Royal Marine convicted of murder named as Brighton's Alexander Blackman

The Argus: Royal Marine convicted of murder named as Brighton's Alexander Blackman Royal Marine convicted of murder named as Brighton's Alexander Blackman

A Royal Marine who faces a life sentence for murdering an injured Taliban fighter is from Brighton, The Argus understands.

Sergeant Alexander Wayne Blackman, whose name has been made public for the first time fol- lowing a court ruling, will learn his fate today.

On November 8 a court martial board found the 39-year-old guilty of murdering the insurgent – who had been seriously wounded in an attack by an Apache helicopter – in Helmand more than two years ago.

Blackman had 15 years’ experience in the forces, after joining in 1998, and was in charge of Command Post (CP) Omar in the Helmand province during Operation Herrick 14 in 2011.

It is believed Blackman’s mother still lives in Brighton after the death of his father two years ago.

The Royal Marine also has other close family members in the Hastings area, The Argus understands.

Blackman was considered a safe pair of hands by his superiors and at 6ft 3in he has been described as a physically imposing Marine who always led from the front. 

An expert in heavy weapons, including machine guns, he was credited with building good relations with the local population and was friendly with a mullah who lived close to CP Omar.

His role in Afghanistan also included taking part in shuras – meetings with community leaders and elders.

Prior to a video of the murder coming to light, Blackman was being considered for promotion to Colour Sergeant.

He shot the insurgent in the chest but said he believed the victim was already dead and he was taking out his anger on a corpse.

He has said he felt ashamed at his lack of self-control, describing it as “a stupid lack of self-control and lapse in judgment”.

The shooting happened five months into an arduous six-month tour of Helmand province.

During his evidence at court Blackman, who denied murder, confirmed he was telling the truth about believing the insurgent to be dead and agreed the shooting was a “spur of the moment decision because of pent-up emotions”.

The killing was captured on a camera mounted on the helmet of another serviceman, known as Marine B.

As the unknown insurgent lies on the floor convulsing and struggling for breath, Sergeant Black- man says: “There you are. Shuffle off this mortal coil you c***. It’s nothing you wouldn’t do to us.”

Previously known as Marine A, his name was disclosed following a ruling by Lord Chief Justice Lord Thomas, Mr Justice Tugendhat and Mr Justice Holroyde, which lifted an anonymity order preventing him being identified.
 

The decision by the three judges followed a hearing last week during which argument was made on behalf of the servicemen that their lives would be at “real and immediate” risk if their names were released.

Chris Terrill, a filmmaker from Brighton, was embedded with the Royal Marines in Afghanistan at the time of the incident.

He said judges should take Blackman’s service into account and should not “lock him up and throw away the key”.

He said: “Nobody can condone what happened, but you have to see it in the context of frontline warfare.

“It was technically murder but it was done in the heat of battle.

“This was a man who had endured the most awful conditions for months. “That’s bound to affect anyone’s moral compass.”

 

 

 

Comments (36)

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4:25pm Thu 5 Dec 13

PETE OF QUEENS PARK says...

I do not know Mr Blackman but I know what he done was wrong in the eyes of the law but I wonder how many times it has happened to our brave lads and nothing has been done to them if our country wants to go down the tooth for a tooth road lets see some justice shown for the people who have been maimed by some of the atrocities over the past few years in this country names not mentioned.
I do not know Mr Blackman but I know what he done was wrong in the eyes of the law but I wonder how many times it has happened to our brave lads and nothing has been done to them if our country wants to go down the tooth for a tooth road lets see some justice shown for the people who have been maimed by some of the atrocities over the past few years in this country names not mentioned. PETE OF QUEENS PARK

4:40pm Thu 5 Dec 13

spa301 says...

What he did is morally wrong but we always seem to expect our forces to act as saints when facing a vicious and merciless enemy.
Had this soldier been injured and captured by the Taliban you can guarantee he wouldn't have received a quick end. War is a foul, dirty business.
What he did is morally wrong but we always seem to expect our forces to act as saints when facing a vicious and merciless enemy. Had this soldier been injured and captured by the Taliban you can guarantee he wouldn't have received a quick end. War is a foul, dirty business. spa301

4:50pm Thu 5 Dec 13

Number Six says...

spa301 wrote:
What he did is morally wrong but we always seem to expect our forces to act as saints when facing a vicious and merciless enemy.
Had this soldier been injured and captured by the Taliban you can guarantee he wouldn't have received a quick end. War is a foul, dirty business.
Agreed. That's what makes us better than them!
[quote][p][bold]spa301[/bold] wrote: What he did is morally wrong but we always seem to expect our forces to act as saints when facing a vicious and merciless enemy. Had this soldier been injured and captured by the Taliban you can guarantee he wouldn't have received a quick end. War is a foul, dirty business.[/p][/quote]Agreed. That's what makes us better than them! Number Six

5:01pm Thu 5 Dec 13

Indigatio says...

