University of Sussex students occupy lecture theatre following protest on campus (From The Argus)

If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

MantaRay1 wrote:
If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

These students are ignoring the fact that only a small minority of them will be successful in obtaining a decent job, so they would be better off looking for a position now before unemployment worsens, which it will.

Well said Sparky.

Who is going to want to go to uni to study something such as nursing/social work to come out with over 30k of debt????

Well done to them! This is what we need, and lots of it - students standing up for the generation who are still at school, and for the rest of society. Education being available to people from every background benefits all of us, not just those who get degrees.

Tom - the money for the Fulton building was made available 3 to 4 years ago (long before anyone knew about the cuts). Most of the money was not out of the university budget. The students who use ALL the new facilities at the university seemed very pleased at the time that they were first announced!

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote: If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

Actually Manta Ray is right.
It's about time they stopped selling kids the lie that University education is for everyone. It isn't.
Most kids aren't bright enough, and shouldn't be wasting their time and their money doing it.
With regard to this demo:
It won't change a thing.

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote:
If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

Not a student of the concept of supply and demand then are you?
.
Part of the problem is the concept that a university degree is some kind of entitlement, another check box on the list of things to accomplish in life. Now that every student with a false sense of achievement decides to get a degree in underwater basket weaving, the universities are overflowing with sources of revenue.
.
I wonder if these same students will protest later in life when the price of food, clothing, petrol, etc. start to rise as the population density increases.

Twenty years ago it was established that 6 per cent of the population was the cream of the crop and grants were given to all 6 per cent attending university so even the poor, but clever kids could go.
Now more than 48 per cent of 18 years olds attend uni, unfortunately university education now includes a wide range of courses some of which are hobby/evening class standard educations.
This throwing together of all types of education into the 'HE/university' level of educaiton has ruined it for the 6 per cent who are clever.
This means no-one can have a grant as we have thousands of uni kids studying courses which really are evening classes/hobbies.
This ridiculous approach to higher education is unfair to young people and unfair to those clever kids from poor families who would have got a grant and no longer can.
These young people should be campaigning for grants for real education.

Ballroom Blitz wrote:

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote: If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

Actually Manta Ray is right.
It's about time they stopped selling kids the lie that University education is for everyone. It isn't.
Most kids aren't bright enough, and shouldn't be wasting their time and their money doing it.
With regard to this demo:
It won't change a thing.

Actually he AND you are wrong...If education becomes a preserve of the rich, then we'll have a lot of stupid wealthy people ending up running this country...come to think of it, it's already happened!...And as regards to this demo - it's just the start...remember how those poll tax protests didn't lead to a change...lol!

sparky_2004 wrote:

Ballroom Blitz wrote:

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote: If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

Actually Manta Ray is right.
It's about time they stopped selling kids the lie that University education is for everyone. It isn't.
Most kids aren't bright enough, and shouldn't be wasting their time and their money doing it.
With regard to this demo:
It won't change a thing.

Actually he AND you are wrong...If education becomes a preserve of the rich, then we'll have a lot of stupid wealthy people ending up running this country...come to think of it, it's already happened!...And as regards to this demo - it's just the start...remember how those poll tax protests didn't lead to a change...lol!

I've yet to meet a stupid rich person and I know a few.

I think some of the student protesters are protesting not just for themselves but for the sake of those in the future. It's stupid to say they should leave now and get a job because the job market is shrinking, we are all in this together. If you are poor, you are going to find things harder, if you are rich, you are going to have to guard your stuff, we will all be affected.

I think many of the students are doing it simply because it is fun. I went to UCL and was there in 1999 when fees went up to £3000. The finance building was occupied by a few hundred (mainly arts graduates) who sat around smoking / drinking and taking drugs while they made their big protest on how unfair it is to pay for a quality education.

Education is an investment that is worth paying for when you finally have a good job that pays a decent salary.

It will be the first time some of them have been in a lecture theatre.

What a contrast. Remembrance Day tributes galore yesterday . Today it's all about what the country should be doing for it's "students".

Tony Hove wrote:
I think many of the students are doing it simply because it is fun. I went to UCL and was there in 1999 when fees went up to £3000. The finance building was occupied by a few hundred (mainly arts graduates) who sat around smoking / drinking and taking drugs while they made their big protest on how unfair it is to pay for a quality education. Education is an investment that is worth paying for when you finally have a good job that pays a decent salary.

