Brighton and Hove council staff admit: "We ignore the public" (From The Argus)

Scary, has a communist state feel to it

We objected to something local to us, as did many of our neighbours, only for the Council to tell us they didnt receive any objections at all, despite the fact we could prove we sent them. So they went ahead and did what they wanted anyway, however they are now starting the process again, as a petition was submitted. I dont have any faith in this Council.

I firmly believe that the 'shop floor' workers at B&HC do what they can do under very difficult circumstances. The 'top brass' don't give a toss, and just want to get as much money out of the taxpayers, line their pockets, and do as little as possible. Most of them see themselves as mini-politicians, who hide behind red tape, bureaucracy and, quite frankly, blloocks. Arrogant and uncaring, until the local elections are announced, then they start spouting bullshti. What mugs we are...

A result 25 years of Socialist Marxist nurturing and infestation. It's elder brother surely is Liverpool city council.

What a pity, B&H council used to have a real decency about it before Labour got their filthy hands all over it. The real B&H town has long died. In its place we have a grubby, overcrowded and drug infested city. No progress for the better. Just misery for many.

We all know that the 'consultation' exercises the Council often organise are either pure shams or are constructed to give the result they want. In mitigation though one of the problems is the Council often have to implement central government policy whether they (or we) want it or not.
Also, if I can be slightly mischevious, why should they listen to us? What good does it do them? Come election time most people (who don't even know the names of their councillors) won't be voting on how good or bad the council is - they'll be treating it as a glorified opinion poll for the government in Westminster.

kraftwerker wrote:
I firmly believe that the 'shop floor' workers at B&HC do what they can do under very difficult circumstances. The 'top brass' don't give a toss, and just want to get as much money out of the taxpayers, line their pockets, and do as little as possible. Most of them see themselves as mini-politicians, who hide behind red tape, bureaucracy and, quite frankly, blloocks. Arrogant and uncaring, until the local elections are announced, then they start spouting bullshti. What mugs we are...

Yep. Generally, the staff don't get listened to either.

To be fair, most of the public are idiots.

I went along a few weeks ago to ask a Public Question about the stocking and staffing of public libraries, and cited Westminster as a notably well-run music library, and all I got by way of a reply from Councillor David Smith of "culture" was that he wished to be able to challenge me to a duel.

Is it any wonder that residents, and opposition councillors, feel disenchanted with the Council?

After this, it came as no suprise to find that he wants to close down the Local History Centre.

If you consider the strength of public disaproval to many/all of the road modifications (I still can't use their spin word of "improvements") then the above article is no more than confirmation of what we all know to be true. The senior officers come up with jolly wheezes to spend the taxpayers money, and justify their jobs, in spite of serious public disquiet. The senior officers have the councillors in their thrall, and instead of the councillors providing objective governance for their schemes they only act as a rubber stamp. So we end up with a city smothered in traffic lights ( I hate to think of the maintenance cost) instead of roundabouts, cycle paths that very few use, and bus lanes that clog up the main arterial routes. All these types of schemes had been "consulted on" and all opposition totally ignored.

a council application last year for an extension to beach huts along hove seafront was withdrawn due to public objections. only to be approved last week, when sneakily the council put up a small sign for 3 weeks during our worst winter weather of rain wind and snow, whilst seafront at its quietest of people, it went unnoticed and now they have got their way. 3 years ago a very large petition against a skate park at hove lagoon was whitewashed and it went ahead now causing problems at tax payers expense.

salty_pete wrote:
If you consider the strength of public disaproval to many/all of the road modifications (I still can't use their spin word of "improvements") then the above article is no more than confirmation of what we all know to be true. The senior officers come up with jolly wheezes to spend the taxpayers money, and justify their jobs, in spite of serious public disquiet. The senior officers have the councillors in their thrall, and instead of the councillors providing objective governance for their schemes they only act as a rubber stamp. So we end up with a city smothered in traffic lights ( I hate to think of the maintenance cost) instead of roundabouts, cycle paths that very few use, and bus lanes that clog up the main arterial routes. All these types of schemes had been "consulted on" and all opposition totally ignored.

