Police demand DNA from men with historic convictions for being gay

1:00pm Friday 25th January 2013 in News Exclusive By Peter Truman

Men were picked out for DNA samples as part of Sussex Police's move to solve old crimes Men were picked out for DNA samples as part of Sussex Police's move to solve old crimes

Police turned up on the doorsteps of men and ordered them to hand over their DNA – for being gay.

Officers went to the homes of three men and demanded they be allowed to collect samples from them in case they were guilty of unsolved crimes.

The men were picked out because they had been convicted of the outdated offence of gross indecency.

And those who refused faced being arrested and taken to a police station for questioning.

The tactic was used by officers as part of Operation Nutmeg, the force’s move to solve old crimes by collecting DNA samples from rapists, murderers and child sex abusers in case they were responsible but never caught.

But those convicted solely of gross indecency were also grouped in the directive and received a knock on the door – despite national guidelines saying they should not be.

Two of the men were so concerned by the incident they called the Brighton LGBT Switchboard to see how it affected their legal rights.

The historic anti-homosexuality offence of gross indecency, which was famously used to convict Oscar Wilde, was repealed in 2003.

'Distressing'

Natalie Woods, the service manager at Brighton LGBT Switchboard, said: “The fact that these men have been criminalised in the first place for consensual sex has had a distressing and adverse affect on their lives.

“To then be approached years later by the police requesting a DNA sample due to their unfair and no longer valid previous conviction can and does have a re-traumatising effect.”

Sussex Police confirmed three people had been contacted by officers but said all of the men then gave DNA “voluntarily”.

A spokesman said those contacted could have their DNA record destroyed if they requested.

'Dark days'

But the force offered no apology for lumping the men in with rapists and child sex abusers in the search for offenders, or for any distress it may have caused.

James Ledward, the editor of Brighton-based G-Scene magazine, said it reminded him of the “dark days” when homosexuality was illegal.

He added: “The police have failed to follow the guidance. How could they get themselves in this position without questioning it?

“They should apologise to these people.”

'Not targeted'

A Sussex Police spokesman said the force was following national guidelines – despite the Association of Chief Police Officers’ guidance saying forces “should not seek to obtain a DNA sample from subjects who only have this conviction on their record”.

The spokesman added: “The Operation Nutmeg sampling process has not targeted any specific communities - we have approached all men and women who have relevant previous convictions.

“We would encourage anyone with concerns they may have a criminal record due to this repealed offence to request its removal. We can provide guidance to help with this process.

“Similarly, if any of the three men only convicted of this offence who have provided DNA samples under Operation Nutmeg would like to review their voluntary decision, we will be happy to hear from them."

Legal change

In 1895 Oscar Wilde was prosecuted for gross indecency and was sentenced to two years in prison.

Thousands of other gay men were blackmailed, prosecuted, sentenced to prison, pilloried and shamed.

Alan Turing, who helped break the Enigma code, committed suicide shortly after his prosecution.

The law had been introduced to help convict people when there was not enough evidence of sodomy.

In 1967, Leo Abse introduced the Sexual Offences Bill 1967 which decriminalised consensual homosexual behaviour between men over the age of 21.

The offence of gross indecency was eventually scrapped in 2003.

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Comments(45)

Algeria Touchshriek says...
1:12pm Fri 25 Jan 13

I am surprised that this day and age the police could undertake such a bad PR situation.

I therefore doubt the full facts of this story and believe there was more to "gross indecency" than just merely being a gay.

Quite often animals, eunuchs and even men from Wiltshire were involved.

Report this post »

leobrighton says...
1:24pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Algeria Touchshriek wrote:
I am surprised that this day and age the police could undertake such a bad PR situation.

I therefore doubt the full facts of this story and believe there was more to "gross indecency" than just merely being a gay.

Quite often animals, eunuchs and even men from Wiltshire were involved.
Perhaps then you should find out what the "facts" are before you comment

Report this post »

Atticus says...
2:21pm Fri 25 Jan 13

leobrighton wrote:
Algeria Touchshriek wrote:
I am surprised that this day and age the police could undertake such a bad PR situation.

I therefore doubt the full facts of this story and believe there was more to "gross indecency" than just merely being a gay.

Quite often animals, eunuchs and even men from Wiltshire were involved.
Perhaps then you should find out what the "facts" are before you comment
Agreed.

Report this post »

Crystal Ball says...
2:27pm Fri 25 Jan 13

So an accurate headline should read along the lines of "Police collect DNA from men previously convicted of gross indecency".

