'Street drinkers put visitors off Brighton’

11:51am Thursday 9th August 2012 in Business News By John Keenan, business editor

Traders are concerned that rising numbers of people drinking on the streets of Brighton and Hove could put off visitors.

Brighton and Hove Chamber of Commerce is to hold a debate in association with The Argus on whether the night-time economy is tarnishing the city’s reputation.

It will take place in September at City College Brighton and Hove , in Pelham Street.

Julia Chanteray, president of the Brighton and Hove Chamber of Commerce, said: “Street drinking can be intimidating and it’s not something we want to see increasing. Brighton and Hove is actually one of the safest places to visit.

“The Business Improvement District has been very successful in dealing with antisocial behaviour in the North Laine area and I’d like see that kind of initiative rolled out across the city.”

Anne Martin, manager of the Palace Pier , said that street drinking was increasing in the area. She said: “We are asking hundreds of people a week to finish their drinks before coming onto the pier.

“The number is going up and it is not to do with it being August. It’s an all year thing. I see signs in the street telling people not to drink but I have never seen anyone stopped.

“When I leave here at 10pm there are always people drinking in the street, and it is not a nice atmosphere.”

David Sewell, chairman of North Laine Traders Association, said that the area around New Road had improved recently.

He said: “The Brighton Business Improvement District has beefed up security and that has helped. I feel sorry for the pier as it seems that people are moved on to other areas of the city rather than the problem being solved.”

Sgt Richard Siggs heads up the Sussex Police taskforce dedicated to tackling the problem of street drinking in Brighton and Hove.

He said: “Street drinking in Brighton, as in other large resorts, often increases in the summer months. We do pay close attention to the issue and will address any problems that arise.

“However it should be remembered that drinking in the street is not in itself an offence and that homeless or transient people are not the only people involved.

“Wherever there are problems of nuisance or crime caused by street drinking we will always respond and are keen to work with local businesses and individuals to help with local issues.”

A spokesman for Brighton and Hove City Council said: “There is no ban on public drinking in Brighton and Hove. “However a designated public places order is in place to enable the police to confiscate alcohol from drinkers behaving in an antisocial way.”

Comments(55)

Hoarder12345444 says...
12:01pm Thu 9 Aug 12

thats rubbish, its the day street drinkers walking around at 9am that irritate me, they are everywhere near st peters church and london road.

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Helena Handcart says...
12:03pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Ever thought it might be Brighton that drives them to it?

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lordenglandofsussex says...
12:10pm Thu 9 Aug 12

I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers.

The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.

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Hooitness says...
12:12pm Thu 9 Aug 12

I come from Reading and it's no different there. Brighton isn't a special case, it's a UK wide problem.

There is no point making laws or ordinances if they are not enforced.

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Goldenwight says...
12:23pm Thu 9 Aug 12

When the smoking ban came into force, I was living on the IOW. All of the Newport pubs put tables outside on pavements and squares for smokers.

Unfortunately, the Police chose to enforce the terms of their 'no public drinking' remit very strictly and came down hard on anyone who took alcohol outside to drink. So you were stuck- either drink indoors, or smoke outdoors but not both.

Lets hope that we can find a more amicable solution here.

And I think you will find that many of these people are street people who would happily go somewhere else- if only there was somewhere else for them to go. But in over a decade living on the streets myself I have yet to come across any organization which will allow assorted drunks, drug addicts and criminal lowlife to frequent its premises to do as they please. Apart from Wetherspoons, that is.

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RogerWQ says...
12:34pm Thu 9 Aug 12

If you bother to read the article, there is no law against "drinking" in a public place, so "drinkers" are not automatically criminals or law-breakers.

Most Visitors to Brighton visit in order to drink so they will not be deterred obviously.

If the manager of such a downmarket "attraction" does not approve of what it attracts, maybe they should get another job.

hahahaha.