Absolutely 100% spot on. We've suffered badly from this up at Fiveways (after the typical non-consultation). They can always find a few 'useful idiots' they can wheel out to act as cheerleaders whilst the majority of the residents now have to crawl around the Fiveways area, pumping out C02, looking for somewhere legal to park. And before anybody starts I speak as (pretty much) a non-driver!
Up here we have two useless stretches of cycle lane (by Hollingbury Park). No one wanted them, even the cyclists say they are in an area where there wasn't a problem, but the money was allocated and it had to be spent.

This is what you get when you vote Conservative...



What did you expect...?

Another Argus news story with an innaccurate headline, the report didn't actually say they ignore the public.
The Headline came from the following:- But 58% of the councillors and 56% of the staff "thought that the council did not take action in response". Hardly the same thing Andy Chiles!
Paul Elgood seems to always be on hand to give quotes to the Argus rather than doing his councillors job - is he employed by the Argus? I think we should be told!

BUT are they really going to do anything about it or just fiddle some scorecard so they look good and some idiot at the top gets a bigger bonus:(

When I enquired why our public consultation on parking restrictions which came out exactly 50% for and 50% against was deemed to be a "YES". I was told by the council that "a public consultation is not a public vote, the councillors make their own decision".
Pretty clear really.

David523 wrote:
This is what you get when you vote Conservative...



What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN!

But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party.

Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich.

Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up.

What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes....

To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

censored wrote:
To be fair, most of the public are idiots.

**** right.

You don't have to go far to find examples either....

Sadly this 'news' isn't really news at all but I reckon a lot of us knew that all along. Just a little comforting to know the Council now admit it! I have little faith that their proposed meeting about it will bear any fruit.

I think it's only fair, as I tend to ignore them as much as possible.

Well why are we surprised, this is something that has gone on for years accross the parties, local goverment is only interested in the rich its special worthy groups, B&H has the south east's worst housing problem and what do they spend there time and money on!!, fancy car park schemes and silly over the top cycle lanes and an idea to introduce a congestion charge with a huge bill just for consultations, its a bit like buying fags and booze and then having no money for food, come on local goverment represent everybody not just a select few, forget glass lifts to work and funding for work shops to make things no one wants, we have the highest unemployment in Sussex (apart from hastings) and what do they plan!! a new brighton centre, just what we need to attract more cheap labour.

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich.

Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up.

What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes....

To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

Very true. The same party that has wrecked B&H with it's input since the 1980's have now wrecked the whole country. The lunatic Brown has borrowed so much and sold much of our gold reserves to the point where the UK really is penniless(the Conservatives do not want to reveal the true seriousness of the situation for fear of alienating the voters). So Brown goes on and on printing money. Soon the Pound will be worth as much as monopoly money. So much for a reinvented Labour Party. Deja vu 1979!!

I'm sure after a few years when all the dust has settled and Cameron is in No 10 we'll see one of those documentaries on TV revealing what a complete loony Brown was(though many know this already) and how much out of touch with reality he really was and that will be from his former so called closest aids.

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich.

Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up.

What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes....

To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

I agree with Mary Hinge!!!

We are a Residents Association of about 290 members. Through our Local Cllr Paul Elgood we have managed to get heard and taken notice of. There is strength in numbers.
So my advice to all who moan is form a Residents Association and get your local councillor working with you.

The Tories cannot be blamed for the undemocratic cabinet system. It was the Labour councillors who forced it through (back when they controlled the city council) as they obviously saw it as an ideal way of silencing opposition parties. But - shock, horror - they were roundly booted out, and so to cry about it now is hypocrisy in its purest form.

I experienced the way the council worked under Labour and agree with the above posts - I much prefer the Tories as the majority party. I write unflattering things about the Tories, but they have never had the Head of law at the Council write me a letter threatening me with "legal and/or other action" as Labour did. With Labour, it was threats, threats, threats to anyone who disagreed with them. Of course they're so gutless they never carried out any legal actions, and, of course, the various accusations they made against residents were completely fraudulent.

Tony Davenport

David523 wrote:
This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

I think you'll find it was the Labour Government who insisted the Council Operate a Cabinet system.....they just didn't reckon on the Tories taking it over. "Ever been had" Gordo !

Next.......

This is truely a shocking headline but something most people were already aware of, be it local or national. So not exactly news!

This explains why I've been waiting five months and counting for a reply from Brighton Council's refuse and recycling department. Tony Soprano would do a better job.