I went to uni, I paid my own fees, and I had a large student loan at the end.

I also paid it off over 6 yrs, there is nothing wrong with the concept, many other countries have similar systems.

Ours happens to be better, as you dont pay anything until you earn over £15k.

They only pay 1.5% interest too on the income based loan.

Unless people are prepared to pay in tax for everyone that age to go to uni, then its a fair enough system.

University is not a right, it should be earned.

Hooray for the students! Show your solidarity, oppose the stupidity and lies of the coalition. Come out on November 24th on the National Walkout. http://defendsussex.
wordpress.com/2010/1
1/15/statement-from-
the-occupation/

Well said Chipmunk77, I agree 100%, particularly your last line.

chipmunk77 wrote:

Tony Hove wrote:
I think many of the students are doing it simply because it is fun. I went to UCL and was there in 1999 when fees went up to £3000. The finance building was occupied by a few hundred (mainly arts graduates) who sat around smoking / drinking and taking drugs while they made their big protest on how unfair it is to pay for a quality education. Education is an investment that is worth paying for when you finally have a good job that pays a decent salary.

I went to uni, I paid my own fees, and I had a large student loan at the end.

I also paid it off over 6 yrs, there is nothing wrong with the concept, many other countries have similar systems.

Ours happens to be better, as you dont pay anything until you earn over £15k.

They only pay 1.5% interest too on the income based loan.

Unless people are prepared to pay in tax for everyone that age to go to uni, then its a fair enough system.

University is not a right, it should be earned.

Unfortunately you are out of date, and not only with the concept of education!...the threshold is 21k, but interest is RPI in the month of march (currently 4.4%), and will in future be based on several points above inflation...And graduates already pay for their education - since apparently they earn more and therefore pay more tax!

Thank you to TheInsider for injecting some common sense into this story - the dumbing down of higher education.

You can't make all people equal intellectually as we are just not all made the same way.

Tony Davenport

sparky_2004 wrote:

chipmunk77 wrote:

Tony Hove wrote: I think many of the students are doing it simply because it is fun. I went to UCL and was there in 1999 when fees went up to £3000. The finance building was occupied by a few hundred (mainly arts graduates) who sat around smoking / drinking and taking drugs while they made their big protest on how unfair it is to pay for a quality education. Education is an investment that is worth paying for when you finally have a good job that pays a decent salary.

I went to uni, I paid my own fees, and I had a large student loan at the end. I also paid it off over 6 yrs, there is nothing wrong with the concept, many other countries have similar systems. Ours happens to be better, as you dont pay anything until you earn over £15k. They only pay 1.5% interest too on the income based loan. Unless people are prepared to pay in tax for everyone that age to go to uni, then its a fair enough system. University is not a right, it should be earned.

Unfortunately you are out of date, and not only with the concept of education!...the threshold is 21k, but interest is RPI in the month of march (currently 4.4%), and will in future be based on several points above inflation...And graduates already pay for their education - since apparently they earn more and therefore pay more tax!

Fair enough re interest, I misread.

"The rate will be the lower of the Retail Price Index (RPI) in March 2010, or 1% above the highest base rate of a nominated group of banks".

I'm glad you can see into the future to set their rates, do you have this wks lottery numbers too?


Otherwise, the student loans co. info is wrong, as they say:

"Our customers monthly repayments are unaffected by the rate of interest. Customers with income based loans repay 9% of their earnings that are above the income threshold of £15,000"

15k not 21k.

And I hardly think I'm out of date with the concept of education, I was recently in it thanks, Oxford no less, and almost a first in a proper degree subject. So ya boo and Ha!

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote:
If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

What an ignoble little troll you are.

Tony Davenport, I am disgusted by the higher education system in the UK. Many courses which were provided free to 16 to 18 years olds (and mature students returning to college) in England and Wales at technical colleges, academies, further education institutes, were hijacked by universities and turned into three-year degree courses which had to be paid for. Now students will pay up to £9,000 p/a for these courses.
These courses never needed to be HE courses and they didn't have to be paid for.
We now have thousands of people coming out of unis at 24-years-old without any life/job experience with degrees which do not translate into employment opportunities and with massive debt.
The poor delivery of education in the UK in more than a decade is why the UK has the highest level of graduate unemployment in 17 years and the highest level of youth (under 25) unemployment in Europe.

