The ArgusSussex teachers to strike over pay (From The Argus)

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Sussex teachers to strike over pay

The Argus: Sussex teachers to strike over pay Sussex teachers to strike over pay

More than 20,000 schoolchildren could be sent home from classes again in Brighton and Hove as teachers prepare to strike for the third time in less than 18 months.

Teachers across the county yesterday voted to strike on March 26 in a long- running dispute over pay, pensions and conditions.

Strike action in October last year saw all of the city’s 59 schools close as well as more than 250 across Sussex.

The National Union of Teachers (NUT), which voted to strike yesterday, represents about 70% of the county’s teachers.

The National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers (NASUWT) which represents 20% of the county’s teachers, is set to meet on February 14 to decide whether to join the NUT in striking.

Phil Clarke, NUT secretary for Lewes, Eastbourne and Wealden said: “These strikes have been called because talks simply haven’t taken place to resolve the issues.

"The Education Secretary (Michael Gove) has deliberately sabotaged them meaning we’re right back to where we started.

“The only way this will end, and it has to end, is when the Education Secretary compromises and stops shoving through badly thought out and damaging policies which really are about privatising education.

“I have got all the sympathy in the world for parents who will be angered by the strike but the fault here lies 100% with the Government.

”If both unions decide to strike the majority of the county’s schools would be forced to close.

Chris Keates, general secretary of the NASUWT, said: “The Secretary of State for Education must understand that the teaching profession is on the verge of a crisis.

“The relentless attack on every aspect of teachers’ working lives is taking its toll.

“It was deeply disappointing to teachers that, having agreed in October 2013 to a programme of talks with the NASUWT and the NUT, the Secretary of State for Education did not take the opportunity to progress this, despite planned strike action for November 2013 being called off to allow progress to be made.

“The only way to resolve a dispute is for the parties directly involved to sit down to have serious discussions on the issues of concern.”

One parent who was affected by the strikes in October, Paul Yates-Smith, owner of Sussex Business Bureau, had to make special arrangements for his two children to be looked after, which involved a 100-mile round trip.

Mr Yates-Smith, who said he was frustrated at the lack of communication last year, said: “My initial response is that we're going round in circles.

“At least with it being announced as early as this it will give parents a chance to make plans for the day.

“However, I would like to find out when the headteacher will be able to notify us of school closures in light of the limited notice we had for the last strike.

“I respect everyone's rights to strike and standing up and fighting for what they believe in, but it's a really difficult situation.

“My over-riding concern is we may be setting our children the wrong example.”

Comments (33)

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11:22am Sat 8 Feb 14

pwlr1966 says...

good for them
good for them pwlr1966
  • Score: 3

12:50pm Sat 8 Feb 14

twistedg says...

So schools fine parents if they take their kids away on holiday during term time as it negatively impacts on the child's education, but it's OK for teachers to go on strike, which obviously has no negative impact on children's education whatsoever. Double standards, it would seem.
So schools fine parents if they take their kids away on holiday during term time as it negatively impacts on the child's education, but it's OK for teachers to go on strike, which obviously has no negative impact on children's education whatsoever. Double standards, it would seem. twistedg
  • Score: 7

1:08pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Sir Prised says...

When my son attended our local Primary, it had between 12 & 15 staff. It now has over 50 ! A teacher used to run an entire class and now it requires several people and still employers say too many school leavers can't read and write adequately. I'd love to know what the school costs to run today, compared with the early 80s !
When my son attended our local Primary, it had between 12 & 15 staff. It now has over 50 ! A teacher used to run an entire class and now it requires several people and still employers say too many school leavers can't read and write adequately. I'd love to know what the school costs to run today, compared with the early 80s ! Sir Prised
  • Score: 10

2:26pm Sat 8 Feb 14

fredaj says...

Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.
Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle. fredaj
  • Score: -3

4:25pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Derek McMillan says...