I'm in two minds about the conviction but they should never have allowed him to have been named. In that aspect the law is an ****!
I'm in two minds about the conviction but they should never have allowed him to have been named. In that aspect the law is an ****! Indigatio

5:08pm Thu 5 Dec 13

monkeymoo says...

Two things...

1. The power of words:
If he had said ' CLEAR' instead of 'Shuffle off this mortal coil you c**t'... Then there would be no issue whatsoever. He would simply be making sure the ENEMY SOLDIER was unable to release a booby trap / shoot from a concealed weapon, at him or his comrades.

2. I doubt many people that will leave a comment here have ACTUALLY been to war themselves. Unless they have (yes, I have), then i am afraid it is all to easy to 'judge' from your armchairs.
YOU have not seen the corpses of your friends hung from trees.
YOU have not seen your friends slaughtered, and had their body parts left for you to find.
YOU have not had to deal with the possibility of your death every minute of every day.
YOU are not trained to kill in the most viscous of ways, then be expected to 'turn it off' when THEY want!

I am not saying what he did was right....
I am just saying, unless you have lived and faced the same..Do not judge.
Two things... 1. The power of words: If he had said ' CLEAR' instead of 'Shuffle off this mortal coil you c**t'... Then there would be no issue whatsoever. He would simply be making sure the ENEMY SOLDIER was unable to release a booby trap / shoot from a concealed weapon, at him or his comrades. 2. I doubt many people that will leave a comment here have ACTUALLY been to war themselves. Unless they have (yes, I have), then i am afraid it is all to easy to 'judge' from your armchairs. YOU have not seen the corpses of your friends hung from trees. YOU have not seen your friends slaughtered, and had their body parts left for you to find. YOU have not had to deal with the possibility of your death every minute of every day. YOU are not trained to kill in the most viscous of ways, then be expected to 'turn it off' when THEY want! I am not saying what he did was right.... I am just saying, unless you have lived and faced the same..Do not judge. monkeymoo

5:39pm Thu 5 Dec 13

whoee! says...

Good! shame he didn't do it to loads more of the cowardly scum
Good! shame he didn't do it to loads more of the cowardly scum whoee!

5:47pm Thu 5 Dec 13

BrightonHoveboy says...

Disgraceful again. We British get the short straw again. He should never have been charged at all but these PC lefties do not care about the good only looking after the wasters
Disgraceful again. We British get the short straw again. He should never have been charged at all but these PC lefties do not care about the good only looking after the wasters BrightonHoveboy

7:21pm Thu 5 Dec 13

John Steed says...

http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/British_For
ces_casualties_in_Af
ghanistan_since_2001


446 uk personel have died in afghanistan since 2001, the injured lists are in the thousands, the seriously injured are in the high hundreds. this man has served faithfully both his country and us its citizens, allowing us to sleep safe at night whilst his life has been at risk across half the planet. until now he had an exempary service record
murder cannot be condoned what ever the circumstance, no matter who the victim is, even if its scum who was trying to kill as was the case here, and part of a terrorist movement that frequently kills and maims and has no thought for the geneva convention
the legal system will be going into uncharted waters sentencing this man, but meanwhile there is a person somewhere who belatedly found the video in the head cam and acted upon it, a thoughly decent thing to do, sadly the"Nelson Eye" was not used to veiw it, or the delete button used to consine it to the trash bin of history.
http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/British_For ces_casualties_in_Af ghanistan_since_2001 446 uk personel have died in afghanistan since 2001, the injured lists are in the thousands, the seriously injured are in the high hundreds. this man has served faithfully both his country and us its citizens, allowing us to sleep safe at night whilst his life has been at risk across half the planet. until now he had an exempary service record murder cannot be condoned what ever the circumstance, no matter who the victim is, even if its scum who was trying to kill as was the case here, and part of a terrorist movement that frequently kills and maims and has no thought for the geneva convention the legal system will be going into uncharted waters sentencing this man, but meanwhile there is a person somewhere who belatedly found the video in the head cam and acted upon it, a thoughly decent thing to do, sadly the"Nelson Eye" was not used to veiw it, or the delete button used to consine it to the trash bin of history. John Steed

8:05pm Thu 5 Dec 13

All 9 of me says...

