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Furious binmen threaten action over £8,000 pay cut proposals


Residents of Brighton and Hove have been warned to prepare for a summer, autumn and winter of discontent.

The gloomy predictions follow the outbreak of a major row between Brighton and Hove City Council and its binmen and street cleaners – after it was revealed they were about to be asked to take a pay cut of between £2,000 and £8,000 a year each.

The dispute comes on top of a four others current underway between the council and its staff which have led to threats of strikes which will close schools and libraries and hit dozens of other services.

Union officials yesterday warned they feared they would not be able to rein in the angry response of refuse staff told their wages would be slashed and admitted wildcat strikes were likely.

Mark Turner, the GMB union branch secretary representing more than 3,000 workers in the city, said: "We are looking at weeks and possibly months of strikes here. It will be a sustained walkout.

"The way things are at the moment we are not just looking at a summer of discontent, we're looking at a summer of discontent, an autumn of discontent and a winter of discontent."

His view was echoed by Alex Knutson, the city's Unison branch secretary, who has described industrial relations at the city as being "the worst I've ever known them".

The two unions have only this week started a consultation with staff at faith schools who are set to walk out in a separate pay row.

The latest dispute reached a head after rumours of imminent cuts circulated at the council's Hollingdean refuse depot.

Workers discovered they would be the victims of pay restructuring across the authority.

The move is the result of the council having to make compensation handouts of around £37 million to unskilled staff from other departments earlier this year.

Those staff, many of them female, had made successful legal claims that they had been underpaid for years by comparison to binmen, who were also unskilled.

It is understood the council now wants to reduce the wages of refuse staff to protect it from any future claims. Parks staff are believed to also face significantly reduced salaries.

Cityclean staff believe their wages will be cut from the current rates, which average £19,000 a year, to be equivalent to teaching assistants, who earn less than £15,000.

One, who asked not to be named, said: "They don't seem to care that there are guys here with young families, who have mortgages to pay and other commitments. They haven't taken into account the nature of the work either, that we have to go out in all weather, come rain or shine."

The news has been particularly badly received because it coincides with the council's moves to recruit a new chief executive, who will earn up to £170,000 – more than ten times what the refuse workers will be asked to accept.

Any long-term summer strikes by the binmen will be particularly hard for the city to cope with. Piles of bin bags left for days or weeks in the heat could have a significant impact on both residents and visitors.

Refuse workers have shown they are not afraid to strike in the past, walking out last year after allegations one was branded fat and lazy by his managers and occupying the Hollingbury depot for four days in a dispute in 2001 which led to the end of a contract with waste firm Sita.

The council admitted it was preparing to propose a new pay scale structure to its 8,000 employees but would not confirm or deny any specific wage figures.

Unison is currently fighting two dismissals of long-serving council office workers who it said were wrongfully penalised for taking long-term sick leave.

Mr Knutson said the union's 3,600 members at the council would be balloted over industrial action if the sackings were not overturned.

Unison members will be staging a protest rally during its national rally at the Brighton Centre next week.

Both unions have also threatened action over the transfer of staff to a private company following proposals to contract out the council housing maintenance contract.

A strike by more than 200 faith school staff is expected to force one day closures at 16 schools before the end of the summer term.

Mr Knutson said: "It's just a nightmare at the moment. I've never known this council so chaotic."

Councillor Gill Mitchell, leader of the opposition Labour group, said: "I haven't got any details of this at present but if this is the case I would sympathise with any staff who are facing a pay cut.

"Relations between the Conservative administration and the unions seem to be at an all time low right now."

A Brighton and Hove City Council spokesman said:“The work we are doing to review pay is fundamentally about fairness.

“It is our legal and moral responsibility to make sure all our staff are paid fairly for the work they do and we are making sure that people doing jobs rated as equivalent, across the council receive the same pay.

“We are shortly about to enter into what we hope will be an open, honest and constructive dialogue with the unions on the pay structures for various positions in the council.

“We always seek to settle any dispute with staff, whether in relation to sickness, pay and conditions, or any other matter, as fairly as possible in full consultation with union representatives.

“With regard to the specific issue of staff at faith schools, it is simply not within our power to meet the request of the unions to settle the faith school staff’s equal pay claims, as the governing body of the school is their employer and not the council.”


