McDonald's and banks among those implicated by anti-war group (From The Argus)
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McDonald's and banks among those implicated by anti-war group
10:30pm Monday 27th April 2009 in
Protesters have drawn up a list of banks and companies they will target during an anti-arms trade protest next week.
Thousands of demonstrators are planning to descend on Brighton and Hove during the May Bank Holiday for what they describe as a “mass street party against, war, greed and militarism”.
The protest was originally planned as part of an ongoing campaign against EDO MBM/ITT, the factory on Home Farm Road in Moulsecoomb, which makes arms components.
But since the G20 events in London, increasing numbers of anarchist and anti-capitalist groups from around Britain have been planning to widen the scope of the demonstration.
This week the group behind the protest, Smash EDO, have published a map of 35 city centre businesses they say have supplied or invested in ITT, including McDonald’s, American Express, BP and Barclays Bank.
Transport to Brighton is already being organised from a number of cities, including Bath, Bristol, Cardiff, Hereford and Sheffield.
Among the list of premises on the handout, entitled “Anti-militarist map of Brighton” are the city’s police stations and Brighton and Hove City Council’s town halls in Bartholomew Square, Brighton, and Church Road, Hove.
Smash EDO claims the council refused to table a motion on whether EDO MBM/ITT should operate in the city because it was “not of interest” to local people.
They have also listed DHL Express in Newtown Road in Hove which they say delivers military components to the EDO factory.
Smash EDO organiser Andrew Beckett said the protest would be its biggest yet and the map had supplied demonstrators with a list of possible targets. He said: “This is a list of targets in the sense of places people could protest about but it doesn’t mean we will be going there and storming the buildings.
“There will be splinter groups that can go and do whatever they want. We can’t control them.
“This is a possible list of targets for police so they can get on and police them if they want to – that’s their job.”
Police and businesses are bracing themselves for organised attempts to bring the city centre to a standstill.
Ted Kemble, council cabinet member for business and enterprise said: “I won’t condone wanton violence on any business trying to go about their daily work.”
Sussex Police have warned organisers they will not allow the city to suffer the disruption witnessed in the G20 protests.
Chief Superintendent Cliff Parrott said: “We are not expecting the event to be confrontational. However, we are keen to speak with the organisers to discuss their intentions and how it can take place effectively while minimising disruption.”
A police spokeswoman said there would be a police presence from early in the day and officers would be looking for ringleaders to try to ensure the event passed peacefully.
She refused to say if police spotters who have been known to photograph protests and rallies would attend the march.
The spokeswoman confirmed that the police would not be turning protesters away from the city.
Among those expected to take part in the demo is former Page Three girl turned Liberal Democrat councillor Marina Pepper. Nicola Fisher, hit with a baton at the G20 protests, is also expected to attend.
The day of action will begin with hundreds of cyclists from the Critical Mass movement staging a slow parade outside Brighton station.
A street party will be staged in the city centre but details of the protest are being kept secret.
McDonald’s said: “We will take any and all necessary steps to protect the welfare of our customers and staff.” An American Express spokeswoman said the firm would be keeping an eye on the situation.
Brighton and Hove Council declined to comment about being a target.
THE ANTI-MILITARIST LIST OF PROTEST TARGETS
● EDO MBM/ITT factory
● Thales E-Security
● Branches of Barclays, HSBC, RBOS/Halifax and LloydsTSB
● American Express
● BP petrol stations
● McDonald’s restaurants
● DHL Express
● London and Brighton Plating Company
● The Army recruitment office
● Police stations
● Brighton and Hove City Council town halls
Comments(200)
Junglist Massive
says...
10:51pm Mon 27 Apr 09
brightongrappler
says...
11:06pm Mon 27 Apr 09
freddo
says...
11:12pm Mon 27 Apr 09
bibble
says...
11:19pm Mon 27 Apr 09
brightongrappler wrote:We don't have soldiers these days. Cuts cuts cuts.
i reckon the army recruitment office should call back 100 armed soldiers and place them outside - then we will see the real side to these soap dodging cowards.
BN1
says...
11:58pm Mon 27 Apr 09
jo w
says...
12:55am Tue 28 Apr 09
brightongrappler
says...
5:49am Tue 28 Apr 09
Jim BB
says...
6:54am Tue 28 Apr 09
I think I might just avoid walking into Brighton this weekend and stay at home instead until these idiots have left. If the ringleaders can't control them, what hope has anyone else got?
william of orange
says...
7:15am Tue 28 Apr 09
Why isn't the local Labour Party HQ on the list?...after all they are the ones that voted to start these wars!
Lil
says...
7:42am Tue 28 Apr 09
Simples?
Oh. Wait.
Yes. Wait a cotton candy picking moment there, that's hypocritical. Oh yessum.
I'd imagine a lot of people protesting are actually coming along for a good old fight and won't have much knowledge of the 'cause'. Anyway what about we go around the protester's houses and fusk them up a bit with smashed windows, baked beans through the letter box and see how they like it when someone trashes their neighbourhood?
I'm not saying Iraq or wars are justified, I'm just sick of people outside of the area coming in, taking away resources from where they're needed and trashing a place where they don't even live.
Tye
says...
8:19am Tue 28 Apr 09
freddo wrote:LOL
errr. it's May Day - a bank holiday - people generally have the day off!
Do you REALLY think for a split second that these profesional agitators and pains in the neck (or lower) have a job?
ofcourse not
Right on Brighton must have some idiots or supporters in the "dole office" as a heck of a lot of them seem to live here, scrounging, homes paid for, living by the sea - great isn't it - what recession?
what credit crisis?
lastgasp
says...
8:29am Tue 28 Apr 09
The only intelligent answer I've seen from the brownshirt brigade is that of counter demonstrating. You have the right, you are just too cowardly and lazy to use it.
As one resident who is looking forward to a good old fashioned street party, the kind this town used to be famous for I am begging the right wing morons, please, leave Town. You have failed to adapt to the spirit of Brighton. We don't want you, we don't need you. x
OP8
says...
8:43am Tue 28 Apr 09
lastgasp
says...
8:48am Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:50am Tue 28 Apr 09
There has been no violent actions by Smash EDO in Brighton... unlike the EDO & Police response to their legal demonstration.
So all this talk of "targets","violence" and "ringleaders" is just another hatchet job from the Argus & Co.
I do love all this talk about mobilising the army against protesters... and who said the Holocaust could never happen in the UK. But it does reveal that the real violent thugs in Brighton are the opponents of Smash EDO. Well done for clearing that up!
Of course, if the Israeli Air Force were killing Brightonians using EDO equipment, I'm sure the right-wing sea lions here would be a little more understanding.
Carl Bugenhagen
says...
9:06am Tue 28 Apr 09
King from Hove
says...
9:08am Tue 28 Apr 09
!!!!!!!!
OP8
says...
9:45am Tue 28 Apr 09
mark 62
says...
9:53am Tue 28 Apr 09
King from Hove wrote:you would be stopping their human rights, most of the soap dodgers love it here they park in preston park avenue, sleep in old vans and claim unemployment ... easy life.
Take photos and stop all their BENEFITS!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
bibble
says...
10:17am Tue 28 Apr 09
lastgasp wrote:Well said, lastgasp. I too have noticed those who are far too happy to have the troops out on the streets, or the police using violence against non-violent protestors.
Why is it always those who against the protests that seem to have the most violent tendencies? Soldiers against civilians? Taking away resources and trashing places were they don't live? Sounds like daily life in Iraq and Palestine. How about reading a book before you spout your ill-thought right wing propaganda?
The only intelligent answer I've seen from the brownshirt brigade is that of counter demonstrating. You have the right, you are just too cowardly and lazy to use it.
As one resident who is looking forward to a good old fashioned street party, the kind this town used to be famous for I am begging the right wing morons, please, leave Town. You have failed to adapt to the spirit of Brighton. We don't want you, we don't need you. x
It's the same mob who refer to anyone they disagree with as "extremists", failing to notice it is themselves who are extreme.
In a comment on the recent article about Gurkhas, I suggested that people who are upset should go and organise a protest. Of course, they won't. They're too lazy. All mouth and no trousers.
BBBrighton
says...
10:46am Tue 28 Apr 09
you may not agree with EDO but at least its not in some godforsaken country being staffed by kids being paid an egg for a 76hour shift.
mmm I fancy a maccie d's now
getreal1
says...
10:53am Tue 28 Apr 09
freddo
says...
11:43am Tue 28 Apr 09
johnsmith48
says...
11:49am Tue 28 Apr 09
petehobo
says...
12:01pm Tue 28 Apr 09
I'll be coming along the protest, i wont have to take a day off work, as i wont be at work on monday. Neither will my wife.
Its a peaceful protest not a violent one.
If people are coming from outside Brighton, its mainly to do with
a) the violence of the police at the g20
b) The attempts by the police to censor the anti EDO film recently, which brought the *very* local protest to national attention.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:15pm Tue 28 Apr 09
"This is the same crowd who organised the June event, which resulted in their entering the EDO company car park and damaging 5 cars, smashing factory windows and spraying graffiti on the walls."
My that is far more shocking than what EDOs products did in Gaza.
WARNING: link below shows graphic depictions of children murdered by the Israeli armed forces who have a contract with EDO/ITT:
http://azvsas.blogsp
ot.com/2009/01/more-
pictures-of-terroris
t-childrenthat.html
Is this the Brighton you want? Where a company is free to profit from killing babies?
If someone were to kill a child IN Brighton, you'd expect the full force of the law to fall on them, and you'd think that vandalising their cars was inadequate.
In fact, I get the impression if EDO were helping people kill children IN Brighton the right-wing kneejerks would be calling for a lynching.
We just want them stopped, peacefully.
Again, who are the 'violent thugs' here???
Dickens Cider
says...
12:17pm Tue 28 Apr 09
As it happens, the way they conduct themselves means I really couldn't care less. If they are a non-violent group, how come there has been trouble at every protest, as detailed above, damage and graffiti, wtf? It really is not the way to make a point.
I honestly wonder what "SMASH-EDO" actually gain from doing this. What changes as a result of the protests? What progress is made?
I have no problem with peaceful protesting whatever the cause, I may not agree with it always but I respect people's rights to do so.
I wish this group would respect our rights for a peaceful bank holiday!
johnsmith48
says...
12:29pm Tue 28 Apr 09
newbiea
says...
12:38pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Brigadier Monty
says...
12:42pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Keaton
says...
12:54pm Tue 28 Apr 09
What exactly is left-wing about protesting at the council buildings because they wont move a business based on a minorities wishes?
Why are you making a threat that counter demonstrators are too scared?
There is nothing left-wing about protesting outside an MOD office, the left believes in the need for an Army as well.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:57pm Tue 28 Apr 09
http://www.google.co
.uk/search?hl=en&cli
ent=firefox-a&rls=or
g.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3A
official&hs=BZ6&q=ED
O+Israel+contract&bt
nG=Search&meta=
I suppose ALL those news sources are liars, and they just simply made up the EDO contract with Israel for the hell of it?
These too?
http://edombmuncover
ed.wordpress.com/
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Criticism_o
f_EDO_Corporation#Pr
otest_in_the_UK
http://www.creative-
i.info/?p=4362
Maggie Thatcher
says...
1:08pm Tue 28 Apr 09
"I love the comments by Maggie Thatcher saying there has been no violence by the protesters they have broken into the building and smashed the place up what does he class that as."
I class that as the non-violent decommissioning of an illegal arms factory.
The only person hurt was one of the decommissioners.
Conversely, many protesters have been assaulted by employees of EDO and arguably the police too.
Smash EDO has never assaulted anyone.
So again. WHO are the violent thugs?
P.S. No one has threatened to smash up McDonalds or attack their staff. The only inferences have come from the Argus and the comments by anti-Smash EDO commenters.
Personally, I say if ignorant people want to kill themselves of McDonald's toxic muck, or want to be exploited by their dreadful labour practices, then let them- so long as people know exactly what they are doing.
newbiea
says...
1:12pm Tue 28 Apr 09
pancaker
says...
1:15pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Dickens Cider
says...
1:17pm Tue 28 Apr 09
I class that as the non-violent decommissioning of an illegal arms factory."
Pardon my ignorance, but how is breaking other people's property non-violent?
And what gives you the right to take it upon yourselves to decommission it?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
1:32pm Tue 28 Apr 09
The fact that no one was assaulted, and the action was intended to stop EDO from supplying the means to killing innocent people. I suppose you regard a copper kicking down a door to save a wife from being battered a violent act? So why not smashing up a machine to stop a child being torn apart with a missile?
"And what gives you the right to take it upon yourselves to decommission it?"
Because the agencies of law have failed to uphold the law.
"Two wrongs don't make a right."
Actually, committing a crime to prevent a more serious crime is perfectly legal by UK statute. The police and emergency services do it every single day. Gaining forced entry, speeding, sometimes smacking people over the head and even shooting them dead (occasionally actually killing a real criminal too!).
It's called proportionality.
johnsmith48
says...
