Anger over cancellation of Israeli dance group's Brighton performance (From The Argus)
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Anger over cancellation of Israeli dance group's Brighton performance
1:50pm Tuesday 30th October 2012 in News By Ben James
The Jewish community has described the decision to cancel one of two performances by an Israeli dance group as “disgraceful”.
Brighton Dome bosses canned the Batsheva Ensemble’s Saturday, November 10 night show so they could “beef up” security for the Friday performance.
The move came after the Don’t Dance With Israel Apartheid group called on members to “link up” and disrupt the Brighton performance.
However, Jewish dance fans have slammed organisers for “giving in too easily” to protesters and scheduling the only show on their Sabbath night.
The dance group are often targeted by pro-Palestinian groups, who claim they are part of the state’s “Brand Israel” initiative to promote the arts to hide human rights abuses.
Ivor Sorokin, from the Sussex Jewish Representative Council, said: “Whatever the rights and wrongs, politics should not interfere with art.
“This young troupe just want to dance and their nationality has nothing to do with it.”
Jewish dance fans wanting to see the group will now have to break with tradition and head out on Friday night – the Jewish faith’s Sabbath.
Orthodox Jews observe the Sabbath from a few minutes before sunset on Friday evening until the following day.
Disapproval In that time they are expected to stay at home with family and are prohibited from using electronics, driving and smoking among other activities.
Mr Sorokin added: “It’s not just Orthodox Jews. Friday night is traditionally the night for spending time with family and eating together.
“Families will tend to light the Sabbath candles and spend time in each other’s company rather than going out.”
The chair of the religious group has also written to Andrew Comben, the chair of Brighton Dome, to express their disapproval at the decision.
In a strongly worded comment piece in their latest newsletter they say: “The decision of the Brighton Dome to cancel the Saturday performance of the Batsheva Dance Company and to restrict it to the Friday night (our Shabbat) is disgraceful.”
A spokeswoman for the Dome said that they had chosen to cancel Saturday night and not Friday due to a large number of school groups with tickets.
She said that they hoped to stream an online performance on Saturday night.
Mr Comben added: “Freedom of expression is fundamental in the arts and Brighton Dome and Festival exists so that ideas of all varieties can be expressed and explored.
“We support the right to protest and encourage de-bate but we have a duty to ensure that our audiences have a safe and enjoyable experience and are disappointed that their enjoyment of this company’s work may be disturbed.”
Comments(76)
AmboGuy
says...
2:11pm Tue 30 Oct 12
juleshove
says...
2:31pm Tue 30 Oct 12
It is sad the Dome has allowed these types of people to cause such disruption.
juleshove
says...
2:38pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Perhaps another performance can be rescheduled at the Dome.
Like in Britain, the Arts is a very big part of Israeli culture.
Beethoven
says...
2:44pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Incidentally, back in the day South African sport and interests were disrupted, was that justified by the evil that was apartheid? I thought not at the time and still do.
juleshove
says...
2:57pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Its called self defense. We would expect Britain to do the same.
longman
says...
3:34pm Tue 30 Oct 12
tooned_in
says...
3:40pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Kiddon72
says...
3:49pm Tue 30 Oct 12
How much of a furore would there have been if performances by a black African dance group had been cancelled ?
Ish1
says...
4:09pm Tue 30 Oct 12
sussexguy
says...
5:19pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Gary Manilow
says...
5:30pm Tue 30 Oct 12
hursthill
says...
5:43pm Tue 30 Oct 12
I note Israel is the only country in the Middle East that allows Gays the same freedoms they have in Brighton, every other Arab country arrests & tortures them.
Even Caroline Lucas, 1 of the most anti-Israel MP's now supports the rights of Israel to promote it's trade & arts in Brighton. It is the nazi bds that should be kicked out of Brighton.
bruce_
says...
6:33pm Tue 30 Oct 12
who for all I know may be purely art-orientated.)
JHunty
says...
6:43pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Funny how yet again Israels supporters claim the right to self defence as justification for killing Palestinians but when Palestinians defend themselves in the same way they are terrorists.
Follow this link
http://old.btselem.o
rg/statistics/englis
h/Casualties.asp
to see the huge disparity between Israeli casualties and Palestinian casualties its clear who is the aggressor and it isnt the Palestinians who are simply trying to claim the same right to nationhood that Israel claims as its right.
Its a crying shame that SmashEdo's campaign of thuggery has so set people against what is a worthy cause.
Ish1
says...
6:49pm Tue 30 Oct 12
trained than the Palestinian terrorists.
That you don't even acknowledge that Arab countries paticularly Hammas torture and imprison gays which is a fact as opposed to the nonsense you write shows you up in your true light.
It is sad that The Dome management did not have the guts to stand up to the anti Israel thugs who do not believe in freedom of artistic expression.
leobrighton
says...
8:32pm Tue 30 Oct 12
mimseycal
says...
8:47pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Take it Personally
says...