John Steed wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.

org/wiki/British_For

ces_casualties_in_Af

ghanistan_since_2001



446 uk personel have died in afghanistan since 2001, the injured lists are in the thousands, the seriously injured are in the high hundreds. this man has served faithfully both his country and us its citizens, allowing us to sleep safe at night whilst his life has been at risk across half the planet. until now he had an exempary service record
murder cannot be condoned what ever the circumstance, no matter who the victim is, even if its scum who was trying to kill as was the case here, and part of a terrorist movement that frequently kills and maims and has no thought for the geneva convention
the legal system will be going into uncharted waters sentencing this man, but meanwhile there is a person somewhere who belatedly found the video in the head cam and acted upon it, a thoughly decent thing to do, sadly the"Nelson Eye" was not used to veiw it, or the delete button used to consine it to the trash bin of history.
The figures from the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) have been added to the civilian casualty monitoring page. They show a continued upward trend with 3,021 fatalities and 4,507 injuries documented during 2011. The reporting of estimates for civilian injuries is a welcome addition to the previously reported fatality estimates. These figures bring the total civilian casualty estimate for the war since 2007 to 24,295.


A slight imbalance.
Nobody cares who wins the war when they are dead.

http://www.casualty-
monitor.org/2012/03/
civilian-casualty-da
ta-for-afghanistan.h
tml
[quote][p][bold]John Steed[/bold] wrote: http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/British_For ces_casualties_in_Af ghanistan_since_2001 446 uk personel have died in afghanistan since 2001, the injured lists are in the thousands, the seriously injured are in the high hundreds. this man has served faithfully both his country and us its citizens, allowing us to sleep safe at night whilst his life has been at risk across half the planet. until now he had an exempary service record murder cannot be condoned what ever the circumstance, no matter who the victim is, even if its scum who was trying to kill as was the case here, and part of a terrorist movement that frequently kills and maims and has no thought for the geneva convention the legal system will be going into uncharted waters sentencing this man, but meanwhile there is a person somewhere who belatedly found the video in the head cam and acted upon it, a thoughly decent thing to do, sadly the"Nelson Eye" was not used to veiw it, or the delete button used to consine it to the trash bin of history.[/p][/quote]The figures from the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) have been added to the civilian casualty monitoring page. They show a continued upward trend with 3,021 fatalities and 4,507 injuries documented during 2011. The reporting of estimates for civilian injuries is a welcome addition to the previously reported fatality estimates. These figures bring the total civilian casualty estimate for the war since 2007 to 24,295. A slight imbalance. Nobody cares who wins the war when they are dead. http://www.casualty- monitor.org/2012/03/ civilian-casualty-da ta-for-afghanistan.h tml All 9 of me

8:16pm Thu 5 Dec 13

monkeymoo says...

John Steed wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.

org/wiki/British_For

ces_casualties_in_Af

ghanistan_since_2001



446 uk personel have died in afghanistan since 2001, the injured lists are in the thousands, the seriously injured are in the high hundreds. this man has served faithfully both his country and us its citizens, allowing us to sleep safe at night whilst his life has been at risk across half the planet. until now he had an exempary service record
murder cannot be condoned what ever the circumstance, no matter who the victim is, even if its scum who was trying to kill as was the case here, and part of a terrorist movement that frequently kills and maims and has no thought for the geneva convention
the legal system will be going into uncharted waters sentencing this man, but meanwhile there is a person somewhere who belatedly found the video in the head cam and acted upon it, a thoughly decent thing to do, sadly the"Nelson Eye" was not used to veiw it, or the delete button used to consine it to the trash bin of history.
Interesting points and figures.
If i may give you some back.....

1,300 UK personnel have been killed in Northern Ireland so far.
106,000 UK personnel have been injured in Northern Ireland so far

The man who openly admits his involvement, and by many has been linked directly to the murders of some......
Is welcomed into politics, (and Downing Street for tea!), and seems to have NO CHARGES brought against him for anything.....
I wonder why?

Can Martin McGuinness please answer this question!?
[quote][p][bold]John Steed[/bold] wrote: http://en.wikipedia. org/wiki/British_For ces_casualties_in_Af ghanistan_since_2001 446 uk personel have died in afghanistan since 2001, the injured lists are in the thousands, the seriously injured are in the high hundreds. this man has served faithfully both his country and us its citizens, allowing us to sleep safe at night whilst his life has been at risk across half the planet. until now he had an exempary service record murder cannot be condoned what ever the circumstance, no matter who the victim is, even if its scum who was trying to kill as was the case here, and part of a terrorist movement that frequently kills and maims and has no thought for the geneva convention the legal system will be going into uncharted waters sentencing this man, but meanwhile there is a person somewhere who belatedly found the video in the head cam and acted upon it, a thoughly decent thing to do, sadly the"Nelson Eye" was not used to veiw it, or the delete button used to consine it to the trash bin of history.[/p][/quote]Interesting points and figures. If i may give you some back..... 1,300 UK personnel have been killed in Northern Ireland so far. 106,000 UK personnel have been injured in Northern Ireland so far The man who openly admits his involvement, and by many has been linked directly to the murders of some...... Is welcomed into politics, (and Downing Street for tea!), and seems to have NO CHARGES brought against him for anything..... I wonder why? Can Martin McGuinness please answer this question!? monkeymoo

8:17pm Thu 5 Dec 13

PorkBoat says...