The only countries where you do not have the right to strike are dictatorships. Boris Johnson may want to emulate Mussolini but most sane politicians would have nothing to do with idiotic draconian measures. Teachers are only striking because Gove refused to enter into meaningful negotiations. He wants to behave like a Victorian employer. It is not surprising if he is being treated like one.
Nobody wants to inconvenience parents but consider this: If Gove and the rest of the corrupt political elite went on strike it would inconvenience nobody. So what bl**dy use are they?
The only countries where you do not have the right to strike are dictatorships. Boris Johnson may want to emulate Mussolini but most sane politicians would have nothing to do with idiotic draconian measures. Teachers are only striking because Gove refused to enter into meaningful negotiations. He wants to behave like a Victorian employer. It is not surprising if he is being treated like one. Nobody wants to inconvenience parents but consider this: If Gove and the rest of the corrupt political elite went on strike it would inconvenience nobody. So what bl**dy use are they? Derek McMillan
  • Score: 4

4:26pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Derek McMillan says...

fredaj wrote:
Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.
Why on earth does anyone have to "accept performance related pay" when it is a failed system. No serious analyst thinks PRP is any use at all.
[quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.[/p][/quote]Why on earth does anyone have to "accept performance related pay" when it is a failed system. No serious analyst thinks PRP is any use at all. Derek McMillan
  • Score: 3

4:37pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Brightonlad86 says...

This sort of thing winds me up!

There are millions of people out of work. Think yourself lucky you have a job!

Things are tight for EVERYONE these days. We all have to tighten the purse strings and teachers should be no different!

As has Sir Prised mentioned, there are far more school staff these days, and yet still complain...my thinking; quality, NOT quantity
This sort of thing winds me up! There are millions of people out of work. Think yourself lucky you have a job! Things are tight for EVERYONE these days. We all have to tighten the purse strings and teachers should be no different! As has Sir Prised mentioned, there are far more school staff these days, and yet still complain...my thinking; quality, NOT quantity Brightonlad86
  • Score: 0

4:53pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Alison Smith says...

Children have to learn that they can't always get what they want when there isn't enough money to have it. Some teachers need to learn the same lesson.
Children have to learn that they can't always get what they want when there isn't enough money to have it. Some teachers need to learn the same lesson. Alison Smith
  • Score: 2

5:03pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Zamora25 says...

There are millions of people out of work. Think yourself lucky you have a job!

Things are tight for everyone these days. We all have to tighten the purse strings and teachers should be no different!
There are millions of people out of work. Think yourself lucky you have a job! Things are tight for everyone these days. We all have to tighten the purse strings and teachers should be no different! Zamora25
  • Score: -4

5:29pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Old Ladys Gin says...

Brightonlad86 wrote:
This sort of thing winds me up!

There are millions of people out of work. Think yourself lucky you have a job!

Things are tight for EVERYONE these days. We all have to tighten the purse strings and teachers should be no different!

As has Sir Prised mentioned, there are far more school staff these days, and yet still complain...my thinking; quality, NOT quantity
'my thinking; quality, NOT quantity'

In the UK? You are having a laugh surely and I hope you are a patient person.
This is the land of quantity before quality.
[quote][p][bold]Brightonlad86[/bold] wrote: This sort of thing winds me up! There are millions of people out of work. Think yourself lucky you have a job! Things are tight for EVERYONE these days. We all have to tighten the purse strings and teachers should be no different! As has Sir Prised mentioned, there are far more school staff these days, and yet still complain...my thinking; quality, NOT quantity[/p][/quote]'my thinking; quality, NOT quantity' In the UK? You are having a laugh surely and I hope you are a patient person. This is the land of quantity before quality. Old Ladys Gin
  • Score: 3

6:04pm Sat 8 Feb 14

fredaj says...

Derek McMillan wrote:
fredaj wrote:
Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.
Why on earth does anyone have to "accept performance related pay" when it is a failed system. No serious analyst thinks PRP is any use at all.
How exactly is it a "failed system" given that is how pretty much everyone else paid?
[quote][p][bold]Derek McMillan[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.[/p][/quote]Why on earth does anyone have to "accept performance related pay" when it is a failed system. No serious analyst thinks PRP is any use at all.[/p][/quote]How exactly is it a "failed system" given that is how pretty much everyone else paid? fredaj
  • Score: 4

6:39pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Darsar111 says...

Yes schools fine parents for taking their child out of education for a holiday but who created this legislation...oh that's right, the very government that teachers are complaining about! Why shouldn't teachers strike over having to work well into old age, recieve a lower pension than what was promised and against Micheal Gove, whose ideas are outdated and irrelevant to today's society. Teachers aren't striking because they fancy a 'jolly' and an unpaid day off..they're striking because they're worried about the impact that government changes are going to have on future generations! The simple facts are some core subjects are struggling to attract people to the profession...surely we should be questioning why this is?
Yes schools fine parents for taking their child out of education for a holiday but who created this legislation...oh that's right, the very government that teachers are complaining about! Why shouldn't teachers strike over having to work well into old age, recieve a lower pension than what was promised and against Micheal Gove, whose ideas are outdated and irrelevant to today's society. Teachers aren't striking because they fancy a 'jolly' and an unpaid day off..they're striking because they're worried about the impact that government changes are going to have on future generations! The simple facts are some core subjects are struggling to attract people to the profession...surely we should be questioning why this is? Darsar111
  • Score: 15

6:57pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Number Six says...