1:55pm Tue 28 Apr 09
leedsnowfan
says...
1:57pm Tue 28 Apr 09
security word: potb-lack
SteveHove
says...
1:59pm Tue 28 Apr 09
PETE OF QUEENS PARK
says...
2:01pm Tue 28 Apr 09
TreasureIsland
says...
2:08pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
2:12pm Tue 28 Apr 09
oh come now, you really forgotten about a certain security contract?
The day I start making bomb release clips and selling them to the Israelis to kill kids with you are all welcome to come smash my house to matchwood as far as I'm concerned. And, I should be thrown in jail for accessory to murder too.
Oh taking of pots and kettles: you got any convictions for burglary yet? Remember the Raytheon 9
http://www.raytheon9
.org/
So there is case precedent for the legality of such actions.
leedsnowfan: Smash EDO have made no threats of violence. It a cobbled together hit piece.
pancaker
says...
2:46pm Tue 28 Apr 09
It'd be ironic if it wasn't so tragic.
Lawson-land
says...
2:56pm Tue 28 Apr 09
lastgasp wrote:So, where is this 'street party' taking place and what time? Shall we bring a bottle, or will you be supplying them..? What about kids will they enjoy it - or is it best to leave them at home?
The days event is a street party. What do you think Reclaim The Streets means. The only talk of violence is coming from the police and media as usual. x
davyboy
says...
3:17pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
3:31pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Diverse Technology/Market Portfolio
We enjoy an outstanding high technology reputation backed by some 60 years of international experience and capability. This has generated a broad and highly effective skill base able to address a wide range of complex challenges such as weapon interfacing systems for manned and unmanned platforms, high performance precision (scanning) motors, in-flight entertainment and performance based customer support services.
http://www.mbmtech.c
o.uk/index.htm
And I really need say nothing more about the parent company than post its homepage:
http://www.defense.i
tt.com/
EDO MBM make weapons components. So they are indisputably an arms company.
And that wouldn't change if they also made My Little Pony and ambulances too.
stickman
says...
3:48pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Oh and London and Brighton Plating will be shut on Bank Holiday Monday so you might as well give that a miss.
Don't worry though, there is a chip shop round corner where they served someone who said they supported the war in Afghanistan so I can go and smash their windows in instead if you want.
Mr. Kipling
says...
3:59pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Code word: stop-pass
GaryS9
says...
4:04pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Acheron
says...
4:23pm Tue 28 Apr 09
A few observations.
I appreciate that you feel that EDO are breaking the law. However as things stand in this country they are a legal business. They may not be to the taste of everyone, but that doesn't make them illegal. Though you may wish it, your morals are not the sole basis for the law in the same way that mine or anyone elses are. I suspect that there are a lot of things that you feel fine with morally that I don't. That doesn't give me the right to brand you a criminal etc.
As to the issue of violence at protests only coming from the police. Obviously there has been much coverage of the police action. However there was also plenty of coverage (at least down here because it was a Sussex lady involved) of violent action by protestors. I think you'll find that RBS is asking for quite a bit of money from the young lady concerned for damage done. There was also footage of people smashing windows at RBS. (I assume you're not going to argue that it was the police in disguise).
I'm slightly concerned about your difinition of thugary. I think you'll find that it relates to more than just people, so yes, the people who broke into the EDS labs creatin damage to them and to employees cars are thugs because their behaviour was thuggish.
I have no problem with people protesting. It's a recognised right and I would be the first to complain if it was to be taken away. However what people don't have the right to do is to adversly affect others wihle executing thier right. One thing that I regularly remind children I teach is that they do have rights, but those rights only go so far as to the limit of not infringing on the lawful rights of others.
Smash EDO are not promoting violence. Well not in so many words, but you will notice that thier chairman has said that “There will be splinter groups that can go and do whatever they want. We can’t control them." Now you may want to insist that sort of statement is said in all innocence, thats fine, but I would argue that to do so is naieve. Sounds more like a way encouraging people to form splinter groups. If he didn't want it, why mention it, or better still, why not say 'We want everyone to stay together so we can all be accountable for our actions'. (I'm trying not to laugh at the idea of him saying something like that!)
I'm sure you won't agree with what I've said, but thought I'd put something in for you to think about in terms of what you've said previously and responses to it that haven't been mentioned before.
Andre Spooner
says...
5:02pm Tue 28 Apr 09
sussex2
says...
5:23pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Gazza
says...
5:28pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Why don’t they go over to Afghanistan, Iraq, or any other country that has not signed up to the human rights treaty to show their grievances?
I tell you why’ they would end up having a good beating that’s why along with a few hundred deaths.
If some of these companies were based in china would they go and protest in Tiananmen Square
(Think Not) I do agree with the Chinese on how they deal with trouble makers I think we alt to adopt the same methods and ditch this human rights treaty and give these protesters who are hell bent on violence some of there own medicine. We’re too soft in this country.
If they are caught red handed smashing a window smash there heads .if they are caught spraying graffiti over things strip naked and spay there bodies with tar if they are caught spitting cut there tongues out. Then they would think twice about doing it again.
Yours faithfully Mr A passives
MoreMikey
says...
5:47pm Tue 28 Apr 09
8:50am Tue 28 Apr 09
Smash EDO is a non-violent group.
Then I suggest that they need to work on their delivery. Perhaps a name like "Persuade EDO to change" might convey the desired image. "SMASH EDO" doesn't sound non-violent at all.
I agree with poster TreasureIsland. The people of Brighton don't want these scum in their town.
MoreMikey
says...
5:49pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Andre Spooner wrote:What in the world do you smoke?
I love soap! I love riot! I love soldiers! I love protest! I love actually, I love to get a great big net-full-of-bees and put my face on them.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
6:02pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Erm, they aren't promoting violence at all!!!
And RE: "splinter groups": could that be because no one can honestly guarantee that there will be no trouble at a public event... especially a demonstration where you can the police starting the trouble isn't beyond the realms of reality.
Gazza:
If you love that kind of stuff so much I assume you have joined a radical Islamic group and are learning Pashtu with a view to moving to Helmand.
EDO MBM is however in Brighton, as are Smash EDO, so going to Kabul is kind of a waste of time, no?
By the way, all countries in the UN are signed up to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Afghanistan and Iraqactually voted for its inception back in 1948... not that they paid it much attention of late.
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Universal_D
eclaration_of_Human_
Rights#Adoption
stan bailey
says...
6:06pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
6:22pm Tue 28 Apr 09
MoreMikey wrote:Excellent point MoreMikey!
Maggie Thatcher, Grantham says...
8:50am Tue 28 Apr 09
Smash EDO is a non-violent group.
Then I suggest that they need to work on their delivery. Perhaps a name like "Persuade EDO to change" might convey the desired image. "SMASH EDO" doesn't sound non-violent at all.
I agree with poster TreasureIsland. The people of Brighton don't want these scum in their town.
And EDO doesn't sound very much like an arms company. Perhaps they could change their name to War 'Crimes Facilitators plc' or 'Dead Babies & Co.'?
You seem happy enough to have war criminals in Brighton though, no?
kkj
says...
6:41pm Tue 28 Apr 09
I take it then, that the rpotestors who are travelling from outside the city will be using non-capitalist transportation and the asked for sound-systems will all be made by non-capitalist companies?
As for non-violence, what are we to infer by the flyer headline "Come dance, fight and remember the victims of ITT".
Finally, if everything is so open and above board why is the venue for the street party being withheld until the last minute?
wardth
says...
7:00pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Bog Vern
says...
7:00pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
7:45pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Bog Vern wrote:Sorry Bog (Big???),
No reply from Maggie Thatcher - must be trawling the internet for more factually incorrect platitudes and propaganda!!!
I was leafing through 'Daily Mail Readers for Dummies' in an attempt to communicate better with commenters here.
Feel free to tell my WHAT I have said that is "factually incorrect". I'm the last person need to ask 'permission to speak' from.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
7:47pm Tue 28 Apr 09
kkj wrote:My old colleague Norman has already answered that one elsewhere.
The street party is billed as "Against War and Greed Smash EDO/ITT - Smash Capitalism"
I take it then, that the rpotestors who are travelling from outside the city will be using non-capitalist transportation and the asked for sound-systems will all be made by non-capitalist companies?
As for non-violence, what are we to infer by the flyer headline "Come dance, fight and remember the victims of ITT".
Finally, if everything is so open and above board why is the venue for the street party being withheld until the last minute?
http://www.indymedia
.org.uk/en/2009/04/4
28712.html?c=on#c222
010
Osama bin there
says...
7:49pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:For them to be war criminals, or indeed criminals of any kind, they have to be tried and convicted in a court of law.
MoreMikey wrote: Maggie Thatcher, Grantham says... 8:50am Tue 28 Apr 09 Smash EDO is a non-violent group. Then I suggest that they need to work on their delivery. Perhaps a name like "Persuade EDO to change" might convey the desired image. "SMASH EDO" doesn't sound non-violent at all. I agree with poster TreasureIsland. The people of Brighton don't want these scum in their town.Excellent point MoreMikey! And EDO doesn't sound very much like an arms company. Perhaps they could change their name to War 'Crimes Facilitators plc' or 'Dead Babies & Co.'? You seem happy enough to have war criminals in Brighton though, no?
Why do you think the Nuremberg Trials took place after WW2? Due process had to be observed.
They haven't been tried, so they aren't war criminals until due legal process has taken place, and they have been convicted.
Or do you want to be judge, jury and firing squad?
Yes, I thought you did.
Thank god, Maggie, you are no longer in charge, and are heading to a grave, increasingly senile and demented.
Bog Vern
says...
8:00pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:What have you said that is factually correct?
Bog Vern wrote:Sorry Bog (Big???),
No reply from Maggie Thatcher - must be trawling the internet for more factually incorrect platitudes and propaganda!!!
I was leafing through 'Daily Mail Readers for Dummies' in an attempt to communicate better with commenters here.
Feel free to tell my WHAT I have said that is "factually incorrect". I'm the last person need to ask 'permission to speak' from.
All you have done is belittle, shout and scream at people that has disagreed with you - even on these posts.
That does not make you right and it does not entitle you to the moral high-ground.
There's none so deaf as those that won't listen
kkj
says...
8:16pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:He's answered ONE of my THREE points. Would you like a stab at answering the other two? Or even one?
kkj wrote:My old colleague Norman has already answered that one elsewhere.
The street party is billed as "Against War and Greed Smash EDO/ITT - Smash Capitalism"
I take it then, that the rpotestors who are travelling from outside the city will be using non-capitalist transportation and the asked for sound-systems will all be made by non-capitalist companies?
As for non-violence, what are we to infer by the flyer headline "Come dance, fight and remember the victims of ITT".
Finally, if everything is so open and above board why is the venue for the street party being withheld until the last minute?
http://www.indymedia
.org.uk/en/2009/04/4
28712.html?c=on#c222
010
OK, so if its fight as in 'resist', why not say 'Come dance, resist and remember...'?
getreal1
says...
8:18pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:34pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Osama bin there wrote:I believe I am factually correct on everything I have said.
Maggie Thatcher wrote:For them to be war criminals, or indeed criminals of any kind, they have to be tried and convicted in a court of law.
MoreMikey wrote: Maggie Thatcher, Grantham says... 8:50am Tue 28 Apr 09 Smash EDO is a non-violent group. Then I suggest that they need to work on their delivery. Perhaps a name like "Persuade EDO to change" might convey the desired image. "SMASH EDO" doesn't sound non-violent at all. I agree with poster TreasureIsland. The people of Brighton don't want these scum in their town.Excellent point MoreMikey! And EDO doesn't sound very much like an arms company. Perhaps they could change their name to War 'Crimes Facilitators plc' or 'Dead Babies & Co.'? You seem happy enough to have war criminals in Brighton though, no?
Why do you think the Nuremberg Trials took place after WW2? Due process had to be observed.
They haven't been tried, so they aren't war criminals until due legal process has taken place, and they have been convicted.
Or do you want to be judge, jury and firing squad?
Yes, I thought you did.
Thank god, Maggie, you are no longer in charge, and are heading to a grave, increasingly senile and demented.
I shouted???
I take it you left school early?
;-)
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:36pm Tue 28 Apr 09
The last question: because in this wonderful democratic society of free speech people have to be careful otherwise the police close down their demonstration (see G20; the dead man; the beaten girls etc.)
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:45pm Tue 28 Apr 09
No actually, EDO are only LEGALLY recognisable as war criminals after they have been tried and found guilty. Objectively, they would have still have been war criminals before that trial.
Did Ian Huntly only become a paedophile killer after being found guilty???
The difference here is that Huntly denied his crimes, whereas EDOs supply of bomb release mechanisms to Israel to be used on civilians is well documented in the public domain.
I assume you would have referred to Hitler as an 'alleged war criminal' until his in absentia trial?
But it's rather amusing to see someone playing the subjudice card, given that the story and most of the comments are designed to smear a group that has never been convicted of any violent crimes.
Time for you to try and buff that kettle up again?
