Weather too cold for salt to take effect, say council (From The Argus)
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Weather too cold for salt to take effect, say council
11:17am Monday 2nd February 2009 in
Brighton and Hove City Council said roads had been gritted on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and between 11pm and 3am overnight.
It said temperatures had dropped too far for the salt to have an effect.
A spokesman told The Argus people can use table salt to grit their drives and paths, or use the 300 grit bins around the city.
People are being asked to visit vulnerable or elderly neighbours to check they are all right.
The council was planning to begin ploughing snow from the roads this morning.
The Argus is building your comprehensive up-to-date guide on the snow chaos sweeping the county.
If a road is closed or you spot a crash, we want to hear about it.
Tell us your stories by calling 01273 544519 or leave your comments below.
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Comments(53)
feline1
says...
11:26am Mon 2 Feb 09
According to the met office, the temperature was no lower than minus 2 degrees celcius,
which is not "too cold for salt to work".
Security word: lies-fail
Tye
says...
11:26am Mon 2 Feb 09
I do get the impression there are a lot of VERY sTUPID people out there who think that if the roads gritted then they can drive in a "normal" fashion and If there is a problem its down to "The F..... Council" Glad to see them actually pointing out that salt is not the solver of all ills - after all If the\sea freezes (and for the stupid - the sea IS salty:)
leedsnowfan
says...
11:40am Mon 2 Feb 09
monkey-moo
says...
11:42am Mon 2 Feb 09
MrPresident
says...
11:45am Mon 2 Feb 09
Dave At Home
says...
12:02pm Mon 2 Feb 09
code word heat wave
Fight Back
says...
12:04pm Mon 2 Feb 09
What IS amazing is the idiots out in their cars - some hadn't even cleared their lights of snow. Many didn't have their lights on and almost all were travelling too fast and too close to each other. The outside lane going west was covered in snow and yet there were idiots still travelling in it. Yet if they crash they will blame anyone but themselves. Maybe they will kill a few of themselves - the City could do with a few less selfish idiots.
Jim BB
says...
12:10pm Mon 2 Feb 09
NoWaySeriously
says...
12:16pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Get off your arses, council. What am I paying for? I wonder if you can sue if you fall over and break your hip? Lets find out... £2m compensation coming my way ;)
mark 62
says...
12:20pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Jim BB wrote:always thought salt melted the snow? in george st shops had used salt and it had melted?? anyway you moaners, get out some wellys and enjoy the snow!
I'm confused - salting the roads doesn't work but we should use salt to clear our paths...
The Garden Slug
says...
12:20pm Mon 2 Feb 09
ON Klondyke 225
Call Mr plow thats my name that name again is MR Plow
feline1
says...
12:34pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Security word: salt-twits
Tye
says...
12:42pm Mon 2 Feb 09
monkey-moo wrote:Typical!
The Council ARE NOT doing the job we pay them for. We pay Council tax, road tax, and every other tax to help deal with these problems. We have known the snow was coming for 2 days now and not enough was done. It gets cold everywhere else in Europe and they seem to manage fine, because their councils and government prepare for these things. They don't have to close every road in the area, close schools or send people home from work!!! Its not like its never snowed in this country before!
So what would you do IF you were in charge?
How would things be different?
As I've said before in Europe things DO shut down in really bad weather
Drivers change over to winter tyres
have yiu done that monkey-moo?
Don't forget that Councils are scared that parents will sue If little Johny is hurt on the way to school
Tom Nicholls
says...
12:53pm Mon 2 Feb 09
monkey-moo
says...
1:01pm Mon 2 Feb 09
As a responsible driver, YES, i have changed to winter tyres...have you?
My parents live in the Austrian Alps and i visit them a lot. It is illegal not to have them on your car during winter in the rest of Europe. Also, i have never seen any roads close due to snow, and the airport has only ever closed from high winds....not snow. So if they can manage it why cant we?
But i guess youre stupid enough to pay your taxes and just except it...? right?
sweeper180
says...
1:16pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Fight Back
says...
