The ArgusTalking Point: How would you solve the Brighton and Hove bins crisis? (From The Argus)

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Talking Point: How would you solve the Brighton and Hove bins crisis?

The Argus: Talking Point: How would you solve the Brighton and Hove bins crisis? Talking Point: How would you solve the Brighton and Hove bins crisis?

Brighton and Hove householders will have struggled to get their rubbish and recycling out in this morning's rain - with no guarantee it will even have been collected. 

The delays in refuse collections have now been rumbling on since before Christmas, and show no signs of being resolved. 

At the heart of the problem is a new shift pattern implemented amid a raft of cost-cutting measures, which the union says is impractical.

This has been exacerbated by defective refuse trucks being taken off the roads

Tomorrow, Brighton and Hove City Council will discuss the impasse, as well as the issue of CityClean refuse workers being paid £1,200 productivity bonuses for completing their rounds. 

With no sign of the problems being resolved in the near future, we would like to know what you would do to get the city's rubbisn collected on time once more. 

Let us know in the comments below. 

 

 

Comments (41)

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11:39am Wed 29 Jan 14

BornInBrighton1968 says...

1) Remove Brighton Green council from power.
2) Replace them with a group of 10 year-old children, who would no doubt do a far better job of running the city than the incapable, incompetent Green council ever will...
1) Remove Brighton Green council from power. 2) Replace them with a group of 10 year-old children, who would no doubt do a far better job of running the city than the incapable, incompetent Green council ever will... BornInBrighton1968
  • Score: 67

11:42am Wed 29 Jan 14

BornInBrighton1968 says...

Having said that, even my cat would probably do a far better job of running Brighton than the wretched, incompetent Green council ever could
Having said that, even my cat would probably do a far better job of running Brighton than the wretched, incompetent Green council ever could BornInBrighton1968
  • Score: 37

11:44am Wed 29 Jan 14

The Prophet of Doom says...

How about BHCC doing the job they are supposed to and operating an efficient and reliable service? And not just the refuse either.

Is that too much to ask from the tax paying residents of the town of the administration that is there to serve them, not themselves.
How about BHCC doing the job they are supposed to and operating an efficient and reliable service? And not just the refuse either. Is that too much to ask from the tax paying residents of the town of the administration that is there to serve them, not themselves. The Prophet of Doom
  • Score: 39

11:49am Wed 29 Jan 14

Fight_Back says...

Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work ? Or would that make council officials and consultants look stupid.
Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work ? Or would that make council officials and consultants look stupid. Fight_Back
  • Score: 41

11:51am Wed 29 Jan 14

Indigatio says...

Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.
Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none. Indigatio
  • Score: 45

11:58am Wed 29 Jan 14

westpiergone says...

Take it to Kitty-craps garden,it gets moved pretty quick from there,it did in the bin strike !
Take it to Kitty-craps garden,it gets moved pretty quick from there,it did in the bin strike ! westpiergone
  • Score: 23

12:13pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Drummer2 says...

Spend more money on 'dull' council services and less on vanity projects like i360 tower and ruining the Pavilion Gardens and cafe....
Spend more money on 'dull' council services and less on vanity projects like i360 tower and ruining the Pavilion Gardens and cafe.... Drummer2
  • Score: 39

12:24pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Daisyb2uk says...

What was so wrong with the service in the 50s and 60s when 'dustmen' walked up driveways to collect our metal bins, walked to the truck, (in our case parked at the end of our cul de sac) and delivered our bins back where they found them?
What was so wrong with the service in the 50s and 60s when 'dustmen' walked up driveways to collect our metal bins, walked to the truck, (in our case parked at the end of our cul de sac) and delivered our bins back where they found them? Daisyb2uk
  • Score: 32

12:29pm Wed 29 Jan 14

her professional says...

Indigatio wrote:
Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.
Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start.
[quote][p][bold]Indigatio[/bold] wrote: Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.[/p][/quote]Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start. her professional
  • Score: -17

12:38pm Wed 29 Jan 14

gheese77 says...

My bins have been emptied just fine, no problems in West Hove
My bins have been emptied just fine, no problems in West Hove gheese77
  • Score: -9

12:42pm Wed 29 Jan 14

RottingdeanRant says...

gheese77 wrote:
My bins have been emptied just fine, no problems in West Hove
No problem for us either!
[quote][p][bold]gheese77[/bold] wrote: My bins have been emptied just fine, no problems in West Hove[/p][/quote]No problem for us either! RottingdeanRant
  • Score: -5

12:56pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Roundbill says...

Mister Kitcat, I know you monitor Argus articles about your party, and I'm sure you're an honourable man. As a matter of honour, when will you resign?
Mister Kitcat, I know you monitor Argus articles about your party, and I'm sure you're an honourable man. As a matter of honour, when will you resign? Roundbill
  • Score: 27

1:02pm Wed 29 Jan 14

onlyme says...

the most sensible suggestion I have seen mentioned over this debacle of the past weeks/months/years (delete as appropiate) is

'Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work '

surely scrapping current rota and starting again makes sense!
the most sensible suggestion I have seen mentioned over this debacle of the past weeks/months/years (delete as appropiate) is 'Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work ' surely scrapping current rota and starting again makes sense! onlyme
  • Score: 28

1:11pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Phani Tikkala says...