9:24pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Gary Manilow wrote:well said
Likewise Sussexguy - When Britain was being attacked by the IRA we didn't build a bloody great wall around Irish Nationalists.
mimseycal
says...
9:48pm Tue 30 Oct 12
http://www.childreno
fireland.us/children
killed.htm
Dealing with idiots
says...
9:50pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Take it Personally wrote:If we had then perhaps fewer people would have been killed and the conflict would have ended sooner?
Gary Manilow wrote: Likewise Sussexguy - When Britain was being attacked by the IRA we didn't build a bloody great wall around Irish Nationalists.well said
harvela
says...
10:29pm Tue 30 Oct 12
The CPS would prosecute on that basis but it requires someone to press charges .
While these people would doubtless welcome their day in court , a criminal record is no laughing matter and would have a serious impact on their employment status - not that would matter to the vast majority of these anarchists , trots and general rent a mob layabouts
yifat
says...
10:40pm Tue 30 Oct 12
harvela
says...
10:53pm Tue 30 Oct 12
er.com/Mr_Rubinstein
/status/263406784251
826176
Scottish Psc fascists failed in their attempt to cancel Edinburgh this evening .
Well done Batsheva for standing up to these so called ' humanitarians ' whose humanity stops short of protesting the tens of thousands of Israelis murdered and maimed by Palestinian terrorists .
harvela
says...
11:03pm Tue 30 Oct 12
When a lie is told big enough and often enough it becomes the truth . I doubt very much if you've been to Israel . You simply regurgitate Marxist agit prop . Get a life , go visit and draw your own conclusions instead of being a sock puppet for those who have no interest in a peaceful resolution and implementation of a two state solution .
BDS has one obsessive goal which is the dismantlement of Israel and its replacement by a single Islamic state .
They are playing theoretical games with people's lives as Israel will never accept such an outcome . That is of no consequence to Marxist reactionaries . Only the end product matters , no matter how much blood is spilled on the way .
Ish1
says...
11:54pm Tue 30 Oct 12
Gary Manilow wrote:Sussexguy - I suggest that you acqaint yourself with the facts before pontificating on matters you obviously know nothing about.
Likewise Sussexguy - When Britain was being attacked by the IRA we didn't build a bloody great wall around Irish Nationalists.
If you knew about the Northern Ireland troubles you would know that the British army built a security wall in Londonderry separating the Catholics and Protestants which was built by the British decades before Israel built the security wall to prevent Palestinian terorists from entering Israel to kill innocent civilians by planting bombs in resaurants, shops and on buses.
If the Palestinian terrorists had not attacked innocent civilian Israelis by planting bombs then there would be no need for the security wall.
tonygreenstein
says...
12:59am Wed 31 Oct 12
And does Harvey condemn the disruption of concerts by Soviet Jewish activists in the 1960s and 70's? the Bolshoi for example? Politics and culture mixed then.
It is a trite slogan to say culture and politics don't mix. Culture comes out of particular societies and is inevitably part of the political make-up of those societies, from Lina Riefenstahl to Picasso. To pretend that there is no connection is absurd. The Boycott of South African sport did indeed damage the psyche and self-confidence of the Whites.
Israel likewise is an apartheid state. There is no 2 state solution because that is inimical to Zionism. But a majority of Israelis according to the latest opinion poll in Ha'aretz would prefer an apartheid state to giving Arabs in the West Bank the vote. And that is what we have.
Palestinian casualties are about 20 times that of Israel. Palestinian child prisoners as young as 12 are shackled and imprisoned and worse. Arab villages in Israel are destroyed because they are Arab. One could go on but as is normal with apologists for colonialism, the posters here focus on the reaction of the oppressed not those who began the ethnic cleansing.
PorkBoat
says...
2:38am Wed 31 Oct 12
tonygreenstein wrote:I bet you're a hoot at parties.
Yes Israel is the victim and the Palestinians, driven from their land in 1948 and under occupation since 1967 are the aggressors. No doubt Orwell would be proud of you.
And does Harvey condemn the disruption of concerts by Soviet Jewish activists in the 1960s and 70's? the Bolshoi for example? Politics and culture mixed then.
It is a trite slogan to say culture and politics don't mix. Culture comes out of particular societies and is inevitably part of the political make-up of those societies, from Lina Riefenstahl to Picasso. To pretend that there is no connection is absurd. The Boycott of South African sport did indeed damage the psyche and self-confidence of the Whites.
Israel likewise is an apartheid state. There is no 2 state solution because that is inimical to Zionism. But a majority of Israelis according to the latest opinion poll in Ha'aretz would prefer an apartheid state to giving Arabs in the West Bank the vote. And that is what we have.
Palestinian casualties are about 20 times that of Israel. Palestinian child prisoners as young as 12 are shackled and imprisoned and worse. Arab villages in Israel are destroyed because they are Arab. One could go on but as is normal with apologists for colonialism, the posters here focus on the reaction of the oppressed not those who began the ethnic cleansing.
harvela
says...