1:27pm Mon 2 Feb 09
monkey-moo wrote:And I suppose you've gone out and brought snow chains ??? The council would have been slammed if they had spent the money required to combat a servere winter and are now slammed for not doing enough. They can't win. There's no satisfying idiots like you. Just enjoy the extra time off ( possibly with your children if you have any which makes it even better ).
The Council ARE NOT doing the job we pay them for. We pay Council tax, road tax, and every other tax to help deal with these problems. We have known the snow was coming for 2 days now and not enough was done. It gets cold everywhere else in Europe and they seem to manage fine, because their councils and government prepare for these things. They don't have to close every road in the area, close schools or send people home from work!!! Its not like its never snowed in this country before!
Oh - the council hasn't closed the roads - it's just most of us aren't stupid enough to try and drive them. It's wonderful out at the moment - no traffic - people walking everywhere - stunning scenery - people having FUN. You clearly don't know what that word means !!!
Jim BB
says...
2:01pm Mon 2 Feb 09
mark 62 wrote:I was just highlighting the conflicting messages they're sending out - the roads are covered in snow because salt doesn't work but we should use salt to clear our paths because it does work - hence the confusion!
Jim BB wrote: I'm confused - salting the roads doesn't work but we should use salt to clear our paths...always thought salt melted the snow? in george st shops had used salt and it had melted?? anyway you moaners, get out some wellys and enjoy the snow!
For those who don't need to get anywhere today, the snow is fantastic, haven't seen it like this since the 1970s.
My wife was also delighted to have 6 inches overnight - and there's more snow on the way!
Tye
says...
2:08pm Mon 2 Feb 09
monkey-moo wrote:I admit I didn't change my tyres BUT I do have a 4x4 and the tyres are M&S.
Well Tye, As a responsible driver, YES, i have changed to winter tyres...have you? My parents live in the Austrian Alps and i visit them a lot. It is illegal not to have them on your car during winter in the rest of Europe. Also, i have never seen any roads close due to snow, and the airport has only ever closed from high winds....not snow. So if they can manage it why cant we? But i guess youre stupid enough to pay your taxes and just except it...? right?
I' also lived in Geneva for about six months (around 6 years ago) and the airport there closed 2 or 3 times in VERY bad weather.
What I've noticed in this country is all the lorries jacknifing and blocking the roads and then the "snow" or "councils" being blamed, cannot recall as many lorries around Geneva but I guess there must have been as many?
Did they just park up or did they have winter tyres?
Tye
says...
2:11pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Scoomer
says...
2:31pm Mon 2 Feb 09
feline1
says...
2:32pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Tye wrote:Well as I said, Tye, the truth of what you say can clearly be seen by the fact that the SEA IS FROZEN.
Forgot to mention that the temperature is always measured in the shade (to counter the effect of the sun - I know thats most important today:) BUT its also out of the wind and several feet up in the air to counter the wind chill factor and the ground effect so -2c my well be -7 or more and how many or (few) degrees does the water freezing temp change when affected by salt?
Oh wait! It isn't! lol
Security word: loon-pant
GreenGrocer
says...
2:41pm Mon 2 Feb 09
I'm off out in the lovely snow to build more snowmen, and I'm going to name some of them after the moaners on here and throw snowballs at them! Mwah ha ha ha!
Enjoy life you moaning old f*rts!
security-word getA-life
monkey-moo
says...
2:52pm Mon 2 Feb 09
If you had learnt to read, you would see that I have snow tyres fitted to my car! (but yes, i do have snow chains in the boot as i am often in the Alps).
....And the part about enjoying the time the time off....well I'm sorry i cant do that, as i am a fire-fighter and have been busy cutting IDIOTS LIKE YOU out of their cars. Caused by a combination of bad driving, lack of knowledge of how to drive in these conditions AND the lack of preparation by our council in keeping the roads safe.
Please try and read the post next time!!!
lizliz
says...
2:52pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Anyways, it is only just about a foot of snow and everything shuts down. If we adopted this approach in Canada the whole country would not function for half the year! I think everyone just has to remember that snow in Brighton is rare and of course the Council isn't going to pump money into gathering resources for a unlikely event, such as this.
mr punch
says...
3:10pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Scoomer
says...
3:28pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Fight Back
says...