Your Say YourArgus

lorrie2, brighton says...
9:03am Mon 15 Jun 09

Only the other day the argus reported about the top job vacancy at brighton council was worth £170k, Surely that is a joke, cut that wage in half and use the difference to pay the other council workers, simple!

tinkywinky, Brighton says...
10:08am Mon 15 Jun 09

To cut the wages of the lowest paid is imoral. How about cutting the wages of the fat cat councilors. The british public will always (and rightly so)support the rights of the working class. Its a shame that the overpaid councilors who forget that they are OUR servants are too bussy with their snouts in the trough to care.

brightonneil, brighton says...
10:41am Mon 15 Jun 09

have i missed something, the unemployment total is rising and unskilled workers are threatening strike action. sack the lot of them and advertise the jobs again, i am sure plenty of unemployed would jump at the chance to earn what is still a substantial wage for an unskilled job.

Man With No Name, Brighton says...
10:54am Mon 15 Jun 09

Will we even notice the binmen striking?....

Charismatic Andrew, Patcham says...
10:55am Mon 15 Jun 09

They don't do themselves any favours when they say things like "They haven't taken into account the nature of the work either, that we have to go out in all weather, come rain or shine".

You're binmen. You have to work outside. Get a coat.

Fight Back, Hove says...
11:15am Mon 15 Jun 09

Looks like there'll be a few postcards being sent out to posters on here :lol:

salty_pete, Saltdean says...
11:22am Mon 15 Jun 09

This item is just rumour and speculation, and I would suggest not very responsible journalism. Is someone trying to deliberately foment trouble? It may make a better story to find out who is behind these rumours than just repeating them.

old bert, beanacre says...
11:37am Mon 15 Jun 09

Supposing a big wave knocked her over on Brighton beach - would she sue God???

ghost bus driver, Hove says...
12:15pm Mon 15 Jun 09

old bert wrote:
Supposing a big wave knocked her over on Brighton beach - would she sue God???
Wrong article mate

beccapenny, Brighton says...
12:48pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Since I have to take my own rubbish to the communal bin myslef, I really don't think I would notice them striking... But to reduce the wages of low paid workers is pretty out of order!

Ian (the train) H, Cheltenham says...
12:58pm Mon 15 Jun 09

It is the binmen who do the actual work. Why do you need to pay for a Chief Executive anyway? Please watch the news today about a former Cheltenham Chief Executive who creamed off the taxpayers without delivering her work. The council is claiming nearly £1m from her. It could easily stave off the proposed pay-cuts to the Brighton binmen.

Granny, Brighton says...
1:12pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Cut the councillors expenses. After all, once upon a time it was an honour to serve the community for little reward. What the devil does a chief executive of the council do anyway? Do without one (is there one at the moment?) and use the obscene amount he is paid to top up the coffers for other more important things.

blockhead, brighton says...
1:49pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Good, does this mean I won't be awoken by the communal bins lorry which turns up at 7am on saturday and sunday mornings.

KennyKoala, Brighton says...
1:50pm Mon 15 Jun 09

What's not being reported here is that the previous council administration refused to deal with the problem of equal pay for years, knowing that they'd be voted out last year, and so left this poisoned chalice for the current administration. Under the law, which is very badly drafted, employees are put into large groups, which is why binmen are compared to unskilled desk workers. They then have to be paid the same. The choice is either to increase the pay of the people in dry, non-physical jobs, or reduce the pay of those in wet, physical jobs. If you increase, council tax rockets. If you decrease, you get strikes. Not a nice choice but one that has been dictated by Labour legislation and one that was ducked by the Labour administration. Perhaps the Argus might like to ask Gill Mitchell which she'd choose? No, thought not.

Jim BB, Brighton says...
2:42pm Mon 15 Jun 09

This is a disgrace. How will they be able to pay for their mortgage/rent and other bills?

That £500,000 golden goodbye to a councillor doesn't look like such a 'good' idea now. Also, as Surrey is only paying £110-100K for the same job as the £170K Brighton and Hove chief exec, make some savings there - but don't penalise the workers.