Prosecute the politicians and businessmen who started this stupid "war". They are the ones ultimately responsible. Bring our Armed Forces home and send them to Parliament and The City, and they can clean up the nest of vermin good and proper.
Prosecute the politicians and businessmen who started this stupid "war". They are the ones ultimately responsible. Bring our Armed Forces home and send them to Parliament and The City, and they can clean up the nest of vermin good and proper. PorkBoat

8:25pm Thu 5 Dec 13

medianscore says...

If we had fought Hitler with one hand tied behind our backs we would have lost WW2. Shooting that worthless piece of Taliban scum was a small loss to the world.
If we had fought Hitler with one hand tied behind our backs we would have lost WW2. Shooting that worthless piece of Taliban scum was a small loss to the world. medianscore

9:17pm Thu 5 Dec 13

westside says...

Last night on sky i watched a programme about US troops in kandahar . to view what these and our troops go through is eye opening to see people with body parts blown off and dead really shook me up. while i don,t condone what this soldier has done he should never have been charged.
Last night on sky i watched a programme about US troops in kandahar . to view what these and our troops go through is eye opening to see people with body parts blown off and dead really shook me up. while i don,t condone what this soldier has done he should never have been charged. westside

10:09pm Thu 5 Dec 13

greeg2 says...

medianscore wrote:
If we had fought Hitler with one hand tied behind our backs we would have lost WW2. Shooting that worthless piece of Taliban scum was a small loss to the world.
That means he's no better than the 2 lunatics that murdered Lee Rigby.How stupid are you?
[quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: If we had fought Hitler with one hand tied behind our backs we would have lost WW2. Shooting that worthless piece of Taliban scum was a small loss to the world.[/p][/quote]That means he's no better than the 2 lunatics that murdered Lee Rigby.How stupid are you? greeg2

10:49pm Thu 5 Dec 13

whoee! says...

greeg2 wrote:
medianscore wrote:
If we had fought Hitler with one hand tied behind our backs we would have lost WW2. Shooting that worthless piece of Taliban scum was a small loss to the world.
That means he's no better than the 2 lunatics that murdered Lee Rigby.How stupid are you?
NO how stupid are YOU!
[quote][p][bold]greeg2[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]medianscore[/bold] wrote: If we had fought Hitler with one hand tied behind our backs we would have lost WW2. Shooting that worthless piece of Taliban scum was a small loss to the world.[/p][/quote]That means he's no better than the 2 lunatics that murdered Lee Rigby.How stupid are you?[/p][/quote]NO how stupid are YOU! whoee!

10:55pm Thu 5 Dec 13

greeg2 says...

whoee! wrote:
Good! shame he didn't do it to loads more of the cowardly scum
I wasn't asking you,it's obviously your boyfriend's post !
[quote][p][bold]whoee![/bold] wrote: Good! shame he didn't do it to loads more of the cowardly scum[/p][/quote]I wasn't asking you,it's obviously your boyfriend's post ! greeg2

11:12pm Thu 5 Dec 13

Vigilia says...

"We go to liberate, not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag that will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.
There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.
Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there.
You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.
Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.
If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.
It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive. But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.
The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.
It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them.
If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.
If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform nor our nation."

These are the words addressed to his battalion by a commander in Iraq just before they were committed to battle. They reflect the true ethos and culture of the British Armed Forces.

What Sergeant Blackman did in Afghanistan was a war crime. What he did has brought shame on his corps and us as a nation. Seldom have I felt such despair in reading the transcripts of evidence in this case. I speak as one of them.
"We go to liberate, not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag that will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them. There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory. Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you. If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves. It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive. But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow. The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity. It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform nor our nation." These are the words addressed to his battalion by a commander in Iraq just before they were committed to battle. They reflect the true ethos and culture of the British Armed Forces. What Sergeant Blackman did in Afghanistan was a war crime. What he did has brought shame on his corps and us as a nation. Seldom have I felt such despair in reading the transcripts of evidence in this case. I speak as one of them. Vigilia

12:27am Fri 6 Dec 13

Seventh Circle says...

the difficulty is... in war... there are no rules
the difficulty is... in war... there are no rules Seventh Circle

3:28am Fri 6 Dec 13

monkeymoo says...

