Are parking charges to blame for Brighton's missing visitors? (From The Argus)
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Are parking charges to blame for Brighton's missing visitors?
10:01am Wednesday 15th August 2012 in Business News By John Keenan
A war of words has broken out over the effect parking charges are having on visitors to Brighton and Hove.
The number of people using the Visitor Information Centre in Brighton has plummeted by more than 10% compared to last year, with more and more staying away each month.
Traders last night blamed Brighton and Hove City Council ’s decision to push up parking prices by up to 100% for the falling number of people coming to shop.
But council officials deny the parking charges are to blame – saying bad weather and the recession are responsible for the fall.
Figures obtained by The Argus using the Freedom of Information Act show that 24,689 fewer people have used the information centre in Pavilion Buildings in the first seven months of this year compared to the same period in 2011.
In the first three months of the year the numbers remained fairly static.
But since parking charges were increased on April 1, visitor levels have slumped. In April numbers were down 6%, in May and June 14% and in July 19%.
The numbers are used by Brighton and Hove City Council to gauge the volume of tourists visiting the city. As reported in The Argus, the Visitor Information Centre is due to close its doors for good next year.
A spokeswoman for the council said “several factors” could have affected numbers, including bad weather, the recession and more people swapping the visitor centre for information online.
She said: “We don’t believe car parking charges have had a significant effect on visitor numbers as the council raises fees in April every year and this has never previously affected the figures.”
Claire Ottewell, the chair of the city’s Tourism Alliance, said: “The increase in parking charges has clearly put visitors off."
David Sewell, chair of North Laine Traders Association and owner of the Pavilion Gardens Cafe, said the poor weather and high parking charges had delivered a double whammy to traders.
Adam Chinery, from Brighton Seafront Traders’ Association, and Glen Harman, the boss at Waves cafe in Madeira Drive, said businesses on the seafront were being wiped out by the parking charge increase.
Mr Harman said: “You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to work out that it’s the parking charges that are keeping people away. People go home and tell their friends and family not to come here.”
Council leader Jason Kitcat last week told a meeting of Brighton and Hove Business Support Partnership that parking charges were increased to stop people using their cars.
Last night he told The Argus: “Bus passenger numbers are up 5% since the parking charges were introduced. People are looking for alternative ways to get into the city such as bus and train and we want to accelerate that.”
A spokesman for the council added: ”Visitor numbers to attractions such as the Royal Pavilion, Preston Manor and the city’s museums are up by more than 5% compared to last year. The trend has seen an extra 10,000 people visit these attractions, despite the dismal weather.”
But Ann Martin, manager at the palace Pier said that poor weather will have boosted the numbers at indoor attractions.
She said: “Our visitor numbers are not up. Any outdoor attraction is bound to have suffered because of the weather.”
Comments(158)
Fight Back
says...
10:15am Wed 15 Aug 12
What an idiotic comparison to make. It's the AMOUNT of increase that has stopped visitors - a much higher increase than EVER before. I know plenty of people, myself included, who no longer visit the city centre due to the parking charges. If this is replicated to out of town visitors then clearly the council are sticking their head in the sand. Time for the Greens to go.
Martha Gunn
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10:17am Wed 15 Aug 12
Pitviper
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10:18am Wed 15 Aug 12
leobrighton
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10:18am Wed 15 Aug 12
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
10:24am Wed 15 Aug 12
I also noted a number of parking tickets and a very disgruntled motorist bemoaning the city.
The Argus should ask the Marina if it has seen a drop in visitors as a comparison, as the Marina provides free parking.
If they too are seeing a reduction in footfall, one cannot blame parking fees solely for the reduction in visitors.
The Heretic
says...
10:38am Wed 15 Aug 12
I doubt doubling parking charges has helped one little bit. I recall the same arguments when on-street parking effectively ended in the centre of town (Anyne else remember John Vokins' one-man crusade?)
The weather for most of this 'summer' (dictionary definition-not mine) has been pretty atrocious, and though I'm sure someone will blame the current incumbents at the Town Hall, I'm certain that there were equally dire summers under other parties' rule in previous years.
So, how's Littlehampton doing during the same period, how about Eastbourne or the Isle of Wight? Without something to compare the Brighton & Hove visitor numbers with, this article only serves conjecture, finger pointing and name calling. All jolly good fun, but abjectly fails to do what it pretends to, i.e identify a reason for the lack of punters.
Sloppy reporting? Someone with an axe to grind? Or a combination of both? Vote now!
pjwilk
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10:39am Wed 15 Aug 12
Fight Back
says...
10:39am Wed 15 Aug 12
leobrighton wrote:With three children I'll not be dragging all the bits and bobs needed for a day out on the train thank you. I'll just go to Worthing, Eastbourne, Littlehampton or Bournemouth who do welcome visitors with cars. Clearly I'm not the only one to take my money elsewhere. The Greens can preach about using the trains or buses as much as they like - I, and many others, will ignore them and visit places that do want tourists.
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
Roundbill
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10:40am Wed 15 Aug 12
And there was I, assuming a visitors information centre was the sort of place where visitors could, y'know, get information...
bug eye
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10:49am Wed 15 Aug 12
davyboy
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10:58am Wed 15 Aug 12
Fercri Sakes
says...
11:02am Wed 15 Aug 12
Lovely to see that so far 57% of respondents are so short-sighted that they think a few quid added on to a parking fare is detering large numbers of people from visiting the city.
Can we blame the parking prices on the lack of cricket in Hove this year too? **** those Greens :)
Neil Schofield
says...
11:05am Wed 15 Aug 12
The Heretic wrote:There's a lot of truth here. What the Argus piece lacks is any real evidence. Yes, lots of anecdote, but no hard economic evidence; the comparison with other seaside resorts will be instructive, and there is compelling evidence that the sports events in East London in the last few weeks have had quite a bad effect on retailing across the country. And of course the weather has been poor. My impression - living close to the London Road and cycling along it on a near-daily basis - is that the queues of traffic to get into town are as bad as they have ever been; but that's just more anecdote.
Lovely piece of autosuggestion regarding the poll. If the headline had read "maxwells ghost to blame for Brighton's missing visitors" (sorry mg!) I'd expect that the percentage jumping straight at parking as 'the' issue would be a sightly less!
I doubt doubling parking charges has helped one little bit. I recall the same arguments when on-street parking effectively ended in the centre of town (Anyne else remember John Vokins' one-man crusade?)
The weather for most of this 'summer' (dictionary definition-not mine) has been pretty atrocious, and though I'm sure someone will blame the current incumbents at the Town Hall, I'm certain that there were equally dire summers under other parties' rule in previous years.
So, how's Littlehampton doing during the same period, how about Eastbourne or the Isle of Wight? Without something to compare the Brighton & Hove visitor numbers with, this article only serves conjecture, finger pointing and name calling. All jolly good fun, but abjectly fails to do what it pretends to, i.e identify a reason for the lack of punters.
Sloppy reporting? Someone with an axe to grind? Or a combination of both? Vote now!
The Argus has some history on this issue - publishing a photo of Marine Parade taken on a wet Wednesday in April and claiming that the empty parking spaces evidenced a collapse in seafront trade.
Let's have some hard evidence, backed by comparisons with other towns.
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
says...
11:05am Wed 15 Aug 12
The bottom line, however unpleasant it may be for some to accept, is that cars have an important role to play in getting people into our city and they have to be catered for. That's assuming of course that the Council actually want people to visit Brighton ...
s&k
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11:12am Wed 15 Aug 12
Fight Back
says...
11:15am Wed 15 Aug 12
Fercri Sakes wrote:By a few quid you mean almost doubling in most places ? Of course it's deterring people from coming. It's certainly stopping locals from using the city centre.
Forget the anti-Green naysayers here it's all to do with the weather and the recession. Plus due to the mobile web people are able to access information on the go, rather than go to the visitors centre.
Lovely to see that so far 57% of respondents are so short-sighted that they think a few quid added on to a parking fare is detering large numbers of people from visiting the city.
Can we blame the parking prices on the lack of cricket in Hove this year too? **** those Greens :)
Not sure what you're whittering on about regards the cricket but that's nothing unusual from a Green - complete gibberish.
disrember
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11:33am Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes
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11:44am Wed 15 Aug 12
BornInBrighton1968
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11:46am Wed 15 Aug 12
sherrinned
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11:53am Wed 15 Aug 12
jamus77
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11:55am Wed 15 Aug 12
Nothing to do with the longest and deepest recession in 80 years, then? A few years ago I felt a lot wealthier. I spent a lot of my disposable income on nice things for the home. It was 'middle-class tat' basically. Now, although my circumstances haven't changed, I feel a lot more cautious. I feel less wealthy. I can't remember the last time I bought something superfluous to my basic needs. Most of my friends and family are in the same boat, we just don't feel like spending a lot of money right now.
Fight Back
says...
11:56am Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:A fair point but the only thing "shutting up" will be the city centre businesses when the visitor numbers drop even further. Then of course hundreds of people will lose their jobs. At least project Green will then have achieved it's aim - an empty city centre.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
bus nut
says...
12:06pm Wed 15 Aug 12
davyboy wrote:are you for real davyboy there is a ticket on b&h buses called the FAMILY explorer and guess what its for FAMILIES and guess what it costs err well last time i looked on my ticket machine it still cost £10.00 thats two adults and upto three children upto the age of 16 maybe im missing something here .... the biggest problem with this city is parking charges and lack of park and ride facilities
of course it is parking charges, on top of fuel prices, and ridiculous train fares, people just haven't got the money to pay £20 to park on top of maybe £50 for petrol. families should look at other options, especially the 'family and friends' railcard, which really does reduce your fares. brightons councillors have really shot themselves in the foot, with their parking charges, and if i was running the bus company, i would be looking at a family day ticket for a tenner! that would get people off the roads, even local people.