Time for fat cats to diet.

pun master, Hove says...
2:58pm Mon 15 Jun 09

tinkywinky wrote:
To cut the wages of the lowest paid is imoral. How about cutting the wages of the fat cat councilors. The british public will always (and rightly so)support the rights of the working class. Its a shame that the overpaid councilors who forget that they are OUR servants are too bussy with their snouts in the trough to care.
To be fair, the proposal is not cutting the wages of the lowest paid - it is in fact lining their wages up so they are the same as the lowest paid - surely it would be better to bring teaching assistants wages in line with binmen's wages? The council will no doubt argue that they need to cut costs etc as theyu usually do. However, I reckon a swift read throught the expenses accounts and the costs of the constant 'functions' laid on by the council will soon find money saving opportunities. or the council could just stop sending out their pointless and frankly ridiculous consultations that only ever come out in favour of what they want...

There are times when the binmen may come across as moaning, there are times when they might leave a mess or miss out a bin, but on the whole they do a great job and one I certainly am keen to avoid... Good luck to them, but do consider other action other than striking, just to try and keep the public on board...

Crunchie, says...
3:02pm Mon 15 Jun 09

lorrie2 wrote:
Only the other day the argus reported about the top job vacancy at brighton council was worth £170k, Surely that is a joke, cut that wage in half and use the difference to pay the other council workers, simple!
Half of £170k is £85k. If wages are falling by £5k, that means cancelling pay cuts for seventeen people.

Simple!

But wait! What if there are more than 17 binmen? Surely such a simple obvious solution can't be wrong?

Dufus, Brighton says...
3:15pm Mon 15 Jun 09

i agree with most comments here - firstly thei might be scaremongering - the Argus always can rely on a story to seel papers if its about the bin mne or teachers. secondly as others have said - they need to look at departments that are underperforming/over staffed and reduce the head count (oh wait, its a Council, they cannot be sen to be cutting jobs at this time..) or reduce salaries to those people who are not performing. The bin sytstem has undergona reform in recnet years, so surely it is being better managed now? The bottom line is that its a recession and jobs and wages are being cut - wage cuts are far more common now compared to the last recession and at least its a way of reducing job losses - lots of people in jobs where there are no trade unions are agreeing to this.

PB, Steyning says...
3:54pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Mrs Thatcher made it quite plain. Cut the wages of the poor to encourage them to work harder to better themselves.

Pay the wealthy big bonuses to give them incentives to work harder.

What's wrong with that?

stan bailey, brighton says...
4:14pm Mon 15 Jun 09

PB wrote:
Mrs Thatcher made it quite plain. Cut the wages of the poor to encourage them to work harder to better themselves.

Pay the wealthy big bonuses to give them incentives to work harder.

What's wrong with that?
mmm I thought we had a labour gov. admittedly they have their noses in the through for their own expenses. Depressing isn't it

Hong Kong Futon, Brighton says...
4:30pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Stan - it's a labour government (well, just about) but the council's Tory.

Jim BB, Brighton says...
4:42pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Thatcher's son is at her hospital bedside, apparently. Not a good sign - even were she healthy. Imagine having that as a legacy.

wardth, Preston Park says...
4:55pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Unsilled worker (sorry guys but you're not surgeons are you?) are striking at a time when unemployment is rising and we are in the middle of a recession. Wise up chaps, you can be easily replaced, and I mean EASILY. Don't push it too far otherwise I think you may find yourselves out on your a*se and looking down the barrel of a UB40.

thensx, Hove says...
6:41pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Why do we even need unions any more? Ban them all I say.

Wilftop, Brighton says...
6:41pm Mon 15 Jun 09

19K a year just to empty bins I'd of taken that.

With unemployment rising I would think twice bin men & women, you may be replaced quicker than you think.

TheInsider, Brighton says...
6:43pm Mon 15 Jun 09

The trouble with the binmen in Brighton is that anyone who has been in Brighton for the past ten years or more knows that they went on strike at the drop of a hat for any excuse, lead by Mr Mark Turner. There was also a great deal of in-house fighting, bullying and threats among the ranks.
It is because of the workforce's dreadful reputation as agitators and troublemakers that no external waste contractor will touch Brighton's refuse service because of its troublesome workforce and the reason why the Labour council was forced to take it back in-house several years ago, so we taxpayers have already been held to ransom by this workforce.
So is this just another case of Mr Turner and his little gang of merry men (some of whom are paid extremely well under very old council contracts, with generous pensions- you would be very surprised indeed), playing up, or is this a genuine case of unfair treatment.
Turner and his crew have cried wolf far too often for most city people to believe him.
The union would do well to replace Mr Turner with a new rep' if the binmen want to get public support and trust for their case.
Come on Mr Turner come clean, Mr Cityclean.


yorkie44, Woodingdean says...
7:13pm Mon 15 Jun 09

It was only a few weeks ago that our councillors were telling us how marvellous everything was and any problems with the refuse service were just teething problems. Now the truth is out and at the next elections so it should be the Tories who are out.

