Father and son jailed for fireworks factory manslaughter

GUILTY: Nathan Winter outside court at an earlier hearing, followed by his father Martin

GUILTY: Nathan Winter outside court at an earlier hearing, followed by his father Martin

First published in News by

The owner of a fireworks company and his son were jailed today after being convicted of the manslaughter of two firemen killed in a huge blast at their family-run company.

Martin Winter, 52, was handed a seven-year jail term and his 25-year-old son, Nathan Winter, was sentenced to five years for the deaths of retained firefighter Geoff Wicker, 49, and support officer Brian Wembridge, 63.

The pair, both long-serving members of East Sussex Fire and Rescue Service, died in the blast at Festival Fireworks UK Ltd at Marlie Farm in Shortgate, near Lewes, on December 3, 2006.

Footage taken by Brian Wembridge of the blaze

Click here for all our trial coverage.

Following a five-week trial at Lewes Crown Court, both Martin and Nathan Winter were found to be "grossly negligent" through knowing an unlicensed metal container packed with fireworks could explode if a blaze broke out.

Their firm, now called Alpha Fireworks Ltd, was convicted of two counts of health and safety breaches in connection with the blast, which injured some 20 others, mainly police and fire officers. It was fined £30,000.

The judge, Mr Justice Cooke, told the father and son in the dock: "You had deliberately placed fireworks capable of causing mass explosion knowing that you didn't have the authorisation.

"You deliberately flouted the explosives regulations for profits, no doubt familiarity bred contempt."

He described Martin Winter as "reckless" in the handling and storage of fireworks and failing to give full and accurate information.

The defendants' family in the public gallery sobbed as they were sentenced.

Both men will be sentenced at 2pm today.

It was while Nathan Winter was making preparations at Marlie Farm for a fireworks show in Eastbourne later on December 3, 2006 that the fatal sequence of events was triggered.

He heard a crack as igniters flared up and soon fireworks were exploding and spreading to other areas of the site. East Sussex Fire and Rescue Service was called and the command passed upwards as more senior fire officers arrived.

One firefighter, Michael Sweetman, described how, moments before the blast, he heard a hissing sound followed by a sucking sound emanating from the container.

Then there was a loud bang, followed by a massive fireball which shot out about 10ft. This was followed by a huge explosion as the container exploded like a bomb and rocked the site, sending fragments flying everywhere.

Dramatic video footage captured by Mr Wembridge was shown to jurors of fireworks exploding and flames engulfing different parts of the site before suddenly going dead.

One fire officer described the scene as like the "Battle of the Somme" as the site was flattened and covered with debris from the massive explosion.

The firework-packed metal container which exploded was unlicensed for storage by Festival Fireworks. And jurors were told it was obvious to both Nathan and Martin Winter of the potential for a huge blast to have occurred if a blaze broke out.

The jury reached their verdicts on Nathan Winter after 19 hours and 46 minutes of deliberation.

Standing beside his father in the dock, he showed no emotion as the verdicts were read out by the jury foreman.

Both men were said to have been familiar with the different hazard classifications given to fireworks, and were aware of the particular danger posed by storing fireworks in a metal container.

Prosecutors also said the Winters, who live on Marlie Farm, were familiar with the licence and its obligations about how and what could be stored and how fireworks should be handled.

But nevertheless, it was said, the container, which had been on the site for years and until recently said to have been used to house chicken feed, was packed with fireworks, including those capable of causing a mass explosion.

Jurors were told the Winters "had a duty of care" to take reasonable care when they went about being involved in the storage and handling of fireworks.

Prosecutor Richard Matthews made the analogy of the car driver who owes a duty of care to everyone, including pedestrians and other motorists, to drive reasonably.

Questions were asked, however, about the role of the fire service after they received the first call to Marlie Farm at 1.45pm, and whether procedures had been correctly followed.

Defence counsel Mukul Chawla QC said if the firefighters had followed their own processes, neither Mr Wembridge nor Mr Wicker would have been near the container when it exploded.

He said that "for whatever reason" it appeared the firefighters had not been provided with any training or had their attention brought to the Health and Safety Executive's Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations.

The regulations state that if a fire is established and involves explosives or threatens to spread them, to evacuate to a distance of 600m, Mr Chawla said. But he added that this was not followed.

During his evidence, Nathan Winter, who was aged 22 at the time, said he stressed the importance for firefighters to keep flames away from the container.

It was suggested that because of his age, the advice was ignored. He told the jury he felt one officer believed he was not in a position to tell him how to do his job.

As Nathan Winter pressed the issue on the site, he was arrested and led off by police before being released. He told a police officer that fire officers were "not listening to him and they needed to pull out".

Martin Winter, who declined to give evidence at trial, said in interview he tried to tell the firemen what could happen and how the fire could be fought, but said: "They wouldn't allow us in there.

Health and safety, so it just took hold."

At one point, the court was told, that Mr Wembridge was ordered to withdraw from the scene after being seen with his camera, with one firefighter telling him: "Brian, get yourself out of here now."

Mr Matthews said that it was not the prosecution's case that the Winters intended to harm or kill the two firemen, but that anyone involved in storing or handling fireworks had a duty to take proper care.

Their failure to take reasonable care amounted to "not simply negligence but gross negligence". The potential for a mass explosion was "obvious and it was well known" to them.

Footage was shown to the jury of controlled explosions in a metal container similar to the one that exploded at Marlie Farm, under what was called the Chaf project.

The project was an EU-funded scheme to investigate and learn lessons from the hazards posed by fireworks and mass explosion in a metal container.

The company was fined 10 years ago after admitting storing fireworks at nearby Upper Lodge Farm, which was not covered by its licence.

Enforcement action was taken under its previous name, Sussex Fireworks and Displays Ltd, and it was fined £1,000 plus costs in December 1999 for contravening Section 5 of the Explosives Act 1875.

Following the convictions Neil Morton, the Health and Safety Executive's chief inspector of explosives, said: "This case is a stark reminder of the terrible consequences of not following the correct procedures when handling hazardous material.

"If Alpha Fireworks had handled and stored the fireworks correctly, the fire and subsequent explosion would not have happened.

"Companies that work in the high hazard industries must remember that regulations and standards are there to protect workers and the public.

"Complying with the law and following the well-established principles of good work practices when using and storing explosives can prevent people being killed or hurt."

Comments (47)

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3:00pm Wed 16 Dec 09

tpebop... says...