Same old same old

"Every sympathy with parents, blah, blah"
"It's the government's fault, blah, blah"
"We don't want to strike but we have no choice, blah, blah"

I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard this trotted out.

Here's an idea. If you don't want to strike then don't strike. There. Problem solved.
Same old same old "Every sympathy with parents, blah, blah" "It's the government's fault, blah, blah" "We don't want to strike but we have no choice, blah, blah" I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard this trotted out. Here's an idea. If you don't want to strike then don't strike. There. Problem solved. Number Six
  • Score: -4

7:24pm Sat 8 Feb 14

Darsar111 says...

Ok....let's not strike..let's not upset anyone..bit of luck no-one agreed with this sentiment in the past (women's rights? equal pay? racial discrimination?) Maybe one way to educate students is to realise that we are lucky enough to live in a society where we have the freedom to speak out if we disagree?
Ok....let's not strike..let's not upset anyone..bit of luck no-one agreed with this sentiment in the past (women's rights? equal pay? racial discrimination?) Maybe one way to educate students is to realise that we are lucky enough to live in a society where we have the freedom to speak out if we disagree? Darsar111
  • Score: 4

12:15am Sun 9 Feb 14

fredaj says...

Darsar111 wrote:
Ok....let's not strike..let's not upset anyone..bit of luck no-one agreed with this sentiment in the past (women's rights? equal pay? racial discrimination?) Maybe one way to educate students is to realise that we are lucky enough to live in a society where we have the freedom to speak out if we disagree?
Not sure that likening the striking of greedy teachers, with their decent pay and pensions and long holidays, with the plight of those seeking equality is a particularly good one.

Perhaps it would be a better lesson for students if unions fought for those who are being exploited in the workplace, for example those on zero hour contracts, rather than teaching that those who are in a position to do so can bully their way to better terms and conditions than they would otherwise be entitled to.
[quote][p][bold]Darsar111[/bold] wrote: Ok....let's not strike..let's not upset anyone..bit of luck no-one agreed with this sentiment in the past (women's rights? equal pay? racial discrimination?) Maybe one way to educate students is to realise that we are lucky enough to live in a society where we have the freedom to speak out if we disagree?[/p][/quote]Not sure that likening the striking of greedy teachers, with their decent pay and pensions and long holidays, with the plight of those seeking equality is a particularly good one. Perhaps it would be a better lesson for students if unions fought for those who are being exploited in the workplace, for example those on zero hour contracts, rather than teaching that those who are in a position to do so can bully their way to better terms and conditions than they would otherwise be entitled to. fredaj
  • Score: 0

8:51am Sun 9 Feb 14

Fight_Back says...

“The only way to resolve a dispute is for the parties directly involved to sit down to have serious discussions on the issues of concern.”

So even Chris Keates agrees a strike won't achieve anything but yet they still strike ???
“The only way to resolve a dispute is for the parties directly involved to sit down to have serious discussions on the issues of concern.” So even Chris Keates agrees a strike won't achieve anything but yet they still strike ??? Fight_Back
  • Score: 3

12:41pm Sun 9 Feb 14

getThisCoalitionOut says...

I agree with the right to strike.

I do think something should be laid on though for the parents effected by the strike, those who work and have children who can't be left alone will be possibly financially effected and lose a day of their precious holidays.

Maybe some parents who aren't striking and don't work, could organise something to help those that effected? That would be a community spirited thing to do which we need more of in todays world!

We do need to support each other more and to complain against a government that has increased their own pensions and their pay enormously - which considering we are being told this is a time we are being told by these traitors that we all have to lose out is unacceptable.
I agree with the right to strike. I do think something should be laid on though for the parents effected by the strike, those who work and have children who can't be left alone will be possibly financially effected and lose a day of their precious holidays. Maybe some parents who aren't striking and don't work, could organise something to help those that effected? That would be a community spirited thing to do which we need more of in todays world! We do need to support each other more and to complain against a government that has increased their own pensions and their pay enormously - which considering we are being told this is a time we are being told by these traitors that we all have to lose out is unacceptable. getThisCoalitionOut
  • Score: 2

2:50pm Sun 9 Feb 14

Number Six says...

