Quakers call for boycott of Brighton store (From The Argus)

"and totally ignores all the real human rights issues in different countries around the world."

I love the "Well, if you think we're bad what about them over there!" approach.

Absolves the people saying it of any need to reflect on their own behaviour just because someone else is doing a worse job of being decent human beings than they are.

Suzanne Ismail should ask other Quakers if they are more bothered by the mass sluaughter taking place in Syria right now (30,000 + murdered in 18 months), then a technical argument about where a factory has been built.

FACT - It is not on occupied territory, it is on land administered under the Oslo peace agreement between Israel & the Palestinians.

Even Caroline Lucas & the Greens welcomed this shop to Brighton. I would encourage Quakers to question Suzanne Ismails's real motives.

Has she ever criticised hamas for firing 20 000 + rockets at Israeli civilians. If like me she is a human rights campaigner & peace activist she should do so now.

hursthill wrote:
Suzanne Ismail should ask other Quakers if they are more bothered by the mass sluaughter taking place in Syria right now (30,000 + murdered in 18 months), then a technical argument about where a factory has been built.

FACT - It is not on occupied territory, it is on land administered under the Oslo peace agreement between Israel & the Palestinians.

Even Caroline Lucas & the Greens welcomed this shop to Brighton. I would encourage Quakers to question Suzanne Ismails's real motives.

Has she ever criticised hamas for firing 20 000 + rockets at Israeli civilians. If like me she is a human rights campaigner & peace activist she should do so now.

Love the why you proved the first posters post correct straight away - this story is about Israel NOT other countries.

Your FACT is not a FACT - there are at least two UN resolutions that have deemed the land as occupied illegally by Israel.

I know Israel supporters are simple so here's a simple solution to the rockets - give the land that was stolen from the Palestinians back and then you might have peace. Personally, if someone occupied say Brighton and Hove illegally I'd use any means open to me to liberate it - be it rockets, assassination, bombings and dis-information. Much like the French freedom fighters in world war 2. Just because the British carved up a country and gave some of it away because of fairy tales around some sky fairy doesn't give Israel the moral right to murder innocents and occupy land illegally.

LB wrote:
"and totally ignores all the real human rights issues in different countries around the world."

I love the "Well, if you think we're bad what about them over there!" approach.

Absolves the people saying it of any need to reflect on their own behaviour just because someone else is doing a worse job of being decent human beings than they are.

Beware! You're about to see a lot of rhetoric about how great Israel is, how generous they are to Palestians, how they have rockets fired at their innocent civilians daily and that Israel are just defending their poor little self from all the neighbouring nasty countries.

This is not the case. They are the occupiers. They are running an apartheid system. They are treating the indigenous people brutally.

But they do have great PR, unlike the Palestinians who find it hard to get a word out for some reason. The Palestinians have to rely on activists to spread their side of the story - but some fussy people don't like activists.

So if you must, keep believing the Israeli PR, everything is rosy in the occupied terratories. And buy yourself a fizzy drinks machine!

Once again anti-semitism rises to the surface in Brighton.
Perhaps the Quakers would like to burn our books ? Perhaps they would like us to wear badges so they could more easily chose which premises to avoid ?
Quaker belief consists of a deep commitment to peace, simplicity, truth and equality. Well they certainly have a simplistic view of this issue ( their own). As for truth and equality ? That seems to have been conveniently ignored.

Fercri Sakes wrote:

LB wrote:
"and totally ignores all the real human rights issues in different countries around the world."

I love the "Well, if you think we're bad what about them over there!" approach.

Absolves the people saying it of any need to reflect on their own behaviour just because someone else is doing a worse job of being decent human beings than they are.

Beware! You're about to see a lot of rhetoric about how great Israel is, how generous they are to Palestians, how they have rockets fired at their innocent civilians daily and that Israel are just defending their poor little self from all the neighbouring nasty countries.

This is not the case. They are the occupiers. They are running an apartheid system. They are treating the indigenous people brutally.