But hey, it's nice to see that going by this thread Brighton is more upset about some hours of being subjected to 'smelly people' than a company that sells equipment used to kill kids.
Is there a civic pride award for cold-blooded ruthlessness?
stickman
says...
9:01pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Wars happen whether you or I like it or not. So weapons get made to fight them. Yes that may be wrong but the attempt to shut down a UK employer will not stop war or even weapons manufacture.
In that case - what is the point? Why not demo against governments and other organisations (including Islamic) that encourage violence? Or is this just a social day out for people who are fashionably against everything?
kkj
says...
9:05pm Tue 28 Apr 09
You are using a PC of some description. I would wager that there is a percentage of components within that PC that has been produced by a company that has made components for military use.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:13pm Tue 28 Apr 09
kkj wrote:So, we all have to commit suicide to be true-believers?
facwetious certainly, by valid nonetheless. You can't claim on the one hand to being anti-capitalist and then on the other hand use the products of a capitalist system without laying yourself open to claims of hypocrisy.
You are using a PC of some description. I would wager that there is a percentage of components within that PC that has been produced by a company that has made components for military use.
Ever heard off the concept of 'change'?
Your point is about as valid as the guy laughing at someone's beard.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:21pm Tue 28 Apr 09
stickman wrote:Yeah, fighting will always happen.
Whats the answer then Thatch? Lets not make any weapons and everybody will just sit down and be nice to everyone?
Wars happen whether you or I like it or not. So weapons get made to fight them. Yes that may be wrong but the attempt to shut down a UK employer will not stop war or even weapons manufacture.
In that case - what is the point? Why not demo against governments and other organisations (including Islamic) that encourage violence? Or is this just a social day out for people who are fashionably against everything?
But the people of the UK aren't obligated to provide Israel with the means to kill children, to bomb hospitals, to hit ambulances...
In fact, we have no moral obligation to be providing weapons to anyone but our own troops to defend our own country.
Or do you suppose it's fair for Blair & Brown to be sending our poor (literally) kids off to die for the American Empire too?
If no one sold Israel the tools, then they'd not be committing the crimes. At the least we can start by ensuring they aren't committing the crimes with our assistance.
Back in the stone age, when there was a war a few dozen blokes would go bash each other up, a few people tops would die, some would be injured. The matter would be settled and they'd all limp off.
Now, war kills more civilians than combatants and hundreds of thousand to millions of them at that.
History shows the current situation doesn't have to prevail, but if people just shrug their shoulders, nothing will ever change.
With that attitude this country would have been part of Germany.
brightongrappler
says...
9:23pm Tue 28 Apr 09
kkj
says...
9:27pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Suicide? Where did that come from?
kkj wrote:So, we all have to commit suicide to be true-believers?
facwetious certainly, by valid nonetheless. You can't claim on the one hand to being anti-capitalist and then on the other hand use the products of a capitalist system without laying yourself open to claims of hypocrisy.
You are using a PC of some description. I would wager that there is a percentage of components within that PC that has been produced by a company that has made components for military use.
Ever heard off the concept of 'change'?
Your point is about as valid as the guy laughing at someone's beard.
Change I am familiar with. I too was an idealist once upon a time; now I am a pragamatist.
I think you would make a great politician.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:29pm Tue 28 Apr 09
brightongrappler wrote:I'll have to take your word that Ina Huntly has a fan club...
maggie thatcher - people like you are ian huntley fans. you just dont know where to get off. if you love the murdering palestinians that much why dont you move over there and become 1 of their suicide bombers - of course not because you and your unwashed friends dont like to get hurt or killed so shut up you uneducated imbecile.
As for the rest of your points:
http://www.ism-londo
n.org.uk/
http://www.freegaza.
org/
http://www.rachelcor
rie.org/
http://www.tomhurnda
ll.co.uk/
Consider yourself educated now.
brightongrappler
says...
9:35pm Tue 28 Apr 09
stickman
says...
9:39pm Tue 28 Apr 09
I tried to find some condemnation of Hamas launching unguided missiles at built up areas in Israel but couldn't find any in your links.
If you care about the problems in Palestine what is needed is to get working on the peace and not dwell on who made the bits that make up the bombs that Israel are using. There is no fighting now - if no-one bothers to build on that there will be fighting again soon.
brightongrappler
says...
9:48pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:06pm Tue 28 Apr 09
But I condemn also the killing of over a thousand innocent men women and children, quite likely using EDO parts.
Oh and nice to see you have been successfully brainwashed into believing that Hamas broke the ceasefire when it didn't, it was Israel that broke the ceasefire by assassinating Hamas leaders.
I wonder how the good people of Brighton would respond if Israel decided to invade England and forced then into a concentration camp?
One thing is for sure, supplying Israel with the tools of genocide isn't going to bring any peace.
stickman
says...
10:19pm Tue 28 Apr 09
There are many things that won't bring peace - taking sides certainly won't.
If Israel invaded England I would hope the wider world would work hard with both sides for peace and not just smash the windows of the arms factories.
Osama bin there
says...
10:26pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:At one point about 2 days ago I thought you made some interesting points.
"Osama bin reading the Daily Mail" No actually, EDO are only LEGALLY recognisable as war criminals after they have been tried and found guilty. Objectively, they would have still have been war criminals before that trial. Did Ian Huntly only become a paedophile killer after being found guilty??? The difference here is that Huntly denied his crimes, whereas EDOs supply of bomb release mechanisms to Israel to be used on civilians is well documented in the public domain. I assume you would have referred to Hitler as an 'alleged war criminal' until his in absentia trial? But it's rather amusing to see someone playing the subjudice card, given that the story and most of the comments are designed to smear a group that has never been convicted of any violent crimes. Time for you to try and buff that kettle up again? But hey, it's nice to see that going by this thread Brighton is more upset about some hours of being subjected to 'smelly people' than a company that sells equipment used to kill kids. Is there a civic pride award for cold-blooded ruthlessness?
But reading your increasingly off the wall rantings, and seeing as how you seem to be a spokesperson for Smash EDO, I can only conclude that if you represent them, I want nothing to do with them or anything they stand for.
Same as 25 years ago I wanted nothing to do with your namesake.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:31pm Tue 28 Apr 09
If you can't muster the moral outrage at having a company in your backyard that sells weapons to child killers, I can never reach you.
If you are repulsed by someone who is against war crimes, ask yourself what that means about yourself.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:39pm Tue 28 Apr 09
stickman wrote:Fact:
Israel are surrounded by hostile Arab nations and feel under threat when exposed to even a small act of violence. They overreact with a huge crushing blow that kills indiscriminately. No taking sides on my part.
There are many things that won't bring peace - taking sides certainly won't.
If Israel invaded England I would hope the wider world would work hard with both sides for peace and not just smash the windows of the arms factories.
Israel was forcibly created by invading and stealing the bulk of Palestine- and killing UK troops.
It's a war that is still going on. Israel was never at some peace that was shattered by "neighbours".
Israel has brutally attacked several countries with great disproportion in recent years- consistently ignoring the UN and targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure.
I'm not taking sides. I'm standing for the law and order of the United Nations and the Geneva Conventions.
Is it now partisan to want to see international law upheld???
S.T. Rewth
says...
10:54pm Tue 28 Apr 09
unclesam
says...
11:09pm Tue 28 Apr 09
S.T. Rewth wrote:brilliant idea im up for it LETS START UP OUR OWN GROUP " LOVE EDO "
Perhaps all Brightonians should have their own Peaceful "Street Party" to show their support for LOCAL enterprise and show just how the day-trip-protestors are NOT wanted. Could make the 1960's Mods & Rockers look like a picnic.
stickman
says...
11:10pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Mondays demo is a misdirected show of support for the Palestinians with a few other fashionable causes thrown in to make a day of it. Still, if it makes people feel they are doing something...
emma barnes
says...
11:28pm Tue 28 Apr 09
TheInsider
says...
11:36pm Tue 28 Apr 09
Why do they want to be seen as martyrs for the world's troubles? There are always do-gooders who want to get involved with the "glamorous"and "high profile" campaigns yet getting involved with grass root causes is just all to tiresome for them.
These people are no different from those dreadful and ridiculed characters Sting and Bono - living like kings yet telling everyone else they are doing everything wrong.
I don't want my community wrecked and plastered with graffiti as it often is by these campaigners when they traipse up to EDO. Why does campaigning involve spraying paint over my community. What have I and my hard-working neighbours done to deserve this?
Campaign yes, but ruin people's communities for your own means is unacceptable and Brighton people wont have it.
bibble
says...
12:04am Wed 29 Apr 09
unclesam wrote:Please stop shouting.
I WAS GOING TO GO AWAY FOR THE WEEKEND BUT I THINK ILL STAY PUT CANT WAIT TO SEE ALL THOSE LENTIL EATING SCROUNGERS GET THE **** KICKED OUT OF THEM . WHY DONT YOU ALL GIVE OUT YOUR ADDRESSES AND ANYONE WHO DONT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING CAN COME ROUND AND KICK THE **** OUT OF YOU AND SMASH YOUR PLACE UP . WELL I SAY SMASH THEM UP THEY PROBABLY WOULDNT LOOK ANY DIFFERENT BEFORE OR AFTER .I HOPE YOU ALL GET A GOOD KICKIN
Are you one of the policemen who is looking for the "ringleaders"?
GVG
says...
12:28am Wed 29 Apr 09
God help any of us who require the emergency services for a real emergency on Monday... if someone dies because an ambulance or fire engine can't get through town due to these inconsiderate 'visitors' does this mean we residents of this great City have the right to call these protestors "Brighton Killers"!
And what about the cost of this, correct me if I'm wrong all you fellow Brightonians, but won't WE have to pay for this protest through next years council tax increase, to cover all that money spent on extra police resource and council clean up.
Do they really think someone is actually listening, when really we just laugh at them, just spend this day with your family at the park or seaside that’s what we do in this country on day's like this (if you are lucky enough not to be working), don't ruin it for everyone or you might find everyone will think twice about your purpose, we shall see the true colours of these protestors in the media coverage which is all they really want.
P.S. Maggie - you can't change the world we live in, over 2,000 years of violence has preceded you, do you really think things will ever change? don't paste any hyperlinks unless they are about cancelling the event.
stan bailey
says...
7:05am Wed 29 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:I think the Israel people have to sleep in bunkers at night because of the piddling little fireworks. When a piddling little firework was let of on July 7th on a London bus I recall the Brits were none to happy. Would you like piddling little fireworks fired at you home night after night?
Hey I whole-heartedly condemn Hamas's piddling little homemade firework attacks that have killed about 12 people in about 7 years.
But I condemn also the killing of over a thousand innocent men women and children, quite likely using EDO parts.
Oh and nice to see you have been successfully brainwashed into believing that Hamas broke the ceasefire when it didn't, it was Israel that broke the ceasefire by assassinating Hamas leaders.
I wonder how the good people of Brighton would respond if Israel decided to invade England and forced then into a concentration camp?
One thing is for sure, supplying Israel with the tools of genocide isn't going to bring any peace.
Acheron
says...
7:15am Wed 29 Apr 09
Still waiting for a reply to the majority of the post I made (about number 50). I noted you made a comment about Smash EDO not being about to control splinter groups because no one could, but you've ignored all the other stuff, including the rights of those of us in Brighton etc.
Come on, answer the other stuff or am I not deemed worthy of a response!
And on the issue you answered. No they may not be able to control 'splinter groups' but there is a big difference between saying what they have and saying something along the lines of 'while we accpect there will be splinter groups, we would urge them not to commit any criminal damage'. Odd that they don't!
Tye
says...
7:15am Wed 29 Apr 09
emma barnes wrote:That's more interesting than "Maggie Thatcher" bigotted view - is thatwhy you took her name?
What day do we put the bins out?
Your point that EDO are wrong - a legal Brighton company employing people and everything that this bunch of scum may do will be OK or justified only proves my point!
Sussex Police - why are you so weak, run by a Chief Constable who stabs you in the back before the event - bring out your tear gas, your water cannon, your tasers, your soap, your threat of cancelling benefits (from taxes paid by cmpanies such as EDO)
TheInsider
says...
7:20am Wed 29 Apr 09
I am sick of my community being trashed.
I lobbied my MP against the war in Iraq and am a peace activist, but the previous protest which have left my community wrecked has slowly killed any support they may have received from me.
These protesters campaign is a public relations disaster so far and they need to re-group and consider more carefully their action as so far they have done little except alienate local people who probably have more power to close EDO than they have.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:02am Wed 29 Apr 09
TheInsider wrote:Then perhaps you should get involved and exert some influence?
Well GVG, all Brighton residents who see any anti-social behaviour by these out-of-towners should film/photograph the incidents and pass the footage on to police.
I am sick of my community being trashed.
I lobbied my MP against the war in Iraq and am a peace activist, but the previous protest which have left my community wrecked has slowly killed any support they may have received from me.
