Should All Internships Be Paid? - An interview with local student, Rachel Fordham, fashion intern with bee in her bonnet

After working for a total of eight months in various unpaid internships, Rachel has decided to launch a campaign to bring the minimum wage to all unpaid internships across the UK.

A topic close to her heart, Rachel brought this up with David Milliband on his recent visit to Brighton, and has started a facebook group to publicise the cause.

Jian: So what was the last straw that made you start this campaign?

Rachel: Well, my last internship was at House of Fraser where I was working in fashion buying for a month.

I was working hard and staying late each night, without pay and just felt totally unappreciated and overworked.

The reason I finally decided to voice my frustration about being unpaid was because this was the first internship where I was being spoken to a derogatory and patronising manner.

I don’t mind working hard and staying late. I actually like doing that. It’s not the point though, you just need to pay people for doing work.

Jian: So you weren’t just shadowing a current employee or making tea?


Rachel: No. I was actually working. Doing a job. One of the jobs I carried out was processing expenses and one such expense, for example, was a current employee being reimbursed for a hot chocolate in Paris.

Whereas the company wouldn’t even pay for my travel, which is a joke. They refused to pay for a taxi when they wanted me to hand-deliver fourteen handbags. I did it on foot.

They also won’t even give you lunch, despite you working for them for free.

Jian: Where else have you worked?

Rachel: I did another internship at Harvey Nichols who were much nicer and encouraging and they were even apologetic about not being able to pay me. So they knew, ethically-speaking, that they should be paying me.

I learnt a lot about an industry that I’m really interested in and this is why I think this cause is worth fighting for, because these experiences can be extremely invaluable and I think everyone should be entitled to them.

In total I’ve done eight months of unpaid internships now, so my CV looks good, and I’ve learned a lot, but it’s been really hard work and only made possible because I’m lucky that my parents lives in London so I can stay with them rent-free and they can pay for my travel.

But not everyone’s that lucky. Why can’t companies just pay interns a minimum wage?

Jian: What if a company has hired to its absolute financial limit and literally cannot afford to hire another paid employee, but someone is just desperate for work experience and an insight into the business?

Do you expect that company to pay the person even if it has told them up front that it has no space and can’t pay, but is willing to allow them the insight and experience if they really wish?

Rachel: Well, that’s different. For a short, finite period I agree with that. But after four or, say, eight weeks maximum, you should get paid.

A lot of people go into an internship for the experience, but then they get exploited. Most people can’t afford it, either. How do you expect them to live? Like I said, I’ve only been able to do these internships because my family live in London.

There needs to be fairer access, and the access would be created if the internships were paid because then more young people would be able to pay rent while they’re interning.

Jian: Isn’t another purpose of the internship to test if the intern is genuinely keen enough to stay with the company? Don’t internships often lead to actual paid jobs within the company?

Rachel: Well, yes, an internship is a great opportunity if you land in the right company with the right people and it leads to a job there.

But that’s rare, and they often use it as a threat hanging over you, like “If you work hard and don’t complain then maybe you’re in with a chance”, which I think is unfair.

I’ve also read a survey on Interns Anonymous, a website that basically lists intern horror stories, revealing that 50% of internships last one to three months and 80% do not lead to further employment. It’s ridiculous.

Jian: Aren’t there some industries though, such as banking, where interns do in fact get paid?

Rachel: Well, that’s banking. Which is not the norm. Most girls I know have done work in fashion and never been paid, like me and my flatmate, for example. And another friend of mine who studies fashion at Manchester Uni, was given a year’s internship at a fashion house in London as the sandwich year of her course but couldn’t take it up as it was unpaid.

Her family live in Yorkshire and she’s at Manchester, but the uni sends her to London and expects her to work there for a year unpaid. It’s ridiculous. How would she afford rent?

Jian: How did she?

Rachel: She didn’t. She couldn’t take the placement and had to settle for a more local opportunity. Honestly, it’s just become a norm for girls studying fashion to have to spend an entire academic year unpaid.