But they do have great PR, unlike the Palestinians who find it hard to get a word out for some reason. The Palestinians have to rely on activists to spread their side of the story - but some fussy people don't like activists.

So if you must, keep believing the Israeli PR, everything is rosy in the occupied terratories. And buy yourself a fizzy drinks machine!

The rhetoric sounds very similar to that used by the Nazis in WW2 around Jews employed in their war factories - they were very lucky to have jobs ...... apparently.

Kiddon72 wrote:
Once again anti-semitism rises to the surface in Brighton.
Perhaps the Quakers would like to burn our books ? Perhaps they would like us to wear badges so they could more easily chose which premises to avoid ?
Quaker belief consists of a deep commitment to peace, simplicity, truth and equality. Well they certainly have a simplistic view of this issue ( their own). As for truth and equality ? That seems to have been conveniently ignored.

Where in their statements is there anti-semitism ? I see no attack on Jews ? Just a statement of truth about ISRAEL ( not Jews ) occupying lands illegally.

It's strange, I'd heard a rumour that the Israeli security services monitor web sites for anti-Israel statements and then get their agents and supporters to post defences on them. It would appear to be correct if the Argus web site is anything to go by. ( and the rumour came from an Israeli ! ).

Godwins law is never far from the surface in these debates, is it?

Jeez. Here's a simple solution, leave them all alone in their misery. Both sides are wrong anyway. History is full of invasion and occupation, then it happens again. The Palestinians came and conquered whoever was there before they were so how far back till you get the original owners. If all the money they spent fighting had been invested in Palestine they would have the most modern and advanced infrastructure and society in the area.

LB wrote:
Godwins law is never far from the surface in these debates, is it?

Nor is the law that says once you criticise Israel you magically become anti-semitic.

Fercri Sakes wrote:

LB wrote: Godwins law is never far from the surface in these debates, is it?

Nor is the law that says once you criticise Israel you magically become anti-semitic.

Aaaah. That's explained it then. "I dont hate jews, I only hate the citizens of Israel". Mmmm.

LB wrote:
Godwins law is never far from the surface in these debates, is it?

Given the state of Israel was created BECAUSE of WW2 ( started by the Nazis ) it's hardly a weak link !

Kiddon72 wrote:

Fercri Sakes wrote:

LB wrote: Godwins law is never far from the surface in these debates, is it?

Nor is the law that says once you criticise Israel you magically become anti-semitic.

Aaaah. That's explained it then. "I dont hate jews, I only hate the citizens of Israel". Mmmm.

Are you suggesting that all the citizens of Israel are Jewish ? If I attack the UK am I being anti-Christian given we're predominately a Christian country ?

Has this "copy" been cleared with Ecostream? Stories likes this might reduce the amount of paid for investigations!

The palestininan authority maybe corrupt and incompetant. unfortunatly being blown up and blocaded does not make for moderate goverment.
The west bank was invaded in1967 the settlements are illegal tge palestinians who live thered do not have freedom of movement they cant even leave not having passports.

Fercri Sakes wrote:

LB wrote:
Godwins law is never far from the surface in these debates, is it?

Nor is the law that says once you criticise Israel you magically become anti-semitic.

That is not strictly true...many of us criticise Israel in some areas, just as we criticise some of the policies in this country.

What is true is that groups like the BDS and PSC draw to themselves many people who are anti-Semitic by virtue of their aims and goals which go far beyond human rights isssues and ultimately seek the destruction/decontru
ction of Israel as it now is.

Kiddon72 wrote:
Once again anti-semitism rises to the surface in Brighton.
Perhaps the Quakers would like to burn our books ? Perhaps they would like us to wear badges so they could more easily chose which premises to avoid ?
Quaker belief consists of a deep commitment to peace, simplicity, truth and equality. Well they certainly have a simplistic view of this issue ( their own). As for truth and equality ? That seems to have been conveniently ignored.

Seems to me like they simply want the state of Israel (not you) end the occupation. What you claim bears no resemblance to what the report says.