These protesters campaign is a public relations disaster so far and they need to re-group and consider more carefully their action as so far they have done little except alienate local people who probably have more power to close EDO than they have.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:10am Wed 29 Apr 09
Again. If you feel more outraged at someone smashing a car or a piece of machinery than the fact you have a company in your back yard that sells arms that are used on children, then what the hell can I ever say to you that will make a difference?
What is the point on someone apologising for something they have neither done nor incited... I take it has escaped your notice that the story at the top of this thread is a piece of creative fiction rather than anything emanating from Smash EDO?
smalltowngirl
says...
9:00am Wed 29 Apr 09
worthinglad
says...
10:07am Wed 29 Apr 09
The campaign’s events are attended by no more than 100/200 people, this is hardly a mass movement supported by a majority or even a minority of the population of Brighton of 250,000 or Sussex of a million or more. They are a small unrepresentative vocal arrogant group, whose violent and provocative actions are a substantial nuisance to the ratepayers and citizens of Brighton.
Now they propose to “target” in, I assume their words, a number of what they believe are associated businesses in the Brighton area. The businesses are on the usual hate list of these people, including McDonalds. I suppose in the name and principle of the democratic but peaceful right to protest (peaceful the bit they always forget) we have to have our Bank Holiday disrupted by their puerile tactics, but should they trespass over the line into violence, I for one , would not be sorry if the police were heavy with them..
Maggie from Grantham, do you have a useful occupation?
johnsmith48
says...
10:23am Wed 29 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
11:09am Wed 29 Apr 09
johnsmith48 wrote:So perhaps for thsi product you hide behind a third party contract that means technically you supply Raytheon and Raytheon supply the IAF? Same s**t different smell!
Maggie, stop playing the emotional 'EDO MBM supply Israel' card. You know full well they don't. I know it does not suit your cause to deal with this fact, but fact it is.
http://www.indymedia
.org.uk/en/2008/08/4
07351.html
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Criticism_o
f_EDO_Corporation#Sa
les_to_the_Israel_de
fense_forces
http://www.defensein
dustrydaily.com/edo-
alofts-towedarray-so
nar-for-israel-02030
/
EDO's parent company even has an "aerospace" (a.k.a. weapons) rep out in Israel:
http://www.ittaerosp
ace.com/new_contact.
asp
http://www.janes.com
/articles/Janes-Inte
rnational-ABC-Aerosp
ace-Directory/ISP-In
dustry-Sales-Promoti
ons-Ltd-Israel.html
johnsmith48
says...
11:18am Wed 29 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
11:31am Wed 29 Apr 09
johnsmith48 wrote:USA??? That makes no sense when the parts are being produced in Brighton, even by EDO/ITT's own admission:
Maggie, so go take your protest to the USA, i thought your beef was based on what EDO Brighton does. Hell, move there and give all some peace.
"Raytheon's UK Paveway Team also includes Portsmouth Aviation Limited (Air Foil Group and Navalised containers) and EDO MBM Technology in Brighton (Aircraft Umbilical Interconnect System and Quad Containers). Thales Missile Electronics Ltd in Basingstoke is developing and manufacturing the PGB Fuze, a state-of-the-art ‘intelligent' fuze with full cockpit interface."
And even if it weren't so, the Home Farm location would still be a valid target for protest since they are part of the same company.
stickman
says...
12:20pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Your moral outrage is great. What are you going to do about it?
Acheron,
Again. If you feel more outraged at someone smashing a car or a piece of machinery than the fact you have a company in your back yard that sells arms that are used on children, then what the hell can I ever say to you that will make a difference?
What is the point on someone apologising for something they have neither done nor incited... I take it has escaped your notice that the story at the top of this thread is a piece of creative fiction rather than anything emanating from Smash EDO?
Why demo against McDonalds, BP, DHL, Amex and the council as well. To me it just looks like a nice day out for people who are against stuff. It might make them feel they are doing something but will, in fact, do nothing positive whatsoever.
The war in Palestine was not caused by EDO - they just make money out of it. So do Boeing, Bell, Sikorsky, Aerospatiale, General Dynamics etc. Not nice maybe but hardly the root of all evil. If Smash EDO succeed than other companies will take their place.
Real peace won't come by this type of demo. Do you seriously think it will?!!
Also, since you seem to have forgotten and you like throwing links about, this is why there are concerns about the protest:
http://www.guardian.
co.uk/world/2009/jan
/17/gaza-armsfactory
-protest
owler
says...
12:34pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:42pm Wed 29 Apr 09
/wiki/Decommissionin
g_the_arms_trade
I'll remind you again. No one but the Argus has suggested that MayDay will be an exercise in ransacking Brighton.
Aaaah, some has finally rolled out the age-old "Well if it wasn't me doing it. it'd just be someone else!". Just fancy if Ian Huntley tried that one? "If it weren't me rape-murdering kids, it'd just be someone else doing it" or "Why bother sending Huntley down, someone else will just take his place"... hey why bother having morality or a legal system at all???
If it weren't for people like Smash EDO the arms trade would be free to sell torture weapons, to sell land mines, there be no blacklist of countries, no one would be bothering to close loopholes.
The Raytheon 9 won their court case. Their decommissioning in Derry was deemed legal.
So, these action do have an effect. Perhaps not with most people who have no knowledge of the issues and get all their info from rags like the Argus. But it gets heard by people who can make a change, and slowly change happens.
Which is why people like BAe pay private spooks to infiltrate activist networks, and to engage in all sort of dirty tricks, including pretending to be an outraged member of the public on public forums...
But hey, if it weren't for protests and direct action you'd all still be legal property of your local lord. Kids would still be up chimneys, and you'd still be required to doff your caps to gentlemen in the street.
That the kind of world you want?
But if you are such a conscientious and sage person, what the hell are you doing here defending a shady weapons company... slow times in Hades? Or is the moniker an admission?
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:50pm Wed 29 Apr 09
owler wrote:I have heard they have a trained an army of (organically-reared and free-ranging) flying baboons to attack the Children's Parade... Perhaps the Argus can get a front page out that one?
Can the organisers tell us if there is a threat to the Childrens Parade?
*shaking head in sheer disbelief*
Osama bin there
says...
12:56pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:You never answer anyone's points that are a bit 'tricky', but just rant on and on, very often making completely unwarranted personal attacks on people who's idealogy you have no clue about. As soon as someone asks you a difficult question you either ignore it, or hide behind the ludicrous shield that if you aren't pro smash edo, then you must be ok with children being killed in Palestine.
Why would anyone but EDO be "concerned" about the decommissioning. from the horse's mouth: http://wikileaks.org /wiki/Decommissionin g_the_arms_trade I'll remind you again. No one but the Argus has suggested that MayDay will be an exercise in ransacking Brighton. Aaaah, some has finally rolled out the age-old "Well if it wasn't me doing it. it'd just be someone else!". Just fancy if Ian Huntley tried that one? "If it weren't me rape-murdering kids, it'd just be someone else doing it" or "Why bother sending Huntley down, someone else will just take his place"... hey why bother having morality or a legal system at all??? If it weren't for people like Smash EDO the arms trade would be free to sell torture weapons, to sell land mines, there be no blacklist of countries, no one would be bothering to close loopholes. The Raytheon 9 won their court case. Their decommissioning in Derry was deemed legal. So, these action do have an effect. Perhaps not with most people who have no knowledge of the issues and get all their info from rags like the Argus. But it gets heard by people who can make a change, and slowly change happens. Which is why people like BAe pay private spooks to infiltrate activist networks, and to engage in all sort of dirty tricks, including pretending to be an outraged member of the public on public forums... But hey, if it weren't for protests and direct action you'd all still be legal property of your local lord. Kids would still be up chimneys, and you'd still be required to doff your caps to gentlemen in the street. That the kind of world you want? But if you are such a conscientious and sage person, what the hell are you doing here defending a shady weapons company... slow times in Hades? Or is the moniker an admission?
There are plenty of us here that aren't ok with children being killed in Palestine and also aren't ok with the aims of smash edo! It is possible to have that point of view - but in your 'fascist state' of mind I doubt that would be allowed.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
1:06pm Wed 29 Apr 09
I'm just wondering what "tricky" point I have been avoiding? You are rather good at telling me HOW I am being inadequate, but ironically offering no substance yourself.
"Unwarranted attacks""? Substance?
Tye
says...
2:02pm Wed 29 Apr 09
OUT OUT OUT
Maggie Out
seriously your wittering reminds me of those people who complain about foxes BUT not millions of factory chickens
Its trendy innit - don't bother with the big issues
MrPresident
says...
2:08pm Wed 29 Apr 09
STAY AWAY. THE VAST MAJORITY DON'T WANT YOU HERE SO KEEP OUT OF OUR TOWN AND KEEP OUT OF MY WAY.
Also, Maggie Thatcher should take a leaf out of her namesake's book. When she was unwanted she disappeared into obscurity. Maybe you should do the same.
Spx
says...
2:23pm Wed 29 Apr 09
MzEden
says...
3:03pm Wed 29 Apr 09
If smash get their way, EDO would close down causing major job losses not only at EDO but at the businesses that supply them both directly and indirectly. This would also have a massive effect on the local government and our local population. People from outside of Sussex are being bussed in to destroy our local economy and there is nothing we can do about it.
It's all very well thinking of the 'poor palestinians etc' but what about us poor hardworking British people who are also just trying to survive. Those of us lucky enough to have jobs may have wanted to spend some quality time on, what is supposed to be a rare weekend of nice weather, with our families and friends. Our local businesses were probably looking foreward to a similar weekend of keeping their heads above water and maybe another month of not having theirs houses repossessed. How selfish of us all! It's all very well thinking of others but, charity should begin at home and I know I speak for many when I say we should be looking after our local communities before looking to heal the world.
stickman
says...
3:55pm Wed 29 Apr 09
The demo is pointless - its like going after people who make syringes instead of drug dealers and producers. Even worse it seems to be raising public opinion against all the issues they stand for and will very likely damage the local economy in the process. If the cause was worthy then its a price worth paying. But it is not worthy. It is misguided and, even if successful, will do nothing to help anybody.
As I tried to say before - getting peace means you don't take sides. You've got to get both sides to look ahead and move forward. Of course its hard to put the atrocities behind but it is the only way to get peace.
Do Smash EDO really want peace? Of course they could not care less. They clearly don't think about the root causes of the problems in Palestine or they would be harassing the US, UK, Israeli, Syrian and Iranian governments to grow up, get together and at least try to sort this stuff out.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
4:10pm Wed 29 Apr 09
except that unlike syringes bomb delivery systems do not have a humanitarian dual use. Bomb systems kill people, syringes don't.
So it is like going after going after the drug lab, not even the dealer, nor the addict.
And yes, people are pressuring the governments, and other companies in other locations too. You think we are all mentally subnormal???
Neutrality? It's a great concept. If you are a Swiss banker or an arms dealer.
The rest of the world knows there is only the dialectical state or arguing sides.
There is nothing ever futile in opposing injustice and murder.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
4:15pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Tye wrote:Tye,
Maggie Maggie Maggie
OUT OUT OUT
Maggie Out
seriously your wittering reminds me of those people who complain about foxes BUT not millions of factory chickens
Its trendy innit - don't bother with the big issues
actually you'll find that most people attending will be very much against all nasty farming practises including battery farming.
I myself am against fox hunting and all "blood sports" (breeding to kill for fun) and also used to keep chickens.
Trendy isn't an adjective I hear too often thrown in my direction hahaha!
:-)
MoreMikey
says...
6:25pm Wed 29 Apr 09
You think we are all mentally subnormal???
That's the impression you're giving.
Come on, people, the door's wide open....
Maggie Thatcher
says...
7:32pm Wed 29 Apr 09
MoreMikey wrote:Well I'm still higher up the intellectual food chain than the "let's beat the s**t out them!" and "get a job, soap dodger" brigade.
Maggie Thatcher, Grantham says...
You think we are all mentally subnormal???
That's the impression you're giving.
Come on, people, the door's wide open....
:-D
mkb
says...
8:18pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Until such a time as EDO/MBM have been found to have acted outside the law of the land, your 'protests' only serve to garner support for the company who is trading legally & whose workforce are simply doing what they are instructed to do by their employers - I would be so bold as to suggest that an employer has every right to tell its workers what their duties entail & failure of the worker to perform these duties will lead very quickly to the dole queue!
Protest by all means as is your right but PLEASE do not inflict your bile on innocent members of the public who are simply doing their jobs.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:30pm Wed 29 Apr 09
mkb wrote:Aaah, now we're getting there "Vee vere onlee following orderss ja!"
Maggie - you keep on referring to Ian Huntley. What you fail to grasp is that he was found guilty in a court of law. No amount of 'protest' could have sentenced him, purely a trial by his peers.
Until such a time as EDO/MBM have been found to have acted outside the law of the land, your 'protests' only serve to garner support for the company who is trading legally & whose workforce are simply doing what they are instructed to do by their employers - I would be so bold as to suggest that an employer has every right to tell its workers what their duties entail & failure of the worker to perform these duties will lead very quickly to the dole queue!