PorkBoat
says...
12:13pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:The motor lobby hates faces?
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
brightonian57
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12:15pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Annumella
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12:18pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Annumella
says...
12:18pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
12:24pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Down by the Peter Pan area a number of table tennis tables have been installed.
Kids are playing on them and when the ball goes out of play, the kids chase the balls into the cycle lane.
I saw two children hit by cyclists on Sunday.
When will people realise that putting cyclists near pedestrians is bloody dangerous and I know as I suffered a broken collar bone after a pedestrian ran into a cycle lane on the seafront.
I no longer use cycle lanes. It's safer to use roads where drivers understand cyclists.
Fight Back
says...
12:25pm Wed 15 Aug 12
brightonian57 wrote:So go on Greens - evidence yet again we're losing visitors - do you really want to shut down the city ?
Are parking charges to blame for Brighton's missing visitors?. . . . .Of course they are. My family have always used Brighton beach, until this year. Now we all go to Seaford, a lovely beach and plenty of free parking a pavements width a way from the beach. I doubt we'll come back to Brighton even if they reduce the charges to the previous levels. Bye bye Brighton beach for ever.
Para2805
says...
12:27pm Wed 15 Aug 12
leobrighton wrote:Have you seen the headlines about rail fares? We're all being shafted left, right and centre!
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
Para2805
says...
12:33pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:Would be nice to live on your planet.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
toldsloth
says...
12:37pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:I despair when I read reactionary clap-trap from people like you. The "facist motor lobby" are nothing of the sort and you really need to get your head straigh dear boy. I am a cyclist, pedestrian, TAXI, bus user and motorist. I use the most appropriate means of transport for a particular journey from the options available to me. I can choose to take my car into the city centre and pay ridiculous parking charges or I can walk, call a cab or cycle. If the worst comes to the worst I can take one of the lovely buses belonging to Mr.French however thsi option really does mean I risk my life and that of others by travelling on something which seems to transcend the Highway Code by speeding, jumping red lights and throwing me and the other passengers around indie it due to inconsiderate driving and poor road surfaces (incidentally I thought B&H Buses were refusing to use North St until it was resurfaced - nice to see they stuck to their guns). In general the taxi service in the town is very good with only the odd idiot driver. Prices are reasonable too compared to other places. Walking is an option sometimes but not always, especially when I have to fetch or carry items or the weather is bad. Cycling is a possibility but the lack of places to lock your bike in safety is an issue. Also the cycle lanes that all the two wheel loonies spout on about are at best useless (Dyke Road etc) and at worst, downright deadly (The Drive, Seafront etc). Lets have a balanced view on this - people want and NEED to use cars to enter the town however we have a city without a park and ride scheme of any kind, a city with probably the highest parking charges outside of London and a council seemingly hell bent on stopping people from exercising their right of choice. Mr KitKat and his cronies need to wake up - there are a lot of very annoyed people out here who think you are doing severe damage to the "green cause" with your poorly considered policies. As a result it is pretty much a certainty that you will be thrown out at the next election and lose your best chance of actually making a difference.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
MuammarQaddafi
says...
12:40pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:So a man's to put the wife and three kids on bikes and they're all to ride thirty miles each way at the risk of life and limb for the glory of you and the Groan Party? Thank you, not while Worthing and Eastbourne have beaches.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
john newman
says...
12:43pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
says...
12:48pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:Wow, so much anger. So much indeed that it's clouded your judgment. We're talking about Brighton's missing VISITORS. If you think about it you'll realise why your comment doesn't offer any solutions.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
Nathan_Adler
says...
12:50pm Wed 15 Aug 12
They will do anything in their power to stop anybody who does not donate money to filthy left wing causes.
Well done to all those who voted them in. You indeed have made a difference,
Fools.
steveP2009
says...
12:58pm Wed 15 Aug 12
steveP2009
says...
12:59pm Wed 15 Aug 12
toldsloth wrote:Spot on.
Fairfax Sakes wrote:I despair when I read reactionary clap-trap from people like you. The "facist motor lobby" are nothing of the sort and you really need to get your head straigh dear boy. I am a cyclist, pedestrian, TAXI, bus user and motorist. I use the most appropriate means of transport for a particular journey from the options available to me. I can choose to take my car into the city centre and pay ridiculous parking charges or I can walk, call a cab or cycle. If the worst comes to the worst I can take one of the lovely buses belonging to Mr.French however thsi option really does mean I risk my life and that of others by travelling on something which seems to transcend the Highway Code by speeding, jumping red lights and throwing me and the other passengers around indie it due to inconsiderate driving and poor road surfaces (incidentally I thought B&H Buses were refusing to use North St until it was resurfaced - nice to see they stuck to their guns). In general the taxi service in the town is very good with only the odd idiot driver. Prices are reasonable too compared to other places. Walking is an option sometimes but not always, especially when I have to fetch or carry items or the weather is bad. Cycling is a possibility but the lack of places to lock your bike in safety is an issue. Also the cycle lanes that all the two wheel loonies spout on about are at best useless (Dyke Road etc) and at worst, downright deadly (The Drive, Seafront etc). Lets have a balanced view on this - people want and NEED to use cars to enter the town however we have a city without a park and ride scheme of any kind, a city with probably the highest parking charges outside of London and a council seemingly hell bent on stopping people from exercising their right of choice. Mr KitKat and his cronies need to wake up - there are a lot of very annoyed people out here who think you are doing severe damage to the "green cause" with your poorly considered policies. As a result it is pretty much a certainty that you will be thrown out at the next election and lose your best chance of actually making a difference.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
Ballroom Blitz
says...
1:09pm Wed 15 Aug 12
leobrighton wrote:And how would say. a family of four justify the extortionate railway ticket prices? Get real. For families visiting the car is the only viable option.
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
RickH
says...
1:15pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Ballroom Blitz
says...
1:15pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Of course this is anecdotal, but I have to say I don't come into the city to shop any more, for just that reason. If I can't get it at Asda or Sainsburys, where there's free parking, I go without.
I can't be the only person who thinks like that.
lfcrule1972
says...
1:17pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Since the ridiculous car park increases we haven't been and that's a real shame as we always enjoyed our visits. Whilst I would never claim we spent hundreds of £ on every visit we did always shop, sight see and have a meal - now this income and that of our visiting friends is going to other locations that don't try to sting the car driver. Please remember that the Govt already has that racket cornered.
Michael Inkpin-Leissner
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1:20pm Wed 15 Aug 12
davyboy
says...
1:26pm Wed 15 Aug 12
bus nut wrote:as i don't live in the area, i was unaware of the family ticket. park and ride would be the most obvious answer, but the council won't release any land, will they. that is because they would lose out on their little goldmine of parking charges.
davyboy wrote:are you for real davyboy there is a ticket on b&h buses called the FAMILY explorer and guess what its for FAMILIES and guess what it costs err well last time i looked on my ticket machine it still cost £10.00 thats two adults and upto three children upto the age of 16 maybe im missing something here .... the biggest problem with this city is parking charges and lack of park and ride facilities
of course it is parking charges, on top of fuel prices, and ridiculous train fares, people just haven't got the money to pay £20 to park on top of maybe £50 for petrol. families should look at other options, especially the 'family and friends' railcard, which really does reduce your fares. brightons councillors have really shot themselves in the foot, with their parking charges, and if i was running the bus company, i would be looking at a family day ticket for a tenner! that would get people off the roads, even local people.
Reporter1
says...
1:32pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Pierlife
says...
1:42pm Wed 15 Aug 12
The Heretic
says...
1:50pm Wed 15 Aug 12
RickH wrote:Not just the Argus I'm afraid, RickH, there was a headline on the Yahoo! UK 'News' website a couple of days back boldly reporting (if you can call it that!) a 24% increase in accidents recorded on 20mph roads. Not a dickie-bird about the relevant year-on-year comparative mileage of 20mph zones, which has increased dramatically over the last 12 months, or the fact that statistics included for new 20mph zones would obviously have been previously included under the former speed limit. Without that information, the 'report' I mentioned was about as meaningful as this unenlightened offering from a correspondent who, frankly, should know better.
So the Argus cites a single, simple statistic (forgetting the difference between causation and correlation in the process), then gets a 'rent-a-quote' statement from someone who wishes to blame the recent up-lift in parking charges and then everyone - with a few exceptions - falls for the same recycled 'anti-parking fees' tripe from the Argus again. And I agree, they have form on this as a previous poster notes ie a single picture taken mid-week in April in appalling weather as 'evidence'. I'm beginning to think that the Argus is being used as an 'anti-Green' campaigning tool more than a serious local paper these days.
This type of 'reporting' is regretably all too pervasive these days. Whilst it appears merely sloppy, when you look at the subject matter covered, there does seem to be a pattern appearing, and it's a trick as old as the hills. Selectively misquote or omit information, include irrelevant data to obfuscate and peddle a particular agenda. Unfortunately, as official statistics are abused by both national and local government and the media in equal measure, it's becoming increasingly difficult to verify the truth of just about ANY quoted figures, and one is forced to fall back on discernment and common sense, both of which commodities are seemingly in diminishing supply nowadays.
Thumper Hove
says...
2:04pm Wed 15 Aug 12
To suggest that visitors will still come but opt for buses and (expensive trains) instead of cars is utter madness and shows how incompetent the Greens are at showing common sense. Car drivers will simply go to other seaside towns/cities instead and they are already doing this - for example Eastbourne has seen an increase this year.
I cannot wait for the next local elections, the Greens need to be kicked out as they are not in touch with the city's residents and are destroying our wonderful city. Sadly it will take years to undo the mess they are creating (visitors shoved away will take a long time to tempt back here).
Old Ale Man
says...
2:10pm Wed 15 Aug 12
John Keenan
says...