4:18am Wed 31 Oct 12
In case you hadn't noticed , with the exception of Iran and a few failed third world Arab states that are busily wiping out their own people , the only ones labeling Israel apartheid are individuals such as yourself .
There is no global boycott of Israel because its not recognised as such .
Your BDS campaign was labelled a cult by none other than original doyenne Norman Finklestein . A cult with no political traction and no critical mass , not even in Palestine itself .
juleshove
says...
6:47am Wed 31 Oct 12
tonygreenstein wrote:The usual utter nonsense from you i see Greenstein.
Yes Israel is the victim and the Palestinians, driven from their land in 1948 and under occupation since 1967 are the aggressors. No doubt Orwell would be proud of you.
And does Harvey condemn the disruption of concerts by Soviet Jewish activists in the 1960s and 70's? the Bolshoi for example? Politics and culture mixed then.
It is a trite slogan to say culture and politics don't mix. Culture comes out of particular societies and is inevitably part of the political make-up of those societies, from Lina Riefenstahl to Picasso. To pretend that there is no connection is absurd. The Boycott of South African sport did indeed damage the psyche and self-confidence of the Whites.
Israel likewise is an apartheid state. There is no 2 state solution because that is inimical to Zionism. But a majority of Israelis according to the latest opinion poll in Ha'aretz would prefer an apartheid state to giving Arabs in the West Bank the vote. And that is what we have.
Palestinian casualties are about 20 times that of Israel. Palestinian child prisoners as young as 12 are shackled and imprisoned and worse. Arab villages in Israel are destroyed because they are Arab. One could go on but as is normal with apologists for colonialism, the posters here focus on the reaction of the oppressed not those who began the ethnic cleansing.
harvela
says...
7:02am Wed 31 Oct 12
The 1970s disruptions to the Bolshoi were wrong in the same way that disrupting Israeli dance groups is morally indefensible .
However there is a big difference between former Soviet Russia / Communist ideology which saw fit to murder some millions of its own citizens during the Stalinist era and Israel which has had to defend itself from Arab aggression for more than 60 years .
juleshove
says...
7:07am Wed 31 Oct 12
Dr Pork
says...
7:25am Wed 31 Oct 12
george smith wrote:'It is hardly the klu klux klan dancing'
Why should the audience not have a safe and enjoyable experience? Unless of course there is a problem with extremists and we are in denial we have a problem with extremists. It is hardly the klu klux klan dancing
Now that I would go and see... but only if it was on ice.
gaz scott
says...
9:00am Wed 31 Oct 12
tonygreenstein wrote:Well said.
Yes Israel is the victim and the Palestinians, driven from their land in 1948 and under occupation since 1967 are the aggressors. No doubt Orwell would be proud of you.
And does Harvey condemn the disruption of concerts by Soviet Jewish activists in the 1960s and 70's? the Bolshoi for example? Politics and culture mixed then.
It is a trite slogan to say culture and politics don't mix. Culture comes out of particular societies and is inevitably part of the political make-up of those societies, from Lina Riefenstahl to Picasso. To pretend that there is no connection is absurd. The Boycott of South African sport did indeed damage the psyche and self-confidence of the Whites.
Israel likewise is an apartheid state. There is no 2 state solution because that is inimical to Zionism. But a majority of Israelis according to the latest opinion poll in Ha'aretz would prefer an apartheid state to giving Arabs in the West Bank the vote. And that is what we have.
Palestinian casualties are about 20 times that of Israel. Palestinian child prisoners as young as 12 are shackled and imprisoned and worse. Arab villages in Israel are destroyed because they are Arab. One could go on but as is normal with apologists for colonialism, the posters here focus on the reaction of the oppressed not those who began the ethnic cleansing.
mimseycal
says...
9:42am Wed 31 Oct 12
http://www.allforpea
ce.org/ is a joint Israeli-Palestinian radio outlet broadcasting twenty-four hours a day in Arabic, Hebrew and English.
http://www.osaarchiv
um.org/galeria/the_d
ivide/chapter19.html "Israeli and Palestinian "Artists Without Walls"
SheshBesh which is the Arab-Jewish Ensemble of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra
http://cfpeace.org/ started jointly by former soldiers in the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) and Palestinians formerly engaged in "violent struggle for Palestinian freedom."
But carry on hating ... so much easier to stick to the devil you know isn't it.
Fight_Back
says...
9:57am Wed 31 Oct 12
sussexguy wrote:WOW - talk about re-writing history !!!!! We declared war on Germany ( correctly so IMHO ) so of course Germany was likely to attack us. The two situations couldn't be more dis-similar.
Israel is attacked on a daily basis by rockets fired from Gaza, but suicide bombing has been controlled successfully. When Britain was attacked by Nazis during World War 2, did she just sit back and endure it? No she fought back to preserve the freedom which we (and that includes the fanatical Pro-Palestinian mob) enjoy to this day. It is extraordinary that the Dome should give in to the loudmouthed idiots in our community. And, incidentally, when they did make this crass decision, why did they not have the sense to cancel the Friday one, and keep the Saturday one? Suspicion must fall on whoever made that decision. Either they are bigoted, ignorant or brainless - probably all three. I hadn't intended going to see the company, as the programme did not sound all that interesting. But now I shall do so.
