More time for plans for Black Rock scheme (From The Argus)

freddy, Brighton says...
6:30am Thu 13 Sep 07

This is just one giant scam. The Black Rock site is being taken over as the compound for the Marina works, and that's going on for 5 years. Go ask the site foreman.

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Stroller, Hove says...
8:01am Thu 13 Sep 07

No mention of how all those people might get there...

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Keith, Hove says...
9:17am Thu 13 Sep 07

I agree with Freddy, the whole site is a scam. Brighton & Hove council know it will never come to anything but want works there for a long period of time so that it rules out the site being used for the new sewage works!

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Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
9:23am Thu 13 Sep 07

Stroller wrote:
No mention of how all those people might get there...

In this short article? Now there is a surprise. I would imagine the transport issues will be addressed in the planning application and the subsequent processes.

Keith, I think Brighton & Hove Council are doing their utmost to ensure that the scheme does go ahead, which is why the deadline has been extended.

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mike, brighton says...
10:32am Thu 13 Sep 07

yeh, cos we really need TWO ice rinks -£70 million on a white elephant, or £70 million for policing out-of-control Brighton.... which would you prefer....?

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Frank, Brighton says...
11:52am Thu 13 Sep 07

mike wrote:
yeh, cos we really need TWO ice rinks -£70 million on a white elephant, or £70 million for policing out-of-control Brighton.... which would you prefer....?

The ice rinks of course. We've been promised one for 40 years since the old West St one closed, I think two would be great to make up the ones that have been lost. And while we're about it, how about a swimming pool to replace the Black Rock one too?

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Flat Foot Soozie, Brunswick Square says...
12:08pm Thu 13 Sep 07

I cannot see how they will get the finances for this, otherwise it would have happened before now. Wasn't there some idea a bunch of buses would get to and from the place? What a joke.

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Ken, Kemp Town says...
2:43pm Thu 13 Sep 07

It is simply impossible for 10,000 people to leave Black Rock in less than a couple of hours. You'd need around 170 busses. That number of busses won't be available. People won't be able to board them simultaneously and safely. Do the maths. The traffic bods have and so have the fire brigade. Neither is happy. And quite how a twin ice rink is going to make money is anyone's guess - why do you think the last one closed down? If it is built, expect a call for a huge subsidy from council tax payers - most of whom will never set foot in the place.

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Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
3:22pm Thu 13 Sep 07

Ken, using your logic, we would have needed 2,586 buses for the Pride event.

Black Rock is not in the back of beyond and easy walking distance from the town centre.

It is not just an ice rink, if you hadn't noticed. There are a variety of sources of income from this development.

Why not wait until you have seen the planning application before deciding you don't want it?

I despair sometimes. There are too many people that are willing to hold this city back.

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Ken, Kemp Town says...
4:08pm Thu 13 Sep 07

Paul, sorry, perhaps I didn't make the point clearly enough. Unlike Pride, where people came and went over many hours and were not terribly worried about getting home very late, at the Black Rock site, you will have one exit road and 10,000 people all leaving at the same time and all wanting to get home quickly. That simply can't happen.

And, yes, I know that there will be other sources of substantial revenue, all of which are dependent on large audiences using the centre frequently. Quite whether these will be enough to cover a £70 million build cost and running costs that will also run to millions a year is a moot point. Will the developers allow people to see if the business case is realistic? The original Brighton Centre was supposed to make money and didn't though it certainly has had benefits for the city and now it will have to be rebuilt to try to become profitable once more. Big projects are not paid for by optimism.

As to the "wait for the planning application" point, the same applies to you. How about waiting to see the detail before evangelising?

Some of us have seen big projects fail all to often because people got carried away with them and didn't test assumptions. The West Bromwich public arts centre cost £52 million and closed because it was unviable. Sheffield's National Centre for Popular Music proved anything but and cost £15 million. The Earth Centre in Doncaster opened in 2002 and closed two years later. The National Botanical Garden of Wales only survives because the Welsh Assembly pumps in public money. The Clissold Leisure Centre in Stoke Newighton cost £31 million and shut after just a year, having haemmorhaged money.