End of and would have been a non-story.

Report this post »

Chieftain11 says...
2:32pm Fri 25 Jan 13

The innocent have nothing to fear. If I had my way, we would all have our DNA recorded.

Report this post »

risingphoenix says...
2:54pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Chieftain11 wrote:
The innocent have nothing to fear. If I had my way, we would all have our DNA recorded.
Same old mantra...So if you've 'nothing to hide then I guess you won't be opposed to having cctv inside your house, or getting yourself 'chipped' so that your every movement is readily available?

Report this post »

Dan Gleballs says...
3:03pm Fri 25 Jan 13

risingphoenix wrote:
Chieftain11 wrote:
The innocent have nothing to fear. If I had my way, we would all have our DNA recorded.
Same old mantra...So if you've 'nothing to hide then I guess you won't be opposed to having cctv inside your house, or getting yourself 'chipped' so that your every movement is readily available?
Err

Having others watch you in your own home and knowing your exact whereabouts is a bit different to the police having your DNA!!!!!

Report this post »

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit says...
3:13pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Well they're all undesirables aren't they? Walking the streets or cruising around in their cars, eyeing you up and just making you feel uncomfortable. This story just re-enforces my views.

Not that I'm prejudiced mind, after all, some of my best friends are policemen ...

Report this post »

Number Six says...
4:15pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit wrote:
Well they're all undesirables aren't they? Walking the streets or cruising around in their cars, eyeing you up and just making you feel uncomfortable. This story just re-enforces my views.

Not that I'm prejudiced mind, after all, some of my best friends are policemen ...
Nice one

Report this post »

Oooh err says...
4:24pm Fri 25 Jan 13

As they say, "not all progress is good".

Report this post »

lorrie1 says...
4:24pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Just because someone is gay doesnt mean that they are child abusers or rapists

Report this post »

itsnotme says...
4:28pm Fri 25 Jan 13

"A spokesman said those contacted could have their DNA record destroyed if they requested." - Just like 1984, ruthless inflexible government,.

Report this post »

Oooh err says...
4:31pm Fri 25 Jan 13

itsnotme wrote:
"A spokesman said those contacted could have their DNA record destroyed if they requested." - Just like 1984, ruthless inflexible government,.
I quite enjoyed the early 80s!

Report this post »

BornInBrighton1968 says...
4:51pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Algeria Touchshriek wrote:
I am surprised that this day and age the police could undertake such a bad PR situation.

I therefore doubt the full facts of this story and believe there was more to "gross indecency" than just merely being a gay.

Quite often animals, eunuchs and even men from Wiltshire were involved.
And Welsh people too...

Report this post »

Old Ladys Gin says...
5:13pm Fri 25 Jan 13

I think the reference to Men from Wiltshire' may have gone over the heads of many.

Report this post »

brightonline says...
6:02pm Fri 25 Jan 13

The Argus could have found a better person to be photographed having their mouth swabbed - looks like he needs a trip to the dentist - or the hygienist!

Report this post »

leobrighton says...
6:09pm Fri 25 Jan 13

brightonline wrote:
The Argus could have found a better person to be photographed having their mouth swabbed - looks like he needs a trip to the dentist - or the hygienist!
Yes the pic is vile

Report this post »

Maxwell's Ghost says...
6:13pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Argus. Paragraph three in your report is astonishing.
Is it the editors position that a charge is outdated or the gay community? Is this story a comment piece?
Perhaps you could tell us why these men were charged and convicted because Sussex police are quite tolerant which is why we have dukes mound openly used for sexual activity by gay men therefore one can only assume there were other factors involved in the charges.

Report this post »

John Steed says...
6:18pm Fri 25 Jan 13

absolutely disgusting, these are SPENT convictions for crime that rightly or wrongly does not exist on the statute books anymore. I will wager they do not go round and knock on the door of every IC3 that has a spent conviction from before the days of mandatory DNA sampling in an attempt to clear up outstanding muggings, drug dealing crimes, street robberies and assaults etc etc, this is a clear and appalling instance of the falling of standards within the police. will the argus be so good as to interveiw the new police commissioner to get her opinion on the matter.