Asbo, says...
7:28pm Mon 15 Jun 09

Oh dear the idiots are back on here posting comments about a job most of them no nothing about! What intrigues me is where this average wage of 19k originates from. Yes a driver would earn that as a basic, but a loaders basic wage is more like 13k basic. Even with persistant overtime I very much doubt 19k could be achieved? Even still there does appear to be some internal squabbling.Saying that a firm management team would have dealt with that, but of course there is no mangement is there.

RickH, Hove says...
8:53pm Mon 15 Jun 09

KennyKoala wrote:
What's not being reported here is that the previous council administration refused to deal with the problem of equal pay for years, knowing that they'd be voted out last year, and so left this poisoned chalice for the current administration. Under the law, which is very badly drafted, employees are put into large groups, which is why binmen are compared to unskilled desk workers. They then have to be paid the same. The choice is either to increase the pay of the people in dry, non-physical jobs, or reduce the pay of those in wet, physical jobs. If you increase, council tax rockets. If you decrease, you get strikes. Not a nice choice but one that has been dictated by Labour legislation and one that was ducked by the Labour administration. Perhaps the Argus might like to ask Gill Mitchell which she'd choose? No, thought not.
Maybe you'll be so kind as to let us know what the legislation is when you state "Under the law, which is very badly drafted, employees are put into large groups, which is why binmen are compared to unskilled desk workers. They then have to be paid the same... and...Not a nice choice but one that has been dictated by Labour legislation " as it sounds completely unlike any equality legislation I know of!

chrisg2000, Portslade says...
10:25pm Mon 15 Jun 09

The wage reviews must be performance related in the case of the bin men!

As the man with no name quite nicely put will we even know if they're on strike!!

stickman, Portslade says...
10:37pm Mon 15 Jun 09

And people wonder why we have an immigration problem - can't seem to get anyone else to do these crappy jobs anymore.

Stu, Hove says...
12:58am Tue 16 Jun 09

Of course, the problem with going on strike when you're a binman, is that when you go back to work the rubbish is still there and you still have to do the same amount of work to clear it away... doh!

cookie_brighton, brighton says...
7:28am Tue 16 Jun 09

mmm summer of discontent......why does this never happen in the winter....probably because of the sun lol as we are council tax payers and we pay for the service the council supply, which is calculated over the year,and we have paid"up front" are we legally allowed to sue through the law courts for lack of service.

cookie_brighton, brighton says...
7:39am Tue 16 Jun 09

i remember the good old days when the binmen used to go to the rear of your property collect your "bin" empty it and return it. they stopped this cause they were nt allowedto go onto a persons property cause of health and safety to their employees....instead they place enormous green bins on the public pavement........what about health and safety to the public??????

WS, London says...
11:16am Tue 16 Jun 09

cookie_brighton wrote:
i remember the good old days when the binmen used to go to the rear of your property collect your "bin" empty it and return it. they stopped this cause they were nt allowedto go onto a persons property cause of health and safety to their employees....instead they place enormous green bins on the public pavement........what about health and safety to the public??????
I remember those days as well. The binmen also you to take away everything you put out. None of this nonesense about garden waste or bulky items. They used to just sling it in the back and take it away. The Council always complain about fly-tipping well it's because the binmen won't take or aren't allowed to take half the stuff we want to throw out.

Cherry Pie, Brighton says...
11:25am Tue 16 Jun 09

Quote, Asbo:
"what intrigues me is where this average wage of 19k originates from. Yes a driver would earn that as a basic, but a loaders basic wage is more like 13k basic. Even with persistant overtime I very much doubt 19k could be achieved?"

If that's the case, then what's the problem? If wages are that low surely they won't be dropped further...?