TheInsider wrote:
Twenty years ago it was established that 6 per cent of the population was the cream of the crop and grants were given to all 6 per cent attending university so even the poor, but clever kids could go.
Now more than 48 per cent of 18 years olds attend uni, unfortunately university education now includes a wide range of courses some of which are hobby/evening class standard educations.
This throwing together of all types of education into the 'HE/university' level of educaiton has ruined it for the 6 per cent who are clever.
This means no-one can have a grant as we have thousands of uni kids studying courses which really are evening classes/hobbies.
This ridiculous approach to higher education is unfair to young people and unfair to those clever kids from poor families who would have got a grant and no longer can.
These young people should be campaigning for grants for real education.

Absolutely right. In fact the standards began to fall during the mid 1980's when Thatcher scrapped the old O-Levels. These and A-Levels were truly tough and challenging exams and only the very very brightest ever got A grades. Those went on to University and rightly so.

What do we have today? We have the same percentage, around 6% like you mentioned, who go on to do post graduate courses and eventually become lecturers and researchers or go into industry.

There are so many higher education students today that drop out because they simply aren't capable of finishing their courses but the government and Universities keeps these figures quiet.

We have a society today where everyone feels they have a right to be near the top even if they just don't have what it takes. Some people just don't know their limitations, just like Gordon Brown who found out in the end!

"The 22-year-old added that the occupation had been a spontaneous decision and that people had been inspired by the protest in London last week."

Inspired by the violence and criminal damage no doubt!

I have sympathy with the truly brightest and best students who want to get on and get the support they deserve. Other generations got free higher education so why not them.

I don't have sympathy with the wasters who see University as a holiday camp and who spend most of their time in the campus bar or squatting inside University lecture theatres rather than studying in the Library!

The Uni brats should stop behaving like three year olds and start behaving like adults.

Who cares if your fees are increasing?

If you don't like it go out and get a proper job in McDonalds.

chroma wrote:

sparky_2004 wrote:

Ballroom Blitz wrote:

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote: If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

Actually Manta Ray is right.
It's about time they stopped selling kids the lie that University education is for everyone. It isn't.
Most kids aren't bright enough, and shouldn't be wasting their time and their money doing it.
With regard to this demo:
It won't change a thing.

Actually he AND you are wrong...If education becomes a preserve of the rich, then we'll have a lot of stupid wealthy people ending up running this country...come to think of it, it's already happened!...And as regards to this demo - it's just the start...remember how those poll tax protests didn't lead to a change...lol!

I've yet to meet a stupid rich person and I know a few.

I used to go hunt sabbing when I was younger and I met loads of stupid rich people.They were the ones on the horses :)

And well down to the students,lets hope others follow your example.

Gosh, some of you on here hold repulsive views. The very concept of University is not to get a better job/higher income, it is to LEARN.

The Tories are selling this as 'don't worry you won't have to pay it back until you earn this much (30k ish)' - do you realise how much debt this would be? I mean en masse? There is no saving there, at least not in the short-term. £9k a year fees + living expenses - students are looking at being £60k in debt on graduation + interest. Say 90% of students take out a loan - how much money total have the government then loaned? How many people do you know that could afford £60k over a 3 year period? Very, very, few. I think some of you need a University education because you are easily sold spin.

Notice Teresa May on Question Time demonising the students for breaking a few windows? She was complicit in what the 'Countryside Alliance' did - ie breaking into Parliament, throwing powder bombs, rioting, clashing with the Police etc etc - just over the right to hunt an animal with a pack of dogs (it's completely legal to shoot foxes etc btw, so the only issue they were bemoaning was the ripping it apart with dogs). How anyone has the gaul to criticise the students for breaking some glass, with the bleak future they face, yet support that is beyond me.

Wake up. Can't you see what they are doing?

chroma wrote:

sparky_2004 wrote:

Ballroom Blitz wrote:

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote: If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

Actually Manta Ray is right. It's about time they stopped selling kids the lie that University education is for everyone. It isn't. Most kids aren't bright enough, and shouldn't be wasting their time and their money doing it. With regard to this demo: It won't change a thing.

