Brighton councillor sorry for 'cult' tweet (From The Argus)
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Brighton councillor sorry for 'cult' tweet
3:30pm Friday 10th February 2012 in News By Rebecca Evans
A Brighton and Hove city councillor has apologised after likening a proposed Christian free school to a “cult”.
Ben Duncan has criticised the King’s School secondary proposal as a backlash to the plan grows.
Parents working with Russell Education Trust (RET) are planning to submit an application to the Department for Education to open the school for 11 to 16-year-olds in Hove in 2013.
Under free school rules up to half the places could be set aside for Christian children.
An anti-King’s School website has now been set up by parents concerned about the effects of “segregation” in the city.
Coun Duncan, council cabinet member for communities, equalities and public protection, commented on Twitter: “Campaign against latest Tory plan for cult followers to wrest control of education from state in Hove.”
Two Argus polls have shown opinions are split on free and religious schools.
Almost 55% said they would send their child to a free school.
And 58% of respondents said a Church of England school is needed in the city.
The Argus has been contacted by parents who claim the group behind the plans have not consulted properly with the local community.
RET said the number of parents who have expressed an interest in places from 2013 has exceeded the planned admission number.
Coun Duncan said yesterday (February 10): “I had been speaking with some members of the church who had been blaming poverty and deprivation upon godlessness rather than joblessness, and proposed that the answer lay in more churches, not more jobs, which made me angry.
“In hindsight I realise I shouldn’t have used that language, which I accept may have been offensive to other members of the church.”
RET spokesman Richard Elms said: “The proposed King’s School will extend parental choice by offering additional church school places in an area in which there is only one other (very popular) church secondary school.”
Comments(59)
Ian Edmond
says...
4:43pm Fri 10 Feb 12
How can children be expected to have made an informed choice of religion? What this really means is "Children of Christian parents," or more likely, "Children of parents who claim to be Christian because they can buck the normal admissions system."
But more importantly, what an awful idea. We should be encouraging all of our children to integrate, not separate, especially on such silly grounds.
thommy
says...
4:48pm Fri 10 Feb 12
deve
says...
4:54pm Fri 10 Feb 12
The Heretic
says...
5:30pm Fri 10 Feb 12
As importantly as any of the many facets of education is teaching children that life in a civilised society is about empathy for, and interaction with people of differing backgrounds / faiths / views than those they have grown up with. Segregation within the education system removes this vital component. It attempts to be elitist, whether or not it admits this, and inevitably reinforces the divisions in society. Were the energy put into pushing for 'better' segregated schools channelled into forcing improvements across the board, most especially for schools seen as 'failing', this would better serve a cohesive society. The result of disparate groups and individuals working together for the good of all is surely a more valuable lesson for children than retreating into a physical and metaphorical fortress, ignoring the problems outside faced by those not deemed worthy of the company of that 'better class' of people.
When I first knew Brighton, Harold Wilson was Prime Minister, the viadust over Lewes Road still stood, and this was a welcoming friendly place, a bit rough around the edges in places, and I loved living here. Since then, I've watched the increasing intolerence proportional to the influx of wealth during the property booms of the past 40 years, with the sanctimonious vitrues of stoney hearts whose sanitised Disneyesque distopian vision has steadily drained the vitality of the City, turning something really rather wonderful and unique into a nightmarish Regency theme park. In trying to deny the realities around them, the blinkered and yes, selfish view of many of those who seek safety in isolation are destroying the very thing that made this a special place to come and live.
I still think this is a wonderful place to live. On balance, for all its faults, one of the best. Let's hope todays children can grow to adulthood together, not seperated by artificial barriers created by greed, fear and ignorance.
Ilyich
says...
9:45pm Fri 10 Feb 12
moronslayer
says...
10:18pm Fri 10 Feb 12
I think that christian and islamic extremists / fundamentalists would strongly support segregated faith schools - which seems to be exactly why reasonable and sane people should not.
inadaptado
says...
10:37pm Fri 10 Feb 12
ghost bus driver
says...
11:06pm Fri 10 Feb 12
graham_Seagull
says...
6:46am Sat 11 Feb 12
We should resist any school that seeks to enforce differences on children, instead seek to make sure all kids have access to the best we can provide without recourse to religion or otherwise.
There was a story on here about a Muslim free school as well- that's another rubbish segmenting idea.
Hotbeans
says...
8:08am Sat 11 Feb 12
Cyril Bolleaux
says...
8:11am Sat 11 Feb 12
Tolerance is not being shown towards Christians especially by the Council. We must defend ourselves. Duncan must resign.