All you get in B&H is box ticking. One of my councillors doesn't even reply to letters, he just passes them on to council staff to reply. He will get one less vote at the next election. When you do get a reply it is obvious that the councillors and council staff are not interested in our opinions. All we get in replies is them justiying what they have done and ignoring our views. The national government is no better. This is what you get from equality which means we have people elected with no experience of anything but they fit the equality rules.

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich. Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up. What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes.... To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

I've said it before and I'll say it again becuase it never seems to go in - its a GLOBAL recession caused by a unique set of GLOBAL circumstances. If you are to blame anyone, direct your ire at Alan Greenspan; he even admits that it was his inaction on two fronts (keeping interest rates in the US too low for too long and his believe that markest self-regulate) that led to the circumstances behind the GLOBAL crash. The 'muppets' as you refer to them and their actions are now recognised as saving us from a complete global depression far worse, deeper and greater than the recession that is currently drawing to a close; rather those 'muppets' than the Tories who are advocating stopping all spending and all support which can only have one effect - a complete collapse of our economy.

Frankly I find many of the posts on this thread terrifying. Anyone who thinks 'Dave' Cameron and his toff mates have the answer to anything is sadly deluded.
Unfortunately Blair/Brown have totally wasted a golden opportunity to implement some really progressive social policies in this country.
What is needed is a total overhaul of the political system in the UK. Until that happens, it doesn't much matter who you get, apart from the fact that the tories are a bit nastier than 'new' labour.
I'm unlikely to vote in the future for any of them - they are all in the pockets of big business...

Hasn't anybody realised, this isn't a conspiracy, they're just a bit sh1t...it's incompetency, not something arrogant or blasé.
Councillors maybe arrogant sometimes but the actual people that work for the council are the same as you & me, which means they're a bit sh1t sometimes.
Things get lost, mislaid, mistaken for something else, it's easy to do.
Not me, obviously, I'm spot on, 100% at all times. Anyone know of any jobs going...?

scthetruth wrote:

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich. Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up. What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes.... To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

Very true. The same party that has wrecked B&H with it's input since the 1980's have now wrecked the whole country. The lunatic Brown has borrowed so much and sold much of our gold reserves to the point where the UK really is penniless(the Conservatives do not want to reveal the true seriousness of the situation for fear of alienating the voters). So Brown goes on and on printing money. Soon the Pound will be worth as much as monopoly money. So much for a reinvented Labour Party. Deja vu 1979!! I'm sure after a few years when all the dust has settled and Cameron is in No 10 we'll see one of those documentaries on TV revealing what a complete loony Brown was(though many know this already) and how much out of touch with reality he really was and that will be from his former so called closest aids.

Actually Brown sold the gold and brought Euros - and then made a huge profit on doing so - something your kind seem to forget completely about (or deliberately ignore).

bug eye wrote:
a council application last year for an extension to beach huts along hove seafront was withdrawn due to public objections. only to be approved last week, when sneakily the council put up a small sign for 3 weeks during our worst winter weather of rain wind and snow, whilst seafront at its quietest of people, it went unnoticed and now they have got their way. 3 years ago a very large petition against a skate park at hove lagoon was whitewashed and it went ahead now causing problems at tax payers expense.

Yep, and we got new retail units about to be built right next to the Coop on Lewes road. The local residents group objected to the plan, and a large number of local residents not in that group also objecte to it.

The large unit is destined to be a Tesco. Something really needed there, and there are currently well over 2000 people who don't want that!

So yep they listen. They then got and do what they like.

scthetruth wrote:
A result 25 years of Socialist Marxist nurturing and infestation. It's elder brother surely is Liverpool city council.

What a pity, B&H council used to have a real decency about it before Labour got their filthy hands all over it. The real B&H town has long died. In its place we have a grubby, overcrowded and drug infested city. No progress for the better. Just misery for many.

Ahem, you seem to be completely unaware of one simple fact:

B&H council has an overall Conservative majority!

There was a time when Hove was solid Tory, and Brighton was mostly Labour.

Since they were combined the Conservatives have had the upper hand.

Over in Brighton, we used to look at Hove and think what an awful scruffy place it was when you got away from the main shopping areas, and it was notorious for difficult parking. (Well compared with Brighton)

Since the two were combined we have seen the same conditions creep into Brighton.