On the 25th of October special rapporteur Richard Falk delivered a similar report at the UN (see http://www.un.org/ap
ps/news/story.asp?Ne
wsID=43376 ). It is becoming an increasingly mainstream position to see a boycott of settlement produce as a good way of putting pressure on the Israeli state. The boycott movement also work with Israeli groups such as Who Profits and Boycott from Within who work for similar goals.

As far as equality goes, there can by definition not be equality under occupation.

It seems contradictory to me that the people who decry any armed resistance from the Palestinians are equally against their request for Boycott, divestment and sanctions -a non violent tactic. The request for BDS has come from Palestinian civil society, it is not something activists here have made up themselves. What kind of resistance to the occupation should Palestinians be 'allowed'?

By the way, it really is not disputed territory. Area C constitutes 61% of the West Bank. if these areas were 'disputed' that would leave no space for a Palestinian state. If people are going to refer to the Oslo accords then at least read them properly. According to the Oslo accords C areas (Israeli controlled areas in the occupied West Bank) should have started to be transferred to Palestinian control no later than 1998. Since then Palestinians have only seen settlement expansion (a lot of it in the areas around Mishor Adumim).

To pre-empt some of the criticisms which I am sure are coming:
-yes, I've been to the area a lot. Including most settlements and Mishor Adumim.
-Yes, I do care about Syria and have been on demos about that. And I really wish there was something useful and constructive to do about the situation (suggestions welcome).
-and yes, I do have a job.

Fight_Back wrote:

LB wrote:
Godwins law is never far from the surface in these debates, is it?

Given the state of Israel was created BECAUSE of WW2 ( started by the Nazis ) it's hardly a weak link !

More like Israel was created despite WW2, and could have been formed much earlier if the British had handled their Mandate fairly.

Kiddon72 wrote:
Once again anti-semitism rises to the surface in Brighton.
Perhaps the Quakers would like to burn our books ? Perhaps they would like us to wear badges so they could more easily chose which premises to avoid ?
Quaker belief consists of a deep commitment to peace, simplicity, truth and equality. Well they certainly have a simplistic view of this issue ( their own). As for truth and equality ? That seems to have been conveniently ignored.

We all know the truth about Israel and how vile they are to the Palestinian race. We also know how America is there number one main supporters which is why they get away with what they do to those poor people. How dare you say what you do about the Quakers you ignorant fool. You clearly have no idea of what good they have done for this world which is more than the state of Israel has done with their appalling track record towards the palestinian race . God forbid should anyone, yet alone the Quakers criticise Israel.

Fight back and others .

What prevented the Palestinians from declaring independence at any time between 1947 and 1967 when there was no occupation and no settlements ? .

John60 wrote:

Kiddon72 wrote:
Once again anti-semitism rises to the surface in Brighton.
Perhaps the Quakers would like to burn our books ? Perhaps they would like us to wear badges so they could more easily chose which premises to avoid ?
Quaker belief consists of a deep commitment to peace, simplicity, truth and equality. Well they certainly have a simplistic view of this issue ( their own). As for truth and equality ? That seems to have been conveniently ignored.

We all know the truth about Israel and how vile they are to the Palestinian race. We also know how America is there number one main supporters which is why they get away with what they do to those poor people. How dare you say what you do about the Quakers you ignorant fool. You clearly have no idea of what good they have done for this world which is more than the state of Israel has done with their appalling track record towards the palestinian race . God forbid should anyone, yet alone the Quakers criticise Israel.

The only fool john69 is you.

The Quakers know nothing about the situation in israel. Why should they.

Kiddon72 wrote:
Once again anti-semitism rises to the surface in Brighton.
Perhaps the Quakers would like to burn our books ? Perhaps they would like us to wear badges so they could more easily chose which premises to avoid ?
Quaker belief consists of a deep commitment to peace, simplicity, truth and equality. Well they certainly have a simplistic view of this issue ( their own). As for truth and equality ? That seems to have been conveniently ignored.

Agree 100%.