How can they be guilty of manslaughter?
The firemen knew of the dangers, and should of stayed WELL BACK.
An accident, that I am sure they are sorry for.
How can they be guilty of manslaughter? The firemen knew of the dangers, and should of stayed WELL BACK. An accident, that I am sure they are sorry for. tpebop...
  • Score: 0

4:05pm Wed 16 Dec 09

simon195 says...

well if they had urged and warned the police and firefighters to stand well back as the place contains dangerous containers then maybe just maybe they would have been found not guilty as they would have given clear precise warning s thus covering themselfs, lessons to be learnt on this one
well if they had urged and warned the police and firefighters to stand well back as the place contains dangerous containers then maybe just maybe they would have been found not guilty as they would have given clear precise warning s thus covering themselfs, lessons to be learnt on this one simon195
  • Score: 0

4:55pm Wed 16 Dec 09

LB says...

Maybe if they hadn't created a large bomb by stuffing a shipping container with fireworks they wouldn't have been in the dock in the first place?
Maybe if they hadn't created a large bomb by stuffing a shipping container with fireworks they wouldn't have been in the dock in the first place? LB
  • Score: 0

5:26pm Wed 16 Dec 09

Saulgone Petetong says...

tpebop... wrote:
How can they be guilty of manslaughter? The firemen knew of the dangers, and should of stayed WELL BACK. An accident, that I am sure they are sorry for.
Well the picture of them both outside of court doesn't portray that from where I am standing - quite the opposite in fact.
[quote][p][bold]tpebop...[/bold] wrote: How can they be guilty of manslaughter? The firemen knew of the dangers, and should of stayed WELL BACK. An accident, that I am sure they are sorry for.[/p][/quote]Well the picture of them both outside of court doesn't portray that from where I am standing - quite the opposite in fact. Saulgone Petetong
  • Score: 0

5:32pm Wed 16 Dec 09

Old Dog says...

This seems to me to be a smoke screen (excuse the pun) to divert attention away from the very poor handling of this incident by the Fire Brigade, their lack of training, and revenge for the loss of two colleagues. Martin senior did himself no favours by his arrogant conduct.
This seems to me to be a smoke screen (excuse the pun) to divert attention away from the very poor handling of this incident by the Fire Brigade, their lack of training, and revenge for the loss of two colleagues. Martin senior did himself no favours by his arrogant conduct. Old Dog
  • Score: 0

5:51pm Wed 16 Dec 09

Notnow says...

So Martin Winter got the same sentence as Vanessa George. That's really not right.
So Martin Winter got the same sentence as Vanessa George. That's really not right. Notnow
  • Score: 0

6:29pm Wed 16 Dec 09

Gaz the great says...

Notnow-Lewes-Totally agree, V George should have received a much longer term.
Notnow-Lewes-Totally agree, V George should have received a much longer term. Gaz the great
  • Score: 0

8:11pm Wed 16 Dec 09

garyc says...

i think this is a bad accident but theyve been sent down for a long time,our justice system is wierd.The thugs that set that mans beard alight should have got longer sentences
i think this is a bad accident but theyve been sent down for a long time,our justice system is wierd.The thugs that set that mans beard alight should have got longer sentences garyc
  • Score: 0

8:21pm Wed 16 Dec 09

Conor says...

Notnow wrote:
So Martin Winter got the same sentence as Vanessa George. That's really not right.
No he didn't. He'll be out in three and a half years. George will serve at least seven years, and may never be released.
[quote][p][bold]Notnow[/bold] wrote: So Martin Winter got the same sentence as Vanessa George. That's really not right.[/p][/quote]No he didn't. He'll be out in three and a half years. George will serve at least seven years, and may never be released. Conor
  • Score: 0

8:33pm Wed 16 Dec 09

watersk says...

I think it is totally disscusting that these guys have been given such long tough sentences. They did not intentionally go out to harm anyone it just seems a tragic accident to me so why do they receive longer sentences than people who harm children, rapists and people who deliberately go out to kill and drink drivers who know what the dangers are but still do it and kill some innocent person. So now we all know why we have no room in our prisons for the real criminals. I believe they should have been punished for breaching the rules but honestly do they deserve this? Our Justice System is a complete joke.
I think it is totally disscusting that these guys have been given such long tough sentences. They did not intentionally go out to harm anyone it just seems a tragic accident to me so why do they receive longer sentences than people who harm children, rapists and people who deliberately go out to kill and drink drivers who know what the dangers are but still do it and kill some innocent person. So now we all know why we have no room in our prisons for the real criminals. I believe they should have been punished for breaching the rules but honestly do they deserve this? Our Justice System is a complete joke. watersk
  • Score: 0

8:37pm Wed 16 Dec 09

stan bailey says...

The film accompanying this article seems to have been taken by the man who died, was he film making or putting out the fire?
The film accompanying this article seems to have been taken by the man who died, was he film making or putting out the fire? stan bailey
  • Score: 0

8:58pm Wed 16 Dec 09

Andaxi says...

What a farce. Yes they probably did deserve some sort of punishment; but 7 years and 5 years.....?

What sort of outfit goes out to a fire to take pictures....it was a fire dammit not a jolly!

How often was the site inspected prior to this and what fire precautions were mandatory on an operation of this type?
What a farce. Yes they probably did deserve some sort of punishment; but 7 years and 5 years.....? What sort of outfit goes out to a fire to take pictures....it was a fire dammit not a jolly! How often was the site inspected prior to this and what fire precautions were mandatory on an operation of this type? Andaxi
  • Score: 0

9:10pm Wed 16 Dec 09

chroma says...