Just where does the money go?

nodrog must be talking about a completely different Brighton and Hove to the one we are all living in.

Check your facts, kiddo.

Labour ran it (into the ground some might say) for years. The Tories formed an administration 3 years ago.

Tony Davenport

bug eye wrote:
a council application last year for an extension to beach huts along hove seafront was withdrawn due to public objections. only to be approved last week, when sneakily the council put up a small sign for 3 weeks during our worst winter weather of rain wind and snow, whilst seafront at its quietest of people, it went unnoticed and now they have got their way. 3 years ago a very large petition against a skate park at hove lagoon was whitewashed and it went ahead now causing problems at tax payers expense.

What problems are there a the lagoon?

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich.

Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up.

What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes....

To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

It's a global recession. Do you really think it would have been any different under the Tories?

Do you not remember 15% interest rates!!!!

Sweepster wrote:

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich. Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up. What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes.... To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

It's a global recession. Do you really think it would have been any different under the Tories? Do you not remember 15% interest rates!!!!

Yeah it's a global recession caused by a number of factors, but made 10x worse by the out of control housing bubble in the UK - caused by Mr G Brown's policies. Remember when he said "I will not let the housing market run out of control"? Or "no more boom and bust"? Or "we are on the verge of a golden age of prosperity" (c) G Brown 2007?

And he's still hoping the housing market will boom again to prop up his appalling management of the economy.

That's why we are the last member of the G20 to still be in recession. So much for it being "shorter and shallower" like he said it would be if he spent billions of taxpayers' cash.

Do you not remember marginal tax rates of 98% under labour? Oh no I forgot to wear my rose tinted specs. Of course when you add 11% NI to the 50% top rate of tax, and then add all the stealth taxes like council tax, we're nearly there again already!

Anyone who is thinking of voting labour because they think the tories are the same as they were 13 years ago is fundamentally deluded... and has probably forgotten about the biggest clampdown of civil liberties since time began, an illegal invasion of iraq, etc... I could go on.

I have no complaints about a 50% tax bracket. Take a look at Scandinavia.

A reminder – income tax rates the last time Labour left office in 1979 :

0 - 750 25%
751 - 8000 33%
8001 - 9000 40%
9001 - 10000 45%
10001 - 11000 50%
11001 - 12500 55%
12501 - 14000 60%
14001 - 16000 65%
16001 - 18500 70%
18501 - 24000 75%
over - 24000 83%

For so called “unearned” income I.E. savings income in the range £1,701 to £ 2,250 add 10% to the above rates and in excess of £2,250 add 15% - giving the infamous Labour top rate of 98%

RickH wrote:

scthetruth wrote:

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich. Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up. What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes.... To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

Very true. The same party that has wrecked B&H with it's input since the 1980's have now wrecked the whole country. The lunatic Brown has borrowed so much and sold much of our gold reserves to the point where the UK really is penniless(the Conservatives do not want to reveal the true seriousness of the situation for fear of alienating the voters). So Brown goes on and on printing money. Soon the Pound will be worth as much as monopoly money. So much for a reinvented Labour Party. Deja vu 1979!! I'm sure after a few years when all the dust has settled and Cameron is in No 10 we'll see one of those documentaries on TV revealing what a complete loony Brown was(though many know this already) and how much out of touch with reality he really was and that will be from his former so called closest aids.

Actually Brown sold the gold and brought Euros - and then made a huge profit on doing so - something your kind seem to forget completely about (or deliberately ignore).

"Actually" Brown sold our gold reserves (without any consultation - oops sorry, that would be democratic) when the price of gold was at an extremely low point and certainly did NOT make a huge profit! (unless you are a Mirror reader - oxymoron). At the current time gold is in extreme demand and prices are high. If he had waited, he could have phoned cash4gold or some other advert we cannot escape and made ALOT of money. The sorry truth is that Brown needed to sell our gold reserves to hide his decade of incompetence as chancellor.