All were built with good intentions and supported by people wanting "progress". A bit of hard headedness before they got the go-ahead would have saved a lot of grief.

We all want the city to prosper - but let's be sure that major projects are going to work before we fund them. Anything unfair about that?

Paul, sorry, perhaps I didn't make the point clearly enough. Unlike Pride, where people came and went over many hours and were not terribly worried about getting home very late, at the Black Rock site, you will have one exit road and 10,000 people all leaving at the same time and all wanting to get home quickly. That simply can't happen. And, yes, I know that there will be other sources of substantial revenue, all of which are dependent on large audiences using the centre frequently. Quite whether these will be enough to cover a £70 million build cost and running costs that will also run to millions a year is a moot point. Will the developers allow people to see if the business case is realistic? The original Brighton Centre was supposed to make money and didn't though it certainly has had benefits for the city and now it will have to be rebuilt to try to become profitable once more. Big projects are not paid for by optimism. As to the "wait for the planning application" point, the same applies to you. How about waiting to see the detail before evangelising? Some of us have seen big projects fail all to often because people got carried away with them and didn't test assumptions. The West Bromwich public arts centre cost £52 million and closed because it was unviable. Sheffield's National Centre for Popular Music proved anything but and cost £15 million. The Earth Centre in Doncaster opened in 2002 and closed two years later. The National Botanical Garden of Wales only survives because the Welsh Assembly pumps in public money. The Clissold Leisure Centre in Stoke Newighton cost £31 million and shut after just a year, having haemmorhaged money. All were built with good intentions and supported by people wanting "progress". A bit of hard headedness before they got the go-ahead would have saved a lot of grief. We all want the city to prosper - but let's be sure that major projects are going to work before we fund them. Anything unfair about that?

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Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
4:52pm Thu 13 Sep 07

Paul, sorry, perhaps I didn't make the point clearly enough. Unlike Pride, where people came and went over many hours and were not terribly worried about getting home very late, at the Black Rock site, you will have one exit road and 10,000 people all leaving at the same time and all wanting to get home quickly. That simply can't happen.

I realise that. But there were a substantial amount of people leaving at a similar time towards the end of the event and Brighton did not collapse. When I say substantial, I mean a great deal more than 10,000 people. This was the problem with the original plans and I would expect this quandary to have been tackled.

And, yes, I know that there will be other sources of substantial revenue, all of which are dependent on large audiences using the centre frequently. Quite whether these will be enough to cover a £70 million build cost and running costs that will also run to millions a year is a moot point. Will the developers allow people to see if the business case is realistic? The original Brighton Centre was supposed to make money and didn't though it certainly has had benefits for the city and now it will have to be rebuilt to try to become profitable once more. Big projects are not paid for by optimism.

I cant see how you can draw a direct comparison with the Brighton Centre. Income relies on events staged there and events staged there rely on the facilities there, which are inadequate.

As to the "wait for the planning application" point, the same applies to you. How about waiting to see the detail before evangelising?

Where did I evangelise this development? I was pointing out that many people are quick to criticise a project without studying the plans in detail.

Some of us have seen big projects fail all to often because people got carried away with them and didn't test assumptions. The West Bromwich public arts centre cost £52 million and closed because it was unviable. Sheffield's National Centre for Popular Music proved anything but and cost £15 million. The Earth Centre in Doncaster opened in 2002 and closed two years later. The National Botanical Garden of Wales only survives because the Welsh Assembly pumps in public money. The Clissold Leisure Centre in Stoke Newighton cost £31 million and shut after just a year, having haemmorhaged money.