No doubt the Green muppet/puppet HJarrs will be along soon to say that B&HCC's refuse service is the best in the country
No doubt the Green muppet/puppet HJarrs will be along soon to say that B&HCC's refuse service is the best in the country Phani Tikkala
  • Score: 19

1:25pm Wed 29 Jan 14

fredflintstone1 says...

This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities.

If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to.

Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update?

Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue.
This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities. If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to. Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update? Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue. fredflintstone1
  • Score: 28

1:27pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Number Six says...

Fight_Back wrote:
Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work ? Or would that make council officials and consultants look stupid.
How would you tell the difference?
[quote][p][bold]Fight_Back[/bold] wrote: Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work ? Or would that make council officials and consultants look stupid.[/p][/quote]How would you tell the difference? Number Six
  • Score: 9

1:30pm Wed 29 Jan 14

PETE OF QUEENS PARK says...

Sack the idiots in charge of refuse and let someone who knows the job do it and I am sure someone will do it for half the amount they are paying the idiots at the moment and please do not give them a golden handshake for making a balls up like this council seems to do.
Sack the idiots in charge of refuse and let someone who knows the job do it and I am sure someone will do it for half the amount they are paying the idiots at the moment and please do not give them a golden handshake for making a balls up like this council seems to do. PETE OF QUEENS PARK
  • Score: 15

2:01pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Quiterie says...

I tell you what I'd do. The 'carrot' of £1,200 productivity bonuses for CityClean workers clearly hasn't worked. So now I'd use the 'stick'. I'd tell them that either they complete their rounds or we'll move to bi-weekly refuse collections alternating between recycling and normal rubbish on a weekly basis. That would result in many redundancies for CityClean workers. With the money saved I would replace the ridiculous black recycling tubs with proper recycling wheelie bins like they have in Worthing/Adur Council. This would increase the disgraceful recycling rates we currently have in Brighton and Hove.

People might initially be annoyed by bi-weekly refuse collections, but let's face it that would be better than many of us are currently getting! The Greens would then at least leave a lasting legacy from their one and only time in office .... improved recycling rates.

If Geoff Raw (salary £125,000 - nice work if you can get it), needs any more advice on how to run CityClean. I'm always happy to help if he's struggling.
I tell you what I'd do. The 'carrot' of £1,200 productivity bonuses for CityClean workers clearly hasn't worked. So now I'd use the 'stick'. I'd tell them that either they complete their rounds or we'll move to bi-weekly refuse collections alternating between recycling and normal rubbish on a weekly basis. That would result in many redundancies for CityClean workers. With the money saved I would replace the ridiculous black recycling tubs with proper recycling wheelie bins like they have in Worthing/Adur Council. This would increase the disgraceful recycling rates we currently have in Brighton and Hove. People might initially be annoyed by bi-weekly refuse collections, but let's face it that would be better than many of us are currently getting! The Greens would then at least leave a lasting legacy from their one and only time in office .... improved recycling rates. If Geoff Raw (salary £125,000 - nice work if you can get it), needs any more advice on how to run CityClean. I'm always happy to help if he's struggling. Quiterie
  • Score: 12

2:09pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Richada says...

onlyme wrote:
the most sensible suggestion I have seen mentioned over this debacle of the past weeks/months/years (delete as appropiate) is

'Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work '

surely scrapping current rota and starting again makes sense!
Not sure that they can.......

........one of the many "stories" involving this issue is that they sold off 6 dustcarts - having sold off the hardware they no longer have the infastructure to cope.

IF that is the case, what kind of idiot ensures that a previous system that actually worked well can't be reinstated before the new one is proven?

Without knowing all the TRUE facts behind the refuse collection chaos, it is very difficult to suggest how they fix this. We have heard so many stories from councillors, officials (who over the phone merely tell you what you want to hear and then fail to deliver the service), the press, TV, the unions - everyone seems to have a different slant on this it is impossible to know what the truth is.

Those who have suggested dropping the vanity projects, getting out the current administration and concentrating on providing basic services for all have it about right here.

I'm now moaning because my bin has been emptied TWICE in three days - can't fill it up fast enough! Mind you, over Christmas it went 25 days unemptied - it is total disorganised chaos out there.
[quote][p][bold]onlyme[/bold] wrote: the most sensible suggestion I have seen mentioned over this debacle of the past weeks/months/years (delete as appropiate) is 'Any decent change analyst will suggest that if a change hasn't worked you roll back. How about just returning to the system that did actually work ' surely scrapping current rota and starting again makes sense![/p][/quote]Not sure that they can....... ........one of the many "stories" involving this issue is that they sold off 6 dustcarts - having sold off the hardware they no longer have the infastructure to cope. IF that is the case, what kind of idiot ensures that a previous system that actually worked well can't be reinstated before the new one is proven? Without knowing all the TRUE facts behind the refuse collection chaos, it is very difficult to suggest how they fix this. We have heard so many stories from councillors, officials (who over the phone merely tell you what you want to hear and then fail to deliver the service), the press, TV, the unions - everyone seems to have a different slant on this it is impossible to know what the truth is. Those who have suggested dropping the vanity projects, getting out the current administration and concentrating on providing basic services for all have it about right here. I'm now moaning because my bin has been emptied TWICE in three days - can't fill it up fast enough! Mind you, over Christmas it went 25 days unemptied - it is total disorganised chaos out there. Richada
  • Score: 10