Thumper Hove wrote:

RickH wrote:

scthetruth wrote:

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich. Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up. What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes.... To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

Very true. The same party that has wrecked B&H with it's input since the 1980's have now wrecked the whole country. The lunatic Brown has borrowed so much and sold much of our gold reserves to the point where the UK really is penniless(the Conservatives do not want to reveal the true seriousness of the situation for fear of alienating the voters). So Brown goes on and on printing money. Soon the Pound will be worth as much as monopoly money. So much for a reinvented Labour Party. Deja vu 1979!! I'm sure after a few years when all the dust has settled and Cameron is in No 10 we'll see one of those documentaries on TV revealing what a complete loony Brown was(though many know this already) and how much out of touch with reality he really was and that will be from his former so called closest aids.

Actually Brown sold the gold and brought Euros - and then made a huge profit on doing so - something your kind seem to forget completely about (or deliberately ignore).

"Actually" Brown sold our gold reserves (without any consultation - oops sorry, that would be democratic) when the price of gold was at an extremely low point and certainly did NOT make a huge profit! (unless you are a Mirror reader - oxymoron). At the current time gold is in extreme demand and prices are high. If he had waited, he could have phoned cash4gold or some other advert we cannot escape and made ALOT of money. The sorry truth is that Brown needed to sell our gold reserves to hide his decade of incompetence as chancellor.

And now he's to blame for not having a crystal ball that would tell him to hold onto the gold because the price in 2010 would be higher than etc etc - overly high expectations there, I believe. And as for the democratic statement, unless you want the plebescite single-issue democratic system that currently exists in Switzerland, are you seriously suggesting that any and every major decision made by a government Minister should be put to a vote - thats a recipe for complete paralysis of government (and assuming that all those entitled to vote are able to understand the issue and the rammifications of voting either way - go ask the 'average' Sun reader to explain what a plebescite is and sit back and enjoy the fun!)

RickH wrote:

Thumper Hove wrote:

RickH wrote:

scthetruth wrote:

Masterchav wrote:

Forbes Coleman wrote:

David523 wrote: This is what you get when you vote Conservative... What did you expect...?

A-FCKUING-MEN! But what's the scariest thing? The Tories are most likely to get in in May. Why? Because people forget we have more than one party. Don't come crying to me when the poor get more handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are bent over and rammed home.

That's a bit rich. Frankly I'd rather have the Tories than the same bunch of complete muppets who led us into the single biggest recession since records began and who've spent all the money so that there's nothing left to help us get out of recession when things start to pick up. What next, are they going to start using the National Lottery to finance the NHS, police, etc? No money left for community causes.... To coin a phrase, "don't come crying to me when the poor get less handouts, the rich get richer, and the middle earners are shafted by Labour again if they win the election".

Very true. The same party that has wrecked B&H with it's input since the 1980's have now wrecked the whole country. The lunatic Brown has borrowed so much and sold much of our gold reserves to the point where the UK really is penniless(the Conservatives do not want to reveal the true seriousness of the situation for fear of alienating the voters). So Brown goes on and on printing money. Soon the Pound will be worth as much as monopoly money. So much for a reinvented Labour Party. Deja vu 1979!! I'm sure after a few years when all the dust has settled and Cameron is in No 10 we'll see one of those documentaries on TV revealing what a complete loony Brown was(though many know this already) and how much out of touch with reality he really was and that will be from his former so called closest aids.

Actually Brown sold the gold and brought Euros - and then made a huge profit on doing so - something your kind seem to forget completely about (or deliberately ignore).

"Actually" Brown sold our gold reserves (without any consultation - oops sorry, that would be democratic) when the price of gold was at an extremely low point and certainly did NOT make a huge profit! (unless you are a Mirror reader - oxymoron). At the current time gold is in extreme demand and prices are high. If he had waited, he could have phoned cash4gold or some other advert we cannot escape and made ALOT of money. The sorry truth is that Brown needed to sell our gold reserves to hide his decade of incompetence as chancellor.

And now he's to blame for not having a crystal ball that would tell him to hold onto the gold because the price in 2010 would be higher than etc etc - overly high expectations there, I believe. And as for the democratic statement, unless you want the plebescite single-issue democratic system that currently exists in Switzerland, are you seriously suggesting that any and every major decision made by a government Minister should be put to a vote - thats a recipe for complete paralysis of government (and assuming that all those entitled to vote are able to understand the issue and the rammifications of voting either way - go ask the 'average' Sun reader to explain what a plebescite is and sit back and enjoy the fun!)

Oh dear.... there's always one isn't there

Troll Tactic No 1: the moment you don't understand or are unable to counter a point, resort to personal insult.