Andaxi wrote:
What a farce. Yes they probably did deserve some sort of punishment; but 7 years and 5 years.....? What sort of outfit goes out to a fire to take pictures....it was a fire dammit not a jolly! How often was the site inspected prior to this and what fire precautions were mandatory on an operation of this type?
Clearly you haven't been following this case, for if you had you'd know the answers to your own rather stupid questions.
1. The fire officer killed in the explosion was employed by the firebrigade to film fires. Not for a jolly, as you put it, but for gathering evidence in the event of prosecution (as unwittintly happened in this case) and for use in future fire service training and debriefs after the event.
2. The site was previously inspected and these people prosecuted for failing to comply with the law.
3. This event would never have happened if those who are now in prison had a) not had illegal fireworks and b) stored their legal (and illegal) fireworks in suitable, approved containers in line with current legisilation.
I don't share your view that this is any way a farce. Two long serving, brave and dedicated fire officers died as a result of these people's greed and arrogance. Their familes have been denied their love,compansionship and their colleagues lost friends - and you call this is a farce?
[quote][p][bold]Andaxi[/bold] wrote: What a farce. Yes they probably did deserve some sort of punishment; but 7 years and 5 years.....? What sort of outfit goes out to a fire to take pictures....it was a fire dammit not a jolly! How often was the site inspected prior to this and what fire precautions were mandatory on an operation of this type?[/p][/quote]Clearly you haven't been following this case, for if you had you'd know the answers to your own rather stupid questions. 1. The fire officer killed in the explosion was employed by the firebrigade to film fires. Not for a jolly, as you put it, but for gathering evidence in the event of prosecution (as unwittintly happened in this case) and for use in future fire service training and debriefs after the event. 2. The site was previously inspected and these people prosecuted for failing to comply with the law. 3. This event would never have happened if those who are now in prison had a) not had illegal fireworks and b) stored their legal (and illegal) fireworks in suitable, approved containers in line with current legisilation. I don't share your view that this is any way a farce. Two long serving, brave and dedicated fire officers died as a result of these people's greed and arrogance. Their familes have been denied their love,compansionship and their colleagues lost friends - and you call this is a farce? chroma
  • Score: 0

9:16pm Wed 16 Dec 09

chroma says...

stan bailey wrote:
The film accompanying this article seems to have been taken by the man who died, was he film making or putting out the fire?
In instances where people have lost their life doing their job, don't you think just for once you could remain silent and perhaps nurture your ego at some future date when the story isn't so involved for you to fully comprehend?
The fire service have been filming fires/events for the past 20 years or so. These recordings prove invaluable in the event of prosectutions, training and also on working on how to prevent fires.
[quote][p][bold]stan bailey[/bold] wrote: The film accompanying this article seems to have been taken by the man who died, was he film making or putting out the fire?[/p][/quote]In instances where people have lost their life doing their job, don't you think just for once you could remain silent and perhaps nurture your ego at some future date when the story isn't so involved for you to fully comprehend? The fire service have been filming fires/events for the past 20 years or so. These recordings prove invaluable in the event of prosectutions, training and also on working on how to prevent fires. chroma
  • Score: 0

9:21pm Wed 16 Dec 09

chroma says...

garyc wrote:
i think this is a bad accident but theyve been sent down for a long time,our justice system is wierd.The thugs that set that mans beard alight should have got longer sentences
How could it be a 'bad accident'?
These guys have illegal fireworks in their illegal storage containers.
Nothing accidental about that.
Just as a motorist with an unroadworthy/illegal car kills two pedestrians - it wouldn't be an accident, would it?
As for thugs - the arrogant swagger of both of them in the picture, together with the fact the son's behaviour was so bad on the night the police had to arrest him for his behaviour, paints the picture of thugs in my mind.
[quote][p][bold]garyc[/bold] wrote: i think this is a bad accident but theyve been sent down for a long time,our justice system is wierd.The thugs that set that mans beard alight should have got longer sentences[/p][/quote]How could it be a 'bad accident'? These guys have illegal fireworks in their illegal storage containers. Nothing accidental about that. Just as a motorist with an unroadworthy/illegal car kills two pedestrians - it wouldn't be an accident, would it? As for thugs - the arrogant swagger of both of them in the picture, together with the fact the son's behaviour was so bad on the night the police had to arrest him for his behaviour, paints the picture of thugs in my mind. chroma
  • Score: 0

9:58pm Wed 16 Dec 09

TheInsider says...

I cannot believe the crass statements of some people here.
These two men broke the law and not only did two men pay with their lives because of it, but 20 other people were injured.
We are not talking about small 1960's style cardboard fireworks, these are 'explosives' which need to be respected and in this case they were not, hence the tragic outcome.
In 1996 headteacher David Hattersley was fatally wounded by a firework going off at a school display in front of hundreds of children. This prompted the Government to take action on 'modern' industrial strength fireworks for personal use and now its time that trading/storing in them also needs to be examined and any H&S breaches should result in a loss of licence at the first instance.
I cannot believe the crass statements of some people here. These two men broke the law and not only did two men pay with their lives because of it, but 20 other people were injured. We are not talking about small 1960's style cardboard fireworks, these are 'explosives' which need to be respected and in this case they were not, hence the tragic outcome. In 1996 headteacher David Hattersley was fatally wounded by a firework going off at a school display in front of hundreds of children. This prompted the Government to take action on 'modern' industrial strength fireworks for personal use and now its time that trading/storing in them also needs to be examined and any H&S breaches should result in a loss of licence at the first instance. TheInsider
  • Score: 0

10:38pm Wed 16 Dec 09

Auld School says...

If we could only apply this principal to those in the Home Office, Asylum Office and Parole Board then maybe there would be less crimes (including rapes and murders) against the general public.
If we could only apply this principal to those in the Home Office, Asylum Office and Parole Board then maybe there would be less crimes (including rapes and murders) against the general public. Auld School
  • Score: 0

6:25am Thu 17 Dec 09

John Steed says...

in this case the fire and rescue services were seriously at fault in so much as they had an astounding lack of knowledge on explosives, failed to heed the warnings that were given and the two firemen who died should have been evacuated from the site like the rest of the other firefighters, the incident commander bears as much responsibilty as the winters, who tried in vain to warn of the dangers. nothing seems to have appeared about the civilian who was also in the woods photographing what he could and injured in the blast
we will all remember that day myself not least because i was told about it in a phone call from france just after it broke out and on phoning my daughter at ringmer she said she couldnt hear anything, The winters, as anyone from lewes knows are are decent industious family, martin's father & uncle being best known for their wrestling exploits at lewes town hall amongst other places in the 70's and his grand father provided a well known & used outside catering service for many years, the entire family being bonfire boys and girls for more generations than I know about.

the death of the two firemen should not and will not be trivilised in any way but these sentences are extreme in the least
there is a bottom line here, the firemen should have withdrawn when the rest of the crews did, and the incident commander and his crews, blatently not knowing what they were dealing with and/or how to deal with it should have listened to what information was given (but ignored) at the time.
in this case the fire and rescue services were seriously at fault in so much as they had an astounding lack of knowledge on explosives, failed to heed the warnings that were given and the two firemen who died should have been evacuated from the site like the rest of the other firefighters, the incident commander bears as much responsibilty as the winters, who tried in vain to warn of the dangers. nothing seems to have appeared about the civilian who was also in the woods photographing what he could and injured in the blast we will all remember that day myself not least because i was told about it in a phone call from france just after it broke out and on phoning my daughter at ringmer she said she couldnt hear anything, The winters, as anyone from lewes knows are are decent industious family, martin's father & uncle being best known for their wrestling exploits at lewes town hall amongst other places in the 70's and his grand father provided a well known & used outside catering service for many years, the entire family being bonfire boys and girls for more generations than I know about. the death of the two firemen should not and will not be trivilised in any way but these sentences are extreme in the least there is a bottom line here, the firemen should have withdrawn when the rest of the crews did, and the incident commander and his crews, blatently not knowing what they were dealing with and/or how to deal with it should have listened to what information was given (but ignored) at the time. John Steed
  • Score: 0

7:37am Thu 17 Dec 09

alyn, southwick says...