As for the people moaning that they don't take everything.... that's because you're supposed to RECYCLE stuff and not just chuck it into landfill, idiots. Just because the council won't take it in the rubbish collection doesn't give you the right to dump it all over the city either. People's stupidity and lack of responsibility really amazes me!

cookie_brighton, brighton says...
11:27am Tue 16 Jun 09

Ws,london. i agree with you. what i cannot understand is that the council will only take away household rubbish. what do the council see as household rubbish???? as i see it household rubbish is anything that is contained within the house.if an item as served its purpose....say a bed and you place it out for the council to take away .....they wont unless you pay a further charge.

KennyKoala, Brighton says...
11:38am Tue 16 Jun 09

RickH wrote:
KennyKoala wrote:
What's not being reported here is that the previous council administration refused to deal with the problem of equal pay for years, knowing that they'd be voted out last year, and so left this poisoned chalice for the current administration. Under the law, which is very badly drafted, employees are put into large groups, which is why binmen are compared to unskilled desk workers. They then have to be paid the same. The choice is either to increase the pay of the people in dry, non-physical jobs, or reduce the pay of those in wet, physical jobs. If you increase, council tax rockets. If you decrease, you get strikes. Not a nice choice but one that has been dictated by Labour legislation and one that was ducked by the Labour administration. Perhaps the Argus might like to ask Gill Mitchell which she'd choose? No, thought not.
Maybe you'll be so kind as to let us know what the legislation is when you state "Under the law, which is very badly drafted, employees are put into large groups, which is why binmen are compared to unskilled desk workers. They then have to be paid the same... and...Not a nice choice but one that has been dictated by Labour legislation " as it sounds completely unlike any equality legislation I know of!
RickH - OK, I was being a bit glib. It is an incredibly complicated area. The prime legislation is the Employment Act 2002, which was intended to simplify matters and lead to fewer industrial tribunals. Unfortunately, the way the Act was drafted led to lots of disputes that landed up in court and judges had to decide the interpretation of law because the Act wasn't clear. For example, many thought it was intended that back-pay claims could only go back two years. Judges decided that, in fact, claims could go back six years. Pay comparators are a fraught area but binmen are generally compared with unskilled desk workers, as far as their basic pay goes. Then there's the issue of bonuses and whether they are genuine bonuses or ways of bumping up pay that are hidden. You'll have reps on one side saying that bonuses are entirely legit and on the other side saying they are basic pay boosts. Whatever the outcome, some win, some lose unless the taxpayer picks up the tab for boosting the claimant group's pay, which means tax rises. If a council goes the other way and prevents tax rises, then some people's pay has to fall - and that leads to strikes. And that's the (probably unintended)consequen
ce of the legislation and the (intended) consequence of the last administration putting the problem on the back burner until the local election was over. It is a hugely complicated area and it's affecting councils across Britain (including Scotland - it's UK legislation). B&H are not alone in having to take very difficult decisions.

Brigadier Monty, Burgess Hill says...
12:26pm Tue 16 Jun 09

lorrie2 wrote:
Only the other day the argus reported about the top job vacancy at brighton council was worth £170k, Surely that is a joke, cut that wage in half and use the difference to pay the other council workers, simple!
It's always the way isn't it. People at the top get paid more to do less, and people at the bottom suffer, it makes me sick to my stomach that these unskilled workers should be wrongfully targeted for pay cuts. How are they meant to pay their bills, when you have rich fat cat chief executives getting paid sick amounts of money for doing what? These workers are the backbone of the council and they should be recognised as such.

cookie_brighton, brighton says...
12:36pm Tue 16 Jun 09

pay cuts here ,pay cuts there, pay cuts everywhere.........t
hen they wonder why crime is increasing,and prisons are getting full.obvious signs of the tier systems,and the attitude of im alright jack.

RickH, Hove says...
12:36pm Tue 16 Jun 09

@KennyKoala - thanks for you explanation. I agree that this is a complicted area and any 'job weighting' exercise is fraught with difficulty.

BBBrighton, Brighton says...
3:30pm Tue 16 Jun 09

whilst it is agreed ACROSS THE BOARD that the binmen of brighton & hove are completely rubbish (no pun intended) its not really their fault. Moreover it is citycleans (the manager and chief exec of which is on 100k+ by the way) fault.

their continued waste of public money is quite frankly unsustainable so it is somewhat inevitable that this situation arises. The council solution will no doubt be to contract this out to another company - Veolia pehaps? the tender will bring in millions but costs far more long term.