2:15pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Richada says...

westpiergone wrote:
Take it to Kitty-craps garden,it gets moved pretty quick from there,it did in the bin strike !
Why? Does he live in another authority area where the bins are actually emptied regularly?
[quote][p][bold]westpiergone[/bold] wrote: Take it to Kitty-craps garden,it gets moved pretty quick from there,it did in the bin strike ![/p][/quote]Why? Does he live in another authority area where the bins are actually emptied regularly? Richada
  • Score: 7

2:16pm Wed 29 Jan 14

comanche762 says...

I've complained many many times on late collections and got sod all response and when they do collect, the rubbish that is strewn across the road Ie dirty nappies food etc is shocking , the collectors told me because of H&S they cant pick up anything which has fallen on the road , i work in H&S so that's bullsh*t as they would have had ample manual handling training and also training on picking up hazardous substances IE nappies , this was backed up by one email i did receive from the council saying that all their trucks have got brushes and shovels in them. I was also promised on numerous occasions that a road
sweeper would come out to clean it up , this has never happened ever since this council have been in place , only 2 weeks ago i had enough and picked up half a black bag of rubbish from my street and from out of the storm drains which in my opinion if cleaned would solve a lot of the flooding problems
I've complained many many times on late collections and got sod all response and when they do collect, the rubbish that is strewn across the road Ie dirty nappies food etc is shocking , the collectors told me because of H&S they cant pick up anything which has fallen on the road , i work in H&S so that's bullsh*t as they would have had ample manual handling training and also training on picking up hazardous substances IE nappies , this was backed up by one email i did receive from the council saying that all their trucks have got brushes and shovels in them. I was also promised on numerous occasions that a road sweeper would come out to clean it up , this has never happened ever since this council have been in place , only 2 weeks ago i had enough and picked up half a black bag of rubbish from my street and from out of the storm drains which in my opinion if cleaned would solve a lot of the flooding problems comanche762
  • Score: 13

2:25pm Wed 29 Jan 14

ThinkBrighton says...

Tell the unions to sod off, because they know they can issue threats and manipulate the greens.
Employ somebody who knows what a week consists of and how many hours in the day, and I think you would be 90% on the way to solving the problem.
The person doing the bin schedules at this time has got to be a complete idiot
who couldn't organise a drinking session in a brew house
Tell the unions to sod off, because they know they can issue threats and manipulate the greens. Employ somebody who knows what a week consists of and how many hours in the day, and I think you would be 90% on the way to solving the problem. The person doing the bin schedules at this time has got to be a complete idiot who couldn't organise a drinking session in a brew house ThinkBrighton
  • Score: 9

2:48pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Richada says...

Quiterie wrote:
I tell you what I'd do. The 'carrot' of £1,200 productivity bonuses for CityClean workers clearly hasn't worked. So now I'd use the 'stick'. I'd tell them that either they complete their rounds or we'll move to bi-weekly refuse collections alternating between recycling and normal rubbish on a weekly basis. That would result in many redundancies for CityClean workers. With the money saved I would replace the ridiculous black recycling tubs with proper recycling wheelie bins like they have in Worthing/Adur Council. This would increase the disgraceful recycling rates we currently have in Brighton and Hove.

People might initially be annoyed by bi-weekly refuse collections, but let's face it that would be better than many of us are currently getting! The Greens would then at least leave a lasting legacy from their one and only time in office .... improved recycling rates.

If Geoff Raw (salary £125,000 - nice work if you can get it), needs any more advice on how to run CityClean. I'm always happy to help if he's struggling.
I'd go for this if we KNEW that it would be collected reliably on the second week.

Currently the bins stay out all the time as we never know when, or IF they are coming. That is part of the reason that the city is so filthy, with gales and rain, bins are blown over and the rubbish is blown or flushed everywhere.

And YES on a salary of £125,000 (plus whatever they are paying him for "coaching") we do have a right to expect better of the man in charge, but then the cluless council are only interested in championing minority projects as they haven't the whit to tackle what needs to be done here.
[quote][p][bold]Quiterie[/bold] wrote: I tell you what I'd do. The 'carrot' of £1,200 productivity bonuses for CityClean workers clearly hasn't worked. So now I'd use the 'stick'. I'd tell them that either they complete their rounds or we'll move to bi-weekly refuse collections alternating between recycling and normal rubbish on a weekly basis. That would result in many redundancies for CityClean workers. With the money saved I would replace the ridiculous black recycling tubs with proper recycling wheelie bins like they have in Worthing/Adur Council. This would increase the disgraceful recycling rates we currently have in Brighton and Hove. People might initially be annoyed by bi-weekly refuse collections, but let's face it that would be better than many of us are currently getting! The Greens would then at least leave a lasting legacy from their one and only time in office .... improved recycling rates. If Geoff Raw (salary £125,000 - nice work if you can get it), needs any more advice on how to run CityClean. I'm always happy to help if he's struggling.[/p][/quote]I'd go for this if we KNEW that it would be collected reliably on the second week. Currently the bins stay out all the time as we never know when, or IF they are coming. That is part of the reason that the city is so filthy, with gales and rain, bins are blown over and the rubbish is blown or flushed everywhere. And YES on a salary of £125,000 (plus whatever they are paying him for "coaching") we do have a right to expect better of the man in charge, but then the cluless council are only interested in championing minority projects as they haven't the whit to tackle what needs to be done here. Richada
  • Score: 15

2:52pm Wed 29 Jan 14

clubrob6 says...