The government increased it's own pay and pensions? When exactly did this happen? The last I heard IPSA proposed an increase but all three leaders have said that it's wrong. Breaking news for you. It wouldn't be just government but - wait for it - Labour MPs would get it also. And if we are throwing our toys out of the pram about "traitors" (oh, please) and unacceptable behaviour then I submit the politicians are rank amateurs compared to that howling hypocrite Bob Crow. A six figure salary and he still lives in subsidised housing. Shameful. Stil, let's not get in the way of a meaningless rant, eh?
The government increased it's own pay and pensions? When exactly did this happen? The last I heard IPSA proposed an increase but all three leaders have said that it's wrong. Breaking news for you. It wouldn't be just government but - wait for it - Labour MPs would get it also. And if we are throwing our toys out of the pram about "traitors" (oh, please) and unacceptable behaviour then I submit the politicians are rank amateurs compared to that howling hypocrite Bob Crow. A six figure salary and he still lives in subsidised housing. Shameful. Stil, let's not get in the way of a meaningless rant, eh? Number Six
  • Score: -1

3:02pm Sun 9 Feb 14

xlaughingx says...

It doesn't matter what the job is......You choose a stressful and challenging job knowing that you are promised a certain pay and set conditions about your retirement age ...then someone comes along and says "actually we've changed our mind - you're going to lose the equivalent of 10% of your pay over a decade.You're going to have to work for longer before you retire and we're going to pay much less pension than we promised". If teachers don't strike they are not setting a good example by standing up for their own rights.This is an important quality to have by all.
It doesn't matter what the job is......You choose a stressful and challenging job knowing that you are promised a certain pay and set conditions about your retirement age ...then someone comes along and says "actually we've changed our mind - you're going to lose the equivalent of 10% of your pay over a decade.You're going to have to work for longer before you retire and we're going to pay much less pension than we promised". If teachers don't strike they are not setting a good example by standing up for their own rights.This is an important quality to have by all. xlaughingx
  • Score: 1

10:15pm Sun 9 Feb 14

indiequeen says...

twistedg wrote:
So schools fine parents if they take their kids away on holiday during term time as it negatively impacts on the child's education, but it's OK for teachers to go on strike, which obviously has no negative impact on children's education whatsoever. Double standards, it would seem.
State schools do not fine parents, its the local authority.
Missing a day of school can be detrimental to a childs education as they as they then have to try to catch up the learning they have missed compared to their classmates. The more days off for holidays, etc the more teaching they have missed putting them a a real disadvantage. Put yourself in that pupils place and imagine walking into a maths lesson after missing a few days, ll your classmates have been taught about a particular calculation and you have no idea what the teacher is talking about. Also, this impacts on the rest of the class while the teacher has to go over it all again when they could've been moving forward with the lesson.
If there is a strike and the school is shut for a day and they haven't missed any learning!
[quote][p][bold]twistedg[/bold] wrote: So schools fine parents if they take their kids away on holiday during term time as it negatively impacts on the child's education, but it's OK for teachers to go on strike, which obviously has no negative impact on children's education whatsoever. Double standards, it would seem.[/p][/quote]State schools do not fine parents, its the local authority. Missing a day of school can be detrimental to a childs education as they as they then have to try to catch up the learning they have missed compared to their classmates. The more days off for holidays, etc the more teaching they have missed putting them a a real disadvantage. Put yourself in that pupils place and imagine walking into a maths lesson after missing a few days, ll your classmates have been taught about a particular calculation and you have no idea what the teacher is talking about. Also, this impacts on the rest of the class while the teacher has to go over it all again when they could've been moving forward with the lesson. If there is a strike and the school is shut for a day and they haven't missed any learning! indiequeen
  • Score: 3

10:16pm Sun 9 Feb 14

indiequeen says...