Protest by all means as is your right but PLEASE do not inflict your bile on innocent members of the public who are simply doing their jobs.
Well, Nuremberg (war Crimes)Priciple IV
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Nuremberg_P
rinciples
"PLEASE do not inflict your bile on innocent members of the public who are simply doing their jobs."
Yes, my local cracker dealer tried that defence too, and got sent down for 6 years.
mkb
says...
8:38pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Nuremberg Principles are all very well but try telling that to your mortgage company (if you would ever stoop to such a level from your lofty perch) when you fail to meet your obligations!
mkb wrote: Maggie - you keep on referring to Ian Huntley. What you fail to grasp is that he was found guilty in a court of law. No amount of 'protest' could have sentenced him, purely a trial by his peers. Until such a time as EDO/MBM have been found to have acted outside the law of the land, your 'protests' only serve to garner support for the company who is trading legally & whose workforce are simply doing what they are instructed to do by their employers - I would be so bold as to suggest that an employer has every right to tell its workers what their duties entail & failure of the worker to perform these duties will lead very quickly to the dole queue! Protest by all means as is your right but PLEASE do not inflict your bile on innocent members of the public who are simply doing their jobs.Aaah, now we're getting there "Vee vere onlee following orderss ja!" Well, Nuremberg (war Crimes)Priciple IV "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him." http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Nuremberg_P rinciples "PLEASE do not inflict your bile on innocent members of the public who are simply doing their jobs." Yes, my local cracker dealer tried that defence too, and got sent down for 6 years.
Again your reply demonstrates your inability to accept that people may have opinions that differ from your own.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:50pm Wed 29 Apr 09
"Why didn't you get another job daddy?" is the obvious question.
Sure, people make mistakes, and are sometimes desperate, but after a while that argument wears a little thin and becomes a matter of choice rather than necessity. No person in the UK is forced to make equipment that is used for killing. Legally they cannot be (see Human Rights Act).
It's not a lofty perch to object to killing innocent people.
TheInsider
says...
9:56pm Wed 29 Apr 09
When cash-strapped councils are cutting social services budgets and children's services because they are having to find cash to clear up graffiti, clear streets of stones and rocks thrown by protesters and pay staff overtime to help marshall what threatens to be an uncontrolled protest, then you can take the moral high ground about killing kids Maggie.
When the police have to throw every officer at the event because there is a sad inevitability that these people will not behave, there are dozens of children in homes in the city where domestic violence takes place, who will be at risk. Brighton and Hove has the highest number of "gold" risk cases in the region...that's women who are at risk of death from a partner. They are also at risk but perhaps you are happy to sacrifice others for a moral high ground.
The same goes for the ambulance service who are on standby to deal with this event. They are on standby when their budgets are at a stretch and when swine flu poses a serious risk to children and the vulnerable.
But no. Protesters don't think about protesting in a different way - in a way that does not burden already over-stretched services. No. They seem happy to put other people's lives at risk for their own means and call themselves antagonistic and aggressive names which threaten ordinary people - Smash EDO.
And if you think EDO are the only company in this town "supporting" military action then you are very naive.
Perhaps you should consider closing the unis engineering departments for educating people who then go to work in defence, or try closing every mobile phone shop for providing telecommunications to the military, target nurses who offer re-hab services to the military, civilian airlines for flying MI5 agents to the Middle East. The list goes on. If you knew the extent of association, you would not be bothered with EDO which is actually probably a smokescreen to keep you off the scent of something much bigger anyway...out of town site. How convenient.
These big companies learned a great deal from animal protests in the 80s.
The campaign makes no attempt at inclusion and gaining support from ordinary people and the growing resentment from local people suggests the campaigners have failed to convey their message successfully. A lost campaign is often a lost cause.
unclesam
says...
10:16pm Wed 29 Apr 09
MoreMikey
says...
10:31pm Wed 29 Apr 09
So, Maggie, "Try telling your kids that further down the line when they've realised you killed children for a living."
Don't you think you're stretching your point (not that you haven't been all along, but this is ridiculous).
Perhaps every car factory worker should resign rather than risk participating in the manufacture of a vehicle that may kill a child. Can we count on you for a "SMASH FORD" or "SMASH VAUXHALL" campaign too?
Sure, some children were killed, by bombs that were dropped from an aircraft that happened to contain some equipment made by EDO, but the folks that work there to feed their families didn't set out to design a child-killing machine, any more than a maker of kitchen knives thought "Let's see how many men use these to harm their partners and neighbours", or a maker of, say, matches, designed them to make arson as easy as possible. The children that died were not the targets, and their lives are no more valuable than the adults who also died - you're just using their deaths to further your own ravings.
It seems that the majority of posters here care about having an enjoyable and safe Bank Holiday. Your hare-brained agenda, and having their town trashed: not so much. So please, give it rest and stop rabble-rousing. And if you can't do that, at least let the children rest in peace without your using them as pawns in your strange game.
alyn, southwick
says...
10:34pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Smash EDO's actions say the opposite of their supposed message of peace. (Israel/Gaza, and those who may - truely - support them, even indirectly, was unforgiveable but their actions are breed of the same stock as Smash EDO. And same of many other regimes around the world, even supposedly civilized ones.)
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:40pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Cars aren't designed to kill. Bombs are designed for no other purpose.
Who apart from the Argus has implied the town is about to get trashed???
The story is as thin as a convent broth.
Auld School
says...
11:35pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Maybe you just need some...exercise..do you know what I mean.
My tip is stop being so intense, don't talk about you, relax and ask them about their interests. I can assure you this will get the results.
Otherwise it will be more 'set pieces' and that constant feeling you have of low self worth.
I'm sure you are better than that.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
11:53pm Wed 29 Apr 09
Auld School wrote:Hahahahaha! You projecting?
Maggie, I think you need some friends?
Maybe you just need some...exercise..do you know what I mean.
My tip is stop being so intense, don't talk about you, relax and ask them about their interests. I can assure you this will get the results.
Otherwise it will be more 'set pieces' and that constant feeling you have of low self worth.
I'm sure you are better than that.
lastgasp
says...
11:53pm Wed 29 Apr 09
MoreMikey
says...
12:02am Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:EDO does not make bombs.
MoreMikey,
Cars aren't designed to kill. Bombs are designed for no other purpose.
Who apart from the Argus has implied the town is about to get trashed???
The story is as thin as a convent broth.
kkj
says...
12:03am Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie - please answer me this; Assume that you are successful. Tuesday morning, ITT say EDO/MBM is closing its Brighton operations. What then? Will you consider your work done?
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:22am Thu 30 Apr 09
EDO makes bomb delivery systems. They are needed to drop the bombs from the aircraft. They are still making an integral part of the bomb system. So don't split hairs, The work in bomb technology. The make weapons.
KKJ: Yes, very successful. And then move on to another murderous company (Raytheon, BAe, Lockheed MArtin etc etc). And so on and so forth... and if they aren't all shut down before I drop dead, someone else will carry the torch. And if the companies move operations abroad, then we hope others take up the fight, and we push for international pressure...
Remember how people painted the black civil rights movement in the US as being subversive trouble makers, until they changed things enough, and continue to push for change.
Progress is whack-a-mole to the power of infinity.
Sad, dehumanised,complace
nt compliance is accepting defeat without ever leaving your armchair.
A lack of compassion for human suffering is psychopathy.
kkj
says...
12:47am Thu 30 Apr 09
Have you previously protested against any other defence companies or are you a professional agitator who jumps on the nearest band wagon?
kkj
says...
12:58am Thu 30 Apr 09
chris elmes
says...
1:20am Thu 30 Apr 09
"those who are not with us are against us" QED
stan bailey
says...
7:08am Thu 30 Apr 09
Osama bin there wrote:Mmm she didn't respond to my previous question. She quotes Wilkipedia as a reference, universities advise against using it, as it is not reliable.
Maggie Thatcher wrote:You never answer anyone's points that are a bit 'tricky', but just rant on and on, very often making completely unwarranted personal attacks on people who's idealogy you have no clue about. As soon as someone asks you a difficult question you either ignore it, or hide behind the ludicrous shield that if you aren't pro smash edo, then you must be ok with children being killed in Palestine.
Why would anyone but EDO be "concerned" about the decommissioning. from the horse's mouth: http://wikileaks.org /wiki/Decommissionin g_the_arms_trade I'll remind you again. No one but the Argus has suggested that MayDay will be an exercise in ransacking Brighton. Aaaah, some has finally rolled out the age-old "Well if it wasn't me doing it. it'd just be someone else!". Just fancy if Ian Huntley tried that one? "If it weren't me rape-murdering kids, it'd just be someone else doing it" or "Why bother sending Huntley down, someone else will just take his place"... hey why bother having morality or a legal system at all??? If it weren't for people like Smash EDO the arms trade would be free to sell torture weapons, to sell land mines, there be no blacklist of countries, no one would be bothering to close loopholes. The Raytheon 9 won their court case. Their decommissioning in Derry was deemed legal. So, these action do have an effect. Perhaps not with most people who have no knowledge of the issues and get all their info from rags like the Argus. But it gets heard by people who can make a change, and slowly change happens. Which is why people like BAe pay private spooks to infiltrate activist networks, and to engage in all sort of dirty tricks, including pretending to be an outraged member of the public on public forums... But hey, if it weren't for protests and direct action you'd all still be legal property of your local lord. Kids would still be up chimneys, and you'd still be required to doff your caps to gentlemen in the street. That the kind of world you want? But if you are such a conscientious and sage person, what the hell are you doing here defending a shady weapons company... slow times in Hades? Or is the moniker an admission?
There are plenty of us here that aren't ok with children being killed in Palestine and also aren't ok with the aims of smash edo! It is possible to have that point of view - but in your 'fascist state' of mind I doubt that would be allowed.
For all her faults and they were many, the real Maggie Thatcher would not talk on such poorly thought out agenda
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:04am Thu 30 Apr 09
I think you must live on Planet Daily Mail.
Of course, other companies who kill innocent people get targeted. There is a whole movement against the whole arms trade (as opposed to national defence, because the two are very very different issues).
And you are either completely deluded or you think us completely gullible if you think that arming an F16 to be used against civilians is in any way defensible.
Especially considering there are stacks of ICRC & HRW reports on the IAF DELIBERATELY TARGETTING CIVILLIANS. So your 'minimising loss of life' nonsense doesn't wash.
Furthermore, dropping bombs on civilian areas is a war crime under Geneva Protocols 4- irrespective of accuracy.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:21am Thu 30 Apr 09
are you trying to do a Paxo on me? Because if you are you have to at least remind me what the hell your question was before I can answer it.
I don't know what your question was/is/will be.
Simple as that.
It's usual to cite critical sources if you wish to dispute accuracy... I note you failed to do that. What was that you were saying about academic protocols?
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:25am Thu 30 Apr 09
chris elmes wrote:So far the only people saying that are the Argus! You'll not that no one from Smash EDO has said anything of the such.
Oh hum, so the police and protesters are going to have a punch up,some heads are going to be broken(on both sides)the IPCC will have a load of complaints and there will be compo. Nothing else will change, EDO will sell their Wares and make a profit and the Jews and Canaanites will carry on slaughtering each other as they have for the past 4,000 years and will in all likelyhood continue to do so for all eternity because there are no innocents as far as the Zionists and the Jehadis are concerned.
"those who are not with us are against us" QED
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:44am Thu 30 Apr 09
Also note that Israel is armed to the teeth by the West, whereas Palestine hasn't even got a proper army let alone proper weapons.
It isn't a war it's a genocide of attrition the slaughter sees an overwhelming number of innocent Palestinians killed using Western equipment from companies like EDO, ITT, Raytheon, BAe, LM etc.
If people stopped arming Israel it would stop.
Apart from that there are war crimes issues in relation to the bombing targets of the USAF & RAF in Afghanistan and Iraq too.
Osama bin there
says...
9:07am Thu 30 Apr 09
TheInsider wrote:No answer to this eloquent posting, Maggie?
Anyone who places an unecessary burden on public services poses a threat to children's lives. It may not be bombs but all the same a child's life is a life.
When cash-strapped councils are cutting social services budgets and children's services because they are having to find cash to clear up graffiti, clear streets of stones and rocks thrown by protesters and pay staff overtime to help marshall what threatens to be an uncontrolled protest, then you can take the moral high ground about killing kids Maggie.
When the police have to throw every officer at the event because there is a sad inevitability that these people will not behave, there are dozens of children in homes in the city where domestic violence takes place, who will be at risk. Brighton and Hove has the highest number of "gold" risk cases in the region...that's women who are at risk of death from a partner. They are also at risk but perhaps you are happy to sacrifice others for a moral high ground.
The same goes for the ambulance service who are on standby to deal with this event. They are on standby when their budgets are at a stretch and when swine flu poses a serious risk to children and the vulnerable.
But no. Protesters don't think about protesting in a different way - in a way that does not burden already over-stretched services. No. They seem happy to put other people's lives at risk for their own means and call themselves antagonistic and aggressive names which threaten ordinary people - Smash EDO.