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
9:20am Sat 11 Feb 12
Now who was it who reported dawn Barnett?
moronslayer
says...
10:25am Sat 11 Feb 12
Cyril Bolleaux wrote:"How people bring up their children is up to them".
How people bring up their children is up to them. It is typical that people bang on about tolerance whilst directing hate filled venom towards Christians. Tolerance is not being shown towards Christians especially by the Council. We must defend ourselves. Duncan must resign.
This certainly seems to be something you and Joseph Fritzl can agree upon.
I understand that Mr Fritzl was a church-going Catholic Christian. Was god performing another experiment, or, does god only smite those from other faiths? All questions for the after-school club?
Your profoundly ignorant statement is expected and there seems no point in challenging your position - you'll only call it persecution.
Again, it seems highly likely that Christian and Islamic extremists / fundamentalists would strongly support segregated faith schools - which is a very good reason why reasonable people should not.
matt.freshfield
says...
10:54am Sat 11 Feb 12
Teach the children about science and reason and they are far more likely to grow up into employable adults.
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
12:12pm Sat 11 Feb 12
The decisions being made about the city are based on a Green ideology not a business, economic or political decision.
Indoctrinating children in schools about climate change is no different to telling them about Jesus.
I wouldn't trust the Greens or the church with children.
Remember this is the party which installs electric car charging posts saying it's eco friendly but haven't published how the electricity is made, where the infrastructure was made, and how much extra CO2 was generated building these new electric cars.
It's all indoctrination.
matt.freshfield
says...
12:49pm Sat 11 Feb 12
moronslayer
says...
2:15pm Sat 11 Feb 12
Dear Maxwell's Ghost, posting such drivel detracts from your usually sensible viewpoints.
Please don't diminsh an important issue by making it about your Green issues. Post such incoherent comments on the football threads - it might liven up the fans boring observations about all things utterly pointless.
Lucky7
says...
3:58pm Sat 11 Feb 12
As for Mr Duncan; silly, insulting comments about anyones faith from someone in public office should result in their position being unattainable. Imagine if it had been anti-semetic, for example?
Lucky7
says...
4:03pm Sat 11 Feb 12
matt.freshfield
says...
4:08pm Sat 11 Feb 12
Lucky7 wrote:@Lucky7 You need to look up the definition of anti-semitism before you start using it in a debate.
I wonder how many commentators have experience of faith schools. I went to two (one state, one independant) and they had all sorts of faiths, colours and creeds attending. My family history (like so many) is predominantly two different faiths. My children go to a faith school (currently) although we are not actually "of that faith". This school actually gets critisised for being "too" multi-ethnic. I believe it is currently the best education my children can receive. I do explain that religion is an important part of education; if only to highlight how segregation can cause friction. As does this school. Very clearly. As a parent I stand by my chose of education, and "how I chose to bring them up". They will also be told of monsters like Fritzl, who, let's face it aren't just exclusive to one particular faith!
As for Mr Duncan; silly, insulting comments about anyones faith from someone in public office should result in their position being unattainable. Imagine if it had been anti-semetic, for example?
I object to children being softened up to accept any supernatural or superstitious belief. The Church recognises the importance of 'getting them young' even if you don't. Prayer corners and religious assemblies are the tools of indoctrination.
It's amazing how the views of christians change when Islamic schools are mentioned.
Faith is the belief in something despite the evidence. Faith schools are not better because they are religious.
Lucky7
says...
4:19pm Sat 11 Feb 12
And, if you object to "children being softened up to accept any supernatural or superstitious belief" that's fine. For your children. Mine are being educated (by their school and me) that there are many religions out there, and many religious people, as well as atheists and anti-theists. Some good, some bad, some vitriolic in wanting to ram their own ideologic thinking down the throats of anyone who'll give them a forum.
However the point is: If you're of a nature to make disparaging remarks about someone elses faith, should you hold a postion in public office? I think not, what do you think?
moronslayer
says...
5:26pm Sat 11 Feb 12
Nobody ever seems to want to talk about some faith or others opposition to women receiving emergency contraception after being beaten and repeatedly gang-raped. Why do some faiths teach that it as completely acceptable to be a wife-beater?
Too many people seem to lose their lives each day because of lunatics from all faiths. The said lunatics always seem have someone who doesn't know them at all to claim it was not done in the name of their shared religion. Unfortunately, they can't get away from the fact that the said lunatics disagree with them.
Again, it seems highly likely that Christian and Islamic extremists / fundamentalists would strongly support segregated faith schools - which is a very good reason why reasonable people should not.