CUT THE AMOUNT OF CITY CLEAN MANAGEMENT. IT IS QUITE CLEAR THEY HAVE MESSED UP TIME AND TIME AGAIN and now it is the frontline staff suffering. How can you ask someone on way below the average wage for Brighton & Hove to take a pay cut AND YET STILL CONTINUE TO INCREASE THE COUNCIL TAX

it is DISGUSTING the level of waste accross the council. Huge pensions, stupid initiatives and pointless research. as I understand it B&H council have a few million stashed away in foreign accounts (NOT iceland as they keep re-assuring us) for a rainy day.

WELL B&H! - its flooding fast!

cookie_brighton, brighton says...
3:59pm Tue 16 Jun 09

the money that the council have stashed away is probably to secure the fat cats golden hand shakes and their retirement.

BBBrighton, Brighton says...
4:13pm Tue 16 Jun 09

well they need to WAKE THE **** UP

gregwah1, Hove says...
4:36pm Tue 16 Jun 09

Did I read that right - £19k to be a bin man, can't remember the last time I didn't have trouble with the council either collecting my rubbish or recycling. I agree cut some of those big ol salaries at the top but in the grand order of things and the salaries in Brighton & Hove alone bin man does not warrent more than a teaching assistant at £19k. Don't turn up most of the time!

Randy Lahey, Sunnyvale Trailer Park says...
10:51am Wed 17 Jun 09

PB wrote:
Mrs Thatcher made it quite plain. Cut the wages of the poor to encourage them to work harder to better themselves. Pay the wealthy big bonuses to give them incentives to work harder. What's wrong with that?
Nepotism, laziness, trust funds.

It doesnt quite work out as simply as you have put it, does it?

Randy Lahey, Sunnyvale Trailer Park says...
2:22pm Wed 17 Jun 09

I say get a load of immigrants in to do it - I'm sure they would be glad of the money these morons earn even after paycuts.

Yes, Morons.

tezzboy, brighton says...
7:54pm Wed 17 Jun 09

to all the above readers thanks for your veiws now let me enlighten you fistly the coucil cut the crews back to 3men from 5 and stopped the bin man entering your property at the same time they increased the round sizes it had nothing to do with health & safety this was just the line management issued to stop the public from complaining secondly they then intruduced the communal bins to further reduce the workforce and at the same time they increased the workload on the other crews that are not affected by the communal bins thirdly the 19k wage is what algv class 2 driver is on the national average for a driver holding this type of licence is somewhere in the region of 24k to 26k so although you might not like these workers or the job they are doing lets face facts they are hardly what you could say is highly paid their work has been increased year on year whilst the size of the crew expected to complete these rounds have been decreased so please before adding comments take a moment and think would you truly like to work in these conditions for the meagre wage they are paid and remember this the councilors who are elected to represent you probably have a higher allowance claim than these people are expected to raise a family on
thanks for reading this and please support your local bin men and street cleansing staff in their fight to earn a decent living wage

TheInsider, Brighton says...
9:42pm Wed 17 Jun 09

tezzboy....replace Mark Turner with a fresh union rep' and the people of the city may support you.
In the past ten years or more we've had all sorts of scandals and strikes lead by Mark Turner and for years we never knew if our bins would get collected and the threat of strike action was just part of everyday life for us local folk. Now the people in the city don't know whether your union is just crying wolf yet again.
If you have a genuine case, you need a new rep' to take you into the future to re-gain public confidence and trust. I am a union member and he is too old school and has too many links with the old guard who caused so many problems over silly issues.

HoveResident, Hove says...
4:11pm Thu 18 Jun 09

Rubbish collection in brighton and hove is a shambles. It's a basic service. The council shouldn't attempt anything else until the basic services are provided. Brighton is a dirty place to live. Rubbish doesn't get collected on time, they don't meet their own calendar or timetable. I don't care who's fault it is, we aren't getting the service we have paid for. I sure that paying the binmen less isn't going to help. Stop ****-assing around and SORT IT OUT you hippy idiots.

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