2:14pm Wed 15 Aug 12
No the Argus has not cited a simple statistic. The Excel spread sheet linked at the bottom of the news story gives the figures in full. Nor did I get a 'rent a quote' statement. I quoted the council and I quoted a number of traders. It is not 'sloppy' reporting that is regrettably pervasive; it is half-baked comments.
ripmaxman
says...
2:19pm Wed 15 Aug 12
leobrighton wrote:You are living in the long distant past and it’s where you belong.
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
What do you suggest people do that don’t live near reasonable public transport or are disabled?
If you want to visit Brighton for example from outside London you first have to get into London maybe get the underground to Victoria and then the train to Brighton. Try doing that especially if you have children.
taman
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2:28pm Wed 15 Aug 12
ripmaxman
says...
2:31pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fercri Sakes wrote:Get a life sad’o.
Forget the anti-Green naysayers here it's all to do with the weather and the recession. Plus due to the mobile web people are able to access information on the go, rather than go to the visitors centre. Lovely to see that so far 57% of respondents are so short-sighted that they think a few quid added on to a parking fare is detering large numbers of people from visiting the city. Can we blame the parking prices on the lack of cricket in Hove this year too? **** those Greens :)
Do you honestly think it is only the weather and recession putting people off. Get real!
So paying £20 to park on the seafront is a small increase. All I can say is you must have a large amount of disposable income or ride a bike.
What do you suggest people do that don’t live near reasonable public transport or are disabled? And worst of all families with children would have bring everything with them.
I don’t go into Brighton anymore and not just because of the high parking charges busses are also expensive.
ripmaxman
says...
2:38pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:May I suggest that you move elsewhere preferably another planet as that’s where you would be happy.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
I drive because I have no other option and you are most probably one of those cyclists that think they own the pavement and don’t have to take any notice of road signs or traffic lights.
ripmaxman
says...
2:40pm Wed 15 Aug 12
I am not sure what planet Jason Kitcat is from but while you can buy cars and petrol/diesel people will always use cars. So get real Jason before you and the Greens totally ruin the City!!
All that has happened because of the ridiculous hike in parking charges is people are going elsewhere.
I suppose the weather has had an effect on visitor numbers, but the parking charges have certainly exacerbated the decline.
Saltdean Resident
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2:48pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Phani Tikkala
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2:49pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Nuff said.
Can't we "recall" the greens and chuck them out, like they can with politicians in the US?
mrtricky
says...
2:56pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Ballroom Blitz wrote:I support the idea that for many folks, train tickets, especially if able to book in advance online does appear a cheaper, more relaxing mode of travel. However, for a family bringing bags and other items for their day, the car seems more practical, even if expenses are higher.
leobrighton wrote:And how would say. a family of four justify the extortionate railway ticket prices? Get real. For families visiting the car is the only viable option.
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
Bubs
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3:00pm Wed 15 Aug 12
greenhousedani
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3:14pm Wed 15 Aug 12
I do understand that some people need to drive to Brighton, if they don't have a sensible public transport option. But surely they don't all need to park on the seafront? Parking charges across the whole city have only increased by about 5% and some even went down.
cwaig_g
says...
3:14pm Wed 15 Aug 12
leobrighton wrote:Very sensible. We certainly don't want anyone coming any distance to visit Brighton do we? No stopping in hotels, or anything like that.
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
Have you actually looked at the cost of the trains? When my family come down to visit us in Brighton (which they do several times a year), off peak train tickets (pre-booked) would cost over £300. Comparing that to a tank of petrol (£70) and them all piling into one car, the train option is a nonsense.
For a family of 4, even getting a train from *LEWES* would be more expensive than using the car.
Brighton is a *holiday resort*. Individuals don't generally come to holiday resorts alone, they come in family/friend groups - and train is a massively expensive option. Especially as most of the country don't live an easy 5 minute stroll from a train station, and so would have to use their cars anyway to *get to the station*.
Honestly, you lentil-flavoured-san
dle wearing eco-hippies need to get out more - the public transport ideal has always been little more than a pipedream of the city dwellers who've never tried to live out there in the howling wilderness populated by face eating vampire ghosts (also known as "the rest of the country").
lustrell
says...
3:27pm Wed 15 Aug 12
They went into town once, thats once in seven days. They aren't rich but they aren't poor either, they just felt that the cost of parking in Brighton was a total RIP OFF. You will be pleased to hear though that they quite liked Lewes and Eastbourne.
Brighton City Council are a joke and a short sighted joke at that.
RickH
says...
3:30pm Wed 15 Aug 12
John Keenan wrote:My, touched a raw nerve there did we? I think it would be more accurate to state that you cite a single statistical data set ie the spreadsheet to which you draw attention. Now, would you like to comment on the difference between correlation and causation when using statistics? ie your story tries to indicate that there is the latter but relying on heavily anecdotal evidence and the lack of proper statistical analysis in order to indicate the former. Indeed, the data set you cite only indicates changes over 2011 to 2012 ie a single year. In statistcal terms, its meaningless ie you cannot state causation based on that single data set and (in your own words) pretty sloppy. If someone in my charge tried to get policy decisions made or changed based on such sloppy evidence, I'd have sent them away with a flea in their ear and told to do the analysis again. Finally, at no point did I state that the reporting was sloppy - just, in my view, carrying on the same view of heavily anti-Council (and anti-Green) reporting that seems to dominate this publication of late. Hopefully that explanation shows why my comment wasn't half-baked and shows, in all fairness, why the use of the statistics to support your article, quite frankly, is! You have a good day now!
RickH and The Heretic No the Argus has not cited a simple statistic. The Excel spread sheet linked at the bottom of the news story gives the figures in full. Nor did I get a 'rent a quote' statement. I quoted the council and I quoted a number of traders. It is not 'sloppy' reporting that is regrettably pervasive; it is half-baked comments.
Hoarder12345444
says...
3:34pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fight Back wrote:Yep agree its blatant and the council and living in denial.
She said: “We don’t believe car parking charges have had a significant effect on visitor numbers as the council raises fees in April every year and this has never previously affected the figures.” What an idiotic comparison to make. It's the AMOUNT of increase that has stopped visitors - a much higher increase than EVER before. I know plenty of people, myself included, who no longer visit the city centre due to the parking charges. If this is replicated to out of town visitors then clearly the council are sticking their head in the sand. Time for the Greens to go.
MegA69
says...
3:34pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fight Back
says...
3:41pm Wed 15 Aug 12
RickH wrote:It's rather comical accusing the local paper of not using statistics properly when the Green council have an inability to do so as well. I'm rather surprised they haven't put the drop in visitors down to an administration error !
John Keenan wrote:My, touched a raw nerve there did we? I think it would be more accurate to state that you cite a single statistical data set ie the spreadsheet to which you draw attention. Now, would you like to comment on the difference between correlation and causation when using statistics? ie your story tries to indicate that there is the latter but relying on heavily anecdotal evidence and the lack of proper statistical analysis in order to indicate the former. Indeed, the data set you cite only indicates changes over 2011 to 2012 ie a single year. In statistcal terms, its meaningless ie you cannot state causation based on that single data set and (in your own words) pretty sloppy. If someone in my charge tried to get policy decisions made or changed based on such sloppy evidence, I'd have sent them away with a flea in their ear and told to do the analysis again. Finally, at no point did I state that the reporting was sloppy - just, in my view, carrying on the same view of heavily anti-Council (and anti-Green) reporting that seems to dominate this publication of late. Hopefully that explanation shows why my comment wasn't half-baked and shows, in all fairness, why the use of the statistics to support your article, quite frankly, is! You have a good day now!
RickH and The Heretic No the Argus has not cited a simple statistic. The Excel spread sheet linked at the bottom of the news story gives the figures in full. Nor did I get a 'rent a quote' statement. I quoted the council and I quoted a number of traders. It is not 'sloppy' reporting that is regrettably pervasive; it is half-baked comments.
Hoarder12345444
says...
3:46pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:Oh you complete loon, what sort relaity do you live in honestly?
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
RickH
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3:52pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fight Back wrote:I think what my original post stated the view that this article, in line with several others since the election of the current council, have made tenuous and unproven links between poorly interpreted stats & anecdotal evidence to create a story that undermines same Council regarding their parking charges policy. My second post explains to the author of the article why I am of that view after he accused me of making ‘half baked’ comments (surely one way to ensure that a publication loses readers is to insult them!) ie why it is incorrect to use the statistical analysis that they have applied for this article. You may find it comical but I find it somewhat sinister that the Argus continues in this vein and really shows that it and its editorial staff aren’t a politically neutral as they purport to be. I would also take the Council to take over such behaviour should the oppurtunity arise; I didn't vote for them nor am I likely to!!
RickH wrote:It's rather comical accusing the local paper of not using statistics properly when the Green council have an inability to do so as well. I'm rather surprised they haven't put the drop in visitors down to an administration error !John Keenan wrote: RickH and The Heretic No the Argus has not cited a simple statistic. The Excel spread sheet linked at the bottom of the news story gives the figures in full. Nor did I get a 'rent a quote' statement. I quoted the council and I quoted a number of traders. It is not 'sloppy' reporting that is regrettably pervasive; it is half-baked comments.My, touched a raw nerve there did we? I think it would be more accurate to state that you cite a single statistical data set ie the spreadsheet to which you draw attention. Now, would you like to comment on the difference between correlation and causation when using statistics? ie your story tries to indicate that there is the latter but relying on heavily anecdotal evidence and the lack of proper statistical analysis in order to indicate the former. Indeed, the data set you cite only indicates changes over 2011 to 2012 ie a single year. In statistcal terms, its meaningless ie you cannot state causation based on that single data set and (in your own words) pretty sloppy. If someone in my charge tried to get policy decisions made or changed based on such sloppy evidence, I'd have sent them away with a flea in their ear and told to do the analysis again. Finally, at no point did I state that the reporting was sloppy - just, in my view, carrying on the same view of heavily anti-Council (and anti-Green) reporting that seems to dominate this publication of late. Hopefully that explanation shows why my comment wasn't half-baked and shows, in all fairness, why the use of the statistics to support your article, quite frankly, is! You have a good day now!
westpiergone
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3:52pm Wed 15 Aug 12
MarkBrighton
says...