I have experienced a faith school - which is why I view Lucky7's apparent deceit about teaching of balanced viewpoints as laughable.
Lucky7
says...
5:49pm Sat 11 Feb 12
If you think a liberal moderate thinking person believes religion per se encourages the hideous crimes you tablet above you're wrong. These perpetrators are sick, no other reason for their acts, and as all over their victims more vunerable than them.
Also, please do not feel you have to patronise me in anyway, it's like you're trying to indoctrinate me into your way of thinking....... ;-)
BN3resident
says...
9:12am Sun 12 Feb 12
.org.uk) when you ran a piece on it back in January. This seems neither right nor fair Rebecca.
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
12:31pm Sun 12 Feb 12
However, like some of the previous Tory city councillors who got themselves into hot water with comments about gays, Ben Duncan has shown religious intolerance and should now resign.
Sorry for a particular phrase does not remove how someone really feels.
In many of my posts I have suggested the Greens approach to robbing the poor to support the rich is similar to the Tories and now we have a member with grubby little intolerant views you would expect from the Tory party.
It's time for Mr Duncan to fall on his sword and allow someone who supports freedom and intolerance to step up to represent us.
matt.freshfield
says...
1:13pm Sun 12 Feb 12
As a tax payer I don't want to fund the propagation of religious dogma. Let Christian parents pay for their own Sunday schools if they wish.
For too long religion has been beyond reproach and it has been seen as rude to question it. Times are changing. Superstitious people need to justify their behaviour just like everyone else.
The Churches are the original persecutors and it's hilarious that they try to make themselves out as victims. They are not. They are just unable to accept being treated like everyone else.
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
8:17pm Sun 12 Feb 12
Of religion is unimportant to me. Intolerance is unacceptable. Ben Duncan used an abusive phrase to articulate his opposition. He could have just stated that secular schools were what the council preferred with integration.
If a poster on here had used such words they would be removed.
It's an utter disgrace and the Greens should take action against him.
Lucky7
says...
8:35pm Sun 12 Feb 12
matt.freshfield
says...
10:20pm Sun 12 Feb 12
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:An admission policy that uses faith as a filter is discriminatory.
Matt. For me the issue isnt about whether the school gets approval, although that is for you, I am astonished that in the 21st century, in our city where the people have fought hard against bigotry, racism and homophobia we have a councillor using such abusive language against a religion. The type
Of religion is unimportant to me. Intolerance is unacceptable. Ben Duncan used an abusive phrase to articulate his opposition. He could have just stated that secular schools were what the council preferred with integration.
If a poster on here had used such words they would be removed.
It's an utter disgrace and the Greens should take action against him.
The CofE has been responsible for plenty of bigotry and discrimination over the years and it's not exactly caught up with the rest of society yet. I don't believe that religions should be immune from criticism, like you do. The majority of British tax payers don't practise any religion, so why should it be inflicted upon their children.
We need good schools for every child, not just for those with pushy bible wielding parents.
moronslayer
says...
9:49am Mon 13 Feb 12
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:Please get a grip you old ninny. It appears he used the word 'cult' when he should have said something else that means exactly the same thing.
Matt. For me the issue isnt about whether the school gets approval, although that is for you, I am astonished that in the 21st century, in our city where the people have fought hard against bigotry, racism and homophobia we have a councillor using such abusive language against a religion. The type Of religion is unimportant to me. Intolerance is unacceptable. Ben Duncan used an abusive phrase to articulate his opposition. He could have just stated that secular schools were what the council preferred with integration. If a poster on here had used such words they would be removed. It's an utter disgrace and the Greens should take action against him.
Why do so many faiths, that you enjoy defending, seem to be
over-represented in their number of kiddy-fiddlers? Is it unfair media reports? Does suspending one's disbelief help to make the unthinkable acceptable?
Various apologists for different religions have failed to address any points raised. Hardly surprising - there seems to be a history of the church looking the other way whilst a few of their flock were looking to connect.
Sarah Booker
says...
10:48am Mon 13 Feb 12
BN3resident wrote:I am the person who adds the links, not Rebecca. However, I have included the link now.
There is a direct link to the anti-King's campaign website here but I notice that you did not include a link to the King's website (www.kingsschoolhove
.org.uk) when you ran a piece on it back in January. This seems neither right nor fair Rebecca.
BN3resident
says...
1:46pm Mon 13 Feb 12
John Barnwell
says...
3:21pm Mon 13 Feb 12
BN3resident wrote:"I don't want to indoctrinate my children.." Well don't then. Or apply for Cardinal Newman.