indiequeen wrote:
twistedg wrote:
So schools fine parents if they take their kids away on holiday during term time as it negatively impacts on the child's education, but it's OK for teachers to go on strike, which obviously has no negative impact on children's education whatsoever. Double standards, it would seem.
State schools do not fine parents, its the local authority.
Missing a day of school can be detrimental to a childs education as they as they then have to try to catch up the learning they have missed compared to their classmates. The more days off for holidays, etc the more teaching they have missed putting them a a real disadvantage. Put yourself in that pupils place and imagine walking into a maths lesson after missing a few days, ll your classmates have been taught about a particular calculation and you have no idea what the teacher is talking about. Also, this impacts on the rest of the class while the teacher has to go over it all again when they could've been moving forward with the lesson.
If there is a strike and the school is shut for a day and they haven't missed any learning!
Excuse the typos, a) im not a teacher b) I have fat fingers and a tablet!
[quote][p][bold]indiequeen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]twistedg[/bold] wrote: So schools fine parents if they take their kids away on holiday during term time as it negatively impacts on the child's education, but it's OK for teachers to go on strike, which obviously has no negative impact on children's education whatsoever. Double standards, it would seem.[/p][/quote]State schools do not fine parents, its the local authority. Missing a day of school can be detrimental to a childs education as they as they then have to try to catch up the learning they have missed compared to their classmates. The more days off for holidays, etc the more teaching they have missed putting them a a real disadvantage. Put yourself in that pupils place and imagine walking into a maths lesson after missing a few days, ll your classmates have been taught about a particular calculation and you have no idea what the teacher is talking about. Also, this impacts on the rest of the class while the teacher has to go over it all again when they could've been moving forward with the lesson. If there is a strike and the school is shut for a day and they haven't missed any learning![/p][/quote]Excuse the typos, a) im not a teacher b) I have fat fingers and a tablet! indiequeen
  • Score: 0

12:14am Mon 10 Feb 14

PandorasBox13 says...

fredaj wrote:
Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.
These kind of comments can only ever be made by someone who is completely unaware of the stresses of teaching. It angers me that anyone could think that a teachers performance and therefore class grades could be improved by PRP. If you're in the job it's because you love it and want the best outcome for the students you teach. It is NOT something you go into for the glamour or the pay.
A lot of people, the government included think that teaching is easy and create ridiculous teacher training schemes where new graduates have six weeks of training before going into a school (check out Tough Young Teachers on bbc3) and then they turn around and say 'it's a lot harder than I thought it would be'.
Get priorities right, the education of the next generation is vital.
[quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.[/p][/quote]These kind of comments can only ever be made by someone who is completely unaware of the stresses of teaching. It angers me that anyone could think that a teachers performance and therefore class grades could be improved by PRP. If you're in the job it's because you love it and want the best outcome for the students you teach. It is NOT something you go into for the glamour or the pay. A lot of people, the government included think that teaching is easy and create ridiculous teacher training schemes where new graduates have six weeks of training before going into a school (check out Tough Young Teachers on bbc3) and then they turn around and say 'it's a lot harder than I thought it would be'. Get priorities right, the education of the next generation is vital. PandorasBox13
  • Score: 4

12:16am Mon 10 Feb 14

tulip1 says...

Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are.
Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are. tulip1
  • Score: 4

12:18am Mon 10 Feb 14

tulip1 says...

Well said PandorasBox13!!
Well said PandorasBox13!! tulip1
  • Score: 1

12:26am Mon 10 Feb 14

PandorasBox13 says...

Sir Prised wrote:
When my son attended our local Primary, it had between 12 & 15 staff. It now has over 50 ! A teacher used to run an entire class and now it requires several people and still employers say too many school leavers can't read and write adequately. I'd love to know what the school costs to run today, compared with the early 80s !
Sir Prised this May have something to do with the following
1) class sizes are much larger.
2) there are greater numbers of students with special educational needs in mainstream schools because so many specialist schools have closed (and the school gets paid more for a student with a disability so it will pack them in)
3) more students with English as an additional language.
[quote][p][bold]Sir Prised[/bold] wrote: When my son attended our local Primary, it had between 12 & 15 staff. It now has over 50 ! A teacher used to run an entire class and now it requires several people and still employers say too many school leavers can't read and write adequately. I'd love to know what the school costs to run today, compared with the early 80s ![/p][/quote]Sir Prised this May have something to do with the following 1) class sizes are much larger. 2) there are greater numbers of students with special educational needs in mainstream schools because so many specialist schools have closed (and the school gets paid more for a student with a disability so it will pack them in) 3) more students with English as an additional language. PandorasBox13
  • Score: 2

12:34am Mon 10 Feb 14

PandorasBox13 says...