On the other hand, we fought the IRA but didn't bulldoze houses with Irish people still in them, shoot innocent women and children or use banned weapons such as white phosphorus.
The case of Israel, she illegally occupies lands against UN resolutions, illegally kills it's opponents in foreign countries ( and uses fake British passports to point the blame at the UK ) and has created a ghetto called Gaza. She has no right to complain when whose she is doing wrong against fight back using the only means they have. If she doesn't like rockets and suicide bombers attacking her then the answer is simple - hand back the illegally held lands. Nothing bigoted about that - just good old British common sense. I fully support the Palestinians using whatever means necessary to rid their lands of the murderous invaders - ironically I despise Smash EDO but I guess that blows apart certain posters bigotry.
Point
says...
10:07am Wed 31 Oct 12
Gary Manilow wrote:We didn't the dividing wall and army turretts starting from the shankhill Road looked like a great wall to me....
Likewise Sussexguy - When Britain was being attacked by the IRA we didn't build a bloody great wall around Irish Nationalists.
yifat
says...
10:19am Wed 31 Oct 12
mimseycal
says...
11:18am Wed 31 Oct 12
Following the Oslo Accords (1993) the Palestinian Authority, a five-year interim body between the Palestinian Liberation Organisation and the Israeli government was formed in 1994. Over time the authority, which renamed itself the Palestinian National Authority after its formation, has managed to gain some territory and, following the Second Intifada, when as a result of being under attack the IDF retook some strategic positions, it lost some.
On January 25th (if my memory serves me right) 2006 Hammas emerged victorious from the Palestinian Legislative Elections. Yet the national unity Palestinian government collapsed to all intents and purposes when Hamas and Fatach engaged in violent conflict. This took place mainly in the Gaza strip.
Sometime in June 2007 Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority Chairman dismissed the duly elected Hamas government which became relegated to having authority only over the Gaza strip.
Israel by the way withdrew from the Gaza strip in a unilateral movement in 2005.
Currently, as things stand there are two Palestinian nations (for want of a better word). The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, supported by the Arab League and several aid programmes and the Hamas Government in Gaza became dependent mainly on Iran until the eruption of the Arab Spring.
So by all means, protest all you want about human right abuses and I'd stand there with you shoulder to shoulder if not ahead of you. But at least do the Palestinians the courtesy of treating them as human beings with their own legitimate aims, dreams and aspirations rather then pawns in your political gaming against Israel.
mimseycal
says...
11:22am Wed 31 Oct 12
I was interrupted by a phone call and skipped the word which
Fight_Back
says...
11:28am Wed 31 Oct 12
mimseycal wrote:Strangely missing any mention of UN resolutions ( of which there are many against Israel ) 2253 and 2727.
Okay ... lets have some facts about the illegally occupied territories that Israel currently holds shall we.
Following the Oslo Accords (1993) the Palestinian Authority, a five-year interim body between the Palestinian Liberation Organisation and the Israeli government was formed in 1994. Over time the authority, which renamed itself the Palestinian National Authority after its formation, has managed to gain some territory and, following the Second Intifada, when as a result of being under attack the IDF retook some strategic positions, it lost some.
On January 25th (if my memory serves me right) 2006 Hammas emerged victorious from the Palestinian Legislative Elections. Yet the national unity Palestinian government collapsed to all intents and purposes when Hamas and Fatach engaged in violent conflict. This took place mainly in the Gaza strip.
Sometime in June 2007 Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority Chairman dismissed the duly elected Hamas government which became relegated to having authority only over the Gaza strip.
Israel by the way withdrew from the Gaza strip in a unilateral movement in 2005.
Currently, as things stand there are two Palestinian nations (for want of a better word). The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, supported by the Arab League and several aid programmes and the Hamas Government in Gaza became dependent mainly on Iran until the eruption of the Arab Spring.
So by all means, protest all you want about human right abuses and I'd stand there with you shoulder to shoulder if not ahead of you. But at least do the Palestinians the courtesy of treating them as human beings with their own legitimate aims, dreams and aspirations rather then pawns in your political gaming against Israel.
mimseycal
says...
11:45am Wed 31 Oct 12
Fight_Back
says...
1:51pm Wed 31 Oct 12
mimseycal wrote:The problem being that all Israel apologists seem to forget the resolutions and instead want sympathy because of the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis despite Israel employing some of the same tactics as the Nazis.
True ... I'll be the first to admit that my post is far from being fully comprehensive. Made you think though ;)
mimseycal
says...
3:25pm Wed 31 Oct 12
harvela
says...
3:45pm Wed 31 Oct 12
Batsheva 2nd half cancelled after 5 protests inside performance.