The problem is properties have been converted into flats and studio flats with no thought about basic things like rubbish,no one in my block of flats now recycle as it often did not get collected and just got blew around so all waste now goes into the communal street bins.The council has been trying to cut too much money like cutting rounds so the greens very principles like re-cycling has dramatically dropped since they took over.If one of the vehicles breaks down they don't have a reserve lorry to take over and have to wait for spares.My brother wrote to Lucas about some ideas he had she was not interested as she is more bothered about getting page three girls banned.
The problem is properties have been converted into flats and studio flats with no thought about basic things like rubbish,no one in my block of flats now recycle as it often did not get collected and just got blew around so all waste now goes into the communal street bins.The council has been trying to cut too much money like cutting rounds so the greens very principles like re-cycling has dramatically dropped since they took over.If one of the vehicles breaks down they don't have a reserve lorry to take over and have to wait for spares.My brother wrote to Lucas about some ideas he had she was not interested as she is more bothered about getting page three girls banned. clubrob6
  • Score: 14

3:18pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Brighton1000 says...

gheese77 wrote:
My bins have been emptied just fine, no problems in West Hove
Oh people must be making it up in that case, Everyone, stop complaining this green councillors waste is being collected. Bloody Monerati eh!?

This is the reason everyone hates the green council
[quote][p][bold]gheese77[/bold] wrote: My bins have been emptied just fine, no problems in West Hove[/p][/quote]Oh people must be making it up in that case, Everyone, stop complaining this green councillors waste is being collected. Bloody Monerati eh!? This is the reason everyone hates the green council Brighton1000
  • Score: 6

3:21pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Richada says...

clubrob6 wrote:
The problem is properties have been converted into flats and studio flats with no thought about basic things like rubbish,no one in my block of flats now recycle as it often did not get collected and just got blew around so all waste now goes into the communal street bins.The council has been trying to cut too much money like cutting rounds so the greens very principles like re-cycling has dramatically dropped since they took over.If one of the vehicles breaks down they don't have a reserve lorry to take over and have to wait for spares.My brother wrote to Lucas about some ideas he had she was not interested as she is more bothered about getting page three girls banned.
Lucas and Kitcat should be very concerned about this post - because it is the truth.

However, even if they read it, they simply wouldn't "get" it, as everything in their world is rosy, the taxpayers will always find extra funds and they will spend more and more money on what, in their eyes only, "needs" to be done.

Green ideology out of the window - and for what?

Not only has the Green experiment failed, but they have seriously damaged the work of those who went before - the current "bin crisis" being the most visible testamant of that.

What a horrible legacy, for a "Green" party, of all things, to leave behind!
[quote][p][bold]clubrob6[/bold] wrote: The problem is properties have been converted into flats and studio flats with no thought about basic things like rubbish,no one in my block of flats now recycle as it often did not get collected and just got blew around so all waste now goes into the communal street bins.The council has been trying to cut too much money like cutting rounds so the greens very principles like re-cycling has dramatically dropped since they took over.If one of the vehicles breaks down they don't have a reserve lorry to take over and have to wait for spares.My brother wrote to Lucas about some ideas he had she was not interested as she is more bothered about getting page three girls banned.[/p][/quote]Lucas and Kitcat should be very concerned about this post - because it is the truth. However, even if they read it, they simply wouldn't "get" it, as everything in their world is rosy, the taxpayers will always find extra funds and they will spend more and more money on what, in their eyes only, "needs" to be done. Green ideology out of the window - and for what? Not only has the Green experiment failed, but they have seriously damaged the work of those who went before - the current "bin crisis" being the most visible testamant of that. What a horrible legacy, for a "Green" party, of all things, to leave behind! Richada
  • Score: 12

3:24pm Wed 29 Jan 14

s&k says...

I've heard that B&HCC bought a computer system that had been tried (and failed) in other councils. Depite it being riddled with problems they bought and utilised the software anyway. Perhaps this has contributed to the issues we're seeing?
I've heard that B&HCC bought a computer system that had been tried (and failed) in other councils. Depite it being riddled with problems they bought and utilised the software anyway. Perhaps this has contributed to the issues we're seeing? s&k
  • Score: 5

4:25pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Crystal Ball says...