"John Steed, worthing" your biased in favour of those who WERE found guilty, and I don't think therefore your comments are worth anything. I have heard nothing to say the two fireman who ignored their own safety to try to prevent loss and harm to others and property, were found at fault in any way.
Your comments seem to reflect the Winters defence, which does not make them factual, just a desperate attempt to free themselves of blame. I think trying to blacken the name of individuals or groups who frequently put themselves at risk for us careless (in this case reckless) public is despicable. It was so obvious they were at fault (regardless of any one else's shortcomings), it just makes it worse.
As far as younger Winter trying to warn the fire brigade and getting arrested, although he may have had a point he should have made it differently, or preferably earlier - say before the fireworks were stored.
(Criminals are often well thought of amongst their neighbours but it don't make them any less guilty of their crimes - often their neighbours would think less of them if they knew their wrongs. So I suspect, John, would the Winters neighbours have thought less of them if they had known they were building a bomb on their doorsteps. They are not "decent" they're criminals who tried to evade responsibility by blaming others - the very heroes who tried to save them, their property and their neighbours.)
"John Steed, worthing" your biased in favour of those who WERE found guilty, and I don't think therefore your comments are worth anything. I have heard nothing to say the two fireman who ignored their own safety to try to prevent loss and harm to others and property, were found at fault in any way. Your comments seem to reflect the Winters defence, which does not make them factual, just a desperate attempt to free themselves of blame. I think trying to blacken the name of individuals or groups who frequently put themselves at risk for us careless (in this case reckless) public is despicable. It was so obvious they were at fault (regardless of any one else's shortcomings), it just makes it worse. As far as younger Winter trying to warn the fire brigade and getting arrested, although he may have had a point he should have made it differently, or preferably earlier - say before the fireworks were stored. (Criminals are often well thought of amongst their neighbours but it don't make them any less guilty of their crimes - often their neighbours would think less of them if they knew their wrongs. So I suspect, John, would the Winters neighbours have thought less of them if they had known they were building a bomb on their doorsteps. They are not "decent" they're criminals who tried to evade responsibility by blaming others - the very heroes who tried to save them, their property and their neighbours.) alyn, southwick
  • Score: 0

8:48am Thu 17 Dec 09

tpebop... says...

alyn, southwick wrote:
"John Steed, worthing" your biased in favour of those who WERE found guilty, and I don't think therefore your comments are worth anything. I have heard nothing to say the two fireman who ignored their own safety to try to prevent loss and harm to others and property, were found at fault in any way. Your comments seem to reflect the Winters defence, which does not make them factual, just a desperate attempt to free themselves of blame. I think trying to blacken the name of individuals or groups who frequently put themselves at risk for us careless (in this case reckless) public is despicable. It was so obvious they were at fault (regardless of any one else's shortcomings), it just makes it worse. As far as younger Winter trying to warn the fire brigade and getting arrested, although he may have had a point he should have made it differently, or preferably earlier - say before the fireworks were stored. (Criminals are often well thought of amongst their neighbours but it don't make them any less guilty of their crimes - often their neighbours would think less of them if they knew their wrongs. So I suspect, John, would the Winters neighbours have thought less of them if they had known they were building a bomb on their doorsteps. They are not "decent" they're criminals who tried to evade responsibility by blaming others - the very heroes who tried to save them, their property and their neighbours.)
Sorry but you talk such CR*P.
All fireworks ARE bombs put 20 together and you have a bigger bomb, and so on, so don't stand too close to them.
And to make a film of it, I NOT being a fireman know to stay WELL back and risk my life for a film or the property.

I except they did some wrong, but I don't think for one second they wanted anyone to die, a very large fine for breaking the law, yes.

If I were to tell you there were 50 fireworks in a box next to that fire would you want to stand next to it?
[quote][p][bold]alyn, southwick[/bold] wrote: "John Steed, worthing" your biased in favour of those who WERE found guilty, and I don't think therefore your comments are worth anything. I have heard nothing to say the two fireman who ignored their own safety to try to prevent loss and harm to others and property, were found at fault in any way. Your comments seem to reflect the Winters defence, which does not make them factual, just a desperate attempt to free themselves of blame. I think trying to blacken the name of individuals or groups who frequently put themselves at risk for us careless (in this case reckless) public is despicable. It was so obvious they were at fault (regardless of any one else's shortcomings), it just makes it worse. As far as younger Winter trying to warn the fire brigade and getting arrested, although he may have had a point he should have made it differently, or preferably earlier - say before the fireworks were stored. (Criminals are often well thought of amongst their neighbours but it don't make them any less guilty of their crimes - often their neighbours would think less of them if they knew their wrongs. So I suspect, John, would the Winters neighbours have thought less of them if they had known they were building a bomb on their doorsteps. They are not "decent" they're criminals who tried to evade responsibility by blaming others - the very heroes who tried to save them, their property and their neighbours.)[/p][/quote]Sorry but you talk such CR*P. All fireworks ARE bombs put 20 together and you have a bigger bomb, and so on, so don't stand too close to them. And to make a film of it, I NOT being a fireman know to stay WELL back and risk my life for a film or the property. I except they did some wrong, but I don't think for one second they wanted anyone to die, a very large fine for breaking the law, yes. If I were to tell you there were 50 fireworks in a box next to that fire would you want to stand next to it? tpebop...
  • Score: 0

9:04am Thu 17 Dec 09

LB says...

tpebop - I expect you take the same 'it's your own fault for standing too close' approach to Britsh bomb disposal teams working in Afghanistan - not the responsibility of the people who put the bomb there in the first place?
tpebop - I expect you take the same 'it's your own fault for standing too close' approach to Britsh bomb disposal teams working in Afghanistan - not the responsibility of the people who put the bomb there in the first place? LB
  • Score: 0

10:00am Thu 17 Dec 09

fedupwithgossips says...