--
Interesting tweet from spsc surfaced last night . There was no cancellation of the performance just as there was no handing back of tickets . Simply good old fashioned Marxist propaganda aka pantomime season
gaz scott
says...
6:44pm Wed 31 Oct 12
harvela wrote:I noticed quite a few glaring factual inaccuracies in the Argus today too. More Marxists to check for under my bed before I float off to sleep tonight!!
from the Scottishpsc twitter account
Batsheva 2nd half cancelled after 5 protests inside performance.
--
Interesting tweet from spsc surfaced last night . There was no cancellation of the performance just as there was no handing back of tickets . Simply good old fashioned Marxist propaganda aka pantomime season
Goyboy
says...
11:58pm Wed 31 Oct 12
Fight_Back wrote:Not so FB, not so.
mimseycal wrote:The problem being that all Israel apologists seem to forget the resolutions and instead want sympathy because of the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis despite Israel employing some of the same tactics as the Nazis.
True ... I'll be the first to admit that my post is far from being fully comprehensive. Made you think though ;)
Many Israeli supporters like myself are fully aware of the numerous UN resolutions against Israel, and the rulings diseminated from the International Court of Justice...its just that the UN and the ICJ are utterly unbalanced in their pontifications, and many people wrongly assume they are all about truth and justice, and are most often led to believe that all their rulings are 'legally binding'.
The Israeli government by and large are not made up of complete nincompoops, and realise that as a nation they will never garner justice from the UN, so to them it is an organization that is mostly irrelevant because to comply with the UN's rulings would mean the destruction of Israel.
Israel and the Jewish people do not need sympathy, mollycodddling or being patronized..they simply want a fair focus on the difficulties their nation has to face, and to be held to the same standards as other nations...but they are targetted by those that hate them and misunderstood by those that choose to believe the narrative of those that seek their destruction.
I wish the Batsheva Ensemble a warm welcome to Brighton, and will not let any ardent BDS and pro-Palestinian supporters spoil my enjoyment of the forth-coming show, even if fifty or more have to be ejected from the Theatre.
Ish1
says...
12:11am Thu 1 Nov 12
Goyboy wrote:Goyboy - well said!
Fight_Back wrote:Not so FB, not so.
mimseycal wrote:The problem being that all Israel apologists seem to forget the resolutions and instead want sympathy because of the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis despite Israel employing some of the same tactics as the Nazis.
True ... I'll be the first to admit that my post is far from being fully comprehensive. Made you think though ;)
Many Israeli supporters like myself are fully aware of the numerous UN resolutions against Israel, and the rulings diseminated from the International Court of Justice...its just that the UN and the ICJ are utterly unbalanced in their pontifications, and many people wrongly assume they are all about truth and justice, and are most often led to believe that all their rulings are 'legally binding'.
The Israeli government by and large are not made up of complete nincompoops, and realise that as a nation they will never garner justice from the UN, so to them it is an organization that is mostly irrelevant because to comply with the UN's rulings would mean the destruction of Israel.
Israel and the Jewish people do not need sympathy, mollycodddling or being patronized..they simply want a fair focus on the difficulties their nation has to face, and to be held to the same standards as other nations...but they are targetted by those that hate them and misunderstood by those that choose to believe the narrative of those that seek their destruction.
I wish the Batsheva Ensemble a warm welcome to Brighton, and will not let any ardent BDS and pro-Palestinian supporters spoil my enjoyment of the forth-coming show, even if fifty or more have to be ejected from the Theatre.
harvela
says...
7:41am Thu 1 Nov 12
Of course it would not surprise me that Savile was pro-Israeli. His type usually is. A reactionary buffoon as well as a rapist and child molester. Strong? Well states that shackle (Palestinian not Jewish of course) children, beat them up and torture them must prove very attractive to the likes of Savile
Apparently Savile visited Israel in 1975, some 35 years before it was revealed that Savile was a child molestor . That's enough for Greenstein , in his bug eyed hatred of Israel , to write a vile and defamatory article .
It really should come as no surprise .
Ish1
says...
9:53am Thu 1 Nov 12
harvela wrote:If Greenstein who appears to be a self hating Jew is concerned abut Palestinians being tortured and harmed he should direct his attention to Hammas who routinely torture and summarily execute Palestinians.
From Tony Greensteins blog
Of course it would not surprise me that Savile was pro-Israeli. His type usually is. A reactionary buffoon as well as a rapist and child molester. Strong? Well states that shackle (Palestinian not Jewish of course) children, beat them up and torture them must prove very attractive to the likes of Savile
Apparently Savile visited Israel in 1975, some 35 years before it was revealed that Savile was a child molestor . That's enough for Greenstein , in his bug eyed hatred of Israel , to write a vile and defamatory article .
It really should come as no surprise .
This would probably not be of any interest either him or the other Israel haters as they are only concerned with
criticising Israel rather than helping the Arabs as shown by their convenient disregard of current events in Syria where upwards of 30,000 Arabs have been killed.