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sdhgfhfuyt says...
12:47pm Thu 9 Aug 12

lordenglandofsussex wrote:
I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers. The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.
I blame our Job Centre, if it was mandatory to claim benefits in the town of your birth, you would cut the street drinking population by 95%

But in practice it's probably against some EU law or something

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cancelaccount says...
1:10pm Thu 9 Aug 12

such social undesirables can be cleansed from our streets,it just requires the people to unite and visit them to have a word!

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Mel@cityclean says...
1:12pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Brighton and Hove one of the safest places. Surely that can not be true. All I ever read is someone attacked, beaten up, robbed!!! I would never visit Brighton in the night time. It just does not feel safe anymore. Feel much safer in Hove.

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Fercri Sakes says...
1:32pm Thu 9 Aug 12

The only people to blame here are the government, or maybe the bankers who caused the recession and walked off with the money.

Whenever there is a recession street drinking in Brighton and Hove increases. There were loads of street drinkers in the early 90's but as soon as the recession ended they disappeared. Over the last 3 years they've come back with a passion.

This is not a coincidence. It's simply a correlation of this and goverment spending on dealing with these issues.

I did hear a street drinker with a southern accent the other day which was a bit of a novelty.

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tonupboy says...
1:33pm Thu 9 Aug 12

If street drinkers had a afforable home to go too, they would drink at home! its ain't f-ing rocket science!

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MrBeachams says...
1:37pm Thu 9 Aug 12

''Hoarder12345444 says...
12:01pm Thu 9 Aug 12

thats rubbish, its the day street drinkers walking around at 9am that irritate me, they are everywhere near st peters church and london road.''

Those drinking at that time and in that area are all waiting for the Pharmacy across the road to open so they can get their Methadone fix

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banargustrolls says...
1:38pm Thu 9 Aug 12

St Peter's church and the London Rd area in general is becoming a no-go area for families due to swaggering red-faced drunks. You need to put a blanket ban on street drinking there and enforce it. Or give them one park area outside of town that they can get smashed in so you know where they all are when things go wrong.

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Ballroom Blitz says...
2:00pm Thu 9 Aug 12

The are signs up in New Rd banning street drinking. I walk through there regularly, and there are always the usual alkies drinking there, completely unchallenged.
Now if I know they are there, so do the police. So if nothing is being done to enforce the byelaw, it's because someone in the police force has taken a decision not to do anything about it.
Laws that are unenforced will always be ignored.

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s&k says...
2:04pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Although they can be intimidating I always feel sorry for 'street drinkers' as many are homeless, have drug or mental health issues and obviously require some sort of help to reintegrate them into society. I have far less intolerance for the night-time binge drinkers that plague all towns and cities in Britain and have frankly ruined many parts Brighton at night - but as a city we have brought this on ourselves because we have allowed it to happen and marketed the city as a 'party town'.

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bug eye says...
2:21pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Street drinkers or more so drunks, usually youngsters behaving badly not only put off visitors but put off residents too coming out to enjoy the night economy. Brighton and Hove is definitely losing out financially and getting a bad reputation in the process. The authorities seem to tolerate and therefore encourage bad behaviour and not encourage or praise good behaviour.

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tonupboy says...
2:22pm Thu 9 Aug 12

sdhgfhfuyt wrote:
lordenglandofsussex wrote: I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers. The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.
I blame our Job Centre, if it was mandatory to claim benefits in the town of your birth, you would cut the street drinking population by 95% But in practice it's probably against some EU law or something
Lordenglandofsussex!
, well, well, well, thats a grand, pompous, puffed-up title for a little man! isn't it?.
I bet you enjoy struting around the streets of Brighton like hermann goring, kicking and spiting on the less fortunate!..

God help us!

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Andy R says...
2:28pm Thu 9 Aug 12

sdhgfhfuyt wrote:
lordenglandofsussex wrote:
I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers. The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.
I blame our Job Centre, if it was mandatory to claim benefits in the town of your birth, you would cut the street drinking population by 95%

But in practice it's probably against some EU law or something
You see....that's why I always say "Comment first THEN go to pub". Do it the other way around and you get this kind of absurd nonsense.