Jodrell Bank.
Jodrell Bank. Crystal Ball
  • Score: -1

4:48pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Indigatio says...

her professional wrote:
Indigatio wrote:
Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.
Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start.
I'd disagree. entirely. There is something serious wrong with the management at the Waste services of BHCC.
Also, bear in mind that businesses have to pay to have their waste removed and a lot of it is done by private contractors not the council AND there is no compulsion nor incentives for businesses to recycle.
[quote][p][bold]her professional[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Indigatio[/bold] wrote: Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.[/p][/quote]Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start.[/p][/quote]I'd disagree. entirely. There is something serious wrong with the management at the Waste services of BHCC. Also, bear in mind that businesses have to pay to have their waste removed and a lot of it is done by private contractors not the council AND there is no compulsion nor incentives for businesses to recycle. Indigatio
  • Score: 6

4:54pm Wed 29 Jan 14

peterthomas says...

Never mind solving the squabble - let's get refunds please - we are paying the laughable council for services that aren't being delivered - are they in breach of contract?
Never mind solving the squabble - let's get refunds please - we are paying the laughable council for services that aren't being delivered - are they in breach of contract? peterthomas
  • Score: 9

5:11pm Wed 29 Jan 14

brightonpip says...

The council contract out this service to citiclean who are presumably happy to take payment for a service they cannot or do not provide. I have no problems with refuse collection or recycling as our new dumpster system seems to be working well. There are clearly people who are having problems and these need sorting. If I pay for a service I expect to receive one, surely it is the responsibility of managers at citiclean and the council to make sure they fulfill the contacts they have agreed to.
I am not a supporter of the greens, or any other political party for that matter. I do know that when we have only 50 councillors and a council staff of over 5000, much of the day to day responsibility for running services will be delegated to council staff. Whoever you elect next year the transport planners, and those responsible for refuse, recycling and other council services will largely remain the same, We need to know they can deliver what they are paid to do.

One last point is that refuse collection is just about the only council service used by every councill tax payer and politicians and the unions know this . Overflowing bins and rubbish are an eysore, a health hazard and an embarrassment in a city which welcomes many visitors. However, in a time when all councils are facing huge budget cuts, I would not like to see further 'carrots' (or bribes) thrown at this service in the form of performance incentives which will not be offered to other public sector employees for doing their jobs.
The council contract out this service to citiclean who are presumably happy to take payment for a service they cannot or do not provide. I have no problems with refuse collection or recycling as our new dumpster system seems to be working well. There are clearly people who are having problems and these need sorting. If I pay for a service I expect to receive one, surely it is the responsibility of managers at citiclean and the council to make sure they fulfill the contacts they have agreed to. I am not a supporter of the greens, or any other political party for that matter. I do know that when we have only 50 councillors and a council staff of over 5000, much of the day to day responsibility for running services will be delegated to council staff. Whoever you elect next year the transport planners, and those responsible for refuse, recycling and other council services will largely remain the same, We need to know they can deliver what they are paid to do. One last point is that refuse collection is just about the only council service used by every councill tax payer and politicians and the unions know this . Overflowing bins and rubbish are an eysore, a health hazard and an embarrassment in a city which welcomes many visitors. However, in a time when all councils are facing huge budget cuts, I would not like to see further 'carrots' (or bribes) thrown at this service in the form of performance incentives which will not be offered to other public sector employees for doing their jobs. brightonpip
  • Score: 2

6:32pm Wed 29 Jan 14

Jagmanmc says...

Daisyb2uk wrote:
What was so wrong with the service in the 50s and 60s when 'dustmen' walked up driveways to collect our metal bins, walked to the truck, (in our case parked at the end of our cul de sac) and delivered our bins back where they found them?
Yeah those were the days when Dustmen WERE dustmen. Interesting to note that we got all our family's rubbish in one steel bin and managed to put the lid on properly (my mother emptied the kitchen bin onto newspaper and rolled the refuse up in little newspaper parcels so the bin wouldn't smell!). There were five of us in the house and the rubbish was collected weekly. The men used to grab the bin handle with one hand and in a single movement lifted the bin onto their back, then carried it and emptied it into the dustcart.
What do we do now? one wheelie bin full of those horrid black sacks as nobody can lift things now, and an assortment of recycling boxes emptied on another day. Ah progress!
[quote][p][bold]Daisyb2uk[/bold] wrote: What was so wrong with the service in the 50s and 60s when 'dustmen' walked up driveways to collect our metal bins, walked to the truck, (in our case parked at the end of our cul de sac) and delivered our bins back where they found them?[/p][/quote]Yeah those were the days when Dustmen WERE dustmen. Interesting to note that we got all our family's rubbish in one steel bin and managed to put the lid on properly (my mother emptied the kitchen bin onto newspaper and rolled the refuse up in little newspaper parcels so the bin wouldn't smell!). There were five of us in the house and the rubbish was collected weekly. The men used to grab the bin handle with one hand and in a single movement lifted the bin onto their back, then carried it and emptied it into the dustcart. What do we do now? one wheelie bin full of those horrid black sacks as nobody can lift things now, and an assortment of recycling boxes emptied on another day. Ah progress! Jagmanmc
  • Score: 7

6:37pm Wed 29 Jan 14

her professional says...

her professional wrote:
Indigatio wrote:
Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.
Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start.
See I've got -13. Of course what I meant to say was let's produce as much rubbish and waste as possible, and encourage the supermarkets to do likewise. That'll show the Council. +13 please.
[quote][p][bold]her professional[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Indigatio[/bold] wrote: Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.[/p][/quote]Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start.[/p][/quote]See I've got -13. Of course what I meant to say was let's produce as much rubbish and waste as possible, and encourage the supermarkets to do likewise. That'll show the Council. +13 please. her professional
  • Score: -4

7:24pm Wed 29 Jan 14

her professional says...