4:02pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:Dont forget the Greens also wanted to put up allotment charges by 70% as well... is that standing up for the enviroment, wildlife and our lungs?
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
Athena
says...
4:15pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes
says...
4:46pm Wed 15 Aug 12
ripmaxman wrote:And maybe you should consider sum people arnt so fortunate as to afford cars. About time there was a redistribution of wealth away from the oil guzlers to those of us who actually care about the futer of the planet...
Fairfax Sakes wrote:May I suggest that you move elsewhere preferably another planet as that’s where you would be happy.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
I drive because I have no other option and you are most probably one of those cyclists that think they own the pavement and don’t have to take any notice of road signs or traffic lights.
The Heretic
says...
4:49pm Wed 15 Aug 12
John Keenan wrote:Then why the complete absence of any information from resorts elsewhere Mr Keenan? Surely a comparison would give a clearer picture?
RickH and The Heretic
No the Argus has not cited a simple statistic. The Excel spread sheet linked at the bottom of the news story gives the figures in full. Nor did I get a 'rent a quote' statement. I quoted the council and I quoted a number of traders. It is not 'sloppy' reporting that is regrettably pervasive; it is half-baked comments.
There is plenty of evidence, Olympic factors aside, to suggest that visitor numbers are suffering across the board, and that this is not unique to Brighton & Hove.
I don't doubt you've reported accurately as far as it goes, and the views of traders quoted actually do echo many conversations I've had. My issue is more with what hasn't been said and that that your article treats the city in isolation, giving the distinct impression that we are the only place where trade is suffering to the extent which it clearly is.
The specific charge of abuse of statistical data in this instance I levelled very clearly at another article (albeit with local relevance) and I stand by my view that an incomplete picture can distort the way an issue is perceived, the commonality in this case being in the lack of valid comparisons.
As for an agenda, the charge, aimed at the news output in general, is hardly unique to the Argus and would be more easily refuted had it not been for the paper's track record of obsequious deference to the sometime Labour administration's dictat on so many issues.
I trust my comments are now baked to your satisfaction.
Fight Back
says...
4:55pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:So your issue is actually people having more money than you ? Nice argument !
ripmaxman wrote:And maybe you should consider sum people arnt so fortunate as to afford cars. About time there was a redistribution of wealth away from the oil guzlers to those of us who actually care about the futer of the planet...
Fairfax Sakes wrote:May I suggest that you move elsewhere preferably another planet as that’s where you would be happy.
The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.
I drive because I have no other option and you are most probably one of those cyclists that think they own the pavement and don’t have to take any notice of road signs or traffic lights.
uniteagainstparkingcharges
says...
5:22pm Wed 15 Aug 12
As a former Green Party member and supporter, their inability to react in the face of heavy criticism from the local community made me question whether I wanted to be involved any longed. They have proved already in this short-term that they are just like the other parties and simply not to be trusted.
I deeply care about green issues and voted for them as I felt that they deserved a chance to prove that they could offer a real alternative.
Whilst promoting other greener transport alternatives is desirable and I fully support of the extra safer cycle lanes. Waging war against visiting tourist motorists is complete madness.
First there is no viable alternative for many tourists. Those living in rural areas or those not connected to current public transport routes have little choice but to use cars to transport themselves and their families. Parking charges will mean people do not return to Brighton and having lived near seaside towns such as Margate and Herne Bay - I know first hand that lack of tourism can kill a town's economy and it's reputation for good. This process does not take long and once popular tourist towns can quickly become derelict and undesirable.
I have many anecdotal examples of friends visiting Brighton and being absolutely horrified at the charges and it is clear from the comments that others have had other identical experiences. These visitors reaction was not one of "oh next time i'll be sure to use the brilliant public transport" but instead "I won't be coming here again"
Unlike the Green Party in office, I am able to realise an error of judgement and act on it. I did so by cancelling my membership (although they still send me paper in the post regularly- not very green!!!).
Perhaps the Greens could prove they are different to the other parties and actually reverse a decision based on real concern from the community that voted them in.
onedaytheleftwillburn
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5:43pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Old Ladys Gin
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5:45pm Wed 15 Aug 12
We could have counted the amount of other vehicles we saw.
People haven't got the money and are watching what they have - simples.
Lostandaway
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6:00pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Brighton has never been car friendly. In the 60's it was never easy to travel around the town and by that I mean the centre. If you include the out lying areas then indeed you could travel as you can now.
In my youth most people that fed the beach areas and the centre came in on the weekend trains or came in by bus ( people did not have cars).
Driving in to Brighton may be the problem for car owners and families. The roads alongside parks(London road, Lewes etc) should be a pleasant experience but it's not. There is often a temporary campsite with rubbish everywhere.
When you get into the town it then becomes difficult to find a parking palce, so why bother. Meters are usually geared to take the odd coinage which you don't have and no cahnge is given. Thus parking is nothing more than a "cash cow" for the councils. See that on all the beauty spots in the area.The charges are covered with the usual caveat that they are needed for the maintenance of the site.
If a day at the beach is all you nbeed then there are much better palces.
Small businesses should be canvassed for their opinions of footfall numbers and the business opportunity.
I don't think the bus costs are that excessive, if you don't need to travel in peak times.
Why bother, go to Hove while you still can.
ShorehamBeachcomber
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6:01pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Spx
says...
6:32pm Wed 15 Aug 12
calro75
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6:41pm Wed 15 Aug 12
calro75
says...
6:41pm Wed 15 Aug 12
skippy981
says...
6:55pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Do bears sh*t in the woods, would be a better question. Of course the new increased parking charges are to blame I for one will not visit Brighton until they are reduced.
Sadly it seems the council will bury it's head in the sound and blame lot's of other things but the hike in car parking charges.
turtling.
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6:58pm Wed 15 Aug 12
That's a useful thing to know about in the present economic circumstances.
About as useful as a condom for an impotent geriatric.
rustybn3
says...
7:05pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Pitviper wrote:I rarely go into brighton city centre now, as the Parking Charges are to high,
Of course it's the parking charges, my friends no longer visit Brighton because of them, prefering to go elsewhere where the parking is a lot less expensive!!!
I spend my hard earned income else where ie Worthing
wole
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7:07pm Wed 15 Aug 12
It is obvious people do not come to Brighton as the parking prices are far too high. Greens and Kitkat out!!!
Idontbelieveit1948
says...
7:10pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Seems it's working then.
Of course the result will be a city centre devoid of anything but sandal wearing bearded weirdos and Green Councillors - not sure this is what even they intended.
rustybn3
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7:13pm Wed 15 Aug 12
bogs
says...
7:34pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Valerie Paynter
says...
7:36pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fare's Fair!
mimseycal
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7:44pm Wed 15 Aug 12
And what do you think taxis and buses produce? Attar of roses?
bogs
says...
7:54pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Valerie Paynter wrote:Are you thick? Derv is much worse than petrol. What do all taxis and buses run on? Derv............Stan
Air quality in this city is lethal. We HAVE to reduce car use. We also need to make taxis and public transport cheaper at the same time as putting up parking charges to equal things out a bit. Fare's Fair!
d at a bus stop or taxi rank and enjoy the fresh clean air!!!!!!!!!Then stand at traffic lights with cars waiting.......No further questions your Honour!
Lostandaway
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8:03pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Is it high enough off the ground to go over the kerbs in car parks like a proper Jeep?.
Fight Back
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8:06pm Wed 15 Aug 12
rustybn3 wrote:I really don't care if it's a Labour council or a Tory council - either would be better than this shower.
Lets hope we get a Labour council back into office, and chuck these Green wallas out ASAP
keswick
says...
8:26pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Thumper Hove wrote:Please do not call Kitkat an idiot, that is an insult to an idiot. The sooner the Greens are gone the better, hope they enjoy their three and only years in power.
Kitekat is a complete idiot - I do wonder what his IQ is. Of course extortionate parking fees are putting off people coming to Brighton - we had worse weather last year so stop trying to blame that for the fall.. To suggest that visitors will still come but opt for buses and (expensive trains) instead of cars is utter madness and shows how incompetent the Greens are at showing common sense. Car drivers will simply go to other seaside towns/cities instead and they are already doing this - for example Eastbourne has seen an increase this year. I cannot wait for the next local elections, the Greens need to be kicked out as they are not in touch with the city's residents and are destroying our wonderful city. Sadly it will take years to undo the mess they are creating (visitors shoved away will take a long time to tempt back here).
High Wire
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8:27pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Let me know if you need a hand to change the payback period on your spreadsheet... Oh look... never ! ;-)
mandi26
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8:30pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fight Back
says...
8:42pm Wed 15 Aug 12
mandi26 wrote:Indeed, well done. Bet Kitcat would never do that. Strange how Labour and Tory councillors have the guts to comment on Argus stories but Kitcat and his crew never do. Yet Kitcat has time to spew out his egotistical bile on Twitter ?
Well done to Eastbourne council this pass weekend who suspended parking charges on the seafront in support of the Airshow.
Morpheus
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8:52pm Wed 15 Aug 12
mimseycal
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8:54pm Wed 15 Aug 12
bha1901
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9:12pm Wed 15 Aug 12
HJarrs
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9:19pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Before I lived in Brighton I seldom visited by car because the traffic put me off, not the price of parking. Queuing an hour or more to get into, then out of Brighton sucks.