Whilst these are good examples of schemes deemed as failures and a financial blight, it would be churlish to set your sights at a low level of quality or size. There is always the element of risk involved in any given project and there are many projects that can be deemed as a success. Black Rock is certainly set to stage a greater range of events than any of the projects you mention, plus there are plans for the Ice Hockey team and Basketball team to reform and relocate, respectively. The Guildford spectrum has been a resounding success, has it not? Also worth noting is that the towns you mention are not renowned tourist hotspots.

All were built with good intentions and supported by people wanting "progress". A bit of hard headedness before they got the go-ahead would have saved a lot of grief.
Which will be the case for this development. Have I missed a mad rush to get this project off the ground? We are not the fastest moving of cities, by any means.

We all want the city to prosper - but let's be sure that major projects are going to work before we fund them. Anything unfair about that?
Not at all, which is why we should wait until the planning application has been lodged before being over critical of the development.

Paul, sorry, perhaps I didn't make the point clearly enough. Unlike Pride, where people came and went over many hours and were not terribly worried about getting home very late, at the Black Rock site, you will have one exit road and 10,000 people all leaving at the same time and all wanting to get home quickly. That simply can't happen. [bold]I realise that. But there were a substantial amount of people leaving at a similar time towards the end of the event and Brighton did not collapse. When I say substantial, I mean a great deal more than 10,000 people. This was the problem with the original plans and I would expect this quandary to have been tackled.[/bold] And, yes, I know that there will be other sources of substantial revenue, all of which are dependent on large audiences using the centre frequently. Quite whether these will be enough to cover a £70 million build cost and running costs that will also run to millions a year is a moot point. Will the developers allow people to see if the business case is realistic? The original Brighton Centre was supposed to make money and didn't though it certainly has had benefits for the city and now it will have to be rebuilt to try to become profitable once more. Big projects are not paid for by optimism. [bold]I cant see how you can draw a direct comparison with the Brighton Centre. Income relies on events staged there and events staged there rely on the facilities there, which are inadequate.[/bold] As to the "wait for the planning application" point, the same applies to you. How about waiting to see the detail before evangelising? [bold]Where did I evangelise this development? I was pointing out that many people are quick to criticise a project without studying the plans in detail.[/bold] Some of us have seen big projects fail all to often because people got carried away with them and didn't test assumptions. The West Bromwich public arts centre cost £52 million and closed because it was unviable. Sheffield's National Centre for Popular Music proved anything but and cost £15 million. The Earth Centre in Doncaster opened in 2002 and closed two years later. The National Botanical Garden of Wales only survives because the Welsh Assembly pumps in public money. The Clissold Leisure Centre in Stoke Newighton cost £31 million and shut after just a year, having haemmorhaged money. [bold]Whilst these are good examples of schemes deemed as failures and a financial blight, it would be churlish to set your sights at a low level of quality or size. There is always the element of risk involved in any given project and there are many projects that can be deemed as a success. Black Rock is certainly set to stage a greater range of events than any of the projects you mention, plus there are plans for the Ice Hockey team and Basketball team to reform and relocate, respectively. The Guildford spectrum has been a resounding success, has it not? Also worth noting is that the towns you mention are not renowned tourist hotspots.[/bold] All were built with good intentions and supported by people wanting "progress". A bit of hard headedness before they got the go-ahead would have saved a lot of grief. [bold]Which will be the case for this development. Have I missed a mad rush to get this project off the ground? We are not the fastest moving of cities, by any means.[/bold] We all want the city to prosper - but let's be sure that major projects are going to work before we fund them. Anything unfair about that? [bold]Not at all, which is why we should wait until the planning application has been lodged before being over critical of the development.[/bold]

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Ken, Kemp Town says...
6:18pm Thu 13 Sep 07

Paul, you're still missing the point. At Black Rock there is only one entry/exit road, not dozens as there was at Pride. It's a real problem for any development there that is based on the movement of large numbers of people. At Pride, lots of people were prepared to spend a long time getting home or walking to stay with friends. That won't be the case at Black Rock - it won't be a once-a-year event but several times a month. It's a safety and logistics nightmare, as both Brighton traffic officers and the fire brigade will tell you.

