Brighton ducks at risk from dogs, park campaigners claim (From The Argus)
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Brighton ducks at risk from dogs, park campaigners claim
2:10pm Monday 19th July 2010 in
Battle lines have been drawn between rivals in the great dogs versus ducks controversy.
The row erupted after Brighton and Hove City Council abolished a dog-free area in Queen’s Park, Brighton, which led to complaints that ducks at the pond were being harassed.
Campaigners from both sides have now presented their cases to the council’s environment cabinet member Geoffrey Theobald.
Amanda Brace, 45, of Freshfield Road, Brighton, urged the Conservative councillor to restore the ban.
She said: “This is a bit more than just dogs versus ducks. It is about all users of the park, especially children.
“We do not want dog owners to feel victimised. But as it goes on it is creating more problems and more confrontation.
“One after-school group has even started using Tarner Park.”
The dog-free area was created in the 1970s but the ban was repealed in January 2009.
Ward councillor Rachel Fryer presented a petition signed by 1,901 people, 15% of which were dog owners, asking for a reinstatement of the area.
A counter-petition of 333 signatures was presented by Paul Mendlesohn who said: “Dog walkers use most parks and public spaces in Britain without problems or difficulties.
“The previous order led to overcrowding in the dog-friendly area when the rest of the park was often empty.”
Coun Theobald said: “I’m reluctant to become embroiled in another issue where there are differences of opinion.
The previous byelaws were inconsistent, confusing and difficult to enforce.
“When the decision was discussed in 2007 and 2008 there were no formal representations against the change from residents or councillors.
“Before embarking upon a public consultation I need to be certain this is the course of action the vast majority of residents want.”
Comments(39)
tombraider59
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3:25pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Dyno
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3:35pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Old Ladys Gin
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3:46pm Mon 19 Jul 10
It seems obvious that any dog in the park must be on a lead at all times.
It is 100 percent natural for any dog to want to chase birds and rabbits, it is their inbred hunting instinct, and when in the mood they don't distinguish between duck and young child.
Dogs should be kept on a lead at all times except when contact with children is guaranteed not to occur.
lowebrighton
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3:59pm Mon 19 Jul 10
He could then consider the support from Governors and Heads of local schools, from wildlife conservation groups, from local councillors and from the MP for Kemptown.
It should then be evident that the Queens Park Community clearly love their park and are determined to keep a section of it people, children and wildlife friendly.
This community is not anti-dog. The many photographs in the Leader and Argus this weekend of our recent dog show ('Bark in the Park') show that.
Metro Reader
says...
4:12pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Can the council not make any decisions without have to hold consultancy first?
No wonder we pay so much council tax.
Dogs should be on a lead at all times and muzzled! If you want to exercise your dog, use the dog allocated beach area or devils dyke. And clean the **** up!
AllieGreenhouse
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4:15pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Brampton_Horritt
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4:53pm Mon 19 Jul 10
It should works both ways though - and it's a constant source of amusement when a group of people pull out a picnic in the middle of the dog area......you can pick up dog mess, but can't do much about the wet grass......
Read the signs like the rest of us do - move to the dog free zone - or put up with the dogs running off with your sausages and damp bums!!!
Ya wine me UP, 'sta
says...
5:17pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Patrick Mustard
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5:19pm Mon 19 Jul 10
Brampton_Horritt wrote:A dog running off with my sausage and damp bum, doesn't sound like fun
We walk our dog in Queens Park on a very regular basis and quite like the fact the park is separated - the vast majority of people respect this and even keep their dogs on leads on the communal walkways. It should works both ways though - and it's a constant source of amusement when a group of people pull out a picnic in the middle of the dog area......you can pick up dog mess, but can't do much about the wet grass...... Read the signs like the rest of us do - move to the dog free zone - or put up with the dogs running off with your sausages and damp bums!!!
Peter the Great
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5:39pm Mon 19 Jul 10
joanne77
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5:50pm Mon 19 Jul 10
davyboy
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7:42pm Mon 19 Jul 10
joanne77
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9:07pm Mon 19 Jul 10
davyboy wrote:so should some kids!!!
dog owners have to be responsible for their pets, and to that end must obey any bye-laws. in my opinion, all dogs should be on a lead and muzzled.
QueensParkMark
says...