Report this post »

Hove Actually says...
6:31pm Fri 25 Jan 13

The three can have their DNA removed..........as soon as we have checked it against all outstanding crimes, parking tickets and anything else we damm we please, they only have to contact us and ask nicely

Report this post »

risingphoenix says...
6:58pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Dan Gleballs wrote:
risingphoenix wrote:
Chieftain11 wrote:
The innocent have nothing to fear. If I had my way, we would all have our DNA recorded.
Same old mantra...So if you've 'nothing to hide then I guess you won't be opposed to having cctv inside your house, or getting yourself 'chipped' so that your every movement is readily available?
Err

Having others watch you in your own home and knowing your exact whereabouts is a bit different to the police having your DNA!!!!!
But if you've 'nothing to hide', what's the problem?

Its actually all about privacy and our relationship with the state - If you've DONE nothing wrong, why be treated as a potential criminal?

Report this post »

Spx says...
7:06pm Fri 25 Jan 13

"Only following national guidelines" why not arrive at work, tell the chief super you don't need the car because you want to be a real policeman and walk around an area showing the inhabitants and businesses that you have their best interests at heart.

Report this post »

imnotpc says...
7:10pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit wrote:
Well they're all undesirables aren't they? Walking the streets or cruising around in their cars, eyeing you up and just making you feel uncomfortable. This story just re-enforces my views.

Not that I'm prejudiced mind, after all, some of my best friends are policemen ...
hahahahahaha

Report this post »

qm says...
7:44pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Ah yes . . . Wiltshire . . . where the men are men and the sheep run scared . . . . (I jest)

Report this post »

Tammy Flugh says...
7:59pm Fri 25 Jan 13

"Sussex Police confirmed three people had been contacted by officers but said all of the men then gave DNA “voluntarily”."
According to the story, if they hadn't "volunteered" they would have been arrested which means their DNA being taken without consent.

Report this post »

qm says...
8:28pm Fri 25 Jan 13

A Sussex Police spokesman said the force was following national guidelines – despite the Association of Chief Police Officers’ guidance saying forces “should not seek to obtain a DNA sample from subjects who only have this conviction on their record”.

So Sussex Police are making up their own law as they find convenient???

The exclusion in the above guidelines is very specific!

Report this post »

Hove Actually says...
8:36pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Chieftain11 wrote:
The innocent have nothing to fear. If I had my way, we would all have our DNA recorded.
WRONG WRONG WRONG
As soon as any government got this information they could not help themselves and would start to look at genetic links etc and then they would sell this information to insurers and loan companys, next it would be banning people from having children.
If you think this won't happen find out what it does with the information they get from the DVLA, Electrol register and Census

Report this post »

ron.1952 says...
9:12pm Fri 25 Jan 13

So many homophobes on here.


Ronny.

Report this post »

greenpaws says...
10:36pm Fri 25 Jan 13

If a person who only has the charge of gross indecency for a gay act, then one would be best advised to refuse even if arrested.

You should then make a complaint against false arrest and harassment and prejudice.

Stand up to bullies and the light will shine on them and the public will be behind you.

Report this post »

worthingite says...
11:01pm Fri 25 Jan 13

January 18th old news & not exclusive

http://www.pinknews.
co.uk/2013/01/18/pet
er-tatchell-more-gay
-men-are-being-force
d-to-give-police-the
ir-dna/

Report this post »

sussexguy says...
7:55am Sat 26 Jan 13

"But the force offered no apology for lumping the men in with rapists and child sex abusers in the search for offenders, or for any distress it may have caused."

Oh really? So their "crime" is as serious as rapists and child sex offenders? Oh grow up!

It looks like the local Gestapo are up to their old tricks again. They are obviously not concerned about the more serious crimes going on in our community, and must have time on their hands. And how much has this to do with targets, I wonder?

Report this post »

Baldseagull says...
8:40am Sat 26 Jan 13

Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit wrote:
Well they're all undesirables aren't they? Walking the streets or cruising around in their cars, eyeing you up and just making you feel uncomfortable. This story just re-enforces my views.

Not that I'm prejudiced mind, after all, some of my best friends are policemen ...
comment of the week.

Report this post »

Angryoldman says...
9:02am Sat 26 Jan 13

The new police commissioner is responsible for this attack on gay people and he should be sacked. I hope gay groups with a bit of clout bring this shallow person to book. Gross indecency was the charge that gay men were handed just for being in a loving relationship before 1967.
The commissioner obviously thinks this is still a crime. I will never trust the police again.

Report this post »

Morpheus says...
9:14am Sat 26 Jan 13

I don't like the inclusion of this crime in the DNA collection exercise, but to keep it in perspective their activity was a criminal offence at the time and they did know that, and if it was still an offence and they were charged now their DNA would be collected. However, it is a pity that the police did not take into account that this is no longer an offence when they started this exercise, which otherwise many people would consider to be sensible.