RickH wrote:
Troll Tactic No 1: the moment you don't understand or are unable to counter a point, resort to personal insult.

Well if you're going to come on a comment board and write tosh, what do you expect? And you want ME to counter your point, when you have reacted badly to someone else who has already correctly countered your (factually incorrect) point?

You said earlier that Brown sold the gold and bought euros, making "a huge profit".

The fact is that he made a practically $9bn loss. Not a "huge profit" then.

Read the facts here: http://www.bbc.co.uk
/blogs/thereporters/
robertpeston/2008/03
/gold_and_gordon_bro
wn.html

Oh, and by the way, it's "plebiscite", not "plebescite".

RickH wrote:
Troll Tactic No 1: the moment you don't understand or are unable to counter a point, resort to personal insult.

Typical New Labour tactic - accuse the person of doing exactly what you are doing yourself. It isn't the Tories but Labour who truly are "the nasty party".

Where are the facts to back up your argument that Brown made such a wonderful profit? In fact he ignored the advise of experts. What was sold for $2.5 billion would have been worth $10 billion today. FACT. It's even documented in parliamentary questions. They even announced that they were going to sell, making gold prices drop further.

Tony Davenport

Masterchav wrote:

RickH wrote: Troll Tactic No 1: the moment you don't understand or are unable to counter a point, resort to personal insult.

Well if you're going to come on a comment board and write tosh, what do you expect? And you want ME to counter your point, when you have reacted badly to someone else who has already correctly countered your (factually incorrect) point? You said earlier that Brown sold the gold and bought euros, making "a huge profit". The fact is that he made a practically $9bn loss. Not a "huge profit" then. Read the facts here: http://www.bbc.co.uk /blogs/thereporters/ robertpeston/2008/03 /gold_and_gordon_bro wn.html Oh, and by the way, it's "plebiscite", not "plebescite".

And sadly the article only proves a theoretical loss had the gold been sold or not sold when comparing the cost of same then compared to now and not the any potential profit made from buying bonds in Euros, Yen and Dollars at that point. Or put another way...

"So we appear to have lost out on $9bn of gains – or about $300 per taxpayer. However, that’s a slightly simplistic view of the scale of our loss. The $3.5bn of revenue raised in the sales was invested in interest-bearing assets denominated in dollars, euros and yen to the extent of 40%, 40% and 20% respectively. So to calculate the true net loss to the taxpayer, I would have to adjust for the yield on these assets and movements in the value of those currencies." You'll note the use of the word simplistic (the authors words, not mine) from the very same article you cite as 'proof'. I also note its from The Times - hardly a pro-Brown or Labour publication at best of times.

Maybe, like the author, you need to go away, find the cost of Euros and the other currency mentioned then and now, what the bonds have since yielded and redo the sums before the point is conceded.

And BTW: Troll Tactic Number 2: focus on any spelling or grammatical errors rather than the point to hand.

Tony Davenport wrote:

RickH wrote: Troll Tactic No 1: the moment you don't understand or are unable to counter a point, resort to personal insult.

Typical New Labour tactic - accuse the person of doing exactly what you are doing yourself. It isn't the Tories but Labour who truly are "the nasty party". Where are the facts to back up your argument that Brown made such a wonderful profit? In fact he ignored the advise of experts. What was sold for $2.5 billion would have been worth $10 billion today. FACT. It's even documented in parliamentary questions. They even announced that they were going to sell, making gold prices drop further. Tony Davenport

For the record:
1. I do recognise the certain level of irony in the post but the point remains ie focus your comments on the point to hand rather than the person making the comment;
2. I am not nor have ever been a New Labour supporter nor a fan of GB;
3. With reference to point 1, a further contribution by same person correcting my spelling only reinforces Rule 1.

Oh - and citing a two-year-old article quoting two-year-old prices is hardly very accurate, especially given the rapid rise in value of the Euro over the same period.

RickH wrote:
Oh - and citing a two-year-old article quoting two-year-old prices is hardly very accurate, especially given the rapid rise in value of the Euro over the same period.

I think if you're looking for trolls you should maybe take a look in the mirror. You posted something that was manifestly wrong, but are still trying to defend it in a rather aggressive style.

As for your point about the price of euros, a little research would reveal that the euro is now about 20% higher than it was then. Big deal. It doesn't cover a $9bn loss.