9:14pm Mon 19 Jul 10
The dog-free area was removed without any of us knowing about the decision or being able to have any say. No locals were asked and the council consultation at the time concentrated on the beach. Now a minority of dog-owners who selfishly want to have the run of the whole park for themselves have got their way.
Cllr Theobald, please give us back our park!
bertnz
says...
10:02pm Mon 19 Jul 10
The ducks are not harmed as after about 5 minutes of running around he lets go....
I'm happy to let my pip off the leash catch a duck have a swim... no one or nothing is hurt... we all leave with a poo bags, all content and happy.
joanne77
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10:18pm Mon 19 Jul 10
chipmunk77
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11:33pm Mon 19 Jul 10
security words: tasty tasty very very tasty
Tally Ho!
says...
12:09am Tue 20 Jul 10
bertnz wrote:What about the foxes.......They kill ducks too!
My black lab, loves jumping in the pond and coming out with a nice sized mallard in its chops..... that is what his breed does !!
The ducks are not harmed as after about 5 minutes of running around he lets go....
I'm happy to let my pip off the leash catch a duck have a swim... no one or nothing is hurt... we all leave with a poo bags, all content and happy.
Lets hold a consultation and discuss that...On Horseback with Dogs!....
TALLY HO!
bertnz
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3:30am Tue 20 Jul 10
Tally Ho! wrote:touche touche Tally Ho.... But I dont have a pet fox, come to think of it nor a horse..so count me out of your consultation
bertnz wrote: My black lab, loves jumping in the pond and coming out with a nice sized mallard in its chops..... that is what his breed does !! The ducks are not harmed as after about 5 minutes of running around he lets go.... I'm happy to let my pip off the leash catch a duck have a swim... no one or nothing is hurt... we all leave with a poo bags, all content and happy.What about the foxes.......They kill ducks too! Lets hold a consultation and discuss that...On Horseback with Dogs!.... TALLY HO!
stan bailey
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7:18am Tue 20 Jul 10
QueensParkMark wrote:I use wild park and they are cutting down the trees and turning it into a sheep farm - and we are paying the shepherd to graze his sheep there -bonkers.
The Argus is completely misreporting the story - it's not dogs vs ducks - but it is all about Council mistakes blighting the lives of thousands of adults and children who use Queen's Park. We had a lovely, clean, safe dog-free area for picnics, sports, sun-bathing and children's play, and now all this is being ruined.
The dog-free area was removed without any of us knowing about the decision or being able to have any say. No locals were asked and the council consultation at the time concentrated on the beach. Now a minority of dog-owners who selfishly want to have the run of the whole park for themselves have got their way.
Cllr Theobald, please give us back our park!
1of2mums
says...
8:22am Tue 20 Jul 10
lowebrighton wrote:My thoughts exactly! What more evidence does Councillor Theobald want?
If Councillor Theobald needs to be persuaded of what the 'vast majority of residents' of Queens Park want, he could start with the petition which 1,901 of them so readily signed.
He could then consider the support from Governors and Heads of local schools, from wildlife conservation groups, from local councillors and from the MP for Kemptown.
It should then be evident that the Queens Park Community clearly love their park and are determined to keep a section of it people, children and wildlife friendly.
This community is not anti-dog. The many photographs in the Leader and Argus this weekend of our recent dog show ('Bark in the Park') show that.
As other commenters have said, we knew nothing about this change until it had already happened. It never occurred to anyone that the council would be seeking to disrupt an arrangement that had been working well in Queens Park for many years. Even the park ranger didn't know about it.
If we had known, Councillor Theobald can be assured that we would have protested strongly.
I don't agree with those who say dogs must be kept on leads all the time. I understand that dogs need to run.
But children need to run too, and they need plenty of space in which they can do that without fear of stepping in poo or being chased by a dog.
QueensParkMark has it right. Please give us back our park.
Uncle_Meat
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10:58am Tue 20 Jul 10
I presume the area around the the children's play area and old bowling green that that was vandalised are still dog free?
Dyno
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11:36am Tue 20 Jul 10
While walking through the part of the park where dogs were always allowed, I noticed 4 areas where dogs mess was not cleared up. I only walked in a direct line through area. Normally I use the path around the grass.
Im unhappy the children will have to perform school events in an area where dogs mess is now going to start appearing, and sitting\placing items under the shade in trees that have been coated in urine by the dogs while they mark their territory.