Indigatio wrote:
her professional wrote:
Indigatio wrote:
Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.
Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start.
I'd disagree. entirely. There is something serious wrong with the management at the Waste services of BHCC.
Also, bear in mind that businesses have to pay to have their waste removed and a lot of it is done by private contractors not the council AND there is no compulsion nor incentives for businesses to recycle.
Sorry, don't follow your logic - why wouldn't it be a good idea to look at best practice in comparable conurbations? And why is it not a good idea to cut down on waste, regardless of who collects it or how much of a balls up they make of it.
[quote][p][bold]Indigatio[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]her professional[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Indigatio[/bold] wrote: Why don't BHCC talk to Adur/Worthing Councils and have a few lessons from them. Their rubbish collection and recycling service is second to none.[/p][/quote]Hardly comparable to high-density multiple occupation narrow streets of Brighton. Yes it needs sorting, maybe having a look at cities with similar demographics would help. Meanwhile, we (homes and businesses) need to cut down on waste, supermarket packaging being a good place to start.[/p][/quote]I'd disagree. entirely. There is something serious wrong with the management at the Waste services of BHCC. Also, bear in mind that businesses have to pay to have their waste removed and a lot of it is done by private contractors not the council AND there is no compulsion nor incentives for businesses to recycle.[/p][/quote]Sorry, don't follow your logic - why wouldn't it be a good idea to look at best practice in comparable conurbations? And why is it not a good idea to cut down on waste, regardless of who collects it or how much of a balls up they make of it. her professional
  • Score: 2

7:46pm Wed 29 Jan 14

jimpy762 says...

This one is easy. For starters, vote in a tory council to implement these measures. Secondly, get rid of the union one way or the other. Thirdly, take the binmen off salary and put them on an hourly rate with performance related bonuses and a decent overtime rate. Phase out the dustcarts with all their unreliable hydraulic labour saving lifting gear and get strong well motivated human beings to do the work. Phase in dual purpose dustcarts that can take the manually loaded recycling and general waste in one visit. Get rid of everyone not prepared to work hard , from transport management down to the lowliest dustman,replace them with their equivalents from the private sector whose current jobs depend on providing an efficient service.
I did the Brighton dust 20 years ago, still in the same industry but our private sector model makes a mockery of the utter shambles taxpayers in Brighton are expected to put up with. If we performed like that we'd be out of business. And I think its about time these self serving clowns had that happen to them.
This one is easy. For starters, vote in a tory council to implement these measures. Secondly, get rid of the union one way or the other. Thirdly, take the binmen off salary and put them on an hourly rate with performance related bonuses and a decent overtime rate. Phase out the dustcarts with all their unreliable hydraulic labour saving lifting gear and get strong well motivated human beings to do the work. Phase in dual purpose dustcarts that can take the manually loaded recycling and general waste in one visit. Get rid of everyone not prepared to work hard , from transport management down to the lowliest dustman,replace them with their equivalents from the private sector whose current jobs depend on providing an efficient service. I did the Brighton dust 20 years ago, still in the same industry but our private sector model makes a mockery of the utter shambles taxpayers in Brighton are expected to put up with. If we performed like that we'd be out of business. And I think its about time these self serving clowns had that happen to them. jimpy762
  • Score: 2

8:05pm Wed 29 Jan 14

brighton bluenose says...

fredflintstone1 wrote:
This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities.

If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to.

Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update?

Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue.
So if its not down to budget cuts as you suggest but down to 'senior management' it is hardly directly down to the Greens is it! The management structure has been in place for years witb obviously a few comings and goings so the council management appear to be at fault rather tban the councillors themselves!
[quote][p][bold]fredflintstone1[/bold] wrote: This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities. If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to. Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update? Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue.[/p][/quote]So if its not down to budget cuts as you suggest but down to 'senior management' it is hardly directly down to the Greens is it! The management structure has been in place for years witb obviously a few comings and goings so the council management appear to be at fault rather tban the councillors themselves! brighton bluenose
  • Score: -1

8:23am Thu 30 Jan 14

fredflintstone1 says...

brighton bluenose wrote:
fredflintstone1 wrote:
This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities.

If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to.

Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update?

Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue.
So if its not down to budget cuts as you suggest but down to 'senior management' it is hardly directly down to the Greens is it! The management structure has been in place for years witb obviously a few comings and goings so the council management appear to be at fault rather tban the councillors themselves!
Sorry, but it's quite clearly the Greens' responsibility. Don't you understand how the Council works? The Greens are in charge of the Council, and it is their responsibility to ensure that basic services - rubbish collection, drain cleaning etc. are carried out effectively and efficiently. The Greens have failed to do so, along with senior management. Heads need to roll.
[quote][p][bold]brighton bluenose[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredflintstone1[/bold] wrote: This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities. If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to. Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update? Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue.[/p][/quote]So if its not down to budget cuts as you suggest but down to 'senior management' it is hardly directly down to the Greens is it! The management structure has been in place for years witb obviously a few comings and goings so the council management appear to be at fault rather tban the councillors themselves![/p][/quote]Sorry, but it's quite clearly the Greens' responsibility. Don't you understand how the Council works? The Greens are in charge of the Council, and it is their responsibility to ensure that basic services - rubbish collection, drain cleaning etc. are carried out effectively and efficiently. The Greens have failed to do so, along with senior management. Heads need to roll. fredflintstone1
  • Score: 1

8:58am Thu 30 Jan 14

Take it Personally says...