Actually he AND you are wrong...If education becomes a preserve of the rich, then we'll have a lot of stupid wealthy people ending up running this country...come to think of it, it's already happened!...And as regards to this demo - it's just the start...remember how those poll tax protests didn't lead to a change...lol!

I've yet to meet a stupid rich person and I know a few.

Really? I've met plenty but they are generally not the self made rich but those who just inherited money

Bloody students!- they shouldn't be doing that!
They should be occupying the Admin Block wherte they might cause some proper disruption. In my day ...(etc,etc, don't know they're born and so on)

the problem as i see it is too many students studying subjects which will never offered employment i know many people who studied photography at university art history, media studies, Football technology etc etc etc many of these people do not have to worry about the student loans as they will have a hard time earning 15000 a year bring back entrance exams which weed out the dregs and saps and only allow students with a degree of intelligence instead of this lifestyle choice of student bars and gap years it dont work and never will

If students think they will honestly get a decent career out of their time at uni then go for it, but if you're going for the experience of 1st year p!SS ups etc then it's prob a good thing prices are going up. it will make them think twice about how amazing it is they get students loans that they can sp~nk up the wall. If people are serious enough about their career path then cost won't matter.

Always working wrote:
If students think they will honestly get a decent career out of their time at uni then go for it, but if you're going for the experience of 1st year p!SS ups etc then it's prob a good thing prices are going up. it will make them think twice about how amazing it is they get students loans that they can sp~nk up the wall. If people are serious enough about their career path then cost won't matter.

What sort of sound-bite tripe is 'if people are serious enought about their career parth then cost won't matter'? Why don't we charge £73 billion per student then? The serious one's will make it. What about comedians can they be considered serious? Most if not all the comedians you love - Python, Blackadder, Mitchell & Webb etc came out of Footlights - they didn't study comedy, they met at University studying wholly unrelated subjects (Dudley more had an Organ scholarship). Many bands i.e. Coldplay and countless others met and formed at University, some of them probably studied 'useless degrees'....as far as I'm aware none of them studied music. As for art history, media studies and football technology being useless degrees with no money in them, I'll remind you that a Chinese vase sold for £43 million last week, you're posting your post on a media platform that you've consumed and someone with a media degree has authored and we all know how much money is in football. I suggest you look beyond your circle of friends before you comment on these matters.

Corrections:
*enough, *path, *Moore

Metadadaist wrote:

Always working wrote:
If students think they will honestly get a decent career out of their time at uni then go for it, but if you're going for the experience of 1st year p!SS ups etc then it's prob a good thing prices are going up. it will make them think twice about how amazing it is they get students loans that they can sp~nk up the wall. If people are serious enough about their career path then cost won't matter.

What sort of sound-bite tripe is 'if people are serious enought about their career parth then cost won't matter'? Why don't we charge £73 billion per student then? The serious one's will make it. What about comedians can they be considered serious? Most if not all the comedians you love - Python, Blackadder, Mitchell & Webb etc came out of Footlights - they didn't study comedy, they met at University studying wholly unrelated subjects (Dudley more had an Organ scholarship). Many bands i.e. Coldplay and countless others met and formed at University, some of them probably studied 'useless degrees'....as far as I'm aware none of them studied music. As for art history, media studies and football technology being useless degrees with no money in them, I'll remind you that a Chinese vase sold for £43 million last week, you're posting your post on a media platform that you've consumed and someone with a media degree has authored and we all know how much money is in football. I suggest you look beyond your circle of friends before you comment on these matters.