The comparison with the Brighton Centre is valid - it was supposed to make money. The ice rink is supposed to make money. The Guildford Spectrum centre is a full-blown leisure centre positioned to take advantage of many roads and has lots of parking. Financially, it's done quite well. This year it is estimated to lose Guildford council around £392,000, which isn't that bad on a near £6 million turnover and it does supply a huge range of leisure activities. Guildfordians seem happy to pay the small subsidy and they are working hard to get it into the black.

Are you seriously suggesting that enough people will follow the ice hockey team and the basketball team to make them and the venue viable? And are you suggesting that people will go to Black Rock just because it's in a tourist town?

There has been pressure from interest groups to put an ice rink on the site for years. If they were prepared to pay for it and pay any losses, fine. Let's see the figures.

Unfortunately, they won't be in the planning application. If the scheme is passed because it's progressive and then fails, who picks up the pieces? I doubt the ice hockey team or the basketball team will have the resources to do so, even if they wanted to.

To repeat, it's not just about the planning process. It's about business, who pays and what's reasonable. Waiting until a planning application is in before commenting on a scheme is often waiting until it's too late.

Oh, and people really should declare if they have an interest in a scheme like this. For the record, I don't, for or against. I've just lived here for 20 years and want the best for my chosen home town.

Paul, you're still missing the point. At Black Rock there is only one entry/exit road, not dozens as there was at Pride. It's a real problem for any development there that is based on the movement of large numbers of people. At Pride, lots of people were prepared to spend a long time getting home or walking to stay with friends. That won't be the case at Black Rock - it won't be a once-a-year event but several times a month. It's a safety and logistics nightmare, as both Brighton traffic officers and the fire brigade will tell you. The comparison with the Brighton Centre is valid - it was supposed to make money. The ice rink is supposed to make money. The Guildford Spectrum centre is a full-blown leisure centre positioned to take advantage of many roads and has lots of parking. Financially, it's done quite well. This year it is estimated to lose Guildford council around £392,000, which isn't that bad on a near £6 million turnover and it does supply a huge range of leisure activities. Guildfordians seem happy to pay the small subsidy and they are working hard to get it into the black. Are you seriously suggesting that enough people will follow the ice hockey team and the basketball team to make them and the venue viable? And are you suggesting that people will go to Black Rock just because it's in a tourist town? There has been pressure from interest groups to put an ice rink on the site for years. If they were prepared to pay for it and pay any losses, fine. Let's see the figures. Unfortunately, they won't be in the planning application. If the scheme is passed because it's progressive and then fails, who picks up the pieces? I doubt the ice hockey team or the basketball team will have the resources to do so, even if they wanted to. To repeat, it's not just about the planning process. It's about business, who pays and what's reasonable. Waiting until a planning application is in before commenting on a scheme is often waiting until it's too late. Oh, and people really should declare if they have an interest in a scheme like this. For the record, I don't, for or against. I've just lived here for 20 years and want the best for my chosen home town.

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Paul, Brighton Seafront says...
8:28pm Thu 13 Sep 07

I am not missing the point at all. Let's see if this has been addressed before writing it off!

What I was pointing out was that the Ice Hockey and Basketball will provide a steady stream of income. They are guaranteed to play there and attract crowds during the week and so on. That is only a small part of the development. In your original statement you stated that we would not need two ice rinks, intimating that this was the sole purpose of the development.

I was suggesting that there is a large turnover of people in this city, as opposed to the other settlements you mentioned and Black Rock will benefit from new visitors.

I do not have a vested interest in the development. Assuming the project is viable (how do we know it isn't until it is up and running?) and the transport issues have been addressed, then I think it will be a very exciting development for our city, plus some much needed affordable housing.

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James, Brighton says...
11:51pm Thu 13 Sep 07

Fella`s dont get het up about the Ice rink,over the last 15 years a number of Ice rinks have been planned but none built,Remember you are talking about the town who allowed the West Pier to rot away.