tulip1 wrote:
Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are.
If only Michael Gove would give it a go! I'd like to see him try and teach a class of over 30, a proportion of whom have English as an additional language and others are either visually impaired, have Downs or some other disability and you have to show that ALL students are engaged and making progress. Not to mention any students who have social or behavioural disorders such as elective mutes or ADHD. Believe me this is the reality of it, within the current conditions PRP will NOT work.
[quote][p][bold]tulip1[/bold] wrote: Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are.[/p][/quote]If only Michael Gove would give it a go! I'd like to see him try and teach a class of over 30, a proportion of whom have English as an additional language and others are either visually impaired, have Downs or some other disability and you have to show that ALL students are engaged and making progress. Not to mention any students who have social or behavioural disorders such as elective mutes or ADHD. Believe me this is the reality of it, within the current conditions PRP will NOT work. PandorasBox13
  • Score: 2

11:35am Mon 10 Feb 14

tulip1 says...

My child is one of those mentioned by PandoraBox13...my child has a visual impairement plus english as an additional language.
My child is one of those mentioned by PandoraBox13...my child has a visual impairement plus english as an additional language. tulip1
  • Score: 0

1:16pm Mon 10 Feb 14

fredaj says...

PandorasBox13 wrote:
tulip1 wrote:
Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are.
If only Michael Gove would give it a go! I'd like to see him try and teach a class of over 30, a proportion of whom have English as an additional language and others are either visually impaired, have Downs or some other disability and you have to show that ALL students are engaged and making progress. Not to mention any students who have social or behavioural disorders such as elective mutes or ADHD. Believe me this is the reality of it, within the current conditions PRP will NOT work.
If teaching is too hard then all I can suggest is that you try to find yourself a job you can do.
[quote][p][bold]PandorasBox13[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]tulip1[/bold] wrote: Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are.[/p][/quote]If only Michael Gove would give it a go! I'd like to see him try and teach a class of over 30, a proportion of whom have English as an additional language and others are either visually impaired, have Downs or some other disability and you have to show that ALL students are engaged and making progress. Not to mention any students who have social or behavioural disorders such as elective mutes or ADHD. Believe me this is the reality of it, within the current conditions PRP will NOT work.[/p][/quote]If teaching is too hard then all I can suggest is that you try to find yourself a job you can do. fredaj
  • Score: -1

1:17pm Mon 10 Feb 14

fredaj says...

PandorasBox13 wrote:
Sir Prised wrote:
When my son attended our local Primary, it had between 12 & 15 staff. It now has over 50 ! A teacher used to run an entire class and now it requires several people and still employers say too many school leavers can't read and write adequately. I'd love to know what the school costs to run today, compared with the early 80s !
Sir Prised this May have something to do with the following
1) class sizes are much larger.
2) there are greater numbers of students with special educational needs in mainstream schools because so many specialist schools have closed (and the school gets paid more for a student with a disability so it will pack them in)
3) more students with English as an additional language.
Class sizes are not larger - in the 70s my class size was 33.
[quote][p][bold]PandorasBox13[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Sir Prised[/bold] wrote: When my son attended our local Primary, it had between 12 & 15 staff. It now has over 50 ! A teacher used to run an entire class and now it requires several people and still employers say too many school leavers can't read and write adequately. I'd love to know what the school costs to run today, compared with the early 80s ![/p][/quote]Sir Prised this May have something to do with the following 1) class sizes are much larger. 2) there are greater numbers of students with special educational needs in mainstream schools because so many specialist schools have closed (and the school gets paid more for a student with a disability so it will pack them in) 3) more students with English as an additional language.[/p][/quote]Class sizes are not larger - in the 70s my class size was 33. fredaj
  • Score: -1

1:26pm Mon 10 Feb 14

fredaj says...

xlaughingx wrote:
It doesn't matter what the job is......You choose a stressful and challenging job knowing that you are promised a certain pay and set conditions about your retirement age ...then someone comes along and says "actually we've changed our mind - you're going to lose the equivalent of 10% of your pay over a decade.You're going to have to work for longer before you retire and we're going to pay much less pension than we promised". If teachers don't strike they are not setting a good example by standing up for their own rights.This is an important quality to have by all.
I don't know about "promises" but I do know about contracts and the contracts teachers have clearly allow for pensions ages to change as well as the way their pension is funded and calculated.

If it were otherwise, teacher would need to agree to these changes and that isn't going to be happening any time soon so it is simply not a requirement and never was.

