Brighton Marina plans thrown out by council (From The Argus)

If anyone wants an idea of the loss of the seafront view, see

http://savebrighton.
com/imagesthatlie.ht
ml

This development was no right and needs amendment.

Dear Brighton seafront NIMBY'S,
THE SEAFRONT DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU!
Most people in Brighton don't even have a sea view, let alone a cliff view!
Brighon seafront belongs to all Brighton and Hove inhabitants and the silent majority WANTED these plans to go ahead!
To reject a massive improvement and 800 jobs just because it will spoil the view for a few miserable nimby's is madness!
NOTHING get's done in the city and when we have people willing to invest, create jobs, we just turn them down.
Talk about "saving" Brighton! Good joke, just like the shabby Marina is at the moment! An ugly supermarket, plastic palm trees and nobody there except at weekends! Now please wake up and start moving forward!

NIMBYS, Rich people. I am tired of hearing this - get a life! This has nothing to do with the objections to the X-plore Planning Application. The plans were a complete overdevelopment of a cramped site below sea level with the view to making as much money as possible and then walking way with the profits and leaving those in the Marina and affected areas to deal with the damage. Brighton Marina is a Marina and this fact should be incorporated into any future development. This is a great opportunity to produce an award-winning development in sympathy with the surroundings which will create another jewel in Brighton's crown. To create jobs and housing is definitely the aim as well - Essential Workers need affordable homes to buy but let them be livable - rooms below Council minimum standards, @25% with no natural daylight etc. will create a ghetto not a place where people want to live and visit. Serious concerns have been aired as to Emergency access/Evacuation, flooding, inadequate infrastucture. traffic gridlock (one way in and one way out)and the build above the cliff height would be against the Brighton Marina Act which was passed to protect the area from inappropriate future development. If no-one can get into the site by car - and believe me there is traffic grid lock at weekends and in the holidays at present and that is before the approved Brunswick development is built - the businesses on the Marina will suffer. Access by bus is very good and the undercliff provides safe cycle access but the majority of visitors come by car. The high rental costs for the commercial area at present and the financial situation I believe have caused empty shops not because people don't visit the Marina. The bars and restaurants are packed at weekends and in the summer season as is Brighton itself. We worked hard to buy a flat in the Marina, we are not NIMBYS!!!

waterloo wrote:
NIMBYS, Rich people. I am tired of hearing this - get a life! This has nothing to do with the objections to the X-plore Planning Application. The plans were a complete overdevelopment of a cramped site below sea level with the view to making as much money as possible and then walking way with the profits and leaving those in the Marina and affected areas to deal with the damage. Brighton Marina is a Marina and this fact should be incorporated into any future development. This is a great opportunity to produce an award-winning development in sympathy with the surroundings which will create another jewel in Brighton's crown. To create jobs and housing is definitely the aim as well - Essential Workers need affordable homes to buy but let them be livable - rooms below Council minimum standards, @25% with no natural daylight etc. will create a ghetto not a place where people want to live and visit. Serious concerns have been aired as to Emergency access/Evacuation, flooding, inadequate infrastucture. traffic gridlock (one way in and one way out)and the build above the cliff height would be against the Brighton Marina Act which was passed to protect the area from inappropriate future development. If no-one can get into the site by car - and believe me there is traffic grid lock at weekends and in the holidays at present and that is before the approved Brunswick development is built - the businesses on the Marina will suffer. Access by bus is very good and the undercliff provides safe cycle access but the majority of visitors come by car. The high rental costs for the commercial area at present and the financial situation I believe have caused empty shops not because people don't visit the Marina. The bars and restaurants are packed at weekends and in the summer season as is Brighton itself. We worked hard to buy a flat in the Marina, we are not NIMBYS!!!

NIMBYs and rich people with views have everything to do with the objections - I was there yesterday and these were exactly the people I came across (and most were exceptionally intimidating and rude to me as a supporter). I'm afraid you are living in a dream world. You may have your ideal for the Marina but it's very different to what the Council policy would ever allow a developer to achieve there. Developers have to bow down to local policy at the end of the day. Explore Living spent £10million to get a 'no'. How many other developers will want to take the same risk? NONE. If you had bothered to do your homework on Explore Living you would see how community driven they are - their corporate social responsibility is second to none in the property world. I feel utterly let down by the leader of this Council who clearly had a party line for her colleagues on the planning committee. Where will the affordable housing stock come from exactly? Perhaps we can all join the leader in Rottingdean where we can all live in a lovely three bed house with a 'view' and a garden. Ideal worlds! This is the real world.