Funny how some bigoted people will usr any reason to attack Israel, a country which had to daily defend itself against terrorism. That's why not only USA but also Australia, New Zealand and Europe are broadly supportive of Israel

I'm not a Quaker, but whenever I'm in the area there certainly tend to be a lot of Quakers from their 'social witness program' around. And there are two Quaker schools in Ramallah that have both been there for over 110 years. But I guess you've not come across them.

harvela wrote:
Fight back and others .

What prevented the Palestinians from declaring independence at any time between 1947 and 1967 when there was no occupation and no settlements ? .

Why should they have - they had a state ( albeit ruled by Britain ) before 1947. It's only Britain that carved up a country that already existed to create an imaginary country. Israel has as much right over Palestine as the Vatican has over Bath ( given the Roman occupation ).

"Why should they."

because they have eyes to see.

Just to let people who are really interested in the arguments of the report know - the report referred to in this article was endorsed by 22 different organisations and the full text is available here http://www.christian
aid.org.uk/Images/Tr
ading%20Away%20Peace
%20October%202012_tc
m15-63607.pdf

LB wrote:
"Why should they."

because they have eyes to see.

How very cryptic of you !

And you're point is exactly ?

There is a saying in the Bible that charity begins at home. Amongst other things, it means that before worrying about other peoples issues, you first resolve your own. The Christian churches in this country are notable by their near invisibility when it comes to their opinions and actions on the important things that happen right here in the UK. Why don't they sort these out first? Amongst other things it might begin to arrest the decline in church attendances. Christians are to be judged at the end by the lives they led and the example they set to attract non-believers. To those whom much is given, much is expected.

Regarding Israel. I well remember the attempts by the Arab nations to wipe out Israel in 1967. Unfortunately for them, they came off second best and now they want to complain to the UN about coming second and being relatively powerless against Israel. I completely understand why the Israeli's don't play ball with the Arabs. They don't trust them based on words and deeds.

George Fox who was a deeply conscientious man started what became the Quaker Movement in the early 1700's as a response to the hyprocisy he found in most other Christian Institutions.

If he saw today what has become of the movement, he wouldn't recognise it and be turning in his grave as it is so far removed from passionate group of committed Christians that were its core adherents.

In response to Fight_Back:

What Palestinian State are you referring to? Who were the indigenous people? What was their language? What was their capital?
Indeed what were their origins?

The real fantasy is the myth of a sovereign Palestinian country inhabited by a prospering virtuous group of individuals whose only desire is to spread sunshine and light to the world.

Israel is a pariah state full of liars and cheats, and every thing from there should be boycotted in our country. Religion has NOTHING to do with it...
My opinion without prejudice!!

Israel was set up by USA & British at the request of Lord Rothschild - look up the Rothschild's as they are the problem of the world today.

Well done to the Quakers for boycotting this shop - I am too!

In case anyone isn't aware - both USA & Britain are still giving money to Israel even though it is extremely rich and is given donations from all the Jews worldwide sending it money!

I like trains.

Goyboy wrote:
George Fox who was a deeply conscientious man started what became the Quaker Movement in the early 1700's as a response to the hyprocisy he found in most other Christian Institutions.

If he saw today what has become of the movement, he wouldn't recognise it and be turning in his grave as it is so far removed from passionate group of committed Christians that were its core adherents.

In response to Fight_Back:

What Palestinian State are you referring to? Who were the indigenous people? What was their language? What was their capital?
Indeed what were their origins?

The real fantasy is the myth of a sovereign Palestinian country inhabited by a prospering virtuous group of individuals whose only desire is to spread sunshine and light to the world.

Take your pick - either modern Palestine from 1920 ish or ancient Palestine from around 1100 BC. They have a greater right to the land than Jews who believe in a book of fairy tales !

Tricky one this, lots of Palestinians are employed in the factory but it is built on occupied land. With such high unemployment among Palestinians it's a hard choice to try and shut it down - file me under not sure!