People seem to have lost sight of the fact that not only did two fire fighters lose their lives (in a job that they signed up for knowing all the risks, just like those who sign up for the Army, knowing they could go to war) but the Winters lost everything they owned and now their husband, son, brother, partners have gone to prison for a long time for something that was an accident. No one deliberately set those fireworks off, it was one of the hazzards of working with these things. If people didn't like or buy fireworks then there would be no need for them to make them. Instead of passing judgement just think of all families concerned, including the Winters as they are victims as well and how they must be feeling right now, it is suppose to be a time of GOODWILL and joy to all men
People seem to have lost sight of the fact that not only did two fire fighters lose their lives (in a job that they signed up for knowing all the risks, just like those who sign up for the Army, knowing they could go to war) but the Winters lost everything they owned and now their husband, son, brother, partners have gone to prison for a long time for something that was an accident. No one deliberately set those fireworks off, it was one of the hazzards of working with these things. If people didn't like or buy fireworks then there would be no need for them to make them. Instead of passing judgement just think of all families concerned, including the Winters as they are victims as well and how they must be feeling right now, it is suppose to be a time of GOODWILL and joy to all men fedupwithgossips
  • Score: 0

10:30am Thu 17 Dec 09

LB says...

"No one deliberately set those fireworks off"

but they did deliberatly store them illegally and recklessly.
"No one deliberately set those fireworks off" but they did deliberatly store them illegally and recklessly. LB
  • Score: 0

10:58am Thu 17 Dec 09

Old Dog says...

Classic case of a 'crime' against the State being punished out of all proportion. Crime against the person just gets a slap on the wrist, eg the V. George monster!
Classic case of a 'crime' against the State being punished out of all proportion. Crime against the person just gets a slap on the wrist, eg the V. George monster! Old Dog
  • Score: 0

11:18am Thu 17 Dec 09

avrilyt says...

Roger-retired ESCC Fireman
Result! I bet father and son don't look so smug and sure of themselves now. I hope they are big and brave in prison and not "cowards" which is what they called the firemen. Because of their arrogance and law breaking (remember at one point they said that the container only contained wood not fireworks) 2 men lost their lives and 20 were injured. Nothing can bring Brian and Geoff back but at least this is some sort of justice for their families. Have a good Christmas behind bars chaps, at least your family get you back after serving your sentences, the firemen’s families can never get their men back.
Roger-retired ESCC Fireman Result! I bet father and son don't look so smug and sure of themselves now. I hope they are big and brave in prison and not "cowards" which is what they called the firemen. Because of their arrogance and law breaking (remember at one point they said that the container only contained wood not fireworks) 2 men lost their lives and 20 were injured. Nothing can bring Brian and Geoff back but at least this is some sort of justice for their families. Have a good Christmas behind bars chaps, at least your family get you back after serving your sentences, the firemen’s families can never get their men back. avrilyt
  • Score: 0

11:36am Thu 17 Dec 09

fedupwithgossips says...

I'm sure you know the Winters personally to know that they were being smug and sure of themselves. You have no idea if and how much they have suffered since this happened. Nathan did try and tell the firemen that the containers was full of fireworks but, he was basically told to go away because he insisted in trying to tell them he got arrested for it. This is fact and was confirmed by a fireman in court. I like everyone else is so sorry that a firemen got killed but all the blame is not at the Winters door, perhaps they should have all been called off to a safe distance. Hine sight it a wonderful thing
I'm sure you know the Winters personally to know that they were being smug and sure of themselves. You have no idea if and how much they have suffered since this happened. Nathan did try and tell the firemen that the containers was full of fireworks but, he was basically told to go away because he insisted in trying to tell them he got arrested for it. This is fact and was confirmed by a fireman in court. I like everyone else is so sorry that a firemen got killed but all the blame is not at the Winters door, perhaps they should have all been called off to a safe distance. Hine sight it a wonderful thing fedupwithgossips
  • Score: 0

12:29pm Thu 17 Dec 09

KatyCat says...

Well said Chroma and avrilyt, I agree wholeheartedly with you both.
Well said Chroma and avrilyt, I agree wholeheartedly with you both. KatyCat
  • Score: 0

12:30pm Thu 17 Dec 09

tpebop... says...

fedupwithgossips wrote:
I'm sure you know the Winters personally to know that they were being smug and sure of themselves. You have no idea if and how much they have suffered since this happened. Nathan did try and tell the firemen that the containers was full of fireworks but, he was basically told to go away because he insisted in trying to tell them he got arrested for it. This is fact and was confirmed by a fireman in court. I like everyone else is so sorry that a firemen got killed but all the blame is not at the Winters door, perhaps they should have all been called off to a safe distance. Hine sight it a wonderful thing
SPOT ON !
But some will always want revenge, even for a accident.
If the police had not been so pigheaded this would not have been the outcome. It's good to listen sometimes, and the police and firemen should have !
[quote][p][bold]fedupwithgossips[/bold] wrote: I'm sure you know the Winters personally to know that they were being smug and sure of themselves. You have no idea if and how much they have suffered since this happened. Nathan did try and tell the firemen that the containers was full of fireworks but, he was basically told to go away because he insisted in trying to tell them he got arrested for it. This is fact and was confirmed by a fireman in court. I like everyone else is so sorry that a firemen got killed but all the blame is not at the Winters door, perhaps they should have all been called off to a safe distance. Hine sight it a wonderful thing[/p][/quote]SPOT ON ! But some will always want revenge, even for a accident. If the police had not been so pigheaded this would not have been the outcome. It's good to listen sometimes, and the police and firemen should have ! tpebop...
  • Score: 0

2:20pm Thu 17 Dec 09

Conor says...

The jury was in court for five weeks listening to all the evidence before finding them guilty.
How many of the critics of the verdict here can say the same?
The jury was in court for five weeks listening to all the evidence before finding them guilty. How many of the critics of the verdict here can say the same? Conor
  • Score: 0

2:34pm Thu 17 Dec 09

monkey-moo says...