3:34pm Mon 2 Feb 09
monkey-moo wrote:Firstly, your reply to Tye wasn't there when I hit the Add Comment button but due to the slowness of the web site today it got displayed after your reply. Secondly, maybe you should learn to read - I made quite clear that I thought people shouldn't be driving so, thanks, but you won't be cutting me out of my car !
Well Fight Back,Hove,
If you had learnt to read, you would see that I have snow tyres fitted to my car! (but yes, i do have snow chains in the boot as i am often in the Alps).
....And the part about enjoying the time the time off....well I'm sorry i cant do that, as i am a fire-fighter and have been busy cutting IDIOTS LIKE YOU out of their cars. Caused by a combination of bad driving, lack of knowledge of how to drive in these conditions AND the lack of preparation by our council in keeping the roads safe.
Please try and read the post next time!!!
So try and read the post next time !
I'd rather the council spent more money on key services that are needed ALL year round than spend money on preparing for a bad winter which MAY happen. After all this is the worst winter for 18 years - that would have been 17 years worth of wasted money so far !!! The answer is simple - if it's too dangerous to drive - don't !!!!!!!!
Ironic that a fireman complains about taxes. It wasn't so long ago that you were all on strike because you didn't like the idea of having to do a full weeks shifts in a pattern that prevented you having a second job !!! Most of us don't get that luxury nor do we get the salary firemen get.
baldseagull
says...
3:42pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Salt lowers the freezing point of water if it is dissolved in it.
when snow falls in lower temperatures it tends to be drier and does not dissolve the salt so easily.
Conor
says...
4:32pm Mon 2 Feb 09
I thought that was a bad idea. A snow covered path is no risk to visitors. But if you try and clear it and make an arse of the job, you could be legally liable for any resulting injuries due to a patch of ice, etc.
Tye
says...
4:33pm Mon 2 Feb 09
monkey-moo wrote:i know you enjoy slagging "the council" off here BUT have you ever done anything about it?
The Council ARE NOT doing the job we pay them for. We pay Council tax, road tax, and every other tax to help deal with these problems. We have known the snow was coming for 2 days now and not enough was done. It gets cold everywhere else in Europe and they seem to manage fine, because their councils and government prepare for these things. They don't have to close every road in the area, close schools or send people home from work!!! Its not like its never snowed in this country before!
complained to the Council?
Voted in an election?
Noticed the BBC this morning going on about Northern france/holland effected BUT gave up as it doesn't make a good story?
PS Do you think its "the councils" fault drivers drive as though it was dry and sunny, make a 4 inch hole directly in front of them or not ut their lights on, or drive in a t shirt, no money, no petrol
all I'm trying to do is make it cear that there are loads of issues here not JUST The Council!
Alan G Skinner
says...
4:37pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Alan G Skinner
says...
4:38pm Mon 2 Feb 09
baz123
says...
4:39pm Mon 2 Feb 09
NoWaySeriously wrote:A quick reply is no you can't sue.
This is actually a blessing; we've been walking through Hove, there's been hardly any traffic (presumable all piled up on the A27 because they can't SLOW DOWN). The only traffic we have seen has been going at about 10 miles an hour! Although, as far as I can see, there has not even been an attempt to salt anything round here and the pavements are an actual death trap. Get off your arses, council. What am I paying for? I wonder if you can sue if you fall over and break your hip? Lets find out... £2m compensation coming my way ;)
P. Pooler
says...
4:49pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Early this morning, with difficulty I finally managed to get over Falmer Road to the bypass, only to find it closed and the police diverting all westbound traffic towards Brighton. Over 2 hours from leaving home, I finally reached Patcham roundabout to head north up the A23. It then took me only 45 minutes to get to the other side of Horsham. That in itself is indication enough of the incompetence of the highways department at the council, because other local authorities managed to keep traffic flowing on their roads, despite the same conditions that Brighton experienced.
Let me now address some offensive and dare I say ill-informed comments that were posted on the Argus website. Salt is normally effective down to somewhere near minus 20 degrees and we experienced nothing like that! Granted that salt alone is not the answer and with a heavy snowfall ploughing is also necessary. But, the snowfall around Brighton was not that deep to render the salt totally ineffective. And, if so, what was wrong with the snow ploughs? Why were they not called out?