Indeed, it is ironic that Arabs are killing Arabs and Greenstein and Co do not mutter a word but are only too hapy to take any opportunity to criticise Israel for the slightest thing, normally distorted out of all propertion by the Israel haters.
yifat
says...
5:58pm Thu 1 Nov 12
Ish1
says...
6:16pm Thu 1 Nov 12
yifat wrote:Yifat:
Gaza, is under siege as in spite of the 'withdrawal' by Israel in 2005 (as mentioned earlier on this list) its borders are controlled by the latter. As for these delusions of democracy, Palestinian prisoners have been held in administrative detention since 1967, with numbers fluctuating over the years. Administrative detention means that they are held indifinitely without charge or trial. Why do you think that some of the prisoners are on hunger strike? (all documented by Amnesty, Physicians for Human Rights Israel, Adameer and more)This is just one example of this so called 'democracy'. The call for BDS is not about hatred, on the contrary it is about human rights and equality for all who live there.
If you are so concerned about "human rights and equality for all who live there"
why have you not uttered one word of protest against the Syrians who are killing each other every day or is it all right by you that upwards of 30,000 Arabs have been killed in Syria, not to mention the thousands of Arabs killed in other Arab countries.
Had you bothered to actually check your facts you would have seen that Egypt controls two thirds of the borders with Gaza which seeks to destroy Israel.
yifat
says...
6:33pm Thu 1 Nov 12
harvela
says...
6:34pm Thu 1 Nov 12
How about the human rights of the citizens of Southern Israel who have been on the receiving end of thousands of rockets and mortars since 2005 when Israel pulled out of Gaza
Why no concern for the human rights of the thousands of Israelis murdered and maimed by Palestinian homicide bombers during the second Intifada .
Yes there is a blockade of Gaza and rightly so . Hamas have declared that they will never accept the existence of a Jewish state post or pre 67 borders and are determined to use every means at their disposal to make good on that pronouncement . If there was no blockade , every manner of lethal weapon would be making its way from Iran and elsewhere into the strip .
With Syria in a state of civil war and about to splinter , there is the real danger that Assads WMDs will find their way to Gaza with all that entails .
Naturally the BDS campaigners are not concerned about such minor details . Unfortunately their undoubted humanitarian ideals do not include Israel .
yifat
says...
7:11pm Thu 1 Nov 12
mimseycal
says...
7:53pm Thu 1 Nov 12
Like it or not, people are going to defend themselves against attack and, the way things stand, those with the economic and industrial power will have more sophisticated means of mass destruction. That is not a Palestine/Israel thing specifically but, regrettably, the way of the world.
Israel will never cease to protect its right to a continued existence and the Palestinian, whether West Bank or Gaza Strip, deserves to live a life free from the daily cry to arm itself against an invader who has by and large already withdrawn from its territories and as an act of pre-emptive self protection has determined to keep a close guard on its borders.
I'd go further and say that the Palestinian deserves the right to draw breath and turn his/her energies to developing their respective states. But that will not come about at the expense of a total annihilation of Israel.
As long as we have those who will 'ueber alles' one side over another, this humanitarian tragedy that is the Middle East will continue.
harvela
says...
8:01pm Thu 1 Nov 12
The last time I had a look at the PSC logo there was no indication of Israel , only a single Palestinian state from ' the river to the sea ' .
How are those ideals you speak of meant to help Israel ? .
You need to step out of the theoretical and embrace a few realities .
yifat
says...
10:06pm Thu 1 Nov 12
harvela
says...
10:29pm Thu 1 Nov 12
I've also been witness to a number of PSC gatherings and heard the chant of
' from the river to the sea Palestine will be Free ' . This is in keeping with the aforementioned logo .
You say you do not wish to see the annihilation of Israel but I fail to see how you can substantiate that given what appears to be a single state solution .
Please could you explain what appears to be a contradiction of objective . Thx
Ish1
says...
12:26am Fri 2 Nov 12
yifat wrote:Maybe you could try and convince Hammas to also seek "equal rights for all" meaning equal rights for both Jews and Arabs as they still call for the annihalation of Israel and the judreinasation of the west bank, similar to the banning of of Jews in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries where Jews are banned.
The PSC campaigns for the rights of the Palestinians as the latter are denied those rights, but of course its members do not want the annhilation of Israel, they just want equal rights for all. Perhaps instead of looking at some logo which is just a reference to the borders of historic Palestine, you should do some in-depth research about this solidarity group. Even better, you could come to one of its stalls and have a chat to some of its members to find out more about the aim of the campaign.
yifat
says...
10:14am Fri 2 Nov 12
Ish1
says...
11:21am Fri 2 Nov 12
yifat wrote:Ofcourse you won't hear their chants as you don't want to hear them.
I don't support Hamas, I see it as a symptom of desperation because of the on-going siege. I think it's down to people, Palestinians and Israelis as well as internationals to change things for the better. The grassroots groups working together towards equal rights and peace are growing. As for the PSC logo perhaps it is to do with the fact that some of its members want a one state solution with both Israelis and Palestinians leaving together equally.It's just a guess but you should ask them and see what they say. I can't say I've ever heard any of the chants someone mentioned above when I've been to their public meetings.