Im all for a area being dog exclusive. I think the dogs need a run and should not be muzzled unless required to. Dog owners use the park more than most people so should have an exclusive area of an adequate size. Shame the Park can nolonger be seperated so dog owners have their part for excersising their dogs, and non dog owners can sit in an area free of mess. (Although I acknowledge the majority of dog owners are considerate and do clean up after their dogs. Its just a few lazy idiots.)
lowebrighton
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11:51am Tue 20 Jul 10
Species have arrived and settled.
Park Rangers, Gardeners and Volunteers have worked extremely hard to nurture existing habitats and create new ones.
The council's action in allowing dogs to roam in two of these areas is (at least, in spirit; at worst, in law) in breach of two separate pieces of UK wildlife legislation.
2010 is the United Nations International Year of Biodiversity.
Brighton Council is on the brink of becoming a laughing stock!
J.J. McQuade
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12:32pm Tue 20 Jul 10
....
paul@code
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10:49am Wed 21 Jul 10
This headline is a bit of scaremongering from those who would ban dogs from Queens Park. The problem with the proposed ban is that should it go ahead it could set a negative precedent, other residents may lobby for bans in their parks and even the beaches. There was a wide public consultation about dog access in 2009 and the conclusion was to allow dogs in most of our beaches and public spaces.
To revisit the consultation is in my view a waste of public funds and also goes against the spirit of Brighton and Hove. We are fortunate to live in a place where we have a rich diversity and a general lack of discrimination, which are some of the reasons that we are so popular with visitors.
It would be a shame if Brighton and Hove became a place that was difficult for visitors and locals who have dogs.
Paul Mendlesohn
Lead petitioner to keep Queens Park dog-friendly.
lowebrighton
says...
1:54pm Wed 21 Jul 10
His petition title 'Do not ban Dogs from Queens Park' was similarly misleading.
No one has ever suggested banning dogs from Queens Park.
Dogs and their owners are welcome here, as he would have found out if he had come to our wonderful dog show last week.
Paul asserts that 'dogs can't catch ducks'.
He is wrong.
The one remaining duck on the pond did have a mate. This was killed by a dog in August 2009. There were many witnesses including distressed children.
It is true that so far the Geese have survived dog attacks without serious injury.
However both they and the moorhens use the island area to nest.
It is an offence under the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act to knowingly disturb the habitat of nesting birds.
Paul refers to 'widespread consultation'. Of the 250 park users I spoke to, none were aware of any debate concerning their park.
Unlike in other parks the Friends of Queens Park were not consulted by the council. Neither was Lindsay our park ranger and neither was the city ecologist.
Paul has got his dates wrong.. he means 2007/2008. The law was changed in January 2009.
I doubt that Queens Park would become a precedent as he suggests.
Other larger Parks can cope with dual use. There are a range of issues which make Queens Park a special case.
Paul has been successful in collecting 333 signatures under the misleading banner of 'Do not ban Dogs from Queens Park.
In contrast, 1,901 people signed for a return to the balanced compromise which has served us well for 30 years.
I believe in doing so they were demonstrating the tolerance of diversity which Paul rightly claims as 'the spirit of Brighton and Hove'
paul@code
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3:58pm Wed 21 Jul 10
The Friends of Queens Park were supported in their petitioning by the Green Party , I don't know why. This gave them tremendous campaigning power. Additionally the Friends took out double page advertising in the local press threatening that childrens' activities might be moved away from the park. One such double page spread came out just before the fun dog show was held in Queens Park, the majority of attendees being children, who seemed to have escaped unscathed.
The resources of the Green Party campaigners, plus the backing of a Green Party councillor, the bias of the Argus and the effect of advertising has resulted in some good numbers for the petition to ban dogs from most of the park. This needs to be compared to the petition that I lead, which consisted of just me, who is in full time employment, gathering signatures when I can. Hence the difference in petition numbers.
It is part of our petition to have a recommendation to keep dogs on a lead in the vicinity of the lake. Not because we believe that dogs are a threat to wildlife, but to stop them swimming in it.
Paul Mendlesohn
Lead petitioner against the dog ban in Queens Park.
High Wire
says...
6:35pm Wed 21 Jul 10
.
Why do most people picnic, play, sunbathe and socialise in the non-dog area ? Why are most people commenting on this story in favour of a dog-free area ? Why did significantly more people vote for a reinstatement of the dog-free area ? Why do the geese graze in the morning in the dog-free area ? Why are the squirrels only in evidence in the dog-free area ? (These last 2 might give you some hints why the Greens are in favour of a dog-free area...)