Fight back
There was no Palestinian state in 1947
It was under British mandate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire up till 1917 . The UN partition plan envisaged two states one Israel , one Palestine . Israel accepted the plan , the Arabs rejected it .In the ensuing war both Israel and the Arabs lost territory to each other . The West Bank was annexed by Jordan
You have not provided an answer as to why the Palestinians failed to declare independence between 1947 and 1967 nor answer why things are so different now so as to encourage Israel to believe that simply withdrawing from the West Bank will lead to a full and irrevocable peace accord .

In reality we both know it won't . It's merely a strategy to return to the 48 lines , in the meantime airbrushing the end goal which is the elimination of Israel .

It reminds me of the optimistic guy at the blackjack table asking another card on 18 and then demanding his stake back when he strikes out .

That Juleshove is a really nasty piece of work - get out of the country you horrid woman!

harvela wrote:
Fight back
There was no Palestinian state in 1947
It was under British mandate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire up till 1917 . The UN partition plan envisaged two states one Israel , one Palestine . Israel accepted the plan , the Arabs rejected it .In the ensuing war both Israel and the Arabs lost territory to each other . The West Bank was annexed by Jordan
You have not provided an answer as to why the Palestinians failed to declare independence between 1947 and 1967 nor answer why things are so different now so as to encourage Israel to believe that simply withdrawing from the West Bank will lead to a full and irrevocable peace accord .

In reality we both know it won't . It's merely a strategy to return to the 48 lines , in the meantime airbrushing the end goal which is the elimination of Israel .

It reminds me of the optimistic guy at the blackjack table asking another card on 18 and then demanding his stake back when he strikes out .

There was a Palestinian state in 1947 but as you say under British Mandate.

If we're talking about airbrushing what about the murder of British troops by Israeli terrorists or Israel attempting to deflect blame for assassinations on Britain ( a so called friend ) by using faked British passports.

Israel is as much of a terrorist state as the organisation of Hamas. Britain should not be support such a country.

Israel should retreat to the 1967 boarders agreed by the UN and then, and ONLY then, do they have a right to complain about rockets etc. Until then every rocket fired from Gaza is an attempt at freedom by Palestinians.

John 60
You will have to boycott a whole lot more than a single front lock up shop on Western Road
Last year Israel / UK business exceeded 8 billion pounds . Your phone and IT works primarily off software developed in Israel . The reality is that apart from third world failed despotic Arab states the rest of the world recognises Israel as a true first world democracy which subscribes to the UN founding charter in every way .
Norman Finklestein , former poster boy for the Bds labelled the movement a cult with no core national political backing .
More than that the PSC has a disproportionate number of antisemites embedded in the organisation and that issues who use the cover of antizionism to engage with like minded racists .
Greensteins pathetic vote to remove one such antisemite last year was rejected by 40 % of those eligible to vote .

"Israel as a true first world democracy which subscribes to the UN founding charter in every way"

Except when it comes to White Phosphorous !!!!! Another air brushing !

Sorry fight back but you make little sense . There was no Palestinian state in 1947 . The Palestinians failed to take up the opportunity following the UN partition plan accepted by Israel .

You've still failed to answer the original question but no matter , I've posed the same question countless times to clueless Israel haters like you and never had anything close to a sensible reply .
I should start offering a prize for the best answer . First prize a £50 gift voucher to spend at Soda Stream

Fight back

War is never pretty . Coalition forces taking out terrorists and inflicting collateral damage is also not very nice but ultimately both Israel and the coalition are at war with an ideology which threatens our daily life , our beliefs and if left unchecked our very existence .
Israel did not launch an unprovoked assault on Gaza . It had good reason following the Hamas take over which led to the firing of thousands of rockets and mortars at Southern Israel and that following Israels pullout in 2005

No rockets . No retaliation . Simples really .

No ethnic cleansing, cowardly murder of children and peace activists, no crypto-fascism, no apartheid laws, no cowardly genocide, no more whining about the holocaust, less greed and hypocrisy, no more threat to israel. simples.

harvela wrote:
Fight back

War is never pretty . Coalition forces taking out terrorists and inflicting collateral damage is also not very nice but ultimately both Israel and the coalition are at war with an ideology which threatens our daily life , our beliefs and if left unchecked our very existence .
Israel did not launch an unprovoked assault on Gaza . It had good reason following the Hamas take over which led to the firing of thousands of rockets and mortars at Southern Israel and that following Israels pullout in 2005

No rockets . No retaliation . Simples really .