Sadly, some of you would not be happy till most of the city had been flattened to allow a motorway to the seafront and vast free car parks.
mimseycal
says...
9:59pm Wed 15 Aug 12
HJarrs wrote:Some maybe HJarrs, most ... nah. Most of us that do drive would prefer a fair and equitable deal. We would also prefer a road system that allows for traffic flow rather than a stop-start, hop-skip creep through.
I am sure that some people have been put off by the parking charges, which I do think are a bit too high and inflexible but I bet they are a minority. Saturday I was down the front and it was rammed, yet by the way the petrol heads go on you would think that B&H is a ghost town.
Before I lived in Brighton I seldom visited by car because the traffic put me off, not the price of parking. Queuing an hour or more to get into, then out of Brighton sucks.
Sadly, some of you would not be happy till most of the city had been flattened to allow a motorway to the seafront and vast free car parks.
Like it or not, this is the 21st century and the car is an inescapable part of the deal.
I could never have worked full time, ensured that my children of varying ages all attending different schools got to school on time, do my weekly shop on the Saturday and still find time to kick a ball around the park with the kids, or take the family on a picnic and the kids to their various extra-curricula interests, football/gymnastics/
running/swimming as a single parent if it had not been for my car.
Or maybe I should just have sat at home, left the kids to amuse themselves as best they could and raked in the benefits?
NickBrt
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10:17pm Wed 15 Aug 12
NickBrt
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10:22pm Wed 15 Aug 12
dan king
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10:28pm Wed 15 Aug 12
davyboy
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10:37pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
10:38pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Also Hjarrs lives in the city centre and is not a true local so does not understand how real Brighton people live or want to live. He just wants to create a dream which isn't representative of local desire.
Most people don't live in Hanover like HJarrs, most don't work flexi-time banging out articles for eco magazines and wandering about the Open Houses sipping warm wine in the Fringe Festival tents, most people actually work in low paid jobs living on the outskirts trying to juggle working full time with doing shopping, getting kids to school on the other side of town because we can't get our kids into our nearest schools etc.
Until outsiders who settle here really get to understand what local people are like instead of coming here with their dreamy ideas that Brighton is like Bath or York, which has more wealth and less deprivation, the better.
HJarrs, B&H is unusual in that it is a city in the most wealthy area of the UK, but it actually has poor educational standards, poor health provision and health stats, low salaries, poor housing stock and has two areas of Govt recognised deprivation.
Perhaps you should move to Bath or York or maybe Hay on Wye.
This town is full of bingo loving, drivers who like a good carvery on a Sunday and a holiday in Spain not people who want to ride bikes, insulate their homes with the latest thermal wrap.
Remember, we have the lowest level of recycling in the UK because the residents are not interested Hjarrs and you are going to bitterly disappointed by us.
Telscombe Cliffy
says...
10:44pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fight Back wrote:For your information, I live near Bournemouth-here are the beach parking charges. 6 feet from a safe sandy beach with unpolluted water. The down side is terrible shopping and no culture.
leobrighton wrote:With three children I'll not be dragging all the bits and bobs needed for a day out on the train thank you. I'll just go to Worthing, Eastbourne, Littlehampton or Bournemouth who do welcome visitors with cars. Clearly I'm not the only one to take my money elsewhere. The Greens can preach about using the trains or buses as much as they like - I, and many others, will ignore them and visit places that do want tourists.
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
Undercliff Drive car park tariff 2012:
30th March - 29th June:
Pay and Display: £1.10 per hour
30 June - 2nd September - Fixed Fee pay on entry:
Arrive before 12 noon: £11.00
Arrive between 12 noon - 4pm: £7.50
Arrive after 4pm: £4.00
Arrive after 6pm: £2.50
3rd September - 28th October:
Pay and Display: £1.10 per hour
29th October - 28th March 2013:
Pay and Display: 60p per hour
(lifted from the council site)(Conservative)
If I visit Brighton I always use the Marina, or park just north of LondonRd Station. The free areas seem to have got further and further away from the centre of town over the years. I never use the A23 , Ditchling road is always the least congested access to your fine City.
george smith
says...
10:44pm Wed 15 Aug 12
Fercri Sakes wrote:Wasn't this council that during the olympics when asked by a TV if tourism was down, replied no everthing was thriving
Forget the anti-Green naysayers here it's all to do with the weather and the recession. Plus due to the mobile web people are able to access information on the go, rather than go to the visitors centre. Lovely to see that so far 57% of respondents are so short-sighted that they think a few quid added on to a parking fare is detering large numbers of people from visiting the city. Can we blame the parking prices on the lack of cricket in Hove this year too? **** those Greens :)
mimseycal
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10:46pm Wed 15 Aug 12
NickBrt wrote:Nah, she doesn't hate them. God wouldn't like it. She just doesn't want them to have equal rights to marriage because that is, according to her, a purely Christian institution for the procreation of children.
Maybe gay people don't park here any more after that green gay hating councillor showed her true colours.
Athena
says...
12:02am Thu 16 Aug 12
Valerie Paynter wrote:Air quality in Athens used to be so lethal, 20 years ago, that made your lips sting and you could see it in a yellow haze all over the city. I see no yellow haze in Brighton. Neither do my lips sting. The Greens overplay their card to justify themselves.
Air quality in this city is lethal. We HAVE to reduce car use. We also need to make taxis and public transport cheaper at the same time as putting up parking charges to equal things out a bit.
Fare's Fair!
PorkBoat
says...
1:37am Thu 16 Aug 12
bogs wrote:Me neither, but yes, anything that keeps poor people away from Brighton is fine by me. Why not go one step further, and introduce an entrance fee, set it really high so the plebs can't get in? Anyone who looks poor can be turfed out and dropped by the roadside past The Pylons. Even if they've come from Plymouth or somewhere poor like that. Sure, some locals may get swept up in the process, but London Road will be a joy to visit.
Keep the stupid high parking charges. I can drive my V8 Jeep along the seafront from Hove in a few minutes now, even with the road dug up outside the Regency! The town is dead long live the town! Best thing the Greens have even done! Price poor people out of Brighton and Hove. I can't believe its happened but it has.Never vote for them but the idiots have made my summer! On yer bike!
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
6:59am Thu 16 Aug 12
Perhaps that's what HJarrs and his
Posh green mates want. Regency Eco middle class splendour.
Out with locals and in with the arty types who dabble in freelance work and have quaint street parties in car free roads, although who wil they call when they need a plumber or cleaner and who will ride the giant fair ground attractions in the city such as the wheel and the eyesore360.
We are not Bath or York. We are studenty, drunken, non recycling, car driving Brighton and Hove with ropey old schools, some Harvesters, a few bingo halls and a dog track. We haven't even pedestrianised New Road or Jubilee Street because the locals love their cars and start petitions when their cars rights are under threat.
Go to some Green wards like Preston Park. Full of massive cars and 4x4s.
frida_3
says...
7:25am Thu 16 Aug 12
At all costs we need to discourage cars into the Centre of Brighton only public transport should be priority. Pedestrianise more of the centre and make people use a park and ride scheme!
fab5482
says...
7:46am Thu 16 Aug 12
Phani Tikkala wrote:Nice idea, I like it, chucking Greens out pronto. Greens don't seem to like visitors, or even the people living here. I was one of the stupid people who voted for them (never again), thinking they would make a difference.
I made the expensive mistake of parking on the seafront with some visitors from Wales yesterday. The queue at the ticket machine consisted of several people, each of whom when they got to the front of the queue and saw the charges, said (I paraphrase) "Jesus, look at the costs" (as they fumbled for £10 in change to pay for 4 hours) "we won't be coming back here again".
Nuff said.
Can't we "recall" the greens and chuck them out, like they can with politicians in the US?
MrSlaw
says...
8:24am Thu 16 Aug 12
Phani Tikkala wrote:With close links to Netmums, I thought Jason Kitcat would appreciate that the real losers of the April parking charge hike is the young growing families, for who a quick trip to the Brighton seafront by bus is not practical and by car now not financially viable.
Taxi for Kitcat
Instead of accelerating people to look for alternative ways into the city, the reality is that young family's are accelerating out of the city in their cars and taking their significant trade with them.
The Heretic
says...
10:23am Thu 16 Aug 12
frida_3 wrote:To be a viable alternative to cars, public transport needs to be:
We need to look at alternative transport methods inside Brighton that is more attractive for both commuter and tourist. The bus service is at saturation point and over crowded. if we can we need to look underground like London. Brighton is built on the same clay structure as London and tunnels could be sunk. Otherwise bring in a Tram system.
At all costs we need to discourage cars into the Centre of Brighton only public transport should be priority. Pedestrianise more of the centre and make people use a park and ride scheme!
a) in existence - B&H is one of the better cities in this regard
b) accessible - meaning it needs to: go where the punters want to be to do so at a price attractive to said punters
have sensible ticketing arrangements
The ticketing thing is horribly complicated for visitors. True, there are excellent options for regular users, and Plus Bus for those visiting by train (or rail replacement bus, as the case may be), but what actually exists for the motorist visiting with the family? Having queued in traffic on the A23/A27/A259/A270 for yonks, then there's the queue for the car park. If rail passengers can get a 'through' ticket, why can't motorists get one with the car park ticket? Thanks to the late Ernie Marples' masterplan, not everyone has reasonable access to the railway, though if the BML2 scheme does get adopted, it would improve matters for very many, passengers and businesses alike.
As to longer term solutions, whilst there is some clay (and marle) substrate, I'm pretty sure I've seen the odd bit of chalk down there too!
There is some merit in the idea of tunnelling to the sea front to sort out north-south congestion, but this can only work if the east-west traffic is addressed at as part of the same process. The idea of 'burying' the A259 coast road has been mooted more than once. There was also once a proposal to run the A259 out to sea on a bridge ! The tunnelling options would be prohibitively expensive, plus a north-south tunnel would obviously benefit only sea front trade and, without improving matters for most local road users, probably wouldn't get much support from the electorate. Then there's the question - where would the tunnel come out? Would we have half a dozen big car parks? Build an artificial island to put cars on?