Sack this council.
Sack this council. Take it Personally
  • Score: 3

9:26am Thu 30 Jan 14

Richada says...

brighton bluenose wrote:
fredflintstone1 wrote:
This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities.

If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to.

Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update?

Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue.
So if its not down to budget cuts as you suggest but down to 'senior management' it is hardly directly down to the Greens is it! The management structure has been in place for years witb obviously a few comings and goings so the council management appear to be at fault rather tban the councillors themselves!
Very eloquently proving my earlier point on this thread that the Greens simply do not get it!

Irresponsible i.e. not taking responsibility for anything that goes wrong, vaingloriious i.e. boasting about ill-concieved vanity projects, some of which are clearly deathtraps and anti-green, inexperience should be a fair excuse, but when totally blinkered and refusing to listen to anybody at all.......
[quote][p][bold]brighton bluenose[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]fredflintstone1[/bold] wrote: This is simply another indication of just how truly inept the Greens really are. This council is simply not fit for purpose. They bleat about budget cuts, but would rather pay to hire sheep than sort out the collection of refuse and recycling, such are their warped priorities. If you actually speak to Cityclean frontline staff, they don't blame budget cuts in any case, but incompetence. The senior management running the service is not fit for purpose and the situation will not improve while they remain in post. The staff who do the work should be listened to. Unfortunately though, this Green council and its management staff are more concerned about disciplining a councillor for saying that gollywogs are nostalgic rather than tackling an issue that affects everyone in the city. They can't even use their website to inform people of the current situation and the collection schedule. Why is there not even a daily update? Director Geoff Raw should be sacked now, while anonymous and ineffectual Chief Executive Penny Thompson should be disciplined, given a timescale to sort this out, and if this isn't met, she should be following Geoff Raw to collect her P45. Effective managers on lower salaries should then be sought to resolve the issue.[/p][/quote]So if its not down to budget cuts as you suggest but down to 'senior management' it is hardly directly down to the Greens is it! The management structure has been in place for years witb obviously a few comings and goings so the council management appear to be at fault rather tban the councillors themselves![/p][/quote]Very eloquently proving my earlier point on this thread that the Greens simply do not get it! Irresponsible i.e. not taking responsibility for anything that goes wrong, vaingloriious i.e. boasting about ill-concieved vanity projects, some of which are clearly deathtraps and anti-green, inexperience should be a fair excuse, but when totally blinkered and refusing to listen to anybody at all....... Richada
  • Score: 2

9:49am Thu 30 Jan 14

Richada says...

jimpy762 wrote:
This one is easy. For starters, vote in a tory council to implement these measures. Secondly, get rid of the union one way or the other. Thirdly, take the binmen off salary and put them on an hourly rate with performance related bonuses and a decent overtime rate. Phase out the dustcarts with all their unreliable hydraulic labour saving lifting gear and get strong well motivated human beings to do the work. Phase in dual purpose dustcarts that can take the manually loaded recycling and general waste in one visit. Get rid of everyone not prepared to work hard , from transport management down to the lowliest dustman,replace them with their equivalents from the private sector whose current jobs depend on providing an efficient service.
I did the Brighton dust 20 years ago, still in the same industry but our private sector model makes a mockery of the utter shambles taxpayers in Brighton are expected to put up with. If we performed like that we'd be out of business. And I think its about time these self serving clowns had that happen to them.
I find myself reflecting on how much greener your proposal is than the current fiasco with the extraordinarily hi-tech duscarts constantly breaking down (or is that just an excuse?).

Previous experience with the bins tells us that the system can work - the smaller vehicles used in those days also had far less problems negotiating their way around the town (as it was then).

Trouble is, sadly we live in changed times; PC, health & safety, a GREEN council, clueless, but ideologically driven, the union, who, like the rest of us are at odds with the council, all of which conspire to rob the council tax payers of a service that they pay through the nose for.

For many of us, turning back the clock appears the only way to solve the bin crisis, the more time that passes, the worse the crisis becomes and the less capable the current council & management are proving at sorting it out.