Wow, 28 Israelis killed by rockets so Israel kills 1400 Palestinians, its clear who the aggressor is in this situation, its Israel.

The hypocrisy of a country that demands everyone condemns any Palestinian opposition as being terrorists but celebrated the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 by zionist terrorists beggars belief. Here is what our parliament thought of Israels behaviour..

That this House notes that the sixtieth anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel fell on 22nd July 2006; recalls that 96 people died in this atrocity, which remains the highest death toll for British subjects in a terrorist attack; further notes that an event was held in Jerusalem to celebrate this event and that prominent members of the Knesset, including former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, attended; condemns terrorism unreservedly; and associates itself with the comments of Her Majesty's Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Consul-General in Jerusalem, `We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated'.

The hotel was bombed because it housed British intelligence who were collating information about the wave of terror that the zionists were inflicting on the Palestinians in order to clear them from their land.

Israels supporters hypocrisy in blaming the Palestinians for all the violence in that country is deplorable and demonstrably false.

What is clear from this thread is that the Israeli forum workers are out in force. This happens whenever there is a discussion like this. I imagine them sitting there in a portacabin somewhere, with whiteboards around the walls with all the points they're meant to get into any discussion they don't like. It is a professional set-up. I am by no means anti-Israeli, but the way they hijack discussions like this certainly cools my support for them.

Rotters wrote:
That Juleshove is a really nasty piece of work - get out of the country you horrid woman!

I think you'll find she/he is on a kibbutz somewhere...

Plantpot wrote:
There is a saying in the Bible that charity begins at home. Amongst other things, it means that before worrying about other peoples issues, you first resolve your own. The Christian churches in this country are notable by their near invisibility when it comes to their opinions and actions on the important things that happen right here in the UK. Why don't they sort these out first? Amongst other things it might begin to arrest the decline in church attendances. Christians are to be judged at the end by the lives they led and the example they set to attract non-believers. To those whom much is given, much is expected.

Regarding Israel. I well remember the attempts by the Arab nations to wipe out Israel in 1967. Unfortunately for them, they came off second best and now they want to complain to the UN about coming second and being relatively powerless against Israel. I completely understand why the Israeli's don't play ball with the Arabs. They don't trust them based on words and deeds.

Could you please remind me of where it says in the Bible that charity begins at home? You whine on and on about Christians being silent on home issues but you couldn't be further from the truth - you just aren't listening well enough.

PS Read the parable of the Good Samaritan, it'll give you a good angle on Jesus' view on whether charity should begin at home.

Rotters wrote:
That Juleshove is a really nasty piece of work - get out of the country you horrid woman!

Rotters - Why don't you set an example and leave this country first.

In fact, I will even drive you to the airport.

JoeBlow wrote:

Rotters wrote:
That Juleshove is a really nasty piece of work - get out of the country you horrid woman!

I think you'll find she/he is on a kibbutz somewhere...

Actually i have no reason to take sides.However i dont like people that are racist or bigoted towards any minority group.

People need to understand that Israel is the only free democratic country in the middle east and is entitled to take actions necessary to protect itself.

If you support the current hamas administration you are a supporter of a terrorist group listed by the european union. Any decent human being would find that totally unacceptable.

juleshove wrote:

JoeBlow wrote:

Rotters wrote:
That Juleshove is a really nasty piece of work - get out of the country you horrid woman!

I think you'll find she/he is on a kibbutz somewhere...

Actually i have no reason to take sides.However i dont like people that are racist or bigoted towards any minority group.

People need to understand that Israel is the only free democratic country in the middle east and is entitled to take actions necessary to protect itself.

If you support the current hamas administration you are a supporter of a terrorist group listed by