A tram network has been suggested, but I honestly don't think it could offer the flexibility needed to provide robust reliable services. Maybe guided busways for electric vehicles which could operate on battery power 'off the grid' - not quite your traditional trolleybuses as I'm sure the overhead clutter would be unacceptable to people, but technically possible by adapting the longer bus lanes into the centre. How PSV's from out of town could benefit, I don't yet know, but a solution should be possible.
One thing IS certain, and that's that we need to start thinking about SOLUTIONS, that's B&HCC, ESCC, WSCC, bus and train operators, the public - that's US lot, people! , businesses and pressure groups.
Sitting back and waiting for 'someone else' to come up with anything clearly isn't working too well, and griping away on forums like this (however justified the particular issue in question) may highlight problems, but does little to addrerss the overall problems of our city's transport problems.
Thoughts, folks?
Area52
says...
12:03pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes
says...
12:12pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:Incorrect MG- YOU are those things (Bingo halls? More like Bingo-wings for you laddy buck). Bit of jealousy at those more affluent/healthy/edu
Rather like Bath and York where the poor have been slowly pushed out leaving the cities full of 4x4 fox hunting types.
Perhaps that's what HJarrs and his
Posh green mates want. Regency Eco middle class splendour.
Out with locals and in with the arty types who dabble in freelance work and have quaint street parties in car free roads, although who wil they call when they need a plumber or cleaner and who will ride the giant fair ground attractions in the city such as the wheel and the eyesore360.
We are not Bath or York. We are studenty, drunken, non recycling, car driving Brighton and Hove with ropey old schools, some Harvesters, a few bingo halls and a dog track. We haven't even pedestrianised New Road or Jubilee Street because the locals love their cars and start petitions when their cars rights are under threat.
Go to some Green wards like Preston Park. Full of massive cars and 4x4s.
cated than you? Un-lucky. I quite like the "arty freelance" types which make Brighton such a quaint place to live. Correct me if I'm wrong but thats our Green party came to power. Sorry if you don't like democracy. What's your BNP friends policy on sustainable transport by the way?
And FYI, 4x4's are rather passe these days-I exchanged mine for a hybrid covertable last season.
blacktopsoldier
says...
12:58pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
1:43pm Thu 16 Aug 12
That says a lot about the Green sbobbery I have been talking about. What a vile little snob you are and yes, you would fit right inot Bath and York.
I actually am a higher tax bracket earner with a good education, however, I also enjoy dog racing, bingo and I don't mind a good carvery and am local.
However, only an outsider like you would think that the poor and poorly educated enjoy the things us local folk enjoy and of course, the poor local B&H folk therefore, must be BNP voters.
You really do sum up outsiders with the misguided view that local people want your eco nonsense.
Move to Richmond.
Hoarder12345444
says...
1:51pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:Hybrid convertible.oooooooo
Maxwell's Ghost wrote: Rather like Bath and York where the poor have been slowly pushed out leaving the cities full of 4x4 fox hunting types. Perhaps that's what HJarrs and his Posh green mates want. Regency Eco middle class splendour. Out with locals and in with the arty types who dabble in freelance work and have quaint street parties in car free roads, although who wil they call when they need a plumber or cleaner and who will ride the giant fair ground attractions in the city such as the wheel and the eyesore360. We are not Bath or York. We are studenty, drunken, non recycling, car driving Brighton and Hove with ropey old schools, some Harvesters, a few bingo halls and a dog track. We haven't even pedestrianised New Road or Jubilee Street because the locals love their cars and start petitions when their cars rights are under threat. Go to some Green wards like Preston Park. Full of massive cars and 4x4s.Incorrect MG- YOU are those things (Bingo halls? More like Bingo-wings for you laddy buck). Bit of jealousy at those more affluent/healthy/edu cated than you? Un-lucky. I quite like the "arty freelance" types which make Brighton such a quaint place to live. Correct me if I'm wrong but thats our Green party came to power. Sorry if you don't like democracy. What's your BNP friends policy on sustainable transport by the way? And FYI, 4x4's are rather passe these days-I exchanged mine for a hybrid covertable last season.
oo nice pal yeahhhhhhhhh. i bet that gets a few heads turning.
Lewesroadresident
says...
1:52pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Hoarder12345444
says...
2:01pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:Yeah nice post there pal. Agree with you there. Brighton and Hove is a predominantly working class city, we dont like snobs here.
Fairfax Sakes, how dare you state that I am a BNP supporter just because you think I am poor. That says a lot about the Green sbobbery I have been talking about. What a vile little snob you are and yes, you would fit right inot Bath and York. I actually am a higher tax bracket earner with a good education, however, I also enjoy dog racing, bingo and I don't mind a good carvery and am local. However, only an outsider like you would think that the poor and poorly educated enjoy the things us local folk enjoy and of course, the poor local B&H folk therefore, must be BNP voters. You really do sum up outsiders with the misguided view that local people want your eco nonsense. Move to Richmond.
mimseycal
says...
2:05pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
says...
2:14pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit
says...
2:30pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Area52 wrote:LOL! Also if the poor people don't come into Brighton then we won't need all those ghastly cheap chain stores and restaurants that are turning Brighton into a clone town. Then we can have loads of expensive, quaint, arty little boutiques and bistros run by and for the affluent, usually childless but oh-so-socially aware Green middle class.
The Green's are to be commended for their enlightened application of extortionate car parking charges. Now all the poor people have to park elsewhere, there is plenty of room along Madeira Drive to park my Aston Martin DB9! Now that's what I call positive social engineering.Jolly Well Done Greens!!
Hurrah for anti-working class bigots!
timmys1981
says...
2:43pm Thu 16 Aug 12
leobrighton wrote:"Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay."
Encourage visitors to come by train instead. They will avoid the jams, save money and enjoy it more. There is just no need for visitors to come by car and those who insist should pay.
So when those rail fare increases hit will you still be taking the train?
Very pointless trying to price people out of their cars, the government has been trying to do that for years without success. What is better than being able to jump in the car and go where you want when you want. I for one would avoid public transport like the plague
timmys1981
says...
2:46pm Thu 16 Aug 12
fab5482 wrote:At least you admit its stupid to vote green. Surely sane people could see in advance they would attack the local economy for their own stupid political gain rather than help local people and visitors. A worthless party with worthless and unworkable policies. Anyway wont last long the greens will be moving out soon...
Phani Tikkala wrote:Nice idea, I like it, chucking Greens out pronto. Greens don't seem to like visitors, or even the people living here. I was one of the stupid people who voted for them (never again), thinking they would make a difference.
I made the expensive mistake of parking on the seafront with some visitors from Wales yesterday. The queue at the ticket machine consisted of several people, each of whom when they got to the front of the queue and saw the charges, said (I paraphrase) "Jesus, look at the costs" (as they fumbled for £10 in change to pay for 4 hours) "we won't be coming back here again".
Nuff said.
Can't we "recall" the greens and chuck them out, like they can with politicians in the US?
timmys1981
says...
2:47pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Pitviper wrote:More and more of a ghost town every summer.
Of course it's the parking charges, my friends no longer visit Brighton because of them, prefering to go elsewhere where the parking is a lot less expensive!!!
timmys1981
says...
2:47pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Pitviper wrote:More and more of a ghost town every summer.
Of course it's the parking charges, my friends no longer visit Brighton because of them, prefering to go elsewhere where the parking is a lot less expensive!!!
timmys1981
says...
2:49pm Thu 16 Aug 12
pjwilk wrote:(un)funny thing is they probably spend most of the extra gained on reverting the seafront back to £10 instead of £20. Still a big rip off whatever it is...
High parking charges are a big reason for lack of visitors and what does the Council do with the money,they waste it same as the Government waste our tax money,time we cut their salaries and numbers,what do they do for us apart from invent ways of getting more money out of us or fining us because dustbin lids are not fully closed.
timmys1981
says...
2:51pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Fercri Sakes wrote:**** off you green party stooge. And cut your hair and have a wash too...
Forget the anti-Green naysayers here it's all to do with the weather and the recession. Plus due to the mobile web people are able to access information on the go, rather than go to the visitors centre.
Lovely to see that so far 57% of respondents are so short-sighted that they think a few quid added on to a parking fare is detering large numbers of people from visiting the city.
Can we blame the parking prices on the lack of cricket in Hove this year too? **** those Greens :)
ripmaxman
says...
3:45pm Thu 16 Aug 12
Fairfax Sakes wrote:My car is not a 4 x4 gas guzzler and has low emissions. And the reason I can afford a car is because I WORKED for it unlike the free loaders in Brighton that think the world owes them something while sitting on their backsides!!
ripmaxman wrote:And maybe you should consider sum people arnt so fortunate as to afford cars. About time there was a redistribution of wealth away from the oil guzlers to those of us who actually care about the futer of the planet...Fairfax Sakes wrote: The Green party should be commended for having the guts to stand up to the facist motor lobby and their petrol head cronies. The environment, wildlife and our lungs deserve as much. Don't like parking charges? STOP DRIVING! There are plenty of cycle lanes for this very reason. Otherwise suck it up and shut up.May I suggest that you move elsewhere preferably another planet as that’s where you would be happy. I drive because I have no other option and you are most probably one of those cyclists that think they own the pavement and don’t have to take any notice of road signs or traffic lights.
I have worked all my life and when I was made redundant I didn’t claim off the state I got a job as a private taxi driver.
Try earning your own money!
Your idea of wealth distribution sounds like you are a communist, if you are then go and live in North Korea and see how fair they distribute wealth
Joshiman
says...