And if you think EDO are the only company in this town "supporting" military action then you are very naive.
Perhaps you should consider closing the unis engineering departments for educating people who then go to work in defence, or try closing every mobile phone shop for providing telecommunications to the military, target nurses who offer re-hab services to the military, civilian airlines for flying MI5 agents to the Middle East. The list goes on. If you knew the extent of association, you would not be bothered with EDO which is actually probably a smokescreen to keep you off the scent of something much bigger anyway...out of town site. How convenient.
These big companies learned a great deal from animal protests in the 80s.
The campaign makes no attempt at inclusion and gaining support from ordinary people and the growing resentment from local people suggests the campaigners have failed to convey their message successfully. A lost campaign is often a lost cause.
No, thought not.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:26am Thu 30 Apr 09
No one but the Argus has said there will be any riot and even then they have just inferred it in an underhand way.
So, so far no one but the Argus has predicted any effort to cause a burden on fire & medics. Public order is what the police are for! They have made aware of the event; if they need more numbers they draft more in.. they are quite welcome to stay away- in fact it will probably be a more peaceful event of the police stay away! Certainly less need for ambulances...
People are already active against the use of private aircraft and airports for military and illegal usage (rendition). So, no valid point.
People are active against the militarisation and corporatisation of education.
There is great awareness of how much the arms trade & militarism meshes with the rest of society... you'd have to be a special kind of ignorant not to realise that considering many of us have personal ties to forces, academia and the defence industry (shock horror, we are normal people who come from Britain too!)
Lord only knows what the author is on about regarding smokescreens, but logically if it is so well hidden, then no one could possibly be active against- so it's a lame argument.
Smash EDO is just a group of people who agree on basic issues. Anyone is welcome to join (so long as they agree to that groups aims) otherwise they are more than welcome to set up their own parallel group and even work totally independently of Smash EDO. That is how activism works, and why we laugh when police and media talk of "spokespersons", "organisers", "leaders" and "ringleaders". They are totally irrelevant concepts.
So again no valid point.
I didn't comment this post, is that it was so naively wide of the mark, I'd've had to write a whole screed again...
And I didn't realise I was here to be interrogated!
;-)
mkb
says...
9:27am Thu 30 Apr 09
If these parts are to be banned from production, what then for us if we become the target of war?
Do we simply put our hands up & say to ourselves 'If only we had the bits needed to make our bombs, we would have stood half a chance of fighting this war but I remember a group got the production of parts banned so we'll just have to submit'
Every action has a reaction and this group in my opinion are very narrow-minded & have failed to look at the bigger picture.
And before you reply yet again maggie about the killing of children, I have 2 of my own & would hope that if GB were to be invaded, that we would have ALL the necessary equipment to retaliate for the security of each person in our country - even you!
Osama bin there
says...
9:41am Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:You call Insider's posting naive?
Osama: No one but the Argus has said there will be any riot and even then they have just inferred it in an underhand way. So, so far no one but the Argus has predicted any effort to cause a burden on fire & medics. Public order is what the police are for! They have made aware of the event; if they need more numbers they draft more in.. they are quite welcome to stay away- in fact it will probably be a more peaceful event of the police stay away! Certainly less need for ambulances... People are already active against the use of private aircraft and airports for military and illegal usage (rendition). So, no valid point. People are active against the militarisation and corporatisation of education. There is great awareness of how much the arms trade & militarism meshes with the rest of society... you'd have to be a special kind of ignorant not to realise that considering many of us have personal ties to forces, academia and the defence industry (shock horror, we are normal people who come from Britain too!) Lord only knows what the author is on about regarding smokescreens, but logically if it is so well hidden, then no one could possibly be active against- so it's a lame argument. Smash EDO is just a group of people who agree on basic issues. Anyone is welcome to join (so long as they agree to that groups aims) otherwise they are more than welcome to set up their own parallel group and even work totally independently of Smash EDO. That is how activism works, and why we laugh when police and media talk of "spokespersons", "organisers", "leaders" and "ringleaders". They are totally irrelevant concepts. So again no valid point. I didn't comment this post, is that it was so naively wide of the mark, I'd've had to write a whole screed again... And I didn't realise I was here to be interrogated! ;-)
I think you need to look in the mirror.
Your arrogance is astounding.
You have singlehandedly done more than anyone to damage any credibility that Smash EDO may have, in these columns.
Well done.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:41am Thu 30 Apr 09
you kind of went into that backwards.
This isn't about the banning of equipment, this is about upholding international law and preventing war crimes.
If the bomb racks were never used in war crimes there would be no call for EDO to be shut.
I have personally have no issues with the British Forces having the right equipment for 'the defence of the realm'
Ideally, I'd like to live in a world where that kind of thing isn't necessary, but pragmatically, that is a long way off yet.
But, I also don't agree with British kids being plucked from housing estates and pimped Downing Street to be used as canon fodder in the American Empires illegal wars- and then being treated like dirt for it too.
These parts are used for war crimes. It's the war crimes that are the issue. It's the profiting from it that's the issue. It's the 'no in my backyard' that is the issue.
Before Thatcher Royal Ordinance was owned by the public, now we have a free for all of companies flooding the world willy nilly with death machines, and it usually civillians that die or are maimed.
The UK is the world's number one arms dealer.
I am ashamed of that.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:43am Thu 30 Apr 09
it was very naive. Because as I pointed out the bulk of it was irrelevant as those areas he raised are already being covered.
That's not arrogance, just plain fact: the author was ignorant of that facts.
mkb
says...
9:51am Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:But the manufacturer is not to blame if the parts they produce are used to commit war crimes!
mkb, you kind of went into that backwards. This isn't about the banning of equipment, this is about upholding international law and preventing war crimes. If the bomb racks were never used in war crimes there would be no call for EDO to be shut. I have personally have no issues with the British Forces having the right equipment for 'the defence of the realm' Ideally, I'd like to live in a world where that kind of thing isn't necessary, but pragmatically, that is a long way off yet. But, I also don't agree with British kids being plucked from housing estates and pimped Downing Street to be used as canon fodder in the American Empires illegal wars- and then being treated like dirt for it too. These parts are used for war crimes. It's the war crimes that are the issue. It's the profiting from it that's the issue. It's the 'no in my backyard' that is the issue. Before Thatcher Royal Ordinance was owned by the public, now we have a free for all of companies flooding the world willy nilly with death machines, and it usually civillians that die or are maimed. The UK is the world's number one arms dealer. I am ashamed of that.
In the same way as the motor industry are not to blame if someone decides to use their vehicle in a smash & grab say. Or is the factory that make Brighton & Hove buses to blame for the deaths caused by accidents involving the bus? Maybe Roger French is to blame for buying the bus then.
The parts on their own are not a threat - it is only when they are used incorrectly that the threat exists so targeting one particle in the equation will not solve the problem.
The NIMBY reference suggests that if these parts were to be made overseas then you would have no problem with that - very noble I must say - NOT!
worthinglad
says...
10:06am Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie seems to be unaware of a thing called Democracy, whereby anybody can put their viewsw to the public and asked to be elected on those views. If she had any confidence that she had public support for her views that is what her and the Smash EDO campaign would do.
We all know that her and the puerile, adolescent Smash the EDO Campaign have little or miniscule public support. That being said why should the residents of Brighton have yet another day disrupted by what they call protest, but most of the rest of us `see as intimidation and provocation. A protest could take place as a rally at the Level for example or Hove Lawns where these things were traditionally held by people and campaigns that had real political and identifiable agendas..
But you only have to look at their own footage posted on U tube and you see what the real purpose of these events are, they are to provide excitement for what are mostly the disaffected , alienated and unemployable youth of today. They are one level up the evolutionary and educational scale from the Football Hooligans of the 80’s
The police should once again give them the benefit of the doubt on Monday, but once their real intentions and actions become plain they should be arrested and charged as necessary. I have a lot of sympathy for the vast majority of the police who will spend their day being taunted and provoked by these people (watch the U Tube footage) , but please and I am sure they will do not retaliate as a small minority of the G20 police did.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:10am Thu 30 Apr 09
my last reply never appeared... so I'll try again.
Again a motor vehicle is not designed to kill, a bomb rack is.
It's EDO's guilt & shame if the knowingly supply and therefore assist war crimes. And selling parts to Israel that they know will be used on civilians (as history has shown time and time and time again) is a war crime itself... and by extension a domestic crime (if the police were ever to take up the challenge to uphold our obligations to international law.. and arrest Blair & Alistair Campbell too and seek to extradite Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld et al).
That aside there also issues in EDO profiting from the USA's illegal wars, and wider issues about the immoral cundict of the arms trade at large.
The NIMBY quip meant that I feel obligated to stop war crimes in my own back yard. Logically if EDO were ousted and set up somewhere else, I'd be a lot more limited in my scope on influence, and could expect someone else to look after their back yard too. Simple.
Targetting nothing will achieve nothing. You would probably have said to Rosa PArks, 'Just get out your seat because you are going to change nothing in this little bus'.
It's the sea versus the cliff: gradual steady erosion, and the accumulation of small victories.
Apart from that as I pointed out a few posts up, this is a sustained campaign from all side, not just one bunch of 'soap dodgers' in Sussex- across the world, across society. Just because the Argus doesn't see fit to report on it, doesn't make it go away.
http://www.caat.org.
uk/
A good place to start.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:14am Thu 30 Apr 09
You have ANY faith in 'democracy', can you point to a single politician you trust to be on YOUR side and not just oiling the cogs for the rich to screw for more money???
I'm all for REAL democracy: real people making decision for themselves; not some bunch of chinless public schoolboys and working class traitors with two Jaguars and country estates.
In this country you get all the freedom you can afford.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:24am Thu 30 Apr 09
The only reason there was an outcry about the G20 is that they finally killed someone and it even worse there wasn't the excuse of 'he was just a troublemaking soapdodger', though they did indeed try to smear the dead man.
I think it's fair to assume that the coppers don't take of their epaulette numbers and don't start kicking off on peaceful protesters without a nod from their superiors and their superiors superiors.
Right, and now I'm beginning to wonder who the "workshy soapdodgers" really are here, and getting on with me day.
kkj
says...
10:48am Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:I know all this, I was asking about YOU. I am interested in your history of political protest - not protest in general.
KKJ,
I think you must live on Planet Daily Mail.
Of course, other companies who kill innocent people get targeted. There is a whole movement against the whole arms trade (as opposed to national defence, because the two are very very different issues).
And you are either completely deluded or you think us completely gullible if you think that arming an F16 to be used against civilians is in any way defensible.
Especially considering there are stacks of ICRC & HRW reports on the IAF DELIBERATELY TARGETTING CIVILLIANS. So your 'minimising loss of life' nonsense doesn't wash.
Furthermore, dropping bombs on civilian areas is a war crime under Geneva Protocols 4- irrespective of accuracy.
This from SMASH EDO's website:
We are residents of Brighton who marched against the war. We were sickened to learn that a company in our home town was not only profiting from, but making possible the illegal and immoral slaughter in Iraq. Smash EDO is a grassroots response to EDO's complicity in murderous crimes - a banner under which people opposed to those crimes can rally.
Note the reference to IRAQ; not Israel. Note that today sees the official end to Britain's role in Iraq.
worthinglad
says...
10:48am Thu 30 Apr 09
When you talk about real people making decisions for themselves, what you you really mean is people with the same views as yourselves taking action without real public support. I daresay there any number of Racist Bigots who would also like to take direct action, but the forces of democracy prevent them doing so, I can't imagine for one moment that you would support their right to direct action, but you seem to think that your right to direct action is sacrosanct. All the rhetoric about Chinless wonders is just that rhetoric, if you don't like the chinless wonders, you can see them off every five years. I do wonder why people without chins are particularly offensive to you, no doubt you see yourself in the vanguard of a vast proletarian campaign led by the morally pure such as yourself. If you read and tried to understood the views of the vast majority of posters here you would have understood that you are a self appointed clique with no public support here at all.
I also noted in a previous post that you took Rosa pARKS as a shining example to you. You may not have grasped that Rosa and any black person in the Southern United States had suffered 90 years of oppression since the civil war and was still suffering oppression at that time and could not see any end to it. She had very limited democratic rights, in theory black people could vote, but very few were able to do so. A very different situation to what you are facing. I also don't remember her smashing buses up or for that matter intimidating the employees of the bus company. Her`stand and that of her colleagues was far braver and justified than that of your puerile undemocratic campaign.
Brighton is sick and tired of your antics go and play elsewhere
Maggie Thatcher
says...
11:59am Thu 30 Apr 09
That sounds chillingly like a creepy detective taking. All I'll be saying (again) is that I'm not from/in Smash EDO, but I do support them.
worthinglad,
I personally have no interest in the totally corrupt electoral system of the UK myself, but you feel free to go see if you can win an anti-Smash EDO campaign if you want to... is that what you were suggesting?
