's own figures, speeds on a quarter of the roads have gone UP after 20mph was put in. So a real waste of money

Much better to concentrate the spending, do 20mph properly in a few key accident blackspots and schools. This would include not just signs but works to the road to slow vehicles, help pedestrians etc. But no, the council wastes their budget on buying lots of signs that are ignored. And then claim its making safer. If they really wanted to save lives and injuries spend the same but do the job properly outside schools etc. As a previous comment said, its all a very amateur effort by the greens
According to the council's own figures average speeds have dropped by just 1.2mph and speeds have fallen on around three quarters of roads. These figures have been used by the council to claim success and to spread the scheme across virtually all of the city Its clear that these speed limits do not have public support and are widely ignored. Indeed, on the council's own figures, speeds on a quarter of the roads have gone UP after 20mph was put in. So a real waste of money Much better to concentrate the spending, do 20mph properly in a few key accident blackspots and schools. This would include not just signs but works to the road to slow vehicles, help pedestrians etc. But no, the council wastes their budget on buying lots of signs that are ignored. And then claim its making safer. If they really wanted to save lives and injuries spend the same but do the job properly outside schools etc. As a previous comment said, its all a very amateur effort by the greens NickBtn
  • Score: 14

5:18pm Wed 15 Jan 14

LargeAndInCharge says...

Of course the 20 mph limit is unenforceable - it was never passed by the government!!
Of course the 20 mph limit is unenforceable - it was never passed by the government!! LargeAndInCharge
  • Score: 9

5:43pm Wed 15 Jan 14

ARMANA says...

I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap,
I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap, ARMANA
  • Score: 9

8:00pm Wed 15 Jan 14

whatevernext2013 says...

is it because there all stuck on the lewes road
is it because there all stuck on the lewes road whatevernext2013
  • Score: 3

8:13pm Wed 15 Jan 14

I'm H Jarrs and I can't stand cars! says...

ARMANA wrote:
I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap,
Probably smiled because you look like a retard driving a crappy old car
[quote][p][bold]ARMANA[/bold] wrote: I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap,[/p][/quote]Probably smiled because you look like a retard driving a crappy old car I'm H Jarrs and I can't stand cars!
  • Score: 3

10:01pm Wed 15 Jan 14

HJarrs says...

I'm H Jarrs and I can't stand cars! wrote:
ARMANA wrote:
I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap,
Probably smiled because you look like a retard driving a crappy old car
That is quite funny!
[quote][p][bold]I'm H Jarrs and I can't stand cars![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ARMANA[/bold] wrote: I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap,[/p][/quote]Probably smiled because you look like a retard driving a crappy old car[/p][/quote]That is quite funny! HJarrs
  • Score: 1

10:06pm Wed 15 Jan 14

HJarrs says...

I think the police have been sensible giving cautions and words of advice. I think most people respond to this and I would like to see the police carry out this type of operation on a regular basis as encouraging people to drive at 20mph rather than higher speed results in reduced severity of injury when accidents do occur and that seems to me to be a good use of police time. Additionally it makes for a far better environment for pedestrains and cyclists, encouraging people to use two legs, something even the moanerati must agree with (probably not!).
I think the police have been sensible giving cautions and words of advice. I think most people respond to this and I would like to see the police carry out this type of operation on a regular basis as encouraging people to drive at 20mph rather than higher speed results in reduced severity of injury when accidents do occur and that seems to me to be a good use of police time. Additionally it makes for a far better environment for pedestrains and cyclists, encouraging people to use two legs, something even the moanerati must agree with (probably not!). HJarrs
  • Score: -4

10:42pm Wed 15 Jan 14

jainldn says...

I'm H Jarrs and I can't stand cars! wrote:
ARMANA wrote:
I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap,
Probably smiled because you look like a retard driving a crappy old car
not bad seeing as colden lane has a 40 mph speed limit
[quote][p][bold]I'm H Jarrs and I can't stand cars![/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ARMANA[/bold] wrote: I was behind a police car on Monday, he was driving at 39mph along by Coldean Lane, when I pulled along side him at the lights, he looked across & smiled, I gave him a thumbs up, The police know this speed thing in Brighton is crap,[/p][/quote]Probably smiled because you look like a retard driving a crappy old car[/p][/quote]not bad seeing as colden lane has a 40 mph speed limit jainldn
  • Score: 2

1:52am Fri 17 Jan 14

Stu says...

I just read this and realised that I drove across town today I am numb to the 20 signs already. I didnt even think about the 20 limit. I just drove at the same speed as the traffic, which was about 35mph because nobody takes any notice of it.
I just read this and realised that I drove across town today I am numb to the 20 signs already. I didnt even think about the 20 limit. I just drove at the same speed as the traffic, which was about 35mph because nobody takes any notice of it. Stu
  • Score: 2

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