4:39pm Thu 16 Aug 12
shops/takeaways are already suffering.Personally I would make Brighton a car friendly city.Free parking at weekends.Sort out the traffic lights.
Maxwell's Ghost
says...
4:53pm Thu 16 Aug 12
It's a kind of posh ethinic cleansing which has been undertaken all over the UK by Londonder and outsiders going into communities and shoving local people out.
Well it isn't happening here.
sussexfoz
says...
5:49pm Thu 16 Aug 12
The Heretic wrote:I agree with this post,i didn't vote green and don't agree with a lot of there polices but this is getting so boring ,when i catch a bus into brighton city centre those traffic jams must be an illusion the buses im unable to get on must be a figment of my imagination brightons looking pretty full to me,and didn't i read tourism due to the olympics has decreased by 20% due to people not wanting to pay higher prices so if brighton has only been affected 10% we are doing jolly well weather considered as well
Lovely piece of autosuggestion regarding the poll. If the headline had read "maxwells ghost to blame for Brighton's missing visitors" (sorry mg!) I'd expect that the percentage jumping straight at parking as 'the' issue would be a sightly less!
I doubt doubling parking charges has helped one little bit. I recall the same arguments when on-street parking effectively ended in the centre of town (Anyne else remember John Vokins' one-man crusade?)
The weather for most of this 'summer' (dictionary definition-not mine) has been pretty atrocious, and though I'm sure someone will blame the current incumbents at the Town Hall, I'm certain that there were equally dire summers under other parties' rule in previous years.
So, how's Littlehampton doing during the same period, how about Eastbourne or the Isle of Wight? Without something to compare the Brighton & Hove visitor numbers with, this article only serves conjecture, finger pointing and name calling. All jolly good fun, but abjectly fails to do what it pretends to, i.e identify a reason for the lack of punters.
Sloppy reporting? Someone with an axe to grind? Or a combination of both? Vote now!
Cyril Bolleaux
says...
7:11pm Thu 16 Aug 12
mimseycal wrote:Dear Moderator, why did you remove my response? Is this woman above criticism?
NickBrt wrote:Nah, she doesn't hate them. God wouldn't like it. She just doesn't want them to have equal rights to marriage because that is, according to her, a purely Christian institution for the procreation of children.
Maybe gay people don't park here any more after that green gay hating councillor showed her true colours.
sussexfoz
says...
8:52pm Thu 16 Aug 12
reeter
says...
6:13am Fri 17 Aug 12
fab5482
says...
6:22am Fri 17 Aug 12
reeter wrote:That's an idea. I've not been to Skegness.Have a good weekend lol.
I suggest you all save your parking fee's for a week. then you can afford to have a lovely weeks holiday in SKEGNESS. Lovely Place where tourists are wecomed.
StyleCop
says...
10:20am Fri 17 Aug 12
"Are parking charges to blame fro Brightons missing visitors?"
Am I missing something here...?
I'm fairly sure that whenever I've considered heading to other cities in the world/country i've NEVER considered the cost of parking... the only time it becomes an issue is when one gets to the destination. And I'm pretty sure that most people would park regardless of price if they've spent the time and effort to get here...?
Furthermore - I run the length of the seafront most days and asides from the days it's a bit grim - most of the spaces are full with new arrivals attempting to fill the gaps that appear...
So, in a word, NO... I can't imagine why parking charges would effect people entering the city - more likely to be weather, economy, that lack of interest in the visitors center - maybe even returning visitors who don't require visitor information?
FFS!
mimseycal
says...
7:27pm Fri 17 Aug 12
Idontbelieveit1948
says...
7:35pm Fri 17 Aug 12
StyleCop wrote:Twerp, they might come once but many don't stay when they see the charges and those that do will never return.
Getting back to the original question.
"Are parking charges to blame fro Brightons missing visitors?"
Am I missing something here...?
I'm fairly sure that whenever I've considered heading to other cities in the world/country i've NEVER considered the cost of parking... the only time it becomes an issue is when one gets to the destination. And I'm pretty sure that most people would park regardless of price if they've spent the time and effort to get here...?
Furthermore - I run the length of the seafront most days and asides from the days it's a bit grim - most of the spaces are full with new arrivals attempting to fill the gaps that appear...
So, in a word, NO... I can't imagine why parking charges would effect people entering the city - more likely to be weather, economy, that lack of interest in the visitors center - maybe even returning visitors who don't require visitor information?
FFS!
Went to Worthing yesterday parked for free and had a game of mini golf followed by tea and cakes all for less than the price of parking in Brighton.
Its not rocket science
StyleCop
says...
8:24pm Fri 17 Aug 12
Idontbelieveit1948 wrote:Cool. Well that's all cleared up then. :)
StyleCop wrote: Getting back to the original question. "Are parking charges to blame fro Brightons missing visitors?" Am I missing something here...? I'm fairly sure that whenever I've considered heading to other cities in the world/country i've NEVER considered the cost of parking... the only time it becomes an issue is when one gets to the destination. And I'm pretty sure that most people would park regardless of price if they've spent the time and effort to get here...? Furthermore - I run the length of the seafront most days and asides from the days it's a bit grim - most of the spaces are full with new arrivals attempting to fill the gaps that appear... So, in a word, NO... I can't imagine why parking charges would effect people entering the city - more likely to be weather, economy, that lack of interest in the visitors center - maybe even returning visitors who don't require visitor information? FFS!Twerp, they might come once but many don't stay when they see the charges and those that do will never return. Went to Worthing yesterday parked for free and had a game of mini golf followed by tea and cakes all for less than the price of parking in Brighton. Its not rocket science
Appreciate the insult too - that makes me feel so insignificant.
StyleCop
says...
8:43pm Fri 17 Aug 12
mimseycal wrote:Fairdoos.
It certainly however, even by your reasoning would effect any potential visitors returning to Brighton.
It still doesn't explain why all the spaces along the front from Hove Lagoon to Brighton Marina are being fought over on a Saturday afternoon when the suns out and blazing... and more puzzling that when the weather is lousy, there's plenty of spaces...
Maybe its just my imagining things, but the rocket scientist in me computes that poor weather = lack of interest in visiting the seaside and seeing that we've had such poor weather this summer I deduce a reduction of visitors could well be the result?
But seeing that I'm a twerp who clearly has no insight into such matters, despite living on the beach front and running the 5 miles length of the promenade daily from the lagoon to the marina, and having observed the daily, weekly, monthly and annual ebb and flow of visitors to the beach - what the Hell do I know?
@fletch2012
says...
9:52pm Fri 17 Aug 12
I cycle 99% of the time in Brighton and Hove, thankfully, but I was horrified at the hikes in parking charges and the impact it would clearly have on our retailers. Haven't they suffered enough?
Depsite my cycling I too have suffered from the parking fee hike, on a Friday evening every week when we take our Daughter to the Kind Alfred Centre to Shiverers swimming club. It amazes me that the council would think that a hike from ZERO to £2 at the King Alfred Leisure Centre on a Friday evening between 6pm and 8pm is acceptable. Aren't we supposed to be encouraging the young to be healthy and show some dedication to a sport or activity?
And then there's the Brighton Business Curry Club. Free parking on the seafront after 6pm throughout the first year I attended. I cycled pretty much every time, however the month the parking fees changed I had to drive and was absolutely horrified when the charge had been increased from ZERO to £6 between 6pm and 8pm. The Curry Club changed venue immediately to a venue with FREE parking and the Lansdowne Place Hotel lost out on something that had proven to be a complete success for them. To top it off the Seafront is pretty much empty these days and it certainly wasn't before. Are they all parking elsewhere or just not bothering coming in the first place. Who knows but it's pretty clear that the retailers know!
GREENS, You should be ashamed of yourselves for this money grabbing short sighted policy that has put this successful and popular city's future in jeopardy! Anyway, rant over and I'll look forward to seeing the back of the GREENS and the sensible parking policy that follows!
SteveHove
says...
1:51am Sat 18 Aug 12
StyleCop wrote:So stylecop firstly "Saturday afternoon when the suns out and blazing" are very few and far between..... i live on the seafront and can tell a completly different story the spaces are certainly not full....on hot days alot of spaces that are taken are by people sitting or playing etc on hove lawns or walking on the sea front but stay in veiw of their car and as the traffic warden (ask them this) walks along they go back and sit in the cars as they are now not prepared to pay the new over priced charges when they see them (i have witness this several times) so they dont end up moving away as before and dont go around the city or spending anything at all now,.... also i walked along the seafront yesterday and notice quite a few cars had blue badges in the windows so they were not paying and it is now easy parking...and about 6pm on any day you will find the parking along the seafront virtualy empty.... it not that people are not coming to Brighton and Hove its that THEY ARE NOT COMING BACK
mimseycal wrote:Fairdoos.
It certainly however, even by your reasoning would effect any potential visitors returning to Brighton.
It still doesn't explain why all the spaces along the front from Hove Lagoon to Brighton Marina are being fought over on a Saturday afternoon when the suns out and blazing... and more puzzling that when the weather is lousy, there's plenty of spaces...
Maybe its just my imagining things, but the rocket scientist in me computes that poor weather = lack of interest in visiting the seaside and seeing that we've had such poor weather this summer I deduce a reduction of visitors could well be the result?
But seeing that I'm a twerp who clearly has no insight into such matters, despite living on the beach front and running the 5 miles length of the promenade daily from the lagoon to the marina, and having observed the daily, weekly, monthly and annual ebb and flow of visitors to the beach - what the Hell do I know?
mimseycal
says...
5:53am Sat 18 Aug 12
StyleCop wrote:I didn't think it required explaining. As your previous post suggest, people will come to Brighton unprepared. Many will stay because after all that effort getting here, they will not turn back.
mimseycal wrote:Fairdoos.
It certainly however, even by your reasoning would effect any potential visitors returning to Brighton.