I'm also sure the top footballers in the world never studied it as its a talent you have or you dont same with photography you can take good pictures or not and i know a very sucessful antiques dealer who never studied it at university all i am saying is too many people are chasing few jobs as for the argus it shows how useless these degrees are as its not excatly jouralism more of a merging point for twitter feeds and recycling from other publications the universitys should bring back real subjects with real propects instead of classes of 20/30 students all chasing a carear in a very closed industry i'm not saying people do not gain jobs from these courses just not enough as a employer in the city i would look at a interviewee with a art history degree as a dreamer and would rather someone with common sense and no degree over someone with unrealistic ambtions just like the many people for study drama and end up working in minimum wage jobs as who cares if you know shakespeare and the difference between up stage and down stage just get qualified for something usable

There is nothing wrong with studying film, media, business studies and other hobbs courses, but don't expect to pay out good money for a course in the hope it will get you a break into these sought-after careers or a return on your money. The return for money is extremely poor. Most graduates go into bog standard jobs in shops, trades, hotels etc. Then they find that in their 30s, they get married, start a family and they are still earning low salaries and cannot buy a house and still have a student debt. Often both husband and wife have joint debt. Until two years ago you could add it to your mortgage but that has now stopped.
It is a fact that the top jobs still go to those who have gone to the top universities and metadadaist inadvertently points this out himself, even with regards to those in the creative industries.
Yes, the Pythons and many of the UKs most famous actors, musicians, artists etc all went to top universities to study other subjects. They were lucky to be able to establish themselves in their chosen (less academic fields). This is party because many of them also have very good contacts to give them these breaks.
Those who are less academic and attend colleges studying creative and hobby courses have little chance against people with brains and talent.
They end up auditioning on Britain's Got Talent, the X Factor or just working in a shop recalling that they had a good time at uni, but the degree wasn't really worth the money with regards to job prospects.
People need to get real. Yes the State could support students and pay for them, but only the six per cent who will provide a real return for the investment.
No-one is going to throw money at bog standard kids who could just leave school and go into bog standard jobs.

raul-duke wrote:

Metadadaist wrote:

Always working wrote:
If students think they will honestly get a decent career out of their time at uni then go for it, but if you're going for the experience of 1st year p!SS ups etc then it's prob a good thing prices are going up. it will make them think twice about how amazing it is they get students loans that they can sp~nk up the wall. If people are serious enough about their career path then cost won't matter.

What sort of sound-bite tripe is 'if people are serious enought about their career parth then cost won't matter'? Why don't we charge £73 billion per student then? The serious one's will make it. What about comedians can they be considered serious? Most if not all the comedians you love - Python, Blackadder, Mitchell & Webb etc came out of Footlights - they didn't study comedy, they met at University studying wholly unrelated subjects (Dudley more had an Organ scholarship). Many bands i.e. Coldplay and countless others met and formed at University, some of them probably studied 'useless degrees'....as far as I'm aware none of them studied music. As for art history, media studies and football technology being useless degrees with no money in them, I'll remind you that a Chinese vase sold for £43 million last week, you're posting your post on a media platform that you've consumed and someone with a media degree has authored and we all know how much money is in football. I suggest you look beyond your circle of friends before you comment on these matters.

I'm also sure the top footballers in the world never studied it as its a talent you have or you dont same with photography you can take good pictures or not and i know a very sucessful antiques dealer who never studied it at university all i am saying is too many people are chasing few jobs as for the argus it shows how useless these degrees are as its not excatly jouralism more of a merging point for twitter feeds and recycling from other publications the universitys should bring back real subjects with real propects instead of classes of 20/30 students all chasing a carear in a very closed industry i'm not saying people do not gain jobs from these courses just not enough as a employer in the city i would look at a interviewee with a art history degree as a dreamer and would rather someone with common sense and no degree over someone with unrealistic ambtions just like the many people for study drama and end up working in minimum wage jobs as who cares if you know shakespeare and the difference between up stage and down stage just get qualified for something usable

Footballers do study football - they start on youth training schemes and go through the process, mostly funded by the clubs. I can name Ian Wright who didn't go through this process, but very few others. I know hundreds of useless antiques dealers who are clueless about their products having no education in their field, and their customers are equally clueless. Hence why there are thousands of people ripped off daily paying over the odds for some piece of tat. As for the Argus - it's not really their fault; they are owned by a massive company in USA who couldn't give a stuff about what happens locally - this is a problem with the media in general - monopolies of Newspapers shouldn't be allowed on these scales.

I have an art history degree, and it is obvious I have more common sense than you, so I'm glad you're not an employer in the city, or are you? If you are then you're employing the wrong people based on a pre-determined faux prejudice.