.
Do you need the answer to these ? THE MAJORITY OF US DON'T WANT TO BE AROUND DOGS ALL THE TIME. Clearly the vast majority of people like the balance of the park the way it was and want it reinstated.
.
No-one is talking of complete bans - just a happy compromise that has worked well for decades.
lowebrighton
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7:35pm Wed 21 Jul 10
The Friends of Queens Park have not paid for any 'double page advertising in the local press'.
I can only assume that he is referring to the Argus article of July 19th which even handedly quotes his own views alongside those of Amanda Brace of Queens Park LAT and Geoffrey Theobald of the council (See above)
Paul launched a Facebook page for his campaign called 'Keep Queens Park Dog Friendly'. Of the people leaving comments, sadly not one backs his campaign.
Hanoverresident9
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7:37pm Wed 21 Jul 10
It makes sense that the children’s play area remains ‘dog-free’ and as Paul’s suggests dogs are kept on the lead in the nature reserve/lake areas. Most dog owners I have spoken to respect the needs of other park users and the safety of wildlife that resides within the park. Another point to be raised is that in the winter months you will very rarely see anyone using the park apart from dog owners and the South Lawns remain empty and unused which is a real shame. I hope that a compromise can be reached by the two opposing groups so that the park can be shared by all.
BDWarren
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10:31am Thu 22 Jul 10
Baldseagull
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2:30am Fri 23 Jul 10
I just wanted to point out that both the Canada Goose, and the Grey Squirrel are introduced species, that out compete native species, many would consider them to be pest species. Protection of them is not a good arguement to make.
Dog owners leaving their dogs turds in public parks should have their noses rubbed in it.
Byelaws being difficult to enforce is not a good reason to not have the byelaw.
BDWarren
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9:27am Fri 23 Jul 10
Baldseagull wrote:The Geese in the park are Greylag Geese which were once the only geese to breed in the UK and so became domesticated, leading to the now familiar white farm goose. While Grey Squirrels are a non native mammal and some would consider a pest. As with the Geese and Duck(s)they are good introduction for children and adults to wildlife in general.
I do not know the park, or have an opinion on whether dogs should have full access or not. I just wanted to point out that both the Canada Goose, and the Grey Squirrel are introduced species, that out compete native species, many would consider them to be pest species. Protection of them is not a good arguement to make. Dog owners leaving their dogs turds in public parks should have their noses rubbed in it. Byelaws being difficult to enforce is not a good reason to not have the byelaw.
lowebrighton
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9:34am Fri 23 Jul 10
there are no Canada Geese on our pond. We have domesticated geese whose distant ancestors were Grey Lags.
I entirely agree with the comment about squirrels. The feeding of them by certain members of our community with industrial levels of peanuts has meant a population boom. At densities now of 4-5 per hectare there is a real danger of an impact on nesting song birds.
Possible casualties this year are our breeding pair of Mistle Thrushes and the Song Thrush. Utterly tragic!
The task of educating people about biodiversity involves changing a culture. The wildlife policy of the Friends of Queens Park and Brighton's City Parks is to discourage the feeding of bread to Herring Gulls (which the Argus undermines in it's picture above.) With Squirrels it is to promote moderation and to point out the consequences for biodiversity.
It would be good to see the chair of our environment committee set an example in this regard rather than appearing to support those who would undermine the efforts of those who are working hard to educate and to conserve
paul@code
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2:13pm Fri 23 Jul 10
There is at least one lady who feeds the pigeons and seagulls every day and a man who puts out peanuts for they grey squirrels. Whilst they may be producing a slight change in the local wildlife balance, they are unlikely to respond to educational campaigns.
We don't ban them from their activities, but accept that people have differing views and needs, after all biodiversity includes people too.
Whether dogs walking in the park (as they do now) influence biodiversity, and whether this is a negative or positive influence is open to discussion.
If you exclude people's needs from the biodiversity discussion, then biodiversity risks becoming extremist.
Surely we need to balance our striving for sustainability with compassion and tolerance.
Gay Cavalier
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1:31am Sat 24 Jul 10
BDWarren
says...
11:43pm Sat 24 Jul 10
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BIRD HAVEN: A man feeds the ducks and other birds at Queen's Park
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Granny says...
2:48pm Mon 19 Jul 10