What you are all forgetting:....
1) These idiots WERE FOUND GUILTY of criminal activity by a INDEPENDANT JURY...not revenge!
2) How can you train, or be trained for SOMEONE LYING to you? The firefighters were repeatedly told by Martin winter that the container ONLY CONTAINED WOOD!
If the firefighters had known different, I'm sure they would have evacuated much sooner than they did..or not have entered at all.
3) as for the 'Winters' being decent people and upset blah, blah, blah...what a load of BS. they never once showed any kind of remorse for their selfish, money orientated actions that caused 2 good men to die, and many more to be injured.
I hope they meet a friend of mine in the showers, who will help them understand what pain is!!
Good luck in prison!!
What you are all forgetting:.... 1) These idiots WERE FOUND GUILTY of criminal activity by a INDEPENDANT JURY...not revenge! 2) How can you train, or be trained for SOMEONE LYING to you? The firefighters were repeatedly told by Martin winter that the container ONLY CONTAINED WOOD! If the firefighters had known different, I'm sure they would have evacuated much sooner than they did..or not have entered at all. 3) as for the 'Winters' being decent people and upset blah, blah, blah...what a load of BS. they never once showed any kind of remorse for their selfish, money orientated actions that caused 2 good men to die, and many more to be injured. I hope they meet a friend of mine in the showers, who will help them understand what pain is!! Good luck in prison!! monkey-moo
  • Score: 0

3:01pm Thu 17 Dec 09

tracey111 says...

monkey-moo has obviously been in prison if they have friends there!!!!
monkey-moo has obviously been in prison if they have friends there!!!! tracey111
  • Score: 0

3:11pm Thu 17 Dec 09

Pheasant Plucker says...

I note that comments from Chroma are getting rather heated. Calling people stupid is not called for, neither is showing disrespect for other peoples views very grown up.

It was an extremely sad event and our thoughts are obviously with the victims families, but the fact remains that two family men are serving very severe sentences for their part in it.

They too have families which I'm sure are suffering too.

I was walking in Ringmer when the fire happened and witnessed the explosion from about a mile and a half away when the ground shook.

I also saw the many fire vehicles en route to the incident, including a water tanker, so the question of what fire precautions were mandatory on a site such as this was far from stupid as basics like water and foam should have surely been on site in sufficient quantities?

Many of us remember the fire at the large petrol storage facility in Hertfordshire; this was a colossal blaze but tragedy was averted by following correct procedures.

Yes there is a lot to learn on BOTH sides!
I note that comments from Chroma are getting rather heated. Calling people stupid is not called for, neither is showing disrespect for other peoples views very grown up. It was an extremely sad event and our thoughts are obviously with the victims families, but the fact remains that two family men are serving very severe sentences for their part in it. They too have families which I'm sure are suffering too. I was walking in Ringmer when the fire happened and witnessed the explosion from about a mile and a half away when the ground shook. I also saw the many fire vehicles en route to the incident, including a water tanker, so the question of what fire precautions were mandatory on a site such as this was far from stupid as basics like water and foam should have surely been on site in sufficient quantities? Many of us remember the fire at the large petrol storage facility in Hertfordshire; this was a colossal blaze but tragedy was averted by following correct procedures. Yes there is a lot to learn on BOTH sides! Pheasant Plucker
  • Score: 0

8:36pm Thu 17 Dec 09

Blobbyboy says...

As several other rational people have said quite calmy, the fundamental point is that the invididuals who were prosecuted and found guilty had been dealing with fireworks for many years, they knew both the risks and the law, unfortunately they decided to play fast and loose with laws and plain common sense. If they had not done that, 2 innocent lives would not have been lost. I feel no sympathy at all for the Winters their behaviour caused the incident and they have shown no or at least very little remorse since, apart from for themselves of course. The Wicker and Bembridge families have to live with the consequence of these selfish actions for the rest of their lives.
As several other rational people have said quite calmy, the fundamental point is that the invididuals who were prosecuted and found guilty had been dealing with fireworks for many years, they knew both the risks and the law, unfortunately they decided to play fast and loose with laws and plain common sense. If they had not done that, 2 innocent lives would not have been lost. I feel no sympathy at all for the Winters their behaviour caused the incident and they have shown no or at least very little remorse since, apart from for themselves of course. The Wicker and Bembridge families have to live with the consequence of these selfish actions for the rest of their lives. Blobbyboy
  • Score: 0

8:20am Fri 18 Dec 09

Blobbyboy says...

tracey111 wrote:
monkey-moo has obviously been in prison if they have friends there!!!!
And that is relevant to this discussion because.............
.???
[quote][p][bold]tracey111[/bold] wrote: monkey-moo has obviously been in prison if they have friends there!!!![/p][/quote]And that is relevant to this discussion because............. .??? Blobbyboy
  • Score: 0

10:19am Fri 18 Dec 09

tracey111 says...

Blobbyboy wrote:
tracey111 wrote:
monkey-moo has obviously been in prison if they have friends there!!!!
And that is relevant to this discussion because.............

.???
I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!!
[quote][p][bold]Blobbyboy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]tracey111[/bold] wrote: monkey-moo has obviously been in prison if they have friends there!!!![/p][/quote]And that is relevant to this discussion because............. .???[/p][/quote]I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!! tracey111
  • Score: 0

10:20am Fri 18 Dec 09

tracey111 says...

I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!!
I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!! tracey111
  • Score: 0

10:25am Fri 18 Dec 09

Blobbyboy says...

tracey111 wrote:
I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!!
Please explain the part is sick

Fact: The two invididuals broke the law.
Fact; 2 Firemen died as a result.

There are many other inflamatory comments on here, lets turn your question on its head Tracey and ask how do you the firemans families feel?

They lost them forever not for s short period of time.
[quote][p][bold]tracey111[/bold] wrote: I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!![/p][/quote]Please explain the part is sick Fact: The two invididuals broke the law. Fact; 2 Firemen died as a result. There are many other inflamatory comments on here, lets turn your question on its head Tracey and ask how do you the firemans families feel? They lost them forever not for s short period of time. Blobbyboy
  • Score: 0

10:32am Fri 18 Dec 09

tracey111 says...

Blobbyboy wrote:
tracey111 wrote:
I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!!
Please explain the part is sick

Fact: The two invididuals broke the law.
Fact; 2 Firemen died as a result.

There are many other inflamatory comments on here, lets turn your question on its head Tracey and ask how do you the firemans families feel?