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Simon James, Hove says...
12:06pm Wed 21 Nov 07

The idea for an ice rink to be located at Black Rock is proving to be difficult because the travelling infrastructure is insufficient even with a crazy idea of the monorail. An ice rink is definitely an essential part of any great city and we must have one.

So if anyone had any sense there would be a major sports arena at the King Alfred with a full size 50 metre swimming pool and a full size ice rink side by side. It is widely known that an ice rink creates excess heat that is perfectly ideal to be used to heat a swimming pool and thats a fact. Thats how other countries do it, by building them together. This is not rocket science!

Also the other massive advantage is that Hove Station is 5 minutes up the road and the current council must open their eyes and not be blind to this Perfect Solution on all counts, and the benefits to the city really would prove huge to this side of the city.

The King Alfred project currently fails short of the duty and all the expectations of our city folk.

It is stated by Karis designers that the new King Alfred will be a comprehensive sports and leisure facility which includes integration with a new city wide strategy for the public realm in Brighton and Hove. Whatever that means? but it seems like hollow words to detract us all from what will really be created which is a token gesture of an underwhelming leisure centre .

To provide a 25 metre length pool will be insufficient for events, training or professional competitions, so with the Olympics around the corner I do not see many medallists from Brighton.

Also the fact that the 25 metre pool has been designed to be covered over and used for other events is definitely the proof to a lack of commitment to it being permanently open.

The other pools are child orientated and there appears to be no diving pool either.

I will not mention what my thoughts are on the 451 unaffordable holiday and second homes planned for the site at this point, (while we have a national housing shortage).

If the Gehry building could be stopped it should be stopped and that any fine that is imposed should be offset directly to the Political Party who was in the council when they were under the influence. I believe it will cost the city more if it goes ahead and everyone involved in this fiasco should be held fully accountable for the disaster that is now the future of Brighton & Hove village (city)

The Big Question: Should a new plan for the King Alfred be drawn up for the perfect solution or are we really stuck with the disaster that will become?

The idea for an ice rink to be located at Black Rock is proving to be difficult because the travelling infrastructure is insufficient even with a crazy idea of the monorail. An ice rink is definitely an essential part of any great city and we must have one. So if anyone had any sense there would be a major [bold]sports arena at the King Alfred[/bold] with a full size 50 metre swimming pool and a full size ice rink side by side. It is widely known that an ice rink creates excess heat that is perfectly ideal to be used to heat a swimming pool and thats a fact. Thats how other countries do it, by building them together. This is not rocket science! Also the other massive advantage is that [bold]Hove Station[/bold] is 5 minutes up the road and the current council must open their eyes and not be blind to this [bold]Perfect Solution[/bold] on all counts, and the benefits to the city really would prove huge to this side of the city. The King Alfred project currently fails short of the duty and all the expectations of our city folk. It is stated by Karis designers that the new King Alfred will be a comprehensive sports and leisure facility which includes integration with a new city wide strategy for the public realm in Brighton and Hove. Whatever that means? but it seems like hollow words to detract us all from what will really be created which is a token gesture of an [bold]underwhelming leisure centre[/bold] . To provide a 25 metre length pool will be insufficient for events, training or professional competitions, so with the Olympics around the corner I do not see many medallists from Brighton. Also the fact that the 25 metre pool has been designed to be covered over and used for other events is definitely the proof to a lack of commitment to it being permanently open. The other pools are child orientated and there appears to be no diving pool either. I will not mention what my thoughts are on the 451 unaffordable holiday and second homes planned for the site at this point, (while we have a national housing shortage). If the Gehry building could be stopped it should be stopped and that any fine that is imposed should be offset directly to the Political Party who was in the council when they were under the influence. I believe it will cost the city more if it goes ahead and everyone involved in this fiasco should be held fully accountable for the disaster that is now the future of Brighton & Hove village (city) The Big Question: Should a new plan for the King Alfred be drawn up for the perfect solution or are we really stuck with the disaster that will become?

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