So if I found myself unemployed, I would have to go to a place about 150 miles away where I haven't lived for about 35 years, and to which I have no ties whatsoever. Would my family, who have never lived there at all, have to come with me?

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Maxwell's Ghost says...
2:37pm Thu 9 Aug 12

You can introduce as many laws, byelaws and other restictions for anything, but if there's no one policing these rules, there's no point.
I rarely see any police on the beat in the city, except at weekends in West Street or in cars parked up.
If you visit any EU city, there are coppers standing on every corner....usually eyeing up totty but the streets are swarming with local police.
Here, you are more likely to see a criminal on the street than a copper.

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ripmaxman says...
3:05pm Thu 9 Aug 12

I live near George Street in Hove and recently I have seen an increasing number of street drinkers sitting in empty shop doorways.

Most of them are harmless, however I have been asked for money, or cigarettes and some are very intimidating when you ignore them.

When they move on they always leave a mess and the smell of urine. Someone has to clear up the mess which is not a pleasant job to undertake.

The other place they seem to congregate is in the cemetery around the back of St Andrews Church which I would think is desecration of the area.

As I have seen from some of the other comments it does put people off from going to certain areas in and around Brighton.

I think all drinking in public should be banned who ever they are.

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clubrob6 says...
3:12pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Why has the palace pier got to ask hundreds a week to drink up befor entering the pier?The answer is simple bars are pricing themselves out of reach for a lot of people,so itsforcing people to get cheap drink at supermarkets and only have a couple in the pubs.You cant blame a lot of bars for high prices as their overheads are high and the high amount of tax on booze.I dont blame people having a few befor going out i for one could not afford staying in a pub like i used to.The main problem street drinkers are the likes of the ones that gather on george street hove in the mornings by afternoon they are drunk the police tried to move them on but they just come back i suppose with police cuts they have more important things to deal with .Look at west street the other week 2 police on when clubs getting out as others were busy and this government said front line policing wont be hit LIES.

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clubrob6 says...
3:23pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Mel@cityclean wrote:
Brighton and Hove one of the safest places. Surely that can not be true. All I ever read is someone attacked, beaten up, robbed!!! I would never visit Brighton in the night time. It just does not feel safe anymore. Feel much safer in Hove.
I agree but on paper it must look safe as probably most crime is not reported and you certainly dont see the police on the street except places like west street after dark,but even there the other week they were down to 2 police when the clubs were getting out as other police were busy.FRONT LINE POLICE ARE GETTING HIT HARD.I dont class brighton and hove as safe and its getting worse.

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RickH says...
3:42pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
You can introduce as many laws, byelaws and other restictions for anything, but if there's no one policing these rules, there's no point. I rarely see any police on the beat in the city, except at weekends in West Street or in cars parked up. If you visit any EU city, there are coppers standing on every corner....usually eyeing up totty but the streets are swarming with local police. Here, you are more likely to see a criminal on the street than a copper.
I travel an awful lot with work around the EU, at least one EU capital per week. To state that '...streets are swarming with local police...' and '...coppers are standing on every corner...' is certainly not my experience.

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RickH says...
3:44pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Andy R wrote:
sdhgfhfuyt wrote:
lordenglandofsussex wrote: I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers. The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.
I blame our Job Centre, if it was mandatory to claim benefits in the town of your birth, you would cut the street drinking population by 95% But in practice it's probably against some EU law or something
You see....that's why I always say "Comment first THEN go to pub". Do it the other way around and you get this kind of absurd nonsense. So if I found myself unemployed, I would have to go to a place about 150 miles away where I haven't lived for about 35 years, and to which I have no ties whatsoever. Would my family, who have never lived there at all, have to come with me?
Spot on, and to blame the EU for not being able to enact such a mad provision is straight out of the 'UKIP Book of Mad Things to Blame On the EU'! :)

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Nathan_Adler says...
4:13pm Thu 9 Aug 12

I am a liberal man, but these street rats need shooting.

The Greens, no doubt, will harp on about sociological issues put the tramps there. I will argue, quite successfully, that they themselves put them there.

Scum of the earth.