Brighton and Hove City Council's planning committee were right I think to reject the controversial plans for the building of a further 1,300 flats and shops at Brighton Marina. The protesters who have celebrated a muted victory are not against development, but it must be appropriate for the marina which I think is a sensible position to take. The current plans were not in my view. Like those for Hove seafront, which recently collapsed, they would have spoilt the look and appearance of the area. The developers should now go away and rethink what is good for the marina and surrounding area. Although some councillors are disappointed feeling a great opportunity for the site and area has been lost, I am sure a solution to satisfy all can be found with further thought and consultation.

Bennn wrote:
Dear Brighton seafront NIMBY'S, THE SEAFRONT DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU! Most people in Brighton don't even have a sea view, let alone a cliff view! Brighon seafront belongs to all Brighton and Hove inhabitants and the silent majority WANTED these plans to go ahead! To reject a massive improvement and 800 jobs just because it will spoil the view for a few miserable nimby's is madness! NOTHING get's done in the city and when we have people willing to invest, create jobs, we just turn them down. Talk about "saving" Brighton! Good joke, just like the shabby Marina is at the moment! An ugly supermarket, plastic palm trees and nobody there except at weekends! Now please wake up and start moving forward!

Sounds like there is a lot of bad feeling and obvious jealousy on this forum towards people that have a little more money than themselves. How much money someone has in the bank has nothing to do with it.

I certainly do not have money in the bank but object to these plans because it's simply over development. I am not some "NIMBY" that stands in the way of progress and have suppoted previous plans to develop the marina and other sites around Brighton. But this is a monstrocity that should NEVER be approved in it's current form. Any development that comes above the clifftop should never be considered. Decades ago (probably before Harwood and Bennn were born) the marina act was implemented to prevent this very thing from happening, for the very reasons that the objectors have stated. What is the point of the marina act, when it can be ignored or re-written whenever developers choose. This development WOULD DRAMATICALLY change the views, not just from the houses at the top of the clifftop, but it would destroy the views from Brighton looking eastwards.

Let's have a sensible redevelopment plan for the marina. It's not that difficult to design something that simply does not exceed the height of the cliffs.

Regardless of whether you are for or against this scheme, the outcome shows a failure of planning issues in B&H. Council officers apparently endorsed the scheme but councillors did not approve of it. Look at the waste of time and money by the council and the developer. The council produced a local plan running to 267 pages and yet it fails to give proper guidance to developers. B&H Council needs to get its house in order.

Also I must make this point to the 'Bennn's', 'LA77's', and 'Harwoods' of this forum. They have a lot to say about the motivation of the objectors, but they should think a little harder about the motivation of the developers. Explore living are not 'working class heroes' who are there to create jobs. Explore Living's motivation was 100% about making hundreds of millions of pounds from property sales. Do you really think they care about creating jobs? Wake up!

Once the building process has finished there will not be 800 more jobs than there are down there at the moment. Especially when you take away the amount of people that currently work in Asda, the cinema etc that will lose thier jobs while the development takes place. Not unless every one of the new residents employs a cleaner!

Me thinks Mr Bennn you may be one of the 20 student "supporters" paid to be in the public gallery by the developers agents!!

This really makes me angry. .
Through some kind of flawed parochial mentality, the Conservatives seem to oppose any development of significant scale. They are synonymous with nimbys, traditional stuffiness, and a horrible, pompous fascination with keeping things 'just as they are'.
This is totally incongruent with the (alleged)spirit of Brighton, and a continuation could turn the city into a development Pompei, populated by self-satisfied, tea guzzlers. Anyone with ambition or enthusiasm will go elsewhere.
I urge anyone who feels the same, and either didn't vote - or voted for the Conservatives last time, to reconsider doing so next time. Labour, for all their flaws, are a far more youthful and progressive party.
This wouldn't happen in any other country, but hopefully this will be approved on appeal.
I can almost see the bloated faces, and smug, reserved back slapping

Quite right mbobbyb! Good talking!
As for you MrPresident, why are you talking about money??? I never mentionned the words "rich people", I only spoke about Nimbys. Do you think all Nimbys are rich????
And you are wrong about the jobs. Not only would the project have created hundreds of jobs during construction, it would have also ment HUNDREDS more inhabitants, living in the Marina and spending there money there, in the NEW shops that were going to be built. Also, Asda was not going to be closed down, it was going to get bigger, creating even MORE jobs. And what is all this rubbish about the people in the Cinema losing there jobs??? The cinema is in the car park, and they are nor touching it! Do you think the Marina is going to be shut durig construction???? The cinema will stay and attract more clients once the buildings are up, the Asda store in going to get bigger, new shops are going to be created, more people will be spending there money there and visitors will come back because the place will be more attractive. At the moment shops are closing down there, there is nobody around except at week-ends and the whole place is looking worse than ever! If you want it to stay that way fine mate! Or why don't you come up with a proposal, plans and a lot of money? Nothing gets done in Brighton and nothing will ever get done because of people like you that wish to keep things "as they are".