You only read and hear what you want to read.
As for a one state solution, Britain promised the Jewish people, of which I am a proud member, a Jewish state when they made the Balfour declaration.
Bearing in mind that there are over eighty Moslem countries why should some of the PSC supporters seek to deny the Jews their right to their own state?
We are as equual as the Moslems.
Um Yisroel Chai.
mimseycal
says...
12:01pm Fri 2 Nov 12
Further, historically, neither Am Israel nor Am Ishmael have the moral high ground here and neither are exactly innocent from abusing human rights, overstepping their boundaries or, on occasions going way beyond the pale.
As for the Balfour Declaration, consign that to history. The historical causes, treaties, declarations, whys and wherefores are intersting only from an academic point of view. Fascinating as an in depth historical debate might be, it does not solve the problem that is here and now.
Ish1
says...
2:21pm Fri 2 Nov 12
mimseycal wrote:How convenient for you to try and consign the Balfour Declaration to history.
Am (Hebrew for nation/people of) Israel deserves to chai (Hebrew for lives) as much as Am Ishmael (the eldest son of Abraham, patriarch, and the older brother of Isaac. Tradition has it that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab people and Isaac, the second born, is the progenitor of Israel).
Further, historically, neither Am Israel nor Am Ishmael have the moral high ground here and neither are exactly innocent from abusing human rights, overstepping their boundaries or, on occasions going way beyond the pale.
As for the Balfour Declaration, consign that to history. The historical causes, treaties, declarations, whys and wherefores are intersting only from an academic point of view. Fascinating as an in depth historical debate might be, it does not solve the problem that is here and now.
The sooner you and your friends accept that that is never going to happen, the greater the chances of peace in the region.
You can put that in your pipe and smoke it!
Ish1
says...
2:26pm Fri 2 Nov 12
juleshove wrote:Dear Tony Greenstein,
tonygreenstein wrote:The usual utter nonsense from you i see Greenstein.
Yes Israel is the victim and the Palestinians, driven from their land in 1948 and under occupation since 1967 are the aggressors. No doubt Orwell would be proud of you.
And does Harvey condemn the disruption of concerts by Soviet Jewish activists in the 1960s and 70's? the Bolshoi for example? Politics and culture mixed then.
It is a trite slogan to say culture and politics don't mix. Culture comes out of particular societies and is inevitably part of the political make-up of those societies, from Lina Riefenstahl to Picasso. To pretend that there is no connection is absurd. The Boycott of South African sport did indeed damage the psyche and self-confidence of the Whites.
Israel likewise is an apartheid state. There is no 2 state solution because that is inimical to Zionism. But a majority of Israelis according to the latest opinion poll in Ha'aretz would prefer an apartheid state to giving Arabs in the West Bank the vote. And that is what we have.
Palestinian casualties are about 20 times that of Israel. Palestinian child prisoners as young as 12 are shackled and imprisoned and worse. Arab villages in Israel are destroyed because they are Arab. One could go on but as is normal with apologists for colonialism, the posters here focus on the reaction of the oppressed not those who began the ethnic cleansing.
As it is erev shabbat I thought that I ,
a proud Jew would wish you even though you appear to be a self hating Jew, Good Shabbos.
If you come to shul tomorrow maybe we could have a chat about your misguided poliitcal views.
Ish1
says...
2:26pm Fri 2 Nov 12
juleshove wrote:Dear Tony Greenstein,
tonygreenstein wrote:The usual utter nonsense from you i see Greenstein.
Yes Israel is the victim and the Palestinians, driven from their land in 1948 and under occupation since 1967 are the aggressors. No doubt Orwell would be proud of you.
And does Harvey condemn the disruption of concerts by Soviet Jewish activists in the 1960s and 70's? the Bolshoi for example? Politics and culture mixed then.
It is a trite slogan to say culture and politics don't mix. Culture comes out of particular societies and is inevitably part of the political make-up of those societies, from Lina Riefenstahl to Picasso. To pretend that there is no connection is absurd. The Boycott of South African sport did indeed damage the psyche and self-confidence of the Whites.
Israel likewise is an apartheid state. There is no 2 state solution because that is inimical to Zionism. But a majority of Israelis according to the latest opinion poll in Ha'aretz would prefer an apartheid state to giving Arabs in the West Bank the vote. And that is what we have.
Palestinian casualties are about 20 times that of Israel. Palestinian child prisoners as young as 12 are shackled and imprisoned and worse. Arab villages in Israel are destroyed because they are Arab. One could go on but as is normal with apologists for colonialism, the posters here focus on the reaction of the oppressed not those who began the ethnic cleansing.
As it is erev shabbat I thought that I ,
a proud Jew would wish you even though you appear to be a self hating Jew, Good Shabbos.