It still doesn't explain why all the spaces along the front from Hove Lagoon to Brighton Marina are being fought over on a Saturday afternoon when the suns out and blazing... and more puzzling that when the weather is lousy, there's plenty of spaces...
Maybe its just my imagining things, but the rocket scientist in me computes that poor weather = lack of interest in visiting the seaside and seeing that we've had such poor weather this summer I deduce a reduction of visitors could well be the result?
But seeing that I'm a twerp who clearly has no insight into such matters, despite living on the beach front and running the 5 miles length of the promenade daily from the lagoon to the marina, and having observed the daily, weekly, monthly and annual ebb and flow of visitors to the beach - what the Hell do I know?
They will not be back though and word will spread. And soon we will get to the stage where we do not get returning visitors and we will get fewer first time visitors.
Brighton's beach is nothing special. At the risk of stating the obvious, there are plenty of beaches along the coast. Some of those better maintained, cleaner and far more comfortable. Certainly cheaper to access.
The proposed I360 will at best attract people to experience it once. They will find it a let down as it offers the visitor very little more then a fancy elevator in real terms.
The city centre itself is run down and offers very little that cannot be found on any other high street/shopping centre. Okay, I'll grant you that maybe our boarded up shop-fronts may be somewhat different but when all is said and done, a boarded up shop-front is a boarded up shop-front.
So what are we left with? The lanes! The quirky lanes. In reality but a very small area really. The North Laines cannot be considered as part of the lanes, for all that they claim to be. They are run-down beyond the quirky.
The frequently renamed Pier. Which, when all is said and done, is just a glorified amusement arcade.
So there you have it. Early days to the parking charges hike I'll grant you. The weather hasn't helped. I'll grant you that too. But unless we get our finger out, and I doubt we can do it quickly enough, and turn things around here in Brighton, we will be left with word of mouth spreading, no return visitors and fewer and fewer first time visitors.
Like it or not, to be a tourist attraction you need to make yourself attractive to tourists. We seem instead to go out of our way to ensure that we repel them.
Old Ladys Gin
says...
9:27am Sat 18 Aug 12
I did it myself 30 years ago when I could see plainly the future of Brighton and Hove and how it was evolving.
The town (I cannot in all honesty call it a city even though that is the fact) has always been scruffy, dirty, and with a sleazy side to it.
Recently it has honed these 'attributes' to a fine degree and has probably had more success at it than anywhere else I know; even a post industrial northern city will not have done it so well.
Brighton is the original dirty weekend destination and has always had many a colourful character but grundge should be a dubious fashion statement, not a lifestyle.
Getaroundin
says...
9:57am Sat 18 Aug 12
Athena
says...
10:09am Sat 18 Aug 12
Except for students and young foreigners who congregate in the bars. clubs and amusement arcades, what is there for tourists to see and experience? Bottlenecks on the way into Brighton and on the way to the expensive car parks made worse by inappropriate cycle lanes. Sardine conditions on the trains and expensive taxis.
The Clock Tower is the centre of town between the station, car parks, shopping, seafront and Pavilion. What do we have? A miserable and congested walk down Queen's Road and West Street from the station, two areas best avoided at night. An uninteresting stroll down North Street towards the Pavilion and Lanes and a bus-congested bottleneck by M&S. Western Road and Churchill Square making shopping unattractive to the visitor.
At least Matsim are doing something to try and improve the rail visitor's first view of Brighton as they leave the station by renovating the Queen's Head. But what has ever been done to ease the visitors' exploration of the city?
Brighton is a sprawling mish-mash which needs themed and designated areas designed to release cash from visiting wallets. Queen's Road should be an upmarket shopping, restaurant and cafe area and a safe route by which to return to the station at night. The Victorian North Laine should capitalise on its Bohemian nature and not claim to be part of the medieval Lanes. The destruction of The Lanes in the 60s was a dreadful error which the run-down and ugly Brighton Square does nothing to enhance. There is nothing medieval about The Lanes today, just an area of ugly back-streets and modernisation which would be best undone.
The isolated Sea Life centre is awkward to get to, yet the colonnades on Madeira Drive are screaming out to be utilised as cafes, museums, shops, amusement arcades and other commercial outlets. The ugly Kingswest should lose its top and receive a new facade with windows at the sea end, not a blank brick wall. The roof would give terrific views to the sea, unencumbered by traffic if some imaginative soul could could think of a function for it. Open-air cinema or theatre, doubling up as cafe or open-air exhibition centre, like the old artists' gallery which used to live near the Peace statue.
Brighton needs other big attractions, like a permanent ice-rink or zoo, but nobody would do these things unless there would be a good return on their investment, which would only be achieved if the traffic problems in the city were addressed and acted upon.
Ideally, the area from the Station to Kings Road, from the Steine to Montpelier Road should be pedestrianised or free of non-public transport. But Brighton is an east-west city through route along the south coast from Shoreham Airport to Newhaven Harbour and for locals to slowly whizz through the city. Where would buses go, if not along the seafront or Western Road? They'd either have to be above ground or below ground or around the city, with access connections.
As an example, with Euro money, Athens has developed its Metro and tram systems and vast pedestrian areas making it much easier to wander around the city. Athens has at last realised the value of its old buildings and its history in attracting visitors and in helping tourists meander around the town while spending their money. With some imagination and investment, Brighton could do the same.
The Heretic
says...
12:18pm Sat 18 Aug 12
Plenty of other useful contributions as well. Clearly, plenty of us ARE thinking of the future.
Maybe the Argus could assist with a serious discussion forum for folks with ideas to chew the fat? If it attracted serious interest from businesses, transport operators, our MP's and the council we might, between us, begin to get some sort of long term strategy, moving from just survival to development, with a good degree of local support across the board. It might even weed out a few white elephant shemes, and goodness knows, we could all name a few of those over the years!
Thoughts or opinions please folks?
turtling.
says...
3:12pm Sat 18 Aug 12
jamus77
says...
9:42am Sun 19 Aug 12
StyleCop
says...
4:09pm Mon 20 Aug 12
mimseycal wrote:Ok. So what you're saying is that through word of mouth attrition; the town will slowly die a death because every person that parks has their day out - leaves, and then (regardless of whether they've had a good weekend or not) never return because it's too expensive to park. And not only that, they then spread the news to all their friends and relations not to bother to go to Brighton & Hove because the parking is far too expensive to bother - and of course, all those individuals then think - I'm not going there - I'll choose to go somewhere where the parking is a lot cheaper?
StyleCop wrote:I didn't think it required explaining. As your previous post suggest, people will come to Brighton unprepared. Many will stay because after all that effort getting here, they will not turn back. They will not be back though and word will spread. And soon we will get to the stage where we do not get returning visitors and we will get fewer first time visitors. Brighton's beach is nothing special. At the risk of stating the obvious, there are plenty of beaches along the coast. Some of those better maintained, cleaner and far more comfortable. Certainly cheaper to access. The proposed I360 will at best attract people to experience it once. They will find it a let down as it offers the visitor very little more then a fancy elevator in real terms. The city centre itself is run down and offers very little that cannot be found on any other high street/shopping centre. Okay, I'll grant you that maybe our boarded up shop-fronts may be somewhat different but when all is said and done, a boarded up shop-front is a boarded up shop-front. So what are we left with? The lanes! The quirky lanes. In reality but a very small area really. The North Laines cannot be considered as part of the lanes, for all that they claim to be. They are run-down beyond the quirky. The frequently renamed Pier. Which, when all is said and done, is just a glorified amusement arcade. So there you have it. Early days to the parking charges hike I'll grant you. The weather hasn't helped. I'll grant you that too. But unless we get our finger out, and I doubt we can do it quickly enough, and turn things around here in Brighton, we will be left with word of mouth spreading, no return visitors and fewer and fewer first time visitors. Like it or not, to be a tourist attraction you need to make yourself attractive to tourists. We seem instead to go out of our way to ensure that we repel them.mimseycal wrote: It certainly however, even by your reasoning would effect any potential visitors returning to Brighton.Fairdoos. It still doesn't explain why all the spaces along the front from Hove Lagoon to Brighton Marina are being fought over on a Saturday afternoon when the suns out and blazing... and more puzzling that when the weather is lousy, there's plenty of spaces... Maybe its just my imagining things, but the rocket scientist in me computes that poor weather = lack of interest in visiting the seaside and seeing that we've had such poor weather this summer I deduce a reduction of visitors could well be the result? But seeing that I'm a twerp who clearly has no insight into such matters, despite living on the beach front and running the 5 miles length of the promenade daily from the lagoon to the marina, and having observed the daily, weekly, monthly and annual ebb and flow of visitors to the beach - what the Hell do I know?
I'm sorry I'm unconvinced.
The point of this article was asking whether or not the contravertial increase of parking charges to (what is ostensibly) the higher density areas along the sea front and city center are responsible for the reduction of visitors to the city?
What it fails to mention is that the car parking in the car parks that are on the perifery of the city - london road, trafalgar street etc - are significantly cheaper than those in the areas where everyone wants to park - not everyone can park on the beach - it's basic economics - supply & demand.
Yes the Pier is tacky. Some people like that.
Yes the laines is tiny. Some people like that.
Yes there are boarded up shops - there's a recession going on... you should have a wander around Stockport.
and Yes there's lots of things you could do to spruce the place up a bit - but... not everyone agrees :)... the very fact we're arguing right here and now is proof of that... plus... there's a recession on.
I really don't see Brighton dying because a small minority can't park for free.
And even if people do come once and never return - then there's scores of other that will come... case in point... I've only ever been to Chichester once - lovely place - parking was reasonable, great shops... but probably won't go back. Why? Cos there's plenty more places in the world to visit.
Been there done that.
Phani Tikkala says...
10:04am Wed 15 Aug 12