This is what was said at the meeting;

“Clearly the marina needs some sort of regeneration but gross overdevelopment isn’t the way forward.”

Quite right!

Mr Bennn

Me still thinks you are in the employ of the developers??? You would appreciate how ridiculous your argument and this plan was otherwise!!!

Consider this:
2069 people signed the petition presented by Councillor David Smith and over 500 sent letters and emails to the Council objecting to the application.
That is obviously more than a few NIMBYs. In fact the objectors could muster more than 2,500 supporters from all walks of life.

I am a socialist but not the same type as the three Labour Councillors who it seems will jump into bed with any developer who will promise affordable housing irrespective of the size of apartments and location. It seemed they were prepared to accept the massive development and let the next generation live with the consequences of overcrowding.

The objectors want development but of a suitable scale.
and with more social infrastructure i.e. a decent school, a doctors surgery and sunlit spaces for kids to play.

Dear Earl Grey,
OK, 2069 people signed the petition. 500 sent letters. Don't forger that there are 250 000 inhabitants in Brighton and Hove!!! That means 247 000 people DIDN'T sign the petition becuase:
A) They didn't give a s##t
B) They approved the plans
C They had not even heard of the proposals

Anway, the silent majority WAS NOT against the proposals and 2500 people DO NOT represent the whole of Brighton and Hove.
2500 people is nothing in a city the size of Brighton and Hove. I respect your views but don't start thinking that everybody in the city was against these plans because if so you would have been more that 30 in front of the City Hall yesterday!
And please Eastwood get real, get serious about this, we are talking about the future of Brighton and Hove! I don't know a singls person from the developers team, I am just a simple Kempt Town resident who loves Brighton, belives in Brighton and wants the city to start moving forward. Everybody knows that nothing gets done in the city! It's time to move on now!

Harwood

If you could only read you would understand that I said 20 supporters employed by the developer not that you were in your 20's!!

Your arguments are as ridiculous as the developers statement that concrete tower blocks would enhance worthless cliff views?

The sea and cliff views are free to everyone! Most marina residents do not have sea views!

Why if this is such a quality development would it lead to any loss of value to any existing property.

In actual fact projections indicate that 2 bedroom flats would start at 300k more than the current 220k.

So if the issue was nimby house values the scheme would be welcomed.

The fact is some of us care about Brighton, care about future generations, care about quality and remember the nightmare of 60's tower block social problems!!!

There is a lot of snarling swagger passed off as comment here. Most of these posts show a complete lack of any knowledge whatsoever of the details of the planning application content. The fact that people don't usually travel to places just to admire the tower blocks and eat a burger and chips has gone over your heads too.

The jobs are only in construction. Where would the 4-6,000 new residents work if all that is planned got built?

One post refers to poor planning policy and that is absolutely on the money. The Marina is not a designated site for sports in The local plan or even for serious marine related stuff like sailing schools, naval training, whateve. But it is the 3rd largest marina in Europe.

Housing can go anywhere. The sea is a natural resource that is not earning the city the money it should.

Cut the swagger boys and start thinking.

the only jobs that were to be created were short term construction and then low paid retail work etc. who then need affordable housing exascerbating the problem. we need more high paid work to allow people to afford their own homes and not have to go off to london everyday to work. we need to encourage big business with big bucks not more piddly little shops and cafes, encouraging low paid workers who expect us to house them.

Marinas are usually rich playgrounds, not tacky theme parks with boxy flats, lets have some fancy apartments and flash designer shops and a helipad, the i 360 should have been built here too, so there is something to go to the marina for and get the traffic away from kings road.

Flat Mat wrote:
This is what was said at the meeting;

“Clearly the marina needs some sort of regeneration but gross overdevelopment isn’t the way forward.”

Quite right!

i agree with flat mat. development is needed but not to the detriment of the whole place. high rise blocks are not the way forward, neither are 1300 extra homes. a more modest regeneration would be appropriate, but i do think asda should be kept. all the people who live there will need somewhere to shop, and asda seems the logical choice. maybe an upgraded store would be good, or are the locals more in need of m&s.(this is not just any marina, this is an m&s marina!!!) maybe a broader range of shops could turn it into a mini-town on its own.