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lorrie1 says...
4:20pm Thu 9 Aug 12

tonupboy wrote:
If street drinkers had a afforable home to go too, they would drink at home! its ain't f-ing rocket science!
Most of the street drinkers in Brighton do have there own property! They congregate together because its boring sitting indoors on your own.
I know this as ive been a sponsor to a lot of them, and someone wrote on here that they hang around st peters and london rd why? Thats where a lot of the Heroin/ crack dealers hang about, specially bottom of trafalgar st

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jo_brown says...
4:24pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Its disgusting down on London Road, by St Peters Church and the park by St Bartholomews. Scary and intimidating! Also in Trafalgar Street car park, its becoming more and more filthy and anti-social.

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D360 says...
5:19pm Thu 9 Aug 12

RickH wrote:
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
You can introduce as many laws, byelaws and other restictions for anything, but if there's no one policing these rules, there's no point. I rarely see any police on the beat in the city, except at weekends in West Street or in cars parked up. If you visit any EU city, there are coppers standing on every corner....usually eyeing up totty but the streets are swarming with local police. Here, you are more likely to see a criminal on the street than a copper.
I travel an awful lot with work around the EU, at least one EU capital per week. To state that '...streets are swarming with local police...' and '...coppers are standing on every corner...' is certainly not my experience.
This is not my experience either, having recently been to Paris for a week and I saw two cops the whole time. The only place I have ever truely seen a "cop on every corner" is New York around times square.

I do not believe Brighton is safer than ever, I agree with the comments that a lot of trouble doesn't get reported. Every time i go into the city centre day or night there will be some drunks shouting or being invited back to shops by security guards

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Man With No Name says...
5:44pm Thu 9 Aug 12

sdhgfhfuyt wrote:
lordenglandofsussex wrote:
I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers. The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.
I blame our Job Centre, if it was mandatory to claim benefits in the town of your birth, you would cut the street drinking population by 95%

But in practice it's probably against some EU law or something
It would help if it was enforced that you had to actually be look for a job to claim jobseekers

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Angryoldman says...
8:30pm Thu 9 Aug 12

sdhgfhfuyt wrote:
lordenglandofsussex wrote:
I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers. The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.
I blame our Job Centre, if it was mandatory to claim benefits in the town of your birth, you would cut the street drinking population by 95%

But in practice it's probably against some EU law or something
No its just plain stupid. Dhu!

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Rabid says...
10:17pm Thu 9 Aug 12

lordenglandofsussex wrote:
I blame Brighton Police. They are not interested in patrolling the streets and accosting these law breakers.

The Police have their priorities wrong and blame cutbacks. Seventy years ago the Police had far less resources yet knew how to collar the criminal far more effectively.
Anyone else think lordenglandofsussex is the most predictable & ill-informed commenter on here?

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boblat says...
11:46pm Thu 9 Aug 12

Nathan_Adler wrote:
I am a liberal man, but these street rats need shooting.

The Greens, no doubt, will harp on about sociological issues put the tramps there. I will argue, quite successfully, that they themselves put them there.

Scum of the earth.
I'm sorry, but this kind of talk isn't normal. ''Street rats''?.''Shoot them''?.''Scum of the earth''?....

This is a comment forum, not a HATE rag!!

A lot of these ''People'' have suffered real human problems. If you can't stand to see them, then DON'T look..Simple!!

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gnarlychaos says...
1:45am Fri 10 Aug 12

Hoarder12345444 wrote:
thats rubbish, its the day street drinkers walking around at 9am that irritate me, they are everywhere near st peters church and london road.
near st peters church london rd is hardley everywhere.

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gnarlychaos says...
2:06am Fri 10 Aug 12

A walk around Brighton at anytime of day or night and in no particular district highlight thay the population of brighton could be p;aced under three catorgories. A third looking like they are in urgent need of some form of community care. Another third looking like they are just about to help the police with there enquiries.
the remainder just look like everyone else. delusioned.narcistic
.failures.in search of narcotics alcohol and the chance to fleece daytrippers of there ill gotten gains. take the goodies to cash converters and spend the proceeds on booze or drugs all within eyesight of st peters church.