Any "private sector model" will make a mockery of the public sector as it has to be run professionally and efficiently in order to survive. It also has to be competitive - in the council's case none of this applies, we all just cough up the cash for it come what may - we have no choice in that.
[quote][p][bold]jimpy762[/bold] wrote: This one is easy. For starters, vote in a tory council to implement these measures. Secondly, get rid of the union one way or the other. Thirdly, take the binmen off salary and put them on an hourly rate with performance related bonuses and a decent overtime rate. Phase out the dustcarts with all their unreliable hydraulic labour saving lifting gear and get strong well motivated human beings to do the work. Phase in dual purpose dustcarts that can take the manually loaded recycling and general waste in one visit. Get rid of everyone not prepared to work hard , from transport management down to the lowliest dustman,replace them with their equivalents from the private sector whose current jobs depend on providing an efficient service. I did the Brighton dust 20 years ago, still in the same industry but our private sector model makes a mockery of the utter shambles taxpayers in Brighton are expected to put up with. If we performed like that we'd be out of business. And I think its about time these self serving clowns had that happen to them.[/p][/quote]I find myself reflecting on how much greener your proposal is than the current fiasco with the extraordinarily hi-tech duscarts constantly breaking down (or is that just an excuse?). Previous experience with the bins tells us that the system can work - the smaller vehicles used in those days also had far less problems negotiating their way around the town (as it was then). Trouble is, sadly we live in changed times; PC, health & safety, a GREEN council, clueless, but ideologically driven, the union, who, like the rest of us are at odds with the council, all of which conspire to rob the council tax payers of a service that they pay through the nose for. For many of us, turning back the clock appears the only way to solve the bin crisis, the more time that passes, the worse the crisis becomes and the less capable the current council & management are proving at sorting it out. Any "private sector model" will make a mockery of the public sector as it has to be run professionally and efficiently in order to survive. It also has to be competitive - in the council's case none of this applies, we all just cough up the cash for it come what may - we have no choice in that. Richada
  • Score: 2

4:45pm Thu 30 Jan 14

her professional says...

Richada wrote:
jimpy762 wrote:
This one is easy. For starters, vote in a tory council to implement these measures. Secondly, get rid of the union one way or the other. Thirdly, take the binmen off salary and put them on an hourly rate with performance related bonuses and a decent overtime rate. Phase out the dustcarts with all their unreliable hydraulic labour saving lifting gear and get strong well motivated human beings to do the work. Phase in dual purpose dustcarts that can take the manually loaded recycling and general waste in one visit. Get rid of everyone not prepared to work hard , from transport management down to the lowliest dustman,replace them with their equivalents from the private sector whose current jobs depend on providing an efficient service.
I did the Brighton dust 20 years ago, still in the same industry but our private sector model makes a mockery of the utter shambles taxpayers in Brighton are expected to put up with. If we performed like that we'd be out of business. And I think its about time these self serving clowns had that happen to them.
I find myself reflecting on how much greener your proposal is than the current fiasco with the extraordinarily hi-tech duscarts constantly breaking down (or is that just an excuse?).

Previous experience with the bins tells us that the system can work - the smaller vehicles used in those days also had far less problems negotiating their way around the town (as it was then).

Trouble is, sadly we live in changed times; PC, health & safety, a GREEN council, clueless, but ideologically driven, the union, who, like the rest of us are at odds with the council, all of which conspire to rob the council tax payers of a service that they pay through the nose for.

For many of us, turning back the clock appears the only way to solve the bin crisis, the more time that passes, the worse the crisis becomes and the less capable the current council & management are proving at sorting it out.

Any "private sector model" will make a mockery of the public sector as it has to be run professionally and efficiently in order to survive. It also has to be competitive - in the council's case none of this applies, we all just cough up the cash for it come what may - we have no choice in that.
Would the banking system be an example of your professional and efficient private sector? You're certainly right in that it makes a mockery - of all of us.
[quote][p][bold]Richada[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jimpy762[/bold] wrote: This one is easy. For starters, vote in a tory council to implement these measures. Secondly, get rid of the union one way or the other. Thirdly, take the binmen off salary and put them on an hourly rate with performance related bonuses and a decent overtime rate. Phase out the dustcarts with all their unreliable hydraulic labour saving lifting gear and get strong well motivated human beings to do the work. Phase in dual purpose dustcarts that can take the manually loaded recycling and general waste in one visit. Get rid of everyone not prepared to work hard , from transport management down to the lowliest dustman,replace them with their equivalents from the private sector whose current jobs depend on providing an efficient service. I did the Brighton dust 20 years ago, still in the same industry but our private sector model makes a mockery of the utter shambles taxpayers in Brighton are expected to put up with. If we performed like that we'd be out of business. And I think its about time these self serving clowns had that happen to them.[/p][/quote]I find myself reflecting on how much greener your proposal is than the current fiasco with the extraordinarily hi-tech duscarts constantly breaking down (or is that just an excuse?). Previous experience with the bins tells us that the system can work - the smaller vehicles used in those days also had far less problems negotiating their way around the town (as it was then). Trouble is, sadly we live in changed times; PC, health & safety, a GREEN council, clueless, but ideologically driven, the union, who, like the rest of us are at odds with the council, all of which conspire to rob the council tax payers of a service that they pay through the nose for. For many of us, turning back the clock appears the only way to solve the bin crisis, the more time that passes, the worse the crisis becomes and the less capable the current council & management are proving at sorting it out. Any "private sector model" will make a mockery of the public sector as it has to be run professionally and efficiently in order to survive. It also has to be competitive - in the council's case none of this applies, we all just cough up the cash for it come what may - we have no choice in that.[/p][/quote]Would the banking system be an example of your professional and efficient private sector? You're certainly right in that it makes a mockery - of all of us. her professional
  • Score: -1

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