The Mayor of London has a degree in Classics. Countless politicians have History degrees - George Osborne has one in modern history. These 'useless' degrees have transferable elements and skills. I'm certain there's no money in archaeology, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people enjoy thier weekly dose of Time Team. Why? Because our whole civilisation and society is based on the past. Education and economics i.e. financial benefits are not one and the same. Stop viewing them in that context, otherwise we may as well bring back Victorian workhouses.

true-brightonian wrote:
Hooray for the students! Show your solidarity, oppose the stupidity and lies of the coalition. Come out on November 24th on the National Walkout. http://defendsussex. wordpress.com/2010/1 1/15/statement-from- the-occupation/

Sorry, can't resist it...nothing against students at all but.......

How will we tell there's been a walk out?

Metadadaist...every person you have mentioned with a fluffy degree who has gone on to be successful at the very top (Osborn, the Pythons, Boris J) went to Eton/top unis etc so got where they are by the fact they have the right contacts in the old boy's network.
It is utter nonsense that they have transferable skills.
They went to bloody Eton or Oxbridge and that is what counted on their CV.
So did the Pythons. Google them all and see their connections.
Tony Blair's kids have all been given top jobs too. Do you really think that Euan Blair's CV arrived with 5,000 others and he got the job?
The people you talk about could have studied their own navels and they still would have got a leg up to the top.
The average kid from Hanover, who goes to Varndean and then gets a degree in the subjects you mention at the uni of bog-standardness cannot even get a job in a supermarket right now let alone run the country.
The UK has the highest number of unemployed graduates for 17 years because they are studying the wrong courses.

TheInsider wrote:
Metadadaist...every person you have mentioned with a fluffy degree who has gone on to be successful at the very top (Osborn, the Pythons, Boris J) went to Eton/top unis etc so got where they are by the fact they have the right contacts in the old boy's network.
It is utter nonsense that they have transferable skills.
They went to bloody Eton or Oxbridge and that is what counted on their CV.
So did the Pythons. Google them all and see their connections.
Tony Blair's kids have all been given top jobs too. Do you really think that Euan Blair's CV arrived with 5,000 others and he got the job?
The people you talk about could have studied their own navels and they still would have got a leg up to the top.
The average kid from Hanover, who goes to Varndean and then gets a degree in the subjects you mention at the uni of bog-standardness cannot even get a job in a supermarket right now let alone run the country.
The UK has the highest number of unemployed graduates for 17 years because they are studying the wrong courses.

I absolutely agree - but that's essentially not the fault of the student, or the university. Upping the fees only makes what you describe worse. There are plenty of people from Sussex & Brighton Uni's with fluffy degrees in top jobs, obv not as many as Oxbridge. Mortimer of Reeves & Mortimer is a Sussex grad, tons of Sussex grads work at the BBC. There are also Oxbridge grads that work in 'crap' jobs.

The average kid from Hanover that you describe is doing quite well in London, he is a friend of mine. I'm not doing badly and I'm from a council estate in Portslade. Depends on the person really, students aren't a single entity.

It's not because they are studying the wrong courses, many jobs require you to intern - poor people can't afford that route into employment.

I haven't for one minute advocated that Uni should be free - it shouldn't. But it shouldn't cost £9k a year. I know that much. On another level, do you realise how much the students in our City (whether you love or loathe them) contribute to the local economy?

See the bigger picture - rising the fees puts the country in bigger debt due to massive loans to students that won't be paid back. It creates an elitist system where only the richest can be educated and turns University education into essentially apprenticeships with no regard to the actual learning or experience. What a brilliant way forward.

Metadadaist, bring back grants for all of those in the top six per cent.
That is what I got as did my other brothers. We grew up on a council estate and would never have been able to go. You would have got a full grant too. Full grants gives great opportunities to those from all backgrounds.
However, even the top six per cent only got 'discretionary' grants if they chose to do arts.
However, once Labour opened the doors for even GCSE standard kids to attend uni, it devalued higher education and lead to this situation where everyone pays.
There is an answer and that is to fully grant the top six per cent of kids and then let those who are doing these hobby courses pay their own way.
However, people are scared to admit that some uni kids are actually very low standard and there is still a clear definition between a kid who studies media at brighton and a kid who studies electronic engineering at Surrey.
You have to be realistic. We have to fund the top academics and let the rest find their own way. If they are silly enough to hand over £27,000 for a degree in rock guitar then so be it.