Vigilia wrote:
"We go to liberate, not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag that will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.
There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory.
Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there.
You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing.
Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.
If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.
It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive. But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.
The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.
It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them.
If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please.
If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform nor our nation."

These are the words addressed to his battalion by a commander in Iraq just before they were committed to battle. They reflect the true ethos and culture of the British Armed Forces.

What Sergeant Blackman did in Afghanistan was a war crime. What he did has brought shame on his corps and us as a nation. Seldom have I felt such despair in reading the transcripts of evidence in this case. I speak as one of them.
Well done for your 'cut and paste' skills.

SADLY YOU GOT IT COMPLETELY WRONG!

These are the words of Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins.
He gave this speech to the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish.
NOT
42 Commando Royal Marines.

What else might you have got wrong!?
[quote][p][bold]Vigilia[/bold] wrote: "We go to liberate, not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag that will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them. There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory. Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you. If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves. It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive. But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow. The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity. It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform nor our nation." These are the words addressed to his battalion by a commander in Iraq just before they were committed to battle. They reflect the true ethos and culture of the British Armed Forces. What Sergeant Blackman did in Afghanistan was a war crime. What he did has brought shame on his corps and us as a nation. Seldom have I felt such despair in reading the transcripts of evidence in this case. I speak as one of them.[/p][/quote]Well done for your 'cut and paste' skills. SADLY YOU GOT IT COMPLETELY WRONG! These are the words of Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins. He gave this speech to the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish. NOT 42 Commando Royal Marines. What else might you have got wrong!? monkeymoo

8:55am Fri 6 Dec 13

Vigilia says...

Monkeymoo,
"These are the words addressed to his battalion by a commander in Iraq just before they were committed to battle. They reflect the true ethos and culture of the British Armed Forces."

Where in those two sentences does it suggest he commanded a Royal Marine Commando? Please note the word "battalion."
Monkeymoo, "These are the words addressed to his battalion by a commander in Iraq just before they were committed to battle. They reflect the true ethos and culture of the British Armed Forces." Where in those two sentences does it suggest he commanded a Royal Marine Commando? Please note the word "battalion." Vigilia

9:34am Fri 6 Dec 13

mimseycal says...

Seventh Circle wrote:
the difficulty is... in war... there are no rules
There are plenty of rules. The trouble is that you train a load of men and women to shoot to kill. The trouble is you tell people that shooting to kill is the answer. The trouble is the battlefield as a reality as opposed to a training ground.

As sincere in his/her conviction the UK soldier may be so is the Taliban fighter and any other member of any other group who stands as an opposing force. The history of warfare attests to that.
[quote][p][bold]Seventh Circle[/bold] wrote: the difficulty is... in war... there are no rules[/p][/quote]There are plenty of rules. The trouble is that you train a load of men and women to shoot to kill. The trouble is you tell people that shooting to kill is the answer. The trouble is the battlefield as a reality as opposed to a training ground. As sincere in his/her conviction the UK soldier may be so is the Taliban fighter and any other member of any other group who stands as an opposing force. The history of warfare attests to that. mimseycal

9:57am Fri 6 Dec 13

clubrob6 says...

These brave soldiers face a enemy that does not respect any rules of war,they are sent into unjustified unwinnable wars by our leaders who quite simply just treat them as a number.Lots of our troops have been killed but then the government blocks any news on what really happened.This man should not have been named even the argus have given out where his family is.The people that should be locked up is the likes of BLAIR who took us to unwinnable unjustified wars with NO evidence killing probably hundreds of thousands.CAMERON is no better he is another one wanting to make a name for himself,when LEE RIGBY was murdered he went on holiday the very first day.Our troops are facing the likes of LEE RIGBYs murderers every day with zero support from our leaders.
These brave soldiers face a enemy that does not respect any rules of war,they are sent into unjustified unwinnable wars by our leaders who quite simply just treat them as a number.Lots of our troops have been killed but then the government blocks any news on what really happened.This man should not have been named even the argus have given out where his family is.The people that should be locked up is the likes of BLAIR who took us to unwinnable unjustified wars with NO evidence killing probably hundreds of thousands.CAMERON is no better he is another one wanting to make a name for himself,when LEE RIGBY was murdered he went on holiday the very first day.Our troops are facing the likes of LEE RIGBYs murderers every day with zero support from our leaders. clubrob6

10:36am Fri 6 Dec 13

mimseycal says...

clubrob6 wrote:
These brave soldiers face a enemy that does not respect any rules of war,they are sent into unjustified unwinnable wars by our leaders who quite simply just treat them as a number.Lots of our troops have been killed but then the government blocks any news on what really happened.This man should not have been named even the argus have given out where his family is.The people that should be locked up is the likes of BLAIR who took us to unwinnable unjustified wars with NO evidence killing probably hundreds of thousands.CAMERON is no better he is another one wanting to make a name for himself,when LEE RIGBY was murdered he went on holiday the very first day.Our troops are facing the likes of LEE RIGBYs murderers every day with zero support from our leaders.
The thing we need to understand is that as much as our soldiers face an enemy, so does the opposing force.