Oh and you sound just like the people who shouted down teh Civil Rights Movement- I guess you are forgetting that that movement encompassed much more than just Parks and King, and also encompassed direct action, and even sometimes deadly force.
But as far as I understand it Smash EDO has a duly elected councillor:
http://www.newstates
man.com/writers/mari
na_pepper
What makes your armchair ranting any more democratic than Smash EDO???
No public support??? Hell, decommissioners have had even judicial support:
Google 'raytheon 9' and 'Pitstop Ploghshares'
let's face it most people on this thread really have no idea what they are "discussing" and just ranting off at some notional stereotypes planted in their heads by rags like the Argus.
At least do a bit of reading.
Tye
says...
12:21pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Maggies got into a bit of a "tizz" and the truth is becomeing clearer.
worthinglad, You have ANY faith in 'democracy', can you point to a single politician you trust to be on YOUR side and not just oiling the cogs for the rich to screw for more money??? I'm all for REAL democracy: real people making decision for themselves; not some bunch of chinless public schoolboys and working class traitors with two Jaguars and country estates. In this country you get all the freedom you can afford.
Her (and her unwashed scroungers) minority views are not taken seriously so they impose their views by "peaceful decommissioning" in this case and by shouting, threatning, bullying
Its how dictators come into power in certain countries - they don't believe in Democracy either -
as someone said without a touch of irony :( I will not tolerate intolerance
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:31pm Thu 30 Apr 09
I wholly agree in REAL democracy, I don't believe in the system that we have now full of corrupt public schoolboys giving their chums backhanders, is what any sane person would call democracy.
A dictatorship removes power, I'm all for giving MORE power to everyone.
Imagine a proper democracy where we could actually sack our MPs when they were doing bad job!
Do you really think the current system is anything approaching fair and represents most of the views around you?
Ironically a lot of dictators make a big show of their 'democratic elections'.
"Minority views"... like I said above: feel free to run on an anti-Smash EDO ticket in the next elections- apathy cuts both ways.
I seriously doubt given all the facts, the majority of people would want a factory that turns a profit killing children in their backyard.
Problem is, the media will never run all the facts, the government won't allow arms companies to be prosecuted...
I think the majority of people never even give these issues any thought because they are usually too busy, or distracting themselves from their drudgery with escapist TV... which is fair enough. I've been there too.
stan bailey
says...
1:51pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Middlebury College’s history department banned the use of Wikipedia as a source after several students used the same misinformation from the site in their exams. Even Wikipedia’s founder, Jimmy Wales, discouraged its use for serious academic research, according to The Chronicle of Higher Education.
Stan, are you trying to do a Paxo on me? Because if you are you have to at least remind me what the hell your question was before I can answer it. I don't know what your question was/is/will be. Simple as that. It's usual to cite critical sources if you wish to dispute accuracy... I note you failed to do that. What was that you were saying about academic protocols?
El Burro
says...
2:13pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Why are you picking on a small entity to start off with, like EDO instead of BAE whom actually are directly involved in the logistics of warfare? because you are all cowards whom have a severely underinformed government phobia. If I catch one of you on your own, I will give you an awful telling off on Monday, believe me.
MoreMikey, EDO makes bomb delivery systems. They are needed to drop the bombs from the aircraft. They are still making an integral part of the bomb system. So don't split hairs, The work in bomb technology. The make weapons. KKJ: Yes, very successful. And then move on to another murderous company (Raytheon, BAe, Lockheed MArtin etc etc). And so on and so forth... and if they aren't all shut down before I drop dead, someone else will carry the torch. And if the companies move operations abroad, then we hope others take up the fight, and we push for international pressure... Remember how people painted the black civil rights movement in the US as being subversive trouble makers, until they changed things enough, and continue to push for change. Progress is whack-a-mole to the power of infinity. Sad, dehumanised,complace nt compliance is accepting defeat without ever leaving your armchair. A lack of compassion for human suffering is psychopathy.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
2:17pm Thu 30 Apr 09
I'll simplify what I said for you:
It's not enough just to say that something is wrong, or even just why it is wrong, you have to also be able to demonstrate why it is wrong. Normally this is done either by citing other peer reviewed work or submitting your work for peer review.
So, unless you can tell me WHY my Wikipedia link was wrong, and demonstrate your point, you really have nothing to say.
You got anything to say about baby killers and war criminals in your back yard?
Or is ad hominem attacks on my bibliography your only concern?
Carl Bugenhagen
says...
2:22pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
2:40pm Thu 30 Apr 09
BAe are targeted too.
You'd know that if you bothered doing a bit of reading:
http://www.caat.org.
uk/
And you'd also know that Downing Street stopped a corruption investigation into BAe dead in its tracks because Saudi Arabia more or less threatened us with suicide bombers if we didn't.
THAT is the kind of companies these are, and the kind of bad company they drag us into.
kkj
says...
4:26pm Thu 30 Apr 09
kkj,
That sounds chillingly like a creepy detective taking. All I'll be saying (again) is that I'm not from/in Smash EDO, but I do support them.
Had youread this site more recently than the last couple of days, and on more subjects than the SMASH EDO street party, you would plainly see that I am in no way a detective, or connected to the security forces in any way. In the past, I too was a protester, see my earlier post I was once an idealist, now a pragmatist.
Of course killing babies in indefensible, and as far as I've read no-one has tried to defend it. However, a lot of what you post implies that EDO/MBM's prime motivation for their trade is to kill babies, children, civilians etc.
Not everything is black and white; there are many shaes of grey
Maggie Thatcher
says...
4:58pm Thu 30 Apr 09
oh wow man, we are like almost twins then eh, daddio!
Erm, what were you protesting against, the ban of fox hunting or the abolition of National Conscription?
Doubt if it were anything more left of that if you are writing apologia for war crimes profiteers.
It's 100% irrelevant what their emotional impetus is. If they sell weapons to known war criminals, they become war criminals. Irrespective of whether they UK Gvt allows such things to be properly investigated or not (and almost always not) or whether or not Israel is on a proscribed list or not.
Is it any mitigation if the smack dealer's motive for cutting his gear with brick dust wasn't to induce a pulmonary embolism but rather to maximise his profits...
I love how much of this thread falls into 2 categories:
1. How stupid 'soapdodgers' deserve a good kicking.
2. How EDO really aren't bad people.
Would I be cynical in wondering if I am mainly conversing with Sussex Police and EDO employees here?
Would they really be so bereft of better things to do? Or so desperate for their reputation???
Or does the Argus only sell to people who can produce UKIP membership cards???
Bog Vern
says...
6:08pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Bog Vern
says...
7:12pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Please take this as the way it is intended - it is meant genuinely and is not meant in a bad way.
You obviously have very strong feelings with this and I cannot knock you for that. The process of changing people's viewpoints, altering society and changing injustices is due to negotiation and persuasion.
You really have failed to do this with your threads. Yes we can all cut and paste snapshots of the web, repeat our viewpoints time and again but you have not given the perception of being open to other's thoughts and really, rather rudely, dismissed them as zealots or Stalinist supports. I really don't think a lot of people on here that are.
Perception is a real tool in changing society, not just facts or comment. You have set your self out as being a person who shouts and stamps their feet whilst having your eyes and ears shut to others viewpoints.
This does your cause no favours. You have distanced yourself from any 'floating voters' out their and therefore not done anything to positively raise your profile or gather support for what you are doing.
You are self perpetuating the 'soap dodger' persona of those who are perceived to go to these rallies.
You have caused a wider chasm between the two 'sides'. Even worse - you have dragged middle England over to the anti - Smash EDO side.
With that - you have failed.
I expect a rant back.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
8:34pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Nice Lord HawHAw impression, but what makes you think I was soliciting floating voters?
This place is a cesspit of reactionary curmudgeons, I'd no more try and recruit from here than I would from a BNP meeting.
In the case of murder, I'm not open to a middle ground. Are you?
LMAO!
Bog Vern
says...
8:48pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Without the middle ground - you will fail.
History teaches us that. People who cannot take criticism are the most insecure. Search the web for that.
Carry on ranting and achieve nothing. Without the populous vote and support you will never change a thing. That is called Politics - search the web of that.
Farewell loser
worthinglad
says...
9:02pm Thu 30 Apr 09
I am sorry to here that you find the democratic system corrupt and unrepresentative.
I assume you mean unrepresentative of your views, the point about democracy is that it is meant to be a synthesis of all views not just yours, I wonder whether that lies in the reason for your dissatisfaction. However we will never accurately know the views of the vast majority of the population unless they are tested. With all respect the circus the Smash EDO campaign engages in does not seek to find the views of the vast majority of the population. To be frank it is the might is right ethos of campaigning.
On that basis you feel you have the right to disrupt the bank holiday of vast numbers of Brightonians Without seeking their views. That’s why the Smash EDO Campaign ultimately will remain unsuccessful, because it has f- off the vast majority of Brightonians.
It says a lot about the mentality of your group that you think anybody against you or your campaign is influenced by the editorial stance of the Argus or it’s reporting. The Argus is the only large local circulation newspaper and it does run this website, which incidentally you seem to have no compunction using, However the Argus is not the only source of my information, I have taken the trouble to view the Smash EDO website and I have viewed the clips on U Tube posted by Smash EDO sympathisers. My views and I daresay the views of the wholly negative response on this website are my own not those of the Argus, to be honest I would be surprised if the Argus had a political view point, we are not talking about the Spectator, Marxism Today, Daily Telegraph or the New Statesman.
Similarly your paranoia that anybody that doesn’t agree with you must be a stooge of the Police or EDO is contemptible and stupid.
Getting back to the Civil rights movement government and society changed because of the non violent protests of millions not the violent actions of a few thousands. The violent actions of a few thousands would have created a reaction from the government. That I am afraid is also the problem of your self appointed protest movement.
I know some of Smash EDO activists see themselves as Martyrs for this cause. Believe me they will not be Nelson Mandelas leaving prison to widespread public acclaim, they will be seen as foolish self deluded individuals ignored by and irrelevant to political history.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:04pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Search the dictionary for that.
I doubt you even realise what the word means:
http://dictionary.re
ference.com/browse/p
opulism
I didn't realise we were in a race!
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:17pm Thu 30 Apr 09
You and your 'majority' are quite welcome and within your rights to counterdemonstrate and even blockade the Smash EDO demo.
Unlike you, I realise that 99% of the people of Brighton and even Britain really care a fig either way.
Which is how scumbags like EDO, Raytheon, BAe get off with murder.
A thread full of Woodrow Wyatts represents only the majority of of people that lurk around the "apolitical" (rofl) Argus.
If you aren't aware of the lengths these companies go to to subvert protest then I guess you need to read up on what just happened with and has been ongoing Plane Stupid, what happened with CAAT.
Hey, I know someone who works for a mere cable TV company who gets employees to infiltrate forums to spread propaganda!
What that old cliché about paranoia again?
Hey just look at the ridiculous excuse for journalism at the top the thread!
Keep voting for the Old Boys Network!
Bog Vern
says...
10:01pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie is talking sense - ROFL
Maggie comes up with an original statement - URL 404
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:09pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Bog Vern wrote:What next? "Ner ner nerner ner smelly pants!!!"???
Maggie makes an adult post - LMAO
Maggie is talking sense - ROFL
Maggie comes up with an original statement - URL 404
Sniggering
worthinglad
says...
11:23pm Thu 30 Apr 09
I suspect that arranging a counter demonstration, judging by the juvenile antics of Smash EDO I’ve seen on U tube, will inevitably lead to violence. I didn’t get the idea from those clips that rational debate was their strong point or forte. I will leave the job to the police to control the supporters of Smash EDO.
Is there anybody on this post that thinks a counter demonstration is the appropriate response to the Smash EDO campaign?
I am not here to defend the Argus or the standard of their Journalism. Having lived in smaller provincial towns such as Worthing the Argus compares favourably. I am not sure what you are complaining about, are you suggesting that they make things up or they don’t give your views equal coverage with the police/EDO or what you no doubt perceive as the establishment or they editorialise against you. I don’t imagine for one moment that many people (a) Will read the Argus editorial (b) Will have their views formed by it. You surely realise that you must be naive if you thought the Argus would support Smash EDO. Please elaborate your complaint. My view is that the standard of Argus journalism compares favourably with the standards of political debate/argument or tactics of Smash EDO.
Just because some people are out to get you doesn’t mean that you are not paranoid, please take it from me that you have little or no support from the vast majority of Brightonians or I suspect most people in the UK, we are not paid stooges of EDO the police or the secret police. We have views of our own, reactionary in your terms or otherwise.
I and many others support things as they are, we are not agitating for change. If you want to change things before you engage in disrupting the lives of may people, test your views democratically, have some respect for the 95% of people or more that don’t care about international issues but do care about having their lives disrupted.
We have all read a about Westminster and the institutionalised greed that seems to be endemic amongst some of our MPs, it is an imperfect institution. You and the believers in direct action, which most of us see as intimidation and bullying, are offering us something far worse anarchy instigated but not controlled by an irresponsible minority. You don’t seem to care about public opinion and seem to believe that the public’s views count for nothing. If you can point out a better system of government please let me know where it has worked.