We are all having to cope with the spectre of retiring later (myself, I have gone from the "promise" of 60 to the current estimate of 67) and we are all having to pay more for those pensions if we want to retire on a decent amount. Teacher are not a special case as this is happening to us all.
[quote][p][bold]xlaughingx[/bold] wrote: It doesn't matter what the job is......You choose a stressful and challenging job knowing that you are promised a certain pay and set conditions about your retirement age ...then someone comes along and says "actually we've changed our mind - you're going to lose the equivalent of 10% of your pay over a decade.You're going to have to work for longer before you retire and we're going to pay much less pension than we promised". If teachers don't strike they are not setting a good example by standing up for their own rights.This is an important quality to have by all.[/p][/quote]I don't know about "promises" but I do know about contracts and the contracts teachers have clearly allow for pensions ages to change as well as the way their pension is funded and calculated. If it were otherwise, teacher would need to agree to these changes and that isn't going to be happening any time soon so it is simply not a requirement and never was. We are all having to cope with the spectre of retiring later (myself, I have gone from the "promise" of 60 to the current estimate of 67) and we are all having to pay more for those pensions if we want to retire on a decent amount. Teacher are not a special case as this is happening to us all. fredaj
  • Score: 0

1:36pm Mon 10 Feb 14

fredaj says...

PandorasBox13 wrote:
fredaj wrote:
Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.
These kind of comments can only ever be made by someone who is completely unaware of the stresses of teaching. It angers me that anyone could think that a teachers performance and therefore class grades could be improved by PRP. If you're in the job it's because you love it and want the best outcome for the students you teach. It is NOT something you go into for the glamour or the pay.
A lot of people, the government included think that teaching is easy and create ridiculous teacher training schemes where new graduates have six weeks of training before going into a school (check out Tough Young Teachers on bbc3) and then they turn around and say 'it's a lot harder than I thought it would be'.
Get priorities right, the education of the next generation is vital.
If a teacher cannot cope with the stress of what we are repeatedly told is a stressful job then clearly they need to find another one - teaching is hardly going to change to suit. And of course it not easy - what professional job is - but that does not mean you should be paid just for turning up year in, year out.

The whole point of paying teachers according to their ability and performance and efforts is to reward those who do a good job and to help weed out those are not and to encourage those who just plod along to do better. And it most certainly not about paying teachers more solely on the back of the class get better grades!

I make no apology, doing the job because you love it is simply not good enough - you actually need to be decent at it - and if you aren't decent you should be sacked.
[quote][p][bold]PandorasBox13[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.[/p][/quote]These kind of comments can only ever be made by someone who is completely unaware of the stresses of teaching. It angers me that anyone could think that a teachers performance and therefore class grades could be improved by PRP. If you're in the job it's because you love it and want the best outcome for the students you teach. It is NOT something you go into for the glamour or the pay. A lot of people, the government included think that teaching is easy and create ridiculous teacher training schemes where new graduates have six weeks of training before going into a school (check out Tough Young Teachers on bbc3) and then they turn around and say 'it's a lot harder than I thought it would be'. Get priorities right, the education of the next generation is vital.[/p][/quote]If a teacher cannot cope with the stress of what we are repeatedly told is a stressful job then clearly they need to find another one - teaching is hardly going to change to suit. And of course it not easy - what professional job is - but that does not mean you should be paid just for turning up year in, year out. The whole point of paying teachers according to their ability and performance and efforts is to reward those who do a good job and to help weed out those are not and to encourage those who just plod along to do better. And it most certainly not about paying teachers more solely on the back of the class get better grades! I make no apology, doing the job because you love it is simply not good enough - you actually need to be decent at it - and if you aren't decent you should be sacked. fredaj
  • Score: -2

9:22pm Mon 10 Feb 14

PandorasBox13 says...