No fighter in warfare ever goes to the battlefield just for the chance to 'kick some butt'. They all go there because they believe they are facing an enemy.

In time we have faced the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles and the Saxons. The Vikings and the French, the Scots, the Welsh ... ourselves in civil wars such as the War of the Roses. The Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans ... the list goes on.

We have fought wars for various causes and in each case we were convinced we were the only brave ones, the singular righteous ones, the moral ones who obeyed the rules. But so did the opposing forces in each and every instance.
[quote][p][bold]clubrob6[/bold] wrote: These brave soldiers face a enemy that does not respect any rules of war,they are sent into unjustified unwinnable wars by our leaders who quite simply just treat them as a number.Lots of our troops have been killed but then the government blocks any news on what really happened.This man should not have been named even the argus have given out where his family is.The people that should be locked up is the likes of BLAIR who took us to unwinnable unjustified wars with NO evidence killing probably hundreds of thousands.CAMERON is no better he is another one wanting to make a name for himself,when LEE RIGBY was murdered he went on holiday the very first day.Our troops are facing the likes of LEE RIGBYs murderers every day with zero support from our leaders.[/p][/quote]The thing we need to understand is that as much as our soldiers face an enemy, so does the opposing force. No fighter in warfare ever goes to the battlefield just for the chance to 'kick some butt'. They all go there because they believe they are facing an enemy. In time we have faced the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles and the Saxons. The Vikings and the French, the Scots, the Welsh ... ourselves in civil wars such as the War of the Roses. The Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans ... the list goes on. We have fought wars for various causes and in each case we were convinced we were the only brave ones, the singular righteous ones, the moral ones who obeyed the rules. But so did the opposing forces in each and every instance. mimseycal

10:41am Fri 6 Dec 13

The Real Phil says...

Putting soldiers up on such charges is a joke. The squaddie scum that murdered "kidso" Reiley was sentenced to life, and served 2 years on full pay before being released and returned to his unit.
It's a bit of a daft idea to put guns in the hands of people who really just want to kill.
Putting soldiers up on such charges is a joke. The squaddie scum that murdered "kidso" Reiley was sentenced to life, and served 2 years on full pay before being released and returned to his unit. It's a bit of a daft idea to put guns in the hands of people who really just want to kill. The Real Phil

12:21pm Fri 6 Dec 13

mgeden says...

Why are the liberal fringe always trying to put our forces down.
This Brave soldier did something unplesant to a member of the taliban that would have thourght nothing of doing the same to him if the boot was on the other foot. Is anybody going to charge members of the taliban for the atrocities they commit on the Afgan people or to our troops or those of other countries - don't think so.
This soldier should never have been charged, he was doing what hge was trained to do - in fact he carried out a humane service by preventing a piece of scum from suffering longer than it had to.
Why are the liberal fringe always trying to put our forces down. This Brave soldier did something unplesant to a member of the taliban that would have thourght nothing of doing the same to him if the boot was on the other foot. Is anybody going to charge members of the taliban for the atrocities they commit on the Afgan people or to our troops or those of other countries - don't think so. This soldier should never have been charged, he was doing what hge was trained to do - in fact he carried out a humane service by preventing a piece of scum from suffering longer than it had to. mgeden

12:48pm Fri 6 Dec 13

true-brightonian says...

The British invaded Afghanistan in the name of Human Rights and Rule of Law. If British and American soldiers are unable to obey their own laws, then they need to be punished. A war crime is a war crime, even more so when it is carried out by soldiers who are supposed to be there in order to impose Democracy on the people of Afghanistan. If British soldiers are unable to do this and shoot to kill based on feeling, then it seems they are little better then terrorists. Apologists for British war crimes should be ashamed to try and pretend this is anything but murder. Hopefully one day those who ordered these troops into battle will also face their Day of Judgement.
The British invaded Afghanistan in the name of Human Rights and Rule of Law. If British and American soldiers are unable to obey their own laws, then they need to be punished. A war crime is a war crime, even more so when it is carried out by soldiers who are supposed to be there in order to impose Democracy on the people of Afghanistan. If British soldiers are unable to do this and shoot to kill based on feeling, then it seems they are little better then terrorists. Apologists for British war crimes should be ashamed to try and pretend this is anything but murder. Hopefully one day those who ordered these troops into battle will also face their Day of Judgement. true-brightonian