My children go to a local CofE primary school and I would like to send them to a CofE secondary. Two substantial existing secondaries free to all, one Catholic secondary - where is my choice? I don't want to indoctrinate my children but the framework of their faith primary has been wonderful and I would like this to continue.
John Barnwell
says...
3:26pm Mon 13 Feb 12
natty1905
says...
1:04pm Wed 15 Feb 12
natty1905
says...
1:12pm Wed 15 Feb 12
whatisgoingon?!
says...
1:53pm Wed 15 Feb 12
I haven't noticed all the complaints about Christians running holiday clubs at minimal cost, so working parents do not have to pay out ridiculous childcare costs, or opening up churches so homeless people have food and somewhere to sleep, or those who are out, walking the streets of Brighton late at night, making sure drunk, teenagers are getting home safely, or those who are out there helping teenage girls, and boys, to get away from prostitution on the streets of Brighton, etc, etc.
There are people on here who should stop critisizing these people and look at what they are doing for this city, that the council are doing nothing about, and at their own cost with little thanks. I was shocked when I found out what they do and, despite my own beliefs, I would rather trust my children, and their education to a Christian school than most of the state secondary schools in Brighton!
natty1905
says...
6:28pm Wed 15 Feb 12
matt.freshfield
says...
7:19pm Wed 15 Feb 12
From your previous comments you would seem to believe parents have no influence on how their children turn out? This is utter nonsense of course.
The argument is that religious schools should not be funded by the taxpayer. A person of no religion is not less moral than a christian. Religious instruction does makes children better or worse behaved. Teaching irrational beliefs in the supernatural is not healthy and these beliefs are not held by the majority of the British tax paying public.
Good parenting and good teaching is what counts in raising happy, healthy and responsible young citizens.
alyn, southwick
says...
7:26pm Wed 15 Feb 12
matt.freshfield wrote:But the majority in this case seems to be in favour of a church school - see "Argus" poll above
YMCA, The Salvation Army, Off The Fence, AntiFreeze, Oasis are not funded by the taxpayer, therefore it has nothing to do with this discussion.
From your previous comments you would seem to believe parents have no influence on how their children turn out? This is utter nonsense of course.
The argument is that religious schools should not be funded by the taxpayer. A person of no religion is not less moral than a christian. Religious instruction does makes children better or worse behaved. Teaching irrational beliefs in the supernatural is not healthy and these beliefs are not held by the majority of the British tax paying public.
Good parenting and good teaching is what counts in raising happy, healthy and responsible young citizens.
matt.freshfield
says...
7:37pm Wed 15 Feb 12
alyn, southwick wrote:alyn thanks for that classic example of religious faith! You really think we can count an Argus poll as evidence? Knowing the sample size might help, but it still wouldn't mean much!
matt.freshfield wrote:But the majority in this case seems to be in favour of a church school - see "Argus" poll above
YMCA, The Salvation Army, Off The Fence, AntiFreeze, Oasis are not funded by the taxpayer, therefore it has nothing to do with this discussion.
From your previous comments you would seem to believe parents have no influence on how their children turn out? This is utter nonsense of course.
The argument is that religious schools should not be funded by the taxpayer. A person of no religion is not less moral than a christian. Religious instruction does makes children better or worse behaved. Teaching irrational beliefs in the supernatural is not healthy and these beliefs are not held by the majority of the British tax paying public.
Good parenting and good teaching is what counts in raising happy, healthy and responsible young citizens.
alyn, southwick
says...
9:52pm Wed 15 Feb 12
matt.freshfield wrote:OK try the 2001 UK Census (would that be a large enough sample for you) - how do you support your ASSUMPTION on who is the majority.
alyn, southwick wrote:alyn thanks for that classic example of religious faith! You really think we can count an Argus poll as evidence? Knowing the sample size might help, but it still wouldn't mean much!
matt.freshfield wrote:But the majority in this case seems to be in favour of a church school - see "Argus" poll above
YMCA, The Salvation Army, Off The Fence, AntiFreeze, Oasis are not funded by the taxpayer, therefore it has nothing to do with this discussion.
From your previous comments you would seem to believe parents have no influence on how their children turn out? This is utter nonsense of course.
The argument is that religious schools should not be funded by the taxpayer. A person of no religion is not less moral than a christian. Religious instruction does makes children better or worse behaved. Teaching irrational beliefs in the supernatural is not healthy and these beliefs are not held by the majority of the British tax paying public.