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NickBrt says...
2:57am Fri 10 Aug 12

This, sadly, is what you get when your MP and your Councillors invite every bit of pondlife with a pulse into the City, whilst paying scant regard to decent law abiding residents.

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John Steed says...
8:56am Fri 10 Aug 12

no worse than any other south coast town, worthing is the same, topers are around day in day out, its the nerve to ask for change that gets me annoyed, usually when sitting on a door step along from an off license due to my normal vitriolic response they never ask me twice i am proud to say i am no more polite to scroungers of cigarettes either, the best way of dealing with this street scum is to let them know your opinion of them, they are selfish riffraff that rarely have any intention of sorting them selves out, i would and do support those who seriously address their issues, but the rest move them on, get them out the area and leave them in no doubt NOT WANTED

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Laserluke says...
2:00pm Fri 10 Aug 12

Helena Handcart wrote:
Ever thought it might be Brighton that drives them to it?
Lol. Why do Worthing residents hate Brighton?

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Helena Handcart says...
2:18pm Fri 10 Aug 12

Laserluke wrote:
Helena Handcart wrote:
Ever thought it might be Brighton that drives them to it?
Lol. Why do Worthing residents hate Brighton?
No point is going against the tide of public opinion ;) xx

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tonupboy says...
2:21pm Fri 10 Aug 12

If people think Britains towns and cities have are blighted by crime, begging, drink and drugs problems, visit some the former eastern soviet bloc countries now, this will open your eyes and your tiny minds!
You will soon realise Britain is a paradise!

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tonupboy says...
2:21pm Fri 10 Aug 12

If people think Britains towns and cities have are blighted by crime, begging, drink and drugs problems, visit some the former eastern soviet bloc countries now, this will open your eyes and your tiny minds!
You will soon realise Britain is a paradise!

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Reflect on your post says...
7:14pm Fri 10 Aug 12

I am so frustrated reading these comments when anyone with a brain can see its not OK to have people drinking and sleeping in shop and other property doorways and then urinating and defecating at will.

The problem people should be locked up - at just an average of £55K per annum per person the cost to the UK will be tiny and the benefits huge.

Alternatively, if you are one of the brainless morons that think its OK, why not take one of these lovely folk into your own house?

Do me a favour!

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D360 says...
7:34am Sat 11 Aug 12

tonupboy wrote:
If people think Britains towns and cities have are blighted by crime, begging, drink and drugs problems, visit some the former eastern soviet bloc countries now, this will open your eyes and your tiny minds!
You will soon realise Britain is a paradise!
Compared to the Eastern Block yes. But compare Brighton now to what it was like five or ten years ago.

Have a look at the state of the beach this morning.

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Barquentine says...
12:54pm Sat 11 Aug 12

Yesterday I saw two street drunks trying to kick the cash box off the wall of a phone box. This was at 5pm in Edwards Street right next to the police station. Later that day I was in a friend's car waiting at the lights when a drunk shoved his head through the window and asked to 'borrow' 50 pence. Lovely place, Brighton.

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boblat says...
5:56pm Sat 11 Aug 12

WTF is the matter with you Brighton ''New Wavers''?? Did you EVER have any Humanity??

You even begrudge half a quid....Mean as...s....Time to live and let live!!
One day you may NEED the Streeters to save your lives!!....?

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chrisinbrighton says...
11:33am Mon 13 Aug 12

If the government wer'nt so tax greedy and pubs were reasonable prices the problem would be much less.
Also if you put hostels and backpackers places over the city in residential promenant areas one needs to expect this sort of thing.
what happened to 24hr drinking ?its virtualy non existant most pubs dont open till 11am or noon where is anyone homeless supposed to drink ?

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Joshiman says...
1:31pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Just ban street drinking.You want to drink then drink at home or in a pub or restaurant.
Simple.

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tonupboy says...
1:45pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Ban pensioners from pubs, they're the only ones that can afford to go to pubs,

Then watch beer prices fall, street drinkers can afford to go into pubs then, problem solved!