MoreMikey
says...
11:32pm Thu 30 Apr 09
On the one hand, we could then be endlessly self-righteous. On the other, who'd want to be painted with THAT brush?
So, no, absolutely not.
And, Worthinglad, a nicely put post.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
11:42pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Spain, Paris, Berlin, London
Which would have blossomed if it weren't under massive onslaught.
Any more uneducated clichés?
MoreMikey
says...
11:44pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Uh, what? I don't understand your banter.
"If you can point out a better system of government please let me know where it has worked.":
Spain, Paris, Berlin, London
Which would have blossomed if it weren't under massive onslaught.
Any more uneducated clichés?
kkj
says...
11:58pm Thu 30 Apr 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:What did I protest against?
kkj,
oh wow man, we are like almost twins then eh, daddio!
Erm, what were you protesting against, the ban of fox hunting or the abolition of National Conscription?
Doubt if it were anything more left of that if you are writing apologia for war crimes profiteers.
It's 100% irrelevant what their emotional impetus is. If they sell weapons to known war criminals, they become war criminals. Irrespective of whether they UK Gvt allows such things to be properly investigated or not (and almost always not) or whether or not Israel is on a proscribed list or not.
Is it any mitigation if the smack dealer's motive for cutting his gear with brick dust wasn't to induce a pulmonary embolism but rather to maximise his profits...
I love how much of this thread falls into 2 categories:
1. How stupid 'soapdodgers' deserve a good kicking.
2. How EDO really aren't bad people.
Would I be cynical in wondering if I am mainly conversing with Sussex Police and EDO employees here?
Would they really be so bereft of better things to do? Or so desperate for their reputation???
Or does the Argus only sell to people who can produce UKIP membership cards???
Nuclear weapons
Nuclear power
Vivisection
Education spending cuts
amongst others.
So, obviously a Daily mail reading - UKIP card holding - EDO employed - policeman.
As far as I recall I've not written apologia for anything - perhaps you can indicate where I have, and I can respond more fully.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:17am Fri 1 May 09
but seemingly your right-on compassion doesn't extend to the thousands of dead in foreign countries, however, your more complex world-view allows you to see 'shades of grey' on the morality of selling the technology used to carry out the murders.
Just imagine if an F16 killed you entire family. How would you feel about the company that make the bomb delivery system?
Shades of grey?
stickman
says...
12:26am Fri 1 May 09
Well I don't agree with your stand on Smash EDO but enough of that now from me I think... I am interested in your REAL democracy stuff though. I too have no confidence or respect for any party and can't bring myself to vote for any of these idiots. There must be a better way. Got any good links for something?
Maggie Thatcher
says...
12:48am Fri 1 May 09
I'm an anarchist, so we just generally agree stuff between us and bicker a lot and call it consensus hahaha!
You may find this a good little insight into the bigger picture:
http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Democracy#F
orms
From what I gather the Green Party is still as close as your going to get Brighton (not sure if you have any viable socialist party there... I know there are PLENTY of socialists) to 'non-hierarchical' democracy.
The other thing you could do is run as an independent.. perhaps starting as a councillor... your local electoral office can supply with with details.
I have been so desperate over the last decade I have had to go against my principles and actually (tactically vote) and it must be bad when anarchists start participating in that system.
If you are interested in anarchism (**** I'm proselytising now... )
http://www.infoshop.
org/faq/index.html
If you haven't read up on anarchism before, you probably have a completely false picture.
kkj
says...
12:54am Fri 1 May 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Should such an event happen I doubt I shall be focused enough to think about the individual companies making specific components.
kkj,
but seemingly your right-on compassion doesn't extend to the thousands of dead in foreign countries, however, your more complex world-view allows you to see 'shades of grey' on the morality of selling the technology used to carry out the murders.
Just imagine if an F16 killed you entire family. How would you feel about the company that make the bomb delivery system?
Shades of grey?
You might just as well ask how I would feel about the company that made the tyres that allowed it to taxi and take-off, or the company that made the webbing for the pilot's seat-belt
stan bailey
says...
7:16am Fri 1 May 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
9:53am Fri 1 May 09
sidestepped the question and... still spinning the fact they make bomb delivery systems and not dual use parts...
Do you work EDO or know someone that does?
So, if someone supplied the IAF with tyres knowing they going to be used to commit murder, you would find nothing wrong with that?
Funny because in this country the police would charge you, if they could prove you were fully aware of your part in a murder.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:03am Fri 1 May 09
stan bailey wrote:You still here Stan, and still not coming up with anything but insults???
The odd thing about Maggie is that the countries that she appears to support would have her wearing a burkha and would keep her mouth shut, ... maybe she does have a point after all
Nice racial stereotypes. I don't support 'counties' let alone countries that impose Sharia law. So what the hell are you talking about???
Besides, even I did support Palestine as some kind of nebulous concept (as opposed to support human rights for all), if you knew the first thing about them, you would know that have no Taliban-like laws. women are not forced to veil in Palestine...
However, if you really knew your onions you'd know that Britain supported, funded and trained the Taliban in the 80s and that British arms companies supply weapons to our ally Saudi Arabia, which is one of the most repressive Sharia legal systems going... oh, and the epicentre on Islamacist terrorism.
You'd know that Saudi threatened the UK with suicide bombers if the governments didn't drop a corruption case against BAe.
But hey Stan, don't let anything burst that parochial, xenophobic bubble you have isolated yourself in.
kkj
says...
10:46am Fri 1 May 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Not sidestepped at all. Its a hypothetical question which has no right or wrong answer.
kkj,
sidestepped the question and... still spinning the fact they make bomb delivery systems and not dual use parts...
Do you work EDO or know someone that does?
So, if someone supplied the IAF with tyres knowing they going to be used to commit murder, you would find nothing wrong with that?
Funny because in this country the police would charge you, if they could prove you were fully aware of your part in a murder.
You've sidestepped just about every question I've asked though.
I have no connection with EDO and know no-one who does. I have never said I condone murder, or conspiracy to murder.
I do not support Israel in its bombing of Gaza. I do not support British involvement in either Iraq or Afghanistan either for that matter.
Maggie Thatcher
says...
10:55am Fri 1 May 09
Maggie Thatcher
says...
11:00am Fri 1 May 09
You have done nothing but adopt a guerilla position of snipe then relocate.
So, tell me finally how can you occupy a position of not condoning murder, but be happy with having a factory that supplies (credibly with full knowledge) known murderers with equipment to be used in murder?
Because I can't see how is can be done with falling off the end of sophistry into full-blown delusion/mendacity.
El Burro
says...
1:49pm Fri 1 May 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Why are you getting involved in an ideological war? The human race is on the earth for a mere flicker of the eye, and you are lucky to live in a country where you are not oppressed because of your religion, you are not going to starve to death, or die of easily preventable diseases, yet you still complain. I think you should move to the middle east, and carry on your protests there. But you won't do that will you? Oh no, because EDO are an easy target, and you can live in England without a care in the world, on the basis that your misguided and distorted views of politics are actually doing some good for the world. Get a job, a life and an education.
What questions have I side-stepped??? You have done nothing but adopt a guerilla position of snipe then relocate. So, tell me finally how can you occupy a position of not condoning murder, but be happy with having a factory that supplies (credibly with full knowledge) known murderers with equipment to be used in murder? Because I can't see how is can be done with falling off the end of sophistry into full-blown delusion/mendacity.
Bog Vern
says...
4:10pm Fri 1 May 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:I live in the real world, you live in a textbook driven utopia.
Bog Vern wrote:What next? "Ner ner nerner ner smelly pants!!!"???
Maggie makes an adult post - LMAO
Maggie is talking sense - ROFL
Maggie comes up with an original statement - URL 404
Sniggering
Wake up and smell the coffee - the world is not as you see it, a perfect world will never happen and there will be injustices in the world.
Anarchy is a joke - what a solution to things that is! What a juvenile you are.
Communism failed, capitalism hasn't exactly won a BAFTA recently but hey - its the real world.
Go to Israel and make your protests. Will you? No
I presume you are having to debrief your time at college at the moment - before your tea and homework.
Please go out there in the real world and stop writing about things you do not understand.
Humans run the world therefore mistakes will be made. Get on with it. You can stay up late tonight - tomorrow is Saturday!!!
stan bailey
says...
5:32pm Fri 1 May 09
Bog Vern wrote:is Maggie coming to brighton on her young persons rail pass on Monday?
Maggie Thatcher wrote:I live in the real world, you live in a textbook driven utopia.
Bog Vern wrote:What next? "Ner ner nerner ner smelly pants!!!"???
Maggie makes an adult post - LMAO
Maggie is talking sense - ROFL
Maggie comes up with an original statement - URL 404
Sniggering
Wake up and smell the coffee - the world is not as you see it, a perfect world will never happen and there will be injustices in the world.
Anarchy is a joke - what a solution to things that is! What a juvenile you are.
Communism failed, capitalism hasn't exactly won a BAFTA recently but hey - its the real world.
Go to Israel and make your protests. Will you? No
I presume you are having to debrief your time at college at the moment - before your tea and homework.
Please go out there in the real world and stop writing about things you do not understand.
Humans run the world therefore mistakes will be made. Get on with it. You can stay up late tonight - tomorrow is Saturday!!!
kkj
says...
6:34pm Fri 1 May 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:What have you sidestepped - The first question I asked you dismissed as facetious; more recently I asked you to indicate where I have written apologia for anything.
What questions have I side-stepped???
You have done nothing but adopt a guerilla position of snipe then relocate.
So, tell me finally how can you occupy a position of not condoning murder, but be happy with having a factory that supplies (credibly with full knowledge) known murderers with equipment to be used in murder?
Because I can't see how is can be done with falling off the end of sophistry into full-blown delusion/mendacity.
You ask me how I can be happy with having a factory that supplies murderers etc. Who said I was happy about the situation? Not me. I may accept it but naturally I would prefer such factories were not
existent.
As I said earlier, I am pragmatic these days.
kkj
says...
12:20am Sat 2 May 09
I hope to see Maggie, on a different thread obviously, post street party.
Acheron
says...
8:31am Sat 2 May 09
You insist you're answering all questions, but you've ignored these two. (Sorry I know it was a long post to start with so you may have missed them).
Point 1
As to the issue of violence at protests only coming from the police. Obviously there has been much coverage of the police action. However there was also plenty of coverage (at least down here because it was a Sussex lady involved) of violent action by protestors. I think you'll find that RBS is asking for quite a bit of money from the young lady concerned for damage done. There was also footage of people smashing windows at RBS. (I assume you're not going to argue that it was the police in disguise).
Point 2
I'm slightly concerned about your definition of thuggary. I think you'll find that it relates to more than just people, so yes, the people who broke into the EDS labs creating damage to them and to employee’s cars are thugs because their behaviour was thuggish.
Just some other thoughts.
Can I ask what you are doing about the hundreds of thousands of children under 5 who die of dehydration each year? If you're so concerned about the death of children I assume you're doing all you can about that issue as well.
On the issue of it being 'only the Argus suggesting there will be trouble. I think you'll find that Fitwatch are recommending slightly more agressive tactics than a peaceful walk and demonstration. Charging through police lines is one of thier ideas. I know they are not Smash EDO, but they will be there as well.
Bog Vern
says...
4:16pm Sat 2 May 09
Have you been grounded?
I'm sure you will be allowed out to play again soon.
johnsmith48
says...
11:24am Sun 3 May 09
sugarhorse
says...
7:42pm Mon 4 May 09
Maggie Thatcher wrote:Yes of course they are a non-violent group.
Smash EDO is a non-violent group.
There has been no violent actions by Smash EDO in Brighton... unlike the EDO & Police response to their legal demonstration.
So all this talk of "targets","violence" and "ringleaders" is just another hatchet job from the Argus & Co.
I do love all this talk about mobilising the army against protesters... and who said the Holocaust could never happen in the UK. But it does reveal that the real violent thugs in Brighton are the opponents of Smash EDO. Well done for clearing that up!
Of course, if the Israeli Air Force were killing Brightonians using EDO equipment, I'm sure the right-wing sea lions here would be a little more understanding.
That's why they've spent the afternoon throwing paint around, causing criminal damage, banging people's cars and who is it that will end up paying for the "non-violent" actions of a clearly violent and anarchist group?
Yes that's right, the law abiding residents of Brighton and Hove who work hard to stay in the black.
Unless of course you want to prove to me that I'm wrong and mis-informed.
Smash EDO marketed the day, they were the ones who invited others from around the country to come down and join in and ultimately this is their doing.
Thanks for costing me a small fortune - you selfish bastards.
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The Smash EDO protest group has identified targets across the city
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bibble says...
10:51pm Mon 27 Apr 09
And what will the police be doing with these "ringleaders"? Arrest them, perhaps? On what grounds? Being a "ringleader"?
Yet the police (pretend to) wonder why the organisers (I mean ringleaders) don't want to meet with them!