TheInsider wrote:
Twenty years ago it was established that 6 per cent of the population was the cream of the crop and grants were given to all 6 per cent attending university so even the poor, but clever kids could go. Now more than 48 per cent of 18 years olds attend uni, unfortunately university education now includes a wide range of courses some of which are hobby/evening class standard educations. This throwing together of all types of education into the 'HE/university' level of educaiton has ruined it for the 6 per cent who are clever. This means no-one can have a grant as we have thousands of uni kids studying courses which really are evening classes/hobbies. This ridiculous approach to higher education is unfair to young people and unfair to those clever kids from poor families who would have got a grant and no longer can. These young people should be campaigning for grants for real education.

This has been the best post so far. It is worth seeing it repeated here.
It is exactly the point that the current approach to higher education - at high personal cost for far too many indifferent students - is particularly hard on those clever kids from poor families who would have got a good grant 30 years ago, but no longer can.

Even the Chinese Government is highly selective about which pupils it spends further money on to put through higher education - and that if they do, they study mainly science, technology and other subjects that provide knowledge that can not be otherwise aquired on a hobby basis.

MantaRay1 wrote:
If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Here, here

TheInsider wrote:
Metadadaist...every person you have mentioned with a fluffy degree who has gone on to be successful at the very top (Osborn, the Pythons, Boris J) went to Eton/top unis etc so got where they are by the fact they have the right contacts in the old boy's network.
It is utter nonsense that they have transferable skills.
They went to bloody Eton or Oxbridge and that is what counted on their CV.
So did the Pythons. Google them all and see their connections.
Tony Blair's kids have all been given top jobs too. Do you really think that Euan Blair's CV arrived with 5,000 others and he got the job?
The people you talk about could have studied their own navels and they still would have got a leg up to the top.
The average kid from Hanover, who goes to Varndean and then gets a degree in the subjects you mention at the uni of bog-standardness cannot even get a job in a supermarket right now let alone run the country.
The UK has the highest number of unemployed graduates for 17 years because they are studying the wrong courses.

superb post its not what you know but who you know

General formulae for comments boards related to stories on University cuts.

i) 'Why don't they get a job'?

ii) 'Their degrees are worth nothing - they can't even get a job in a '

iii) 'I didn't go to university, I went to the university of life, and am very successful as a result'

iv) 'I'm an employer of a really small business, although I pretend I'm really successful by using the anonymity of the internet, and I don't even feed graduates CV's to my '

(see: TheInsider)

*sighs

Are the team running the Argus adopting an "if we don't report this it's just going to disappear" angle ? Nothing on line, nothing for months leading up to this....This should have been discussed by Brighton. It's disgusting that News quest has not allowed Brighton to discuss the future of it's paper. After all the paper belonged and still does belong to the people of Brighton. Keep up the good work.

sparky_2004 wrote:

Ballroom Blitz wrote:

sparky_2004 wrote:

MantaRay1 wrote: If you can't afford to go to uni then don't. Simple.

Education only for the rich then?...Shows how stupid you are!

Actually Manta Ray is right. It's about time they stopped selling kids the lie that University education is for everyone. It isn't. Most kids aren't bright enough, and shouldn't be wasting their time and their money doing it. With regard to this demo: It won't change a thing.

Actually he AND you are wrong...If education becomes a preserve of the rich, then we'll have a lot of stupid wealthy people ending up running this country...come to think of it, it's already happened!...And as regards to this demo - it's just the start...remember how those poll tax protests didn't lead to a change...lol!

When only the top 6% attended university, there was still room for able students from poorer backgrounds - because university education was FREE.
You got there by hard work and determination - and if you were good enough you got a grant.
Now anyone can go to university.
If anyone can do it - it's utterly pointless, and no indication of talent or ability.
The Insider is right when he says:
"This ridiculous approach to higher education..... is unfair to those clever kids from poor families who would have got a grant and now no longer can."
It amazes me that people have a problem seeing that. It actually discriminates AGAINST the very people it should be encouraging.
Kids with rich parents can always afford to send their kids to uni, regardless of any ability, and without the students themselves being in debt. The parents of kids from poor backgrounds simply can't afford to help their children out.
So where's the fairness in that?
University education is NOW becoming solely the preserve of the rich, which is exactly what you are rightly arguing against happening.