They lost them forever not for s short period of time.
the part that is sick is meeting his friend in the shower in prison!!! I have every sympathy for all families concerned, its terrible and very sad!!!
[quote][p][bold]Blobbyboy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]tracey111[/bold] wrote: I think what you have said is sick!!! Have some consideration to Mr Winter and Nathan Winters family his wife and other children and how upsetting it would be for them to read that disgusting comment!!!!![/p][/quote]Please explain the part is sick Fact: The two invididuals broke the law. Fact; 2 Firemen died as a result. There are many other inflamatory comments on here, lets turn your question on its head Tracey and ask how do you the firemans families feel? They lost them forever not for s short period of time.[/p][/quote]the part that is sick is meeting his friend in the shower in prison!!! I have every sympathy for all families concerned, its terrible and very sad!!! tracey111
  • Score: 0

10:46am Fri 18 Dec 09

Blobbyboy says...

Tracey, I made absolutely no mention in either of my posts about meeting them in prison, that was another author yet you quoted my post, my question to you was as to why it was relevant to the discussion to note that Author may have been in prison?
Tracey, I made absolutely no mention in either of my posts about meeting them in prison, that was another author yet you quoted my post, my question to you was as to why it was relevant to the discussion to note that Author may have been in prison? Blobbyboy
  • Score: 0

10:21pm Fri 18 Dec 09

jonnybebad says...

surely the person/people who should have gone to jail for the needless deaths of these firemen is the bosses who gave the firemen their orders to go in????? but surely not with a video camera?? do firemen have a complete disregard for health and safety??? surely common sense tells you ..if you have a fire and fireworks...then get out....i have thought for a long time that the fire brigade does adopt a very gung ho attitude at times.... if nothing else let lessons be learnt from this....and the winters jail term is rediculous...as was the argus front page yesterday.......
surely the person/people who should have gone to jail for the needless deaths of these firemen is the bosses who gave the firemen their orders to go in????? but surely not with a video camera?? do firemen have a complete disregard for health and safety??? surely common sense tells you ..if you have a fire and fireworks...then get out....i have thought for a long time that the fire brigade does adopt a very gung ho attitude at times.... if nothing else let lessons be learnt from this....and the winters jail term is rediculous...as was the argus front page yesterday....... jonnybebad
  • Score: 0

10:32pm Fri 18 Dec 09

Blobbyboy says...

jonnybebad wrote:
surely the person/people who should have gone to jail for the needless deaths of these firemen is the bosses who gave the firemen their orders to go in????? but surely not with a video camera?? do firemen have a complete disregard for health and safety??? surely common sense tells you ..if you have a fire and fireworks...then get out....i have thought for a long time that the fire brigade does adopt a very gung ho attitude at times.... if nothing else let lessons be learnt from this....and the winters jail term is rediculous...as was the argus front page yesterday.......
Jonny,

If the Winters had not broken the law and stored the fireworks illegally those firemen would never have been there. Mr Winters senior demonstrated several times that he has an unhealthy disregard for the law and unfortunately this time there were serious consequences, it still boils down to the fact the Winters (to use your phrase) gung ho attitude and complacency caused the incident.

As for the video camera, if you read all the other posts, it has been explained very clearly that these are used both as evidence and training exercises. I would imagine a firework fire is not an easy one to practice!
[quote][p][bold]jonnybebad[/bold] wrote: surely the person/people who should have gone to jail for the needless deaths of these firemen is the bosses who gave the firemen their orders to go in????? but surely not with a video camera?? do firemen have a complete disregard for health and safety??? surely common sense tells you ..if you have a fire and fireworks...then get out....i have thought for a long time that the fire brigade does adopt a very gung ho attitude at times.... if nothing else let lessons be learnt from this....and the winters jail term is rediculous...as was the argus front page yesterday.......[/p][/quote]Jonny, If the Winters had not broken the law and stored the fireworks illegally those firemen would never have been there. Mr Winters senior demonstrated several times that he has an unhealthy disregard for the law and unfortunately this time there were serious consequences, it still boils down to the fact the Winters (to use your phrase) gung ho attitude and complacency caused the incident. As for the video camera, if you read all the other posts, it has been explained very clearly that these are used both as evidence and training exercises. I would imagine a firework fire is not an easy one to practice! Blobbyboy
  • Score: 0

1:53pm Sat 19 Dec 09

John Steed says...

the evidence given in court was that the container was being loaded for a display in the middle east.
nobody seems to have asked the question how are fireworks normaly transported around the world (hazardous deck cargo in containers!) and by land, those very same containers? you would be surprised how much may be stored in your local firework specialist shop on the run up to nov 5th each year (I believe its about half a ton) but i expect someone can confirm or correct that statement what is the maximum tonnage allowed in one consignment etc.

as the people who lived closest to the stored fireworks were the winters themselves it beggars belief that they would willingly or deliberately endanger their own lives, yet alone deliberatly endanger the lives of others.

as everyone must realise lewes which puts on the most spectacular displays every year has a number of people licensed to handle and store fireworks, all take the matter very seriously, loose cannons are not tolerated,
the facts that are well known are that the fire officers attending the scene were withdrawn due to the danger of explosion and had the sitution of lack of water.
why were two men whose actions were not in anyway connected with actively fighting or containing the fire allowed to remain in a position of extreme danger which sadly resulted in the tragic loss of life.

the full video should be made available to the public to show the needless risk that was being taken just prior to the explosion
the evidence given in court was that the container was being loaded for a display in the middle east. nobody seems to have asked the question how are fireworks normaly transported around the world (hazardous deck cargo in containers!) and by land, those very same containers? you would be surprised how much may be stored in your local firework specialist shop on the run up to nov 5th each year (I believe its about half a ton) but i expect someone can confirm or correct that statement what is the maximum tonnage allowed in one consignment etc. as the people who lived closest to the stored fireworks were the winters themselves it beggars belief that they would willingly or deliberately endanger their own lives, yet alone deliberatly endanger the lives of others. as everyone must realise lewes which puts on the most spectacular displays every year has a number of people licensed to handle and store fireworks, all take the matter very seriously, loose cannons are not tolerated, the facts that are well known are that the fire officers attending the scene were withdrawn due to the danger of explosion and had the sitution of lack of water. why were two men whose actions were not in anyway connected with actively fighting or containing the fire allowed to remain in a position of extreme danger which sadly resulted in the tragic loss of life. the full video should be made available to the public to show the needless risk that was being taken just prior to the explosion John Steed
  • Score: 0

5:39pm Sat 19 Dec 09

jonnybebad says...