Good parenting and good teaching is what counts in raising happy, healthy and responsible young citizens.
http://www.ons.gov.u
k/ons/publications/r
e-reference-tables.h
tml?edition=tcm%3A77
-50856
(Also apparently according to Wikipedia supposedly quoting a sample ONS survey in 2010, admittedly of only 450,000, and of course Wikipedia only has a limited following and no public chance to correct their mistakes, the majority religious affiliation is still comparable to the 2001 census. http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Demography_
of_the_United_Kingdo
m#Religion)
And the bottom line is what do parents want - which according to those trying to set it up interest in places exceed places available; those wanting their children to attend will be taxpayers too. Is not the other church school in the area oversubscribed, could that be another hint to what parents want. Or do only non-religious parents count despite according to recent government statistics only making up a fifth of society (as opposed to over 70% who call themselves christian).
natty1905
says...
10:39am Thu 16 Feb 12
matt.freshfield
says...
11:04am Thu 16 Feb 12
natty1905 wrote:Daddy was going ban Christmas? Right! That is straight out of the fundamentalist manual. Then you mention Dawkins, just to 'prove' how wicked non believers are!
My parents were atheists and I became a Christian. My Dad was going to ban Christmas in our house one year. I was 21 when I made the decision and had a whole lifetime of atheist input. On the converse I know pastors children who are 'atheists' whatever that means. I wouldn't be surprised if Richard Dawkins father was a vicar and tried to 'brainwash' him at every opportunity. Are you really suggesting that all the adults walking around today are atheist or Christian based on which school they went to?
Born again Christians are completely annoying, even to life long Christians. Even God hates happy clappy born-again christians.
John Barnwell
says...
3:31pm Thu 16 Feb 12
Charismatic evangelicals believe that homsexuality is a sin. They practice speaking in tongues. Their mission is to convert everyone to their beliefs. In addition their position on women is very traditional: "All Newfrontiers churches hold to a complementarian position on gender similar to that promoted by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. This means that women are not allowed to occupy positions of governmental leadership within the local (or wider network of) churches, such as eldership or apostolic ministries."
Who else considers that a school being proposed by a charismatic, evangelical Christian who is committed to trying to convert as many people as possible to her branch of Christianity; who believes women should be subservient to men; that homosexuality is a sin; and encourages speaking in tongues, is not an obvious candidate to set up a new school in the 21st century?
BN3resident
says...
5:07pm Thu 16 Feb 12
John Barnwell
says...
5:57pm Thu 16 Feb 12
BN3resident wrote:I am reliably informed that at least one of the proposers is a member of the Church of Christ the King. What's your info BN3 resident? I have asked these questions on the King's School Facebook page: To what extent will Sue Worthing's involvement in the Church of Christ the King influence the curriculum? Is the "King" in King's School a reference to the Church of Christ the King?
the above information is wrong, the parent proposers are not members of CCK - very spurious claim designed to inflame, sources should always be checked before going to press...
I think parents considering this school deserve to know all about the people proposing the school and their personal agendas for the school they want to set up.
I suspect the proposers were hoping to keep this information quiet. They've certainly been very reticent in answering questions about who they are and their backgrounds.
Personally I think speaking in tongues and hardline views on homosexuality and a very traditional view of the role of women in society may be beyond the pale for many parents.
dearie dearie me
says...
5:58pm Thu 16 Feb 12
John Barnwell
says...
6:01pm Thu 16 Feb 12
dearie dearie me
says...
6:03pm Thu 16 Feb 12
alyn, southwick
says...
6:15pm Thu 16 Feb 12
John Barnwell wrote:Sounds like "Reds under the bed".
Sorry, meant to also add that part of the stated mission of the Church of Christ the King is to convert as many as possible to their beliefs.
And "dearie dearie" who has Natty denigrated?
BN3resident
says...
7:21pm Thu 16 Feb 12
John Barnwell
says...
7:25pm Thu 16 Feb 12
BN3resident
says...
8:17pm Thu 16 Feb 12
John Barnwell
says...
8:32pm Thu 16 Feb 12
Pork William
says...
1:19pm Fri 17 Feb 12
I doubt Mr. Duncan would be as vocal if an Islamic school had been proposed...
matt.freshfield
says...
1:38pm Fri 17 Feb 12
Pork William wrote:If it was a Muslim school I'm sure there would be an angry mob of Christians against it.
The Green Party, showing typical Marxist tolerance and understanding as usual.
I doubt Mr. Duncan would be as vocal if an Islamic school had been proposed...
whatisgoingon?!
says...
2:40pm Sat 18 Feb 12
michaeltaggart says...
4:33pm Fri 10 Feb 12
Noun:
A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.