If you come to shul tomorrow maybe we could have a chat about your misguided politcal views.
harvela
says...
2:31pm Fri 2 Nov 12
What about the vast majority of Israelis both Jews and arabs , who don't share your vision of a one state solution . Are you not in the least concerned for their human rights and how do you suppose this one state solution will be imposed .
Do you think Israel will one day hold a referendum with a resulting positive vote in favour of a single state .
I'm genuinely interested in how you believe you can bring this about by disrupting dance groups and attempting to close down a single front shop on Western Avenue .
harvela
says...
2:51pm Fri 2 Nov 12
After all , how can antizionism ever be antisemitic when there are ' Good Jews 'on board .
Well it certainly can , especially when you seek to overturn one people's independence and nationalism in favour of another . To deny Israel the right of national expression and identity as a Jewish nation while seeking to impose another is indeed antisemitic .
Closer to home , we have the unedifying spectacle of the PSC having to call an Extra ordinary general meeting in order to confirm the expulsion of a former head of the organisation for his holocaust denial and general antisemitism .
All well and good except the fact that
40% of those voting rejected his expulsion . I can't think of to many organisations that have to go through the wringer like this in order to divest themselves of antisemites .
What is it about the PSC that attracts these types ?
harvela
says...
2:59pm Fri 2 Nov 12
but I can see there were genuine grounds for protesting a totalitarian ideology that had seen fit to murder tens of millions of its own citizens during the Stalinist reign of terror .
Only an unreconstructed diehard Communist such as yourself could fail to see the difference .
mimseycal
says...
5:58pm Fri 2 Nov 12
Ish1 wrote:And yet another one who only sees what he expects to see.
mimseycal wrote:How convenient for you to try and consign the Balfour Declaration to history.
Am (Hebrew for nation/people of) Israel deserves to chai (Hebrew for lives) as much as Am Ishmael (the eldest son of Abraham, patriarch, and the older brother of Isaac. Tradition has it that Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arab people and Isaac, the second born, is the progenitor of Israel).
Further, historically, neither Am Israel nor Am Ishmael have the moral high ground here and neither are exactly innocent from abusing human rights, overstepping their boundaries or, on occasions going way beyond the pale.
As for the Balfour Declaration, consign that to history. The historical causes, treaties, declarations, whys and wherefores are intersting only from an academic point of view. Fascinating as an in depth historical debate might be, it does not solve the problem that is here and now.
The sooner you and your friends accept that that is never going to happen, the greater the chances of peace in the region.
You can put that in your pipe and smoke it!
harvela
says...
7:35pm Fri 2 Nov 12
Of course we all know that the reason Jenna Delich is being attacked has nothing to do with mistakenly posting a link to David Duke's website and everything to do with her being a supporter of the Boycott of Israel, i.e. her opposition to racism which, like all good racists, Harry's Place classes as a form of racism!
Greenstein defending another Anti Zionist who mistakenly posted a link to Notorious antisemite David Dukes website .
As I said earlier why does the anti Zionist cause attract a disproportionate number of antisemites and more to the point why does Tony Greenstein go to such lengths to defend them .
harvela
says...
7:51pm Fri 2 Nov 12
'Mistakenly' posted
yifat
says...
10:59pm Fri 2 Nov 12
Ish1
says...
4:40pm Sun 4 Nov 12
yifat wrote:Whilst most people are aware of Tony Greenstein's campaign against Israel
Anyone who's lived in Brighton long enough knows that Tony Greenstein has been campaigning against anti-semitism and racism for many years, so your allegations are totally false. Sadly sometimes different groups whether political etc.can be used as an oulet for some people's prejudices, but the PSC dealt appropriately by expelling the person with such views. The PSC has a no racism policy.
I and most of my fellow Jews are unaware of "Tony Greenstein's campaign against racism and
anti-semitism" which would indicate that he keeps his campaign against racism and anti-semitism very quiet
as opposed to his campaign against Israel and shows where his priorities lie.
yifat
says...
10:37am Mon 5 Nov 12
Ish1
says...
8:56pm Mon 5 Nov 12
yifat wrote:As Israel does not pursue "rascist policies" as everyone is equal in Israel,
It's not a campaign against Israel, it's a campaign against its racist policies. I've seen Tony Greenstein on a number of anti-racist marches over the years, and heard him speak out against anti-semitism on many occasions. Only just last year he held a book launch and meeting about these issues where the EDL tried to intimidate him and put a stop to him speaking but he stood his ground.
irrespective of their religion you write nonsense.
You and Tony Greenstein are obviously anti-Israel as are most of the left wing.
Indeed, the first antisemitism I experienced was from the left wing
when I when to university in London.
You and Greenstein are not concerned about the Arabs but are simply anti-Israel as if you are so concerned about the welfare of the Arabs you would have protested against the Syrians who are killing each other every day or is it all right by you that upwards of 38,000 Arabs have been killed in Syria, not to mention the thousands of Arabs killed in other Arab countries.
george smith says...
2:07pm Tue 30 Oct 12