12:53pm Fri 6 Dec 13

mimseycal says...

mgeden wrote:
Why are the liberal fringe always trying to put our forces down.
This Brave soldier did something unplesant to a member of the taliban that would have thourght nothing of doing the same to him if the boot was on the other foot. Is anybody going to charge members of the taliban for the atrocities they commit on the Afgan people or to our troops or those of other countries - don't think so.
This soldier should never have been charged, he was doing what hge was trained to do - in fact he carried out a humane service by preventing a piece of scum from suffering longer than it had to.
Why is it that some people seem incapable from distinguishing between the act and the actor.

I've been on the battlefield. I close my eyes and I still smell the stench of fear, blood, sweat and vomit, hear the cacophony of mortar shells, grenades and bullets. I can still taste the bile of battle fever. I still carry the scars ... physical as well as emotional.

You say that Sergeant Alexander Wayne Blackman carried out a humane service by pulling a wounded enemy from the battlefield and carrying out a private execution. I hold he acted whilst in the heat of battle fever. He lost control ...

It isn't the soldier, regardless of side, that is to blame for the travesty of warfare. It is as ever the fault of people who hold that war is an answer.
[quote][p][bold]mgeden[/bold] wrote: Why are the liberal fringe always trying to put our forces down. This Brave soldier did something unplesant to a member of the taliban that would have thourght nothing of doing the same to him if the boot was on the other foot. Is anybody going to charge members of the taliban for the atrocities they commit on the Afgan people or to our troops or those of other countries - don't think so. This soldier should never have been charged, he was doing what hge was trained to do - in fact he carried out a humane service by preventing a piece of scum from suffering longer than it had to.[/p][/quote]Why is it that some people seem incapable from distinguishing between the act and the actor. I've been on the battlefield. I close my eyes and I still smell the stench of fear, blood, sweat and vomit, hear the cacophony of mortar shells, grenades and bullets. I can still taste the bile of battle fever. I still carry the scars ... physical as well as emotional. You say that Sergeant Alexander Wayne Blackman carried out a humane service by pulling a wounded enemy from the battlefield and carrying out a private execution. I hold he acted whilst in the heat of battle fever. He lost control ... It isn't the soldier, regardless of side, that is to blame for the travesty of warfare. It is as ever the fault of people who hold that war is an answer. mimseycal

1:17pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Farawaynow says...

My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward.

The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans.

How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan.

All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy.

Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach?

No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them.

All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq.

British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work.

As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue.
My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward. The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans. How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan. All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy. Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach? No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them. All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq. British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work. As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue. Farawaynow

2:22pm Fri 6 Dec 13

spa301 says...

Farawaynow wrote:
My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward. The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans. How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan. All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy. Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach? No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them. All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq. British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work. As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue.
If anything's sickening it's you and your warped world view. This Marine may well be many things, but a coward? I think not.
[quote][p][bold]Farawaynow[/bold] wrote: My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward. The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans. How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan. All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy. Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach? No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them. All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq. British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work. As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue.[/p][/quote]If anything's sickening it's you and your warped world view. This Marine may well be many things, but a coward? I think not. spa301

10:25pm Fri 6 Dec 13

Ringmer Rich says...

Farawaynow wrote:
My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward.

The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans.

How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan.

All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy.

Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach?

No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them.

All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq.

British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work.

As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue.
You are a complete plank. In **** situations,**** happens. These people put their lives on the line for us everyday. If all people thought like you, we'd be having this conversation in german. The soldiers do not get to choose which war they will fight in. I personally abhor the idea of people killing each other, but I will back our armed forces100%. The guilt lies with the politicians.
[quote][p][bold]Farawaynow[/bold] wrote: My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward. The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans. How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan. All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy. Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach? No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them. All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq. British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work. As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue.[/p][/quote]You are a complete plank. In **** situations,**** happens. These people put their lives on the line for us everyday. If all people thought like you, we'd be having this conversation in german. The soldiers do not get to choose which war they will fight in. I personally abhor the idea of people killing each other, but I will back our armed forces100%. The guilt lies with the politicians. Ringmer Rich

11:03pm Fri 6 Dec 13

mimseycal says...

Ringmer Rich wrote:
Farawaynow wrote:
My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward.

The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans.

How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan.

All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy.

Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach?

No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them.

All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq.

British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work.