Report this post »

The internets wisest man says...
11:05am Sat 26 Jan 13

When one gets to my age you jump at every chance to have your civil liberties infringed.

Report this post »

hubby says...
12:28pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Once the police have your DNA they can put it anywhere they want to.

Report this post »

Sue De Nimes says...
1:07pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Argus. Paragraph three in your report is astonishing.
Is it the editors position that a charge is outdated or the gay community? Is this story a comment piece?
Perhaps you could tell us why these men were charged and convicted because Sussex police are quite tolerant which is why we have dukes mound openly used for sexual activity by gay men therefore one can only assume there were other factors involved in the charges.
Surely the police should be more concerned with upholding the law?

I personally don't think it is appropriate behaviour for anyone, homosexual or otherwise, to be hanging around having sex in bushes.

Report this post »

mimseycal says...
3:27pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Hove Actually wrote:
The three can have their DNA removed..........as soon as we have checked it against all outstanding crimes, parking tickets and anything else we damm we please, they only have to contact us and ask nicely
Disgusting isn't it. The samples taken purely on that outdated and now defunct charge should all be destroyed forthwith without requiring the individuals concerned requesting it.

Report this post »

imnotpc says...
8:04pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Sue De Nimes wrote:
Maxwell's Ghost wrote:
Argus. Paragraph three in your report is astonishing.
Is it the editors position that a charge is outdated or the gay community? Is this story a comment piece?
Perhaps you could tell us why these men were charged and convicted because Sussex police are quite tolerant which is why we have dukes mound openly used for sexual activity by gay men therefore one can only assume there were other factors involved in the charges.
Surely the police should be more concerned with upholding the law?

I personally don't think it is appropriate behaviour for anyone, homosexual or otherwise, to be hanging around having sex in bushes.
i know isn't it absolutely disgusting and perverted what goes on up there.

Report this post »

imnotpc says...
8:06pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Angryoldman wrote:
The new police commissioner is responsible for this attack on gay people and he should be sacked. I hope gay groups with a bit of clout bring this shallow person to book. Gross indecency was the charge that gay men were handed just for being in a loving relationship before 1967.
The commissioner obviously thinks this is still a crime. I will never trust the police again.
oh dear drama queen alert lol hahaha

Report this post »

Freeloaders says...
9:13pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Baldseagull wrote:
Jimmy Stewart's Imaginary Rabbit wrote:
Well they're all undesirables aren't they? Walking the streets or cruising around in their cars, eyeing you up and just making you feel uncomfortable. This story just re-enforces my views.

Not that I'm prejudiced mind, after all, some of my best friends are policemen ...
comment of the week.
Got to be the post of the year.The police in Brighton are a joke.Lets face it we all know deep down they only go after the easy tarkets.They do nothing to stop the real crime in the city.Plus iv lost count about the amount of them in the Argus over the last 12mths for being upto know good.But most still keep their jobs like the seageant this week in the Argus.You can also be sure they keep their pensions.

Report this post »

martyt says...
1:11pm Sun 27 Jan 13

Hove Actually wrote:
Chieftain11 wrote:
The innocent have nothing to fear. If I had my way, we would all have our DNA recorded.
WRONG WRONG WRONG
As soon as any government got this information they could not help themselves and would start to look at genetic links etc and then they would sell this information to insurers and loan companys, next it would be banning people from having children.
If you think this won't happen find out what it does with the information they get from the DVLA, Electrol register and Census
some people should be banned from having children

Report this post »

martyt says...
1:16pm Sun 27 Jan 13

Angryoldman wrote:
The new police commissioner is responsible for this attack on gay people and he should be sacked. I hope gay groups with a bit of clout bring this shallow person to book. Gross indecency was the charge that gay men were handed just for being in a loving relationship before 1967.
The commissioner obviously thinks this is still a crime. I will never trust the police again.
is that not confused old man ,is the commissioner not a she ,but your post is typical of posts on here what you dont know you just make up

Report this post »

imnotpc says...
6:32pm Sun 27 Jan 13

ron.1952 wrote:
So many homophobes on here.


Ronny.
yawn zzzzzzzzzzz

Report this post »

imnotpc says...
7:11pm Wed 30 Jan 13

ron.1952 wrote:
So many homophobes on here.


Ronny.
yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz lol

Report this post »

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