The national minimum wage, by law, is £5.93 for adult employees, but companies get away with not paying it by saying that legally these interns aren’t employees. But we’re doing exactly the same job as employees. So why the loophole? It shouldn't exist.

Jian: Who do you think are the main culprits?

Rachel: M & S don’t pay interns. House of Fraser don’t pay. Cath Kidston don’t pay. Stella McCartney doesn’t pay, amongst tonnes of other fashion houses, PR companies, etcetera.

As I understand it, an internship is sort of an extended glimpse into an industry, to help create a career, with the idea being that the internship inspires an employee to want to gain full-time employment there.

But where is the cut-off line between the internship and the career? The government should be stepping in to create a finite period.

Jian: I heard you brought this up with David Milliband?

Rachel: Yeah, he came to speak at Sussex so I attended the talk in order to ask him about it. I thought because he’s Labour he’ll definitely back this cause, and I knew it was being discussed in Parliament so it was kind of a hot topic.

He was saying that the current government has let us down by raising tuition fees, and that potential students will be forced to skip uni and go straight into the job market.

So I asked, “If you’re saying less people are going to uni because of the raised tuition fees, where are they going to find work and earn a living if most internships are unpaid? I thought slavery was abolished in the 1800s.”

That last bit got a laugh, but I was making a serious point.

Jian: Do you think internships are comparable to slavery?

Rachel: Well, ok, I was using dramatic language to help illustrate the point, but the Head of Oxford University Careers Service has actually stated that unpaid internships are nothing short of exploitation which can mount to virtual slavery.

So it’s a serious problem. Businesses are cashing in on students’ desperation to secure positions. A lot of this has been raised and discussed in the Facebook group I created.

Jian: What was Milliband’s response?

Rachel: He wasn’t sympathetic at all actually, which surprised me.

His immediate response was “No one marches you in there”. Then he added something like “And sometimes I think interns are more trouble than they’re worth, especially if they’re only there for a week.”

Jian: I suppose if you have to take time to train and explain things to someone who only stays for a week, then maybe he’s right?

Rachel: Yes, if they are genuinely there for only a week, but then that person is really only there for ‘work experience’ and not an internship.

But I’m talking about the people who go to an office day in day out for months on end, doing a job, and should therefore get paid for it. I’m not talking about someone who makes tea for a week.

Fundamentally, I’m saying if you’re working you should get paid. No matter what your level of experience. And surely that’s the whole point of the minimum wage anyway.

There are several levels of minimum wage: £3.64 for 16-17 year olds; £4.92 for 18-20 year olds, and £5.93 for adults of 21 and over.

Also, there’s a starting apprentice rate of £2.50. So if there are all these minimum wages laid out by the government itself, then why aren’t interns being paid? It doesn’t make sense.

Jian: What do you expect the government to do about it?

Rachel: Well, at the moment I’m really not sure. I think it’s pretty hypocritical that Nick Clegg recently announced plans to encourage paid internship schemes just days after Vince Cable axed a paid internship scheme.

And it’s been widely reported that the Tories auctioned off internships at top city banks and hedge funds for thousands of pounds to raise money for their party at their annual gala ball.

What else... The Guardian also recently reported that interns are basically doing the work of a paid employee, and that the HMRC isn’t doing enough to stop illegal unpaid internships. I could go on.

Jian: So what are you hoping to achieve by starting the facebook group?

Rachel: I’m hoping to get some support behind the idea, to help the cause gain momentum.

Through founding the facebook group I’ve now been contacted by the founder of Intern Aware, Gus Baker, who said “Great job on the group”.

Hopefully with his help and the support of my peers we can take this further.

Jian: Are you hoping to influence actual government policy?

Rachel: Yes. If we can get enough people behind the idea, we could get a petition going and get lobbying. All I want to do is achieve fair access to and fair pay from the internship system. That’s it.

--- To find out more, please join the facebook group ‘If We Have A Minimum Wage, Why Are Interns NOT Being Paid?’ or email Winterns@groups.facebook.com ---