Brighton Council seems rather more obsessed with creating bus lanes and all manner of parking schemes, road restrictions, markings and cycle lanes. Given that, I suspect that the budget, will, energy and management are lacking to tackle community basics like keeping the roads gritted and ploughed
Fight Back
says...
4:59pm Mon 2 Feb 09
P. Pooler wrote:No sympathy - you shouldn't have been on the road !!!
The lack of gritting of Brighton roads overnight was an absolute disgrace. There was light snow earlier and, by the time I returned home via Falmer Road last night it was already a bit treacherous. It was apparent even then that the road urgently required thorough gritting. I very much doubt it was properly done.
Early this morning, with difficulty I finally managed to get over Falmer Road to the bypass, only to find it closed and the police diverting all westbound traffic towards Brighton. Over 2 hours from leaving home, I finally reached Patcham roundabout to head north up the A23. It then took me only 45 minutes to get to the other side of Horsham. That in itself is indication enough of the incompetence of the highways department at the council, because other local authorities managed to keep traffic flowing on their roads, despite the same conditions that Brighton experienced.
Let me now address some offensive and dare I say ill-informed comments that were posted on the Argus website. Salt is normally effective down to somewhere near minus 20 degrees and we experienced nothing like that! Granted that salt alone is not the answer and with a heavy snowfall ploughing is also necessary. But, the snowfall around Brighton was not that deep to render the salt totally ineffective. And, if so, what was wrong with the snow ploughs? Why were they not called out?
Brighton Council seems rather more obsessed with creating bus lanes and all manner of parking schemes, road restrictions, markings and cycle lanes. Given that, I suspect that the budget, will, energy and management are lacking to tackle community basics like keeping the roads gritted and ploughed
William2
says...
5:32pm Mon 2 Feb 09
The roads were quite bad, but far from impassable if the driver uses care and common sense.
Unfortunately, the usual idiots were out in force.
Many cars were still completely covered in snow, so their lights were barely visible.
Some drivers continued to drive as if it were a hot summers day - braking sharply and driving far too close to the car in front.
These people are responsible for the travel chaos that ensues, and they do not deserve to hold a licence.
I believe in compulsory re-testing for all drivers, and that should include a session on a skidpan.
monkey-moo
says...
5:34pm Mon 2 Feb 09
You just show how stupid you are!
I work a 48 hour week (which is probably more than you) that includes weekends, public holidays, christmas...etc.etc. when you are most likely at home with your family having fun.
When i am on my days off, that's exactly what i like to do. Not to mention that i need rest between my shifts...or do you not sleep in between your days at work!?
Oh..and most fire-fighters don't work a second job "because we can", they will do it because the pay is so bad, they HAVE to. Which means they end up working 80 hours a week. Doesn't sound like a luxury to me so I'm surprised you find it one!!
also, the strike was about being poorly paid, NOT shift patterns. Try and get your facts right.
Lets hope you never need us eh!?
MrPresident
says...
5:43pm Mon 2 Feb 09
MoreMikey
says...
5:44pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Scoomer wrote:Another nice one, 'Scoomer.
If the salt won't work on the snow, maybe the council could find another use for it - I'm sure we'd all be grateful if Pest Control came and sprinkled it on a certain slug...
pigletstrotters
says...
5:51pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Ringmer Rich
says...
5:52pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Mr.G
says...
6:17pm Mon 2 Feb 09
djhewens
says...
6:22pm Mon 2 Feb 09
leedsnowfan wrote:Perhaps Brighton & Hove council can get advise from other council's as always everything comes to a standstill down south (what type of grit is being used are there any snow ploughs) while i've spent many a time up in scotland where i have relatives and things just seem to keep running me and sister managed to get from Arran to Edinburgh for Hogmany with heavy snow falling why is it always the same too little too late or badly managed why do we have to pay such high prices for little service. I know the coucil say it severe but come on pull your finger out and stop making excusses...........o
more like too expensive to grit.....as it goes on all their wages!
ut
Trojandog
says...