fredaj wrote:
PandorasBox13 wrote:
tulip1 wrote:
Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are.
If only Michael Gove would give it a go! I'd like to see him try and teach a class of over 30, a proportion of whom have English as an additional language and others are either visually impaired, have Downs or some other disability and you have to show that ALL students are engaged and making progress. Not to mention any students who have social or behavioural disorders such as elective mutes or ADHD. Believe me this is the reality of it, within the current conditions PRP will NOT work.
If teaching is too hard then all I can suggest is that you try to find yourself a job you can do.
Fredaj you are clearly misunderstanding my comments. I am trying to emphasise the importance of valuing our teachers as it is they who are shaping the minds of our next generation. The problem is that pen pushers behind the safety of their desks think that teaching is easy and that if 'you can't do, teach'. The reality is that the majority of teachers I know teach because they love what they do and do a darn good job, myself included. Out of interest what job do you do?
[quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]PandorasBox13[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]tulip1[/bold] wrote: Teachers work extremely hard to educate our children. The public under mine their efforts. Its not easy teaching a class of around 30 kids, even harder if children with special needs are in there too. This is where our children are for half of their day, 5 days a week. They learn from teachers what we parents wouldn't be able to teach. Maybe some of you guys should spend a few days observing a class. Then maybe you would appreciate teacher's work and see how under paid they really are.[/p][/quote]If only Michael Gove would give it a go! I'd like to see him try and teach a class of over 30, a proportion of whom have English as an additional language and others are either visually impaired, have Downs or some other disability and you have to show that ALL students are engaged and making progress. Not to mention any students who have social or behavioural disorders such as elective mutes or ADHD. Believe me this is the reality of it, within the current conditions PRP will NOT work.[/p][/quote]If teaching is too hard then all I can suggest is that you try to find yourself a job you can do.[/p][/quote]Fredaj you are clearly misunderstanding my comments. I am trying to emphasise the importance of valuing our teachers as it is they who are shaping the minds of our next generation. The problem is that pen pushers behind the safety of their desks think that teaching is easy and that if 'you can't do, teach'. The reality is that the majority of teachers I know teach because they love what they do and do a darn good job, myself included. Out of interest what job do you do? PandorasBox13
  • Score: 0

9:34pm Mon 10 Feb 14

PandorasBox13 says...

fredaj wrote:
PandorasBox13 wrote:
fredaj wrote:
Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.
These kind of comments can only ever be made by someone who is completely unaware of the stresses of teaching. It angers me that anyone could think that a teachers performance and therefore class grades could be improved by PRP. If you're in the job it's because you love it and want the best outcome for the students you teach. It is NOT something you go into for the glamour or the pay.
A lot of people, the government included think that teaching is easy and create ridiculous teacher training schemes where new graduates have six weeks of training before going into a school (check out Tough Young Teachers on bbc3) and then they turn around and say 'it's a lot harder than I thought it would be'.
Get priorities right, the education of the next generation is vital.
If a teacher cannot cope with the stress of what we are repeatedly told is a stressful job then clearly they need to find another one - teaching is hardly going to change to suit. And of course it not easy - what professional job is - but that does not mean you should be paid just for turning up year in, year out.

The whole point of paying teachers according to their ability and performance and efforts is to reward those who do a good job and to help weed out those are not and to encourage those who just plod along to do better. And it most certainly not about paying teachers more solely on the back of the class get better grades!

I make no apology, doing the job because you love it is simply not good enough - you actually need to be decent at it - and if you aren't decent you should be sacked.
Fredaj I completely agree with you, if you are no good at your job you should be sacked. Fortunately these days there are very few teachers who merely turn up year in year out until they retire. It sounds like you had quite an unfortunate experience at school as your lack of regard and respect for teachers and what they do is evident.
[quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]PandorasBox13[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredaj[/bold] wrote: Teachers simply have to accept performance related pay and the government would be wrong to back down on this point of principle.[/p][/quote]These kind of comments can only ever be made by someone who is completely unaware of the stresses of teaching. It angers me that anyone could think that a teachers performance and therefore class grades could be improved by PRP. If you're in the job it's because you love it and want the best outcome for the students you teach. It is NOT something you go into for the glamour or the pay. A lot of people, the government included think that teaching is easy and create ridiculous teacher training schemes where new graduates have six weeks of training before going into a school (check out Tough Young Teachers on bbc3) and then they turn around and say 'it's a lot harder than I thought it would be'. Get priorities right, the education of the next generation is vital.[/p][/quote]If a teacher cannot cope with the stress of what we are repeatedly told is a stressful job then clearly they need to find another one - teaching is hardly going to change to suit. And of course it not easy - what professional job is - but that does not mean you should be paid just for turning up year in, year out. The whole point of paying teachers according to their ability and performance and efforts is to reward those who do a good job and to help weed out those are not and to encourage those who just plod along to do better. And it most certainly not about paying teachers more solely on the back of the class get better grades! I make no apology, doing the job because you love it is simply not good enough - you actually need to be decent at it - and if you aren't decent you should be sacked.[/p][/quote]Fredaj I completely agree with you, if you are no good at your job you should be sacked. Fortunately these days there are very few teachers who merely turn up year in year out until they retire. It sounds like you had quite an unfortunate experience at school as your lack of regard and respect for teachers and what they do is evident. PandorasBox13
  • Score: 0

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