blobby boy...your comments are very reasonable and factual but i watched the video on this website and the only thing that occurs to me is.....whats the point in fighting this fire....lets get out and let it burn?? like many fires that i see on the telly and in real life........farn barn fires....cars in remote area carparks......the west pier??????????? what is the point???excuse me for being cynical....do the army bomb squad have a soldier swaning about with a video camera during a delicate de fusing operation....i think not.....if the fire service insist on using videos cant they be made using a simulator....sorry blobby boy but you know there is no excuse for the loss of these mens life and it lies wholly with the service that employed them...i look forward to seeing the fire chiefs in court in the new year on manslaughter charges.
blobby boy...your comments are very reasonable and factual but i watched the video on this website and the only thing that occurs to me is.....whats the point in fighting this fire....lets get out and let it burn?? like many fires that i see on the telly and in real life........farn barn fires....cars in remote area carparks......the west pier??????????? what is the point???excuse me for being cynical....do the army bomb squad have a soldier swaning about with a video camera during a delicate de fusing operation....i think not.....if the fire service insist on using videos cant they be made using a simulator....sorry blobby boy but you know there is no excuse for the loss of these mens life and it lies wholly with the service that employed them...i look forward to seeing the fire chiefs in court in the new year on manslaughter charges. jonnybebad
  • Score: 0

5:54pm Sat 19 Dec 09

Blobbyboy says...

John Steed, I do accept you make some good points however there was evidence given in court that the "Middle East" container was yet another lie from Mr Winter, there was no evidence at all of the container being booked to travel to the ME, further more the container by the Winters own admission had been on the farm for three years, shipping companies are naturally cautious about what is accepted for travel and adds further evidence to the lie. As for being close to the Winters house, I genuinely belive it was a case of familiarity breeding contempt.
Jonny equally you do make some good points but again, if the Winters had not broken the law, the Fire Brigade would not have been there.
John Steed, I do accept you make some good points however there was evidence given in court that the "Middle East" container was yet another lie from Mr Winter, there was no evidence at all of the container being booked to travel to the ME, further more the container by the Winters own admission had been on the farm for three years, shipping companies are naturally cautious about what is accepted for travel and adds further evidence to the lie. As for being close to the Winters house, I genuinely belive it was a case of familiarity breeding contempt. Jonny equally you do make some good points but again, if the Winters had not broken the law, the Fire Brigade would not have been there. Blobbyboy
  • Score: 0

11:41am Mon 21 Dec 09

tpebop... says...

LB wrote:
tpebop - I expect you take the same 'it's your own fault for standing too close' approach to Britsh bomb disposal teams working in Afghanistan - not the responsibility of the people who put the bomb there in the first place?
Have you ever heard of a controlled explosion ?

This means when it is NOT safe for someone to go in and deal with it, they explode it. Sometimes we ALL get it wrong, but do we ALL push the blame on someone else ? maybe you do.

This also was not safe so best thing to do was to get people at a safe distance, quite simple.

Or are you the type of person that wants to walk in front a but and say he hit me, he is in the wrong.

We all know, with the explosion of you, play with fire you get burnt.

Whoever was in charge made the wrong call, and this was the end result that I am sure everyone is very sorry for.

Muppet !
[quote][p][bold]LB[/bold] wrote: tpebop - I expect you take the same 'it's your own fault for standing too close' approach to Britsh bomb disposal teams working in Afghanistan - not the responsibility of the people who put the bomb there in the first place?[/p][/quote]Have you ever heard of a controlled explosion ? This means when it is NOT safe for someone to go in and deal with it, they explode it. Sometimes we ALL get it wrong, but do we ALL push the blame on someone else ? maybe you do. This also was not safe so best thing to do was to get people at a safe distance, quite simple. Or are you the type of person that wants to walk in front a but and say he hit me, he is in the wrong. We all know, with the explosion of you, play with fire you get burnt. Whoever was in charge made the wrong call, and this was the end result that I am sure everyone is very sorry for. Muppet ! tpebop...
  • Score: 0

8:38pm Thu 24 Dec 09

grumpy old git says...

I'm glad most of those commenting on this weren't on the jury!! Firefighters certainly do not have a gung ho attitude to health & safety as suggested. They are in fact so driven by h&s that it restrains them from doing the job as effectively and efficiently as the public would wish to see. Yes, harsh lessons will be learnt from this tragic event but, the firefighters were only there in the first place because of the total disregard for public safety displayed by the Winters. As for the comments about the Winters losing everything. Tough! They chose to run their business in a reckless manner, they knew the risks and through their actions they destroyed their home and business while bringing tragedy, pain and suffering to those who deserve respect and gratitude from the community the serve.
I'm glad most of those commenting on this weren't on the jury!! Firefighters certainly do not have a gung ho attitude to health & safety as suggested. They are in fact so driven by h&s that it restrains them from doing the job as effectively and efficiently as the public would wish to see. Yes, harsh lessons will be learnt from this tragic event but, the firefighters were only there in the first place because of the total disregard for public safety displayed by the Winters. As for the comments about the Winters losing everything. Tough! They chose to run their business in a reckless manner, they knew the risks and through their actions they destroyed their home and business while bringing tragedy, pain and suffering to those who deserve respect and gratitude from the community the serve. grumpy old git
  • Score: 0

9:06pm Thu 24 Dec 09

Blobbyboy says...

grumpy old git wrote:
I'm glad most of those commenting on this weren't on the jury!! Firefighters certainly do not have a gung ho attitude to health & safety as suggested. They are in fact so driven by h&s that it restrains them from doing the job as effectively and efficiently as the public would wish to see. Yes, harsh lessons will be learnt from this tragic event but, the firefighters were only there in the first place because of the total disregard for public safety displayed by the Winters. As for the comments about the Winters losing everything. Tough! They chose to run their business in a reckless manner, they knew the risks and through their actions they destroyed their home and business while bringing tragedy, pain and suffering to those who deserve respect and gratitude from the community the serve.
Well said Grumpy!
[quote][p][bold]grumpy old git[/bold] wrote: I'm glad most of those commenting on this weren't on the jury!! Firefighters certainly do not have a gung ho attitude to health & safety as suggested. They are in fact so driven by h&s that it restrains them from doing the job as effectively and efficiently as the public would wish to see. Yes, harsh lessons will be learnt from this tragic event but, the firefighters were only there in the first place because of the total disregard for public safety displayed by the Winters. As for the comments about the Winters losing everything. Tough! They chose to run their business in a reckless manner, they knew the risks and through their actions they destroyed their home and business while bringing tragedy, pain and suffering to those who deserve respect and gratitude from the community the serve.[/p][/quote]Well said Grumpy! Blobbyboy
  • Score: 0

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