6:26pm Mon 2 Feb 09
It is no use at all complaining that Norway, Sweden, Switzerland get snow and manage to cope. Of course they do! They KNOW that they will get heavy snow each and every year. It is therefore worth them investing in snow ploughs/blowers. The last time we had this much snow was 18 years ago. If the Govt of the day had gone out and spent £500m on the same kit it would have spent the last 18 years parked up going rusty.
We don't get this weather very often so just live with it. So what if the South shuts down for a day? The world won't come to an end if Tescos don't get a delivery or you miss your appoinment at the hairdressers. Keep an eye on the elderly and keep the hospitals etc open and ignore the rest for day.
I lived in Germany for 7 years and they have a good solution to the road clearing problem - all farmers have a snowplough that fits onto the front of their tractor. When it snows the Govt pays the farmers to go out and clear the roads. Dead simple, cheap and effective.
Conor
says...
6:39pm Mon 2 Feb 09
MrPresident wrote:But Argus readers enjoy moaning. About anything, not just snow.
Oh for god's sake people. Get a life and STOP MOANING. You couldn't get into work, so what! It's just one day. Go outside and enjoy it. Or, if you don't like snow, stay indoors and watch telly or something. JUST STOP MOANING!!!!!! The county came to a standstill because of a bit of snow. SO WHAT! It's good for the world to stop and chill out (excuse the pun) every now and again instead of everyone running around like headless chickens.
Security word cold-t1ts
djhewens
says...
6:40pm Mon 2 Feb 09
P. Pooler wrote:spot on about time they got on with the job instead of making thing's a missery not all people have the joy of being paid to stay at home (self employed) unless insured which cost's a fortune, what do we pay our taxes for and yes I do have children and had great fun sledging but that's not the point.
The lack of gritting of Brighton roads overnight was an absolute disgrace. There was light snow earlier and, by the time I returned home via Falmer Road last night it was already a bit treacherous. It was apparent even then that the road urgently required thorough gritting. I very much doubt it was properly done.
Early this morning, with difficulty I finally managed to get over Falmer Road to the bypass, only to find it closed and the police diverting all westbound traffic towards Brighton. Over 2 hours from leaving home, I finally reached Patcham roundabout to head north up the A23. It then took me only 45 minutes to get to the other side of Horsham. That in itself is indication enough of the incompetence of the highways department at the council, because other local authorities managed to keep traffic flowing on their roads, despite the same conditions that Brighton experienced.
Let me now address some offensive and dare I say ill-informed comments that were posted on the Argus website. Salt is normally effective down to somewhere near minus 20 degrees and we experienced nothing like that! Granted that salt alone is not the answer and with a heavy snowfall ploughing is also necessary. But, the snowfall around Brighton was not that deep to render the salt totally ineffective. And, if so, what was wrong with the snow ploughs? Why were they not called out?
Brighton Council seems rather more obsessed with creating bus lanes and all manner of parking schemes, road restrictions, markings and cycle lanes. Given that, I suspect that the budget, will, energy and management are lacking to tackle community basics like keeping the roads gritted and ploughed
lizliz
says...
6:50pm Mon 2 Feb 09
Scoomer wrote:Don't know where you get your info about weather in Saskatchewan from, but when I was in Saskatoon 2 weeks ago that's the temp they reported on the local and national weather forecasts. Didn't say -50 degrees was the norm, but it does happen every so often.
Lizliz, you seem to be a bit misinformed. You're right about it not being too cold here for salt to work melting the snow here in Sussex: a 10 percent salt solution freezes at -6 C, while a 20 percent solution freezes at -16 C. However, Saskatchewan isn't *nearly* as cold as you imply: the average low in January is -22.3 degrees. -50 is a record, not a norm: it hasn't been that cold since 1893!
dsvm22
says...
6:58pm Mon 2 Feb 09
mintyboy
says...
8:16pm Mon 2 Feb 09
santa claus
Scoomer
says...
8:17pm Mon 2 Feb 09
http://tinyurl.com/c
2sypx
which gets its information from their city council's own site
http://tinyurl.com/c
6bs65
Looking at the figures in more detail, it looks as if we're both partly right.
charlie the gritter
says...
10:44pm Mon 2 Feb 09
sweetpea
says...
7:54pm Tue 3 Feb 09
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