I just want to stand up for students that maybe didn't do very well in their A levels but then went to obtain high marks in their chosen degree. Just because you don't get good marks in your A levels does not mean you are not good enough to go to university. How about the fact that 'drama' at school is nothing like a Theatre Arts degree at university. I obtained 4 c grades at A level but a 2:1 degree at university because the subject was so different ... oh and because I didn't have a teacher who disliked me therefore marked me low. Also the tuition fee debate is not the worst part of the whole university fee changes, how about the fact that maintenance allowance will no longer be awarded to children from poorer backgrounds, without that money I would not have been able to go to university and neither would many of my friends all who have obtained high grades in their degree subject.

KellyBeans wrote:
I just want to stand up for students that maybe didn't do very well in their A levels but then went to obtain high marks in their chosen degree. Just because you don't get good marks in your A levels does not mean you are not good enough to go to university. How about the fact that 'drama' at school is nothing like a Theatre Arts degree at university. I obtained 4 c grades at A level but a 2:1 degree at university because the subject was so different ... oh and because I didn't have a teacher who disliked me therefore marked me low. Also the tuition fee debate is not the worst part of the whole university fee changes, how about the fact that maintenance allowance will no longer be awarded to children from poorer backgrounds, without that money I would not have been able to go to university and neither would many of my friends all who have obtained high grades in their degree subject.

How about the fact that doing a drama degree is exactly the 'soft' waste-of-time subject that is exactly what I was talking about.
And before you get on your high horse I have worked in the theatre for 10 years as a sound designer. Guess what? NO DEGREE. NOT NECESSARY. Just ability - that's all.
It's exactly what The Insider was talking about. You don't need a degree in drama. What a waste of time and money.
Do you have job as a direct result of this hard won degree?

Ok...well your entitled to your opinion but how come every single job I have applied for since leaving university has required a degree in a Theatre related subject? And no I do not have a job yet although I have not been out of university for very long so i'm not surpised especially seeing as so many people are also applying for the same jobs I am but I have been involved in many productions and helped out at various venues none of which I would have gotten without the experience I gained on my very practical and useful degree which I think your passing off as a "soft waste of time" without knowing anything about what kind of degree it was. But as I said your entitled to your opinion. Oh and by the way my friend who also studied a "soft waste of time" subject at university immediately got a very good and well paid job that without her degree she couldn't have.

Drama really you need to wake up i can see you future and no thank you i dont want fries with that in the industry you studied its not a big deal what you know but who you know simple as that you could have the highest degree ever all the raw talent in the world but with out the connections your dead in the water and as for the tutors teaching drama they are only doing so as they failed so badly themselves

Yes I do actually know that but i'm just saying alot of jobs you need a degree to even get an interview. My degree wasn't 'drama' it was theatre practice and I learnt practical skills like how to work sound/lighting boards,rig lights and speakers, stage management, theatre admin, set construction and design amongst other skills. I know I'm more talented and driven than to ever end up in a fast food restaurant thank you. Also I just want to point out that this is the first time i've written on these boards and I have to say i'm pretty disgusted with the way people treat each other. This began as a simple comment from me with no anger, anyway i'm happy to say this is the end of this conversation as far as i'm concerned.

Tony Hove wrote:
I think many of the students are doing it simply because it is fun. I went to UCL and was there in 1999 when fees went up to £3000. The finance building was occupied by a few hundred (mainly arts graduates) who sat around smoking / drinking and taking drugs while they made their big protest on how unfair it is to pay for a quality education.

Education is an investment that is worth paying for when you finally have a good job that pays a decent salary.

I'm inclined to agree, seems only a few months since the Argus reported similar events at Sussex Uni......... get a job! Loafers.

Plus ca change! Reminds me of my college days when the soi-disant radicals would communally dodge soap with their sit-ins and protests. Of course, as has been mentioned above, the only ones who joined in were those reading the fluff courses like the PPE - because they weren't smart enough to pass their A-level Greek. And look where they ended up! Front bench of the Labour party earning less than my chauffeur's manservant. What a life! Bring back the cane and make Greek mandatory, that'll be the end of NuLab and these troublemaking students.