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Fairfax Sakes says...
4:24pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Ban any fruit flavoured cocktails and any drink served in a poncy glass-that'll soon seperate the sheep from the goats..."oooh mumsy!"

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uniteagainstparkingcharges says...
11:51am Tue 14 Aug 12

At a time when unemployment is at its highest in years and the few jobs that are available barely pay enough to cover rent, utility bills and council tax. Next, factor in the rising price of food and other essentials, it is perhaps not surprising people are increasingly likely to drink on the street.

The main reason most drink on the streets is because it is too expensive to drink in pubs and bars. I work a 40+ hour week but after paying all my bills, it is simply not viable to then drink in pubs - unless it is a special occasion.

Therefore, I, like most people, will buy some cans and enjoy a drink with friends in one of Brighton's many parks. We do not litter, we do not intimidate people, we just enjoy the sunshine and a few drinks.

To pay £4 a pint on average in most of the cities pubs and bars is the reason most choose to buy cans from the off-licences and convenience stores that are scattered around town.

This is not a reason for the government to make off-licences more expensive but instead lower taxes for alcohol purchased in pubs and get people back in their local!

Local pubs offer a hub for local communities and when I was younger, it was through drinking in my local that I was offered various employment opportunities. Let's get pubs thriving again and bring our local communities back together.

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uniteagainstparkingcharges says...
11:51am Tue 14 Aug 12

At a time when unemployment is at its highest in years and the few jobs that are available barely pay enough to cover rent, utility bills and council tax. Next, factor in the rising price of food and other essentials, it is perhaps not surprising people are increasingly likely to drink on the street.

The main reason most drink on the streets is because it is too expensive to drink in pubs and bars. I work a 40+ hour week but after paying all my bills, it is simply not viable to then drink in pubs - unless it is a special occasion.

Therefore, I, like most people, will buy some cans and enjoy a drink with friends in one of Brighton's many parks. We do not litter, we do not intimidate people, we just enjoy the sunshine and a few drinks.

To pay £4 a pint on average in most of the cities pubs and bars is the reason most choose to buy cans from the off-licences and convenience stores that are scattered around town.

This is not a reason for the government to make off-licences more expensive but instead lower taxes for alcohol purchased in pubs and get people back in their local!

Local pubs offer a hub for local communities and when I was younger, it was through drinking in my local that I was offered various employment opportunities. Let's get pubs thriving again and bring our local communities back together.

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tonupboy says...
12:01pm Tue 14 Aug 12

Greedy Pub Landlords and breweries must take their share of the blame for expensive beer prices in pubs, as well as Governments high taxation on alcohol!

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Idontbelieveit1948 says...
8:02pm Tue 14 Aug 12

I reckon most street drinkers are Green Councillors - it explains a lot

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boblat says...
1:09am Wed 15 Aug 12

It's got nothing to do with Green councillors with liking a pint at a reasonable cost at all.

EVERYBODY will love their pint a half the cost, so why can't they alll enjoy a pint for £1.20 at an ''off licence'' to get together on the beach, insead of paying £4.00 at a trendy?? (bar)...The ''trend.. just ain't worth it anymore!!
Words are words and commitments wherever made,. if you all can not corrupt it all !!!!
Basic princibles produce basic intuitions..GREEN means Earth and Green Pastures!!!!

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boblat says...
1:09am Wed 15 Aug 12

It's got nothing to do with Green councillors with liking a pint at a reasonable cost at all.

EVERYBODY will love their pint a half the cost, so why can't they alll enjoy a pint for £1.20 at an ''off licence'' to get together on the beach, insead of paying £4.00 at a trendy?? (bar)...The ''trend.. just ain't worth it anymore!!
Words are words and commitments wherever made,. if you all can not corrupt it all !!!!
Basic princibles produce basic intuitions..GREEN means Earth and Green Pastures!!!!

Report this post »

NickBrt says...
10:32pm Wed 15 Aug 12

This blame for this must lie with the greens, they're to blame for everything else.

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