For goodness sake, let's get a forward thinking council! Once again those stuck in the 20th century wish to see Brighton crumbling to pieces and left in the past. Someone please get a grip and bring Brighton into the 21st Century! Why is Brighton the 'city' (I use the term loosely) that likes to say no? The only thing that gets a yes is more and more busses which just clog up the short-sighted road system!

Bennn wrote:
Quite right mbobbyb! Good talking! As for you MrPresident, why are you talking about money??? I never mentionned the words "rich people", I only spoke about Nimbys. Do you think all Nimbys are rich???? And you are wrong about the jobs. Not only would the project have created hundreds of jobs during construction, it would have also ment HUNDREDS more inhabitants, living in the Marina and spending there money there, in the NEW shops that were going to be built. Also, Asda was not going to be closed down, it was going to get bigger, creating even MORE jobs. And what is all this rubbish about the people in the Cinema losing there jobs??? The cinema is in the car park, and they are nor touching it! Do you think the Marina is going to be shut durig construction???? The cinema will stay and attract more clients once the buildings are up, the Asda store in going to get bigger, new shops are going to be created, more people will be spending there money there and visitors will come back because the place will be more attractive. At the moment shops are closing down there, there is nobody around except at week-ends and the whole place is looking worse than ever! If you want it to stay that way fine mate! Or why don't you come up with a proposal, plans and a lot of money? Nothing gets done in Brighton and nothing will ever get done because of people like you that wish to keep things "as they are".

Actually, if you actually bother to read my posts you'll see that I am not against progress and will support any sensible redevelopment plan for the marina. I did not mean to imply that you personally mentioned rich people but you were one of the strangely angry voices. Due to your apparent anger over this issue I do have to question your motives and whether you have a personal attachment to this. By the way, of course ASDA would have to close while the new buildings on the site of the store were being built. They weren't going to build the new skyscraper on top of it. They would have to knock the old building down first. As for the cinema I merely used it as an example of the businesses that will be affected like ASDA. This was a bad example and I apologise for it.

Once again, I will support any sensible plan. You were also asking me to come up with a proposal. If they want to employ me to help design it I'll be very happy to.

I still do not understand your point that this would make the marina more attractive as this would have the opposite effect. I do not see the attraction of blocks of flats, which would make up the vast majority of the site. The site needs improving but not by building hundreds and hundreds of flats.

Dear MrPresident
I appreciate your sensible reply.
You know, I do not think the plans were perfect, but I do belive that they would have helped the whole place improve, and it could only have looked better than it does now.
Also, even if a majority of the jobs were for construction, it still ment 800 new jobs for Brighton during the recession. Maybe by the time the buildings were up we would have been out of this mess. Building societies are closing everywhere, to give these people a job during the recession still seems far more important to me than a building blocking the cliff view.
People complained about the harbour development in Portsmouth too, but they just got on with it and the place is 1000 times more attractive now.
On the other Marina story, somebody commented that Brighton Marina is not Venice. Quite right! The place is a joke at the moment and does need massive improvement. Plans will never be perfect and will never please eveyone, but at some point you need to move on, especially during a recession!

The problem lies with the fact that there is a real dichotomy in Brighton and Hove. Lots of young (if not in age, then at least in spirit), creative, ambitious people, on one hand; and on the other, a much smaller group of very proactive, stuck in the past conservative types, who lack any kind of verve, vision or dynamism.
Unfortunately the current administration seem to be strongly, and undemocratically aligned with the latter, rather than the former.
Its pointless trying to argue with them, they will not be convinced and will staunchly stick to their guns like hot cups of early grey, as they gaze upon their 'oblique' sea views over Asda. However; what's clearly needed is an administration who represent the far too impassive younger members of Brighton, who really want their city to move forwards.
So' all you moaners and groaners, should actually get voting, and maybe make a bit of a noise! otherwise the narrow-minded 'nimby' types will continue to have their way.
More pertinently: will any serious developer want to touch brighton after this?. I doubt it...
What a shambles. Other cities must be looking in our direction and laughing.

If square high rise concrete blocks crammed into to a small space are thought to be creative and dynamic by the younger members of Brighton, Then God help future generations who wont be able to see the sea for tower blocks!!!

It's inevitable that some high rise buildings will have to be built at some point in the future. The population's expanding and 'the only way is up' due to the the city being hemmed in by the downs. The alternative is to continue to ram more people into the limited housing stock that is available.
Obviously, a huge waft of blocks on the seafront would be too much, but a few sensible buildings is not over the top. Especially if they're considered and approved by planning officers.
Sensible leadership is needed.