As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue.
You are a complete plank. In **** situations,**** happens. These people put their lives on the line for us everyday. If all people thought like you, we'd be having this conversation in german. The soldiers do not get to choose which war they will fight in. I personally abhor the idea of people killing each other, but I will back our armed forces100%. The guilt lies with the politicians.
Which is exactly what Farawaynow in his rather clumsy way is saying. The guilt does ultimately lay on the doorstep of those politicians and their bank rollers, big finance.

Where Farawaynow is getting a tad confused is that he fails to understand that there is a difference between signing up to defend your country and being sold out by your country's government to fight for the fat cats of industry.
[quote][p][bold]Ringmer Rich[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Farawaynow[/bold] wrote: My country wrong or right - how sickening, why did I lose two uncles fighting against the Fascist bully boys only to see posters here condoning the act of a coward. The Taliban are a creation of centuries of Christian brutality which began with the destruction of Al-Andaluz and it's universities that were centuries ahead of the primitive Aryan north Europeans. How are the Taliban a threat to the UK - so what are we there for at the behest of our American masters - to protect oil pipelines from the former Soviet republics and the vast mineral wealth in Afghanistan. All wars are economic wars and have sod all to do with freedom or democracy. Do the Taliban have armoured personnel carriers/tanks/jet fighters/attack helicoptors which wounded this particular Taliban who had zero chance against a foe out of his reach? No, they have none of these and still the bully boys cannot beat them. All these soldiers joined the armed forces of their own free will, they choose to fight in a totally unjust war as they did in Iraq. British soldiers have died fighting for the moneymen in the USA and the UK - more fool them. They could just have easily resigned and done a decent job of work. As long as there are peasants willing to die for the elites this stupidity will continue.[/p][/quote]You are a complete plank. In **** situations,**** happens. These people put their lives on the line for us everyday. If all people thought like you, we'd be having this conversation in german. The soldiers do not get to choose which war they will fight in. I personally abhor the idea of people killing each other, but I will back our armed forces100%. The guilt lies with the politicians.[/p][/quote]Which is exactly what Farawaynow in his rather clumsy way is saying. The guilt does ultimately lay on the doorstep of those politicians and their bank rollers, big finance. Where Farawaynow is getting a tad confused is that he fails to understand that there is a difference between signing up to defend your country and being sold out by your country's government to fight for the fat cats of industry. mimseycal

11:59pm Fri 6 Dec 13

PorkBoat says...

mimseycal says...

Where Farawaynow is getting a tad confused is that he fails to understand that there is a difference between signing up to defend your country and being sold out by your country's government to fight for the fat cats of industry.

Mimseycal, I hope you have a strong drink to hand, because I have to say...I completely agree with you.
mimseycal says... Where Farawaynow is getting a tad confused is that he fails to understand that there is a difference between signing up to defend your country and being sold out by your country's government to fight for the fat cats of industry. Mimseycal, I hope you have a strong drink to hand, because I have to say...I completely agree with you. PorkBoat

12:18am Sat 7 Dec 13

PorkBoat says...

Made a scapegoat, and jailed by The Establishment, who lied to him, and led him to believe he was serving his country for a good cause, and helping the people in Afghanistan. Instead, they sent him to risk his life for their greed and corruption.
Made a scapegoat, and jailed by The Establishment, who lied to him, and led him to believe he was serving his country for a good cause, and helping the people in Afghanistan. Instead, they sent him to risk his life for their greed and corruption. PorkBoat

12:20am Sat 7 Dec 13

PorkBoat says...

PorkBoat wrote:
Prosecute the politicians and businessmen who started this stupid "war". They are the ones ultimately responsible. Bring our Armed Forces home and send them to Parliament and The City, and they can clean up the nest of vermin good and proper.
Maybe they can do a "Colonel Ghaddafi" with their bayonets on some of the worst offenders. Here's hoping.
[quote][p][bold]PorkBoat[/bold] wrote: Prosecute the politicians and businessmen who started this stupid "war". They are the ones ultimately responsible. Bring our Armed Forces home and send them to Parliament and The City, and they can clean up the nest of vermin good and proper.[/p][/quote]Maybe they can do a "Colonel Ghaddafi" with their bayonets on some of the worst offenders. Here's hoping. PorkBoat

8:53am Sun 8 Dec 13

evon says...

Come on Argus get behind this man start a PETITION
Come on Argus get behind this man start a PETITION evon

10:03am Sun 8 Dec 13

mimseycal says...

evon wrote:
Come on Argus get behind this man start a PETITION
If you feel that strongly about it ... Start one yourself.
[quote][p][bold]evon[/bold] wrote: Come on Argus get behind this man start a PETITION[/p][/quote]If you feel that strongly about it ... Start one yourself. mimseycal

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