And I couldn't help noticing that you've chosen to leave out a rather telling sentence from the Peston article:

"It is probable, however, that the effective net loss on Gordon Brown’s great gold sale would be a bit less than $9bn – but it would still be a very significant loss."

Oh, and it wasn't from the Times, it was from the BBC.

Here you are RickH - here's an article from just 6 days ago.

http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/news/newstopi
cs/politics/labour/4
162054/Gordon-Browns
-decision-to-sell-ha
lf-of-the-UKs-gold-r
eserves-cost-UK-5bil
lion.html

Now let's assume it wasn't a disastrously stupid move. Let's suppose the Bank of England and other experts supported it.

Why would Gordon Brown:

a) Refuse to reveal the advice given to him?

b) Not crow about how much money he had made on the deal?

Now the true figure of loss may never be known, but the fact is it was a monumentally stupid move, against expert advice, and it has lost the taxpayer a considerable sum of money.

Tony Davenport

Brighton's a great place. If you want to know how great, try spending just a couple of hours in Burgess Hill. I guarantee you'll never slag Brighton off again.

Colin Houlson wrote:
This explains why I've been waiting five months and counting for a reply from Brighton Council's refuse and recycling department. Tony Soprano would do a better job.

I've been waiting for a reply from Cityclean to an email sent in April last year, despite re-sending my email...so don't hold your breath - they're so incompetent and arrogant that they most likely will never reply!

Masterchav wrote:

RickH wrote: Oh - and citing a two-year-old article quoting two-year-old prices is hardly very accurate, especially given the rapid rise in value of the Euro over the same period.

I think if you're looking for trolls you should maybe take a look in the mirror. You posted something that was manifestly wrong, but are still trying to defend it in a rather aggressive style. As for your point about the price of euros, a little research would reveal that the euro is now about 20% higher than it was then. Big deal. It doesn't cover a $9bn loss. And I couldn't help noticing that you've chosen to leave out a rather telling sentence from the Peston article: "It is probable, however, that the effective net loss on Gordon Brown’s great gold sale would be a bit less than $9bn – but it would still be a very significant loss." Oh, and it wasn't from the Times, it was from the BBC.

Gentlemen, my apologies for the delay in getting back (life intervenes). That said, I withdraw my comment about the selling of gold and buying Euros making a profit - I must learn not to make statements that then can't be backed up by a source (as I'm sure others can learn the same).
However my research has shown that to calculate the loss solely on the price of gold then and now is overly simplistic (Tony Davenport take note) as it does not include any nominal profits from the bonds (including the 20% increase in the value of the Euro) which will contribute to off-setting the loss from the sale of the gold to a greater extent than many are prepared to recognise; indeed this is one of the comments in the BBC article lower down the page. By my back-of-envelope calculations and based on the latest (2007) figures I 'guess-timate' the loss to be currently standing at around £3bn to £4bn (way off the £10bn which is bandied around based on the simple calculation) and based on both the US Dollar and Yen staying at the same value; the figure might be slightly lower yet again given the Dollar's rise. This is coincidently around the same loss - £3.3bn - that occured during 'Black Wednesday' when Sterling dopped out of the ERM; an incident that many political commentators state is on a par with Brown's decision when its comes to political ****-ups (see:http://en.wikip
edia.org/wiki/Brown_
Bottom). So maybe both parties are as bad as each other (or should that be the score is 1 -1). Other minor points: I accept article was BBC rather than Times (I was also reading a Times article at same time on same subject so a little confusion on my part); cite the Telegraph all you like TD, I'd rather use a polically neutral source like the BBC; we are all as guilty as one-another (Masterchav) on selectively quoting the BBC article which does make for very interesting reading; I stand by my comments re attack the issue rather than the person via personal insult (or their spelling) in order to strengthen one's own position - it's a cheap tactic that runs all kinds of risks in the face-to-face world but resorted to all too often when sat in-front of your screen (just coz you're in the Internet, it doesn't mean that all social conventions are suspended); with that in mind I apologise if I appeared aggressive (another downside in this form of communication is loss of innonation of voice), my arguments were meant to be a robust challenge; and I re-state that I'm not a supporter of either GB nor New Labour but someone with a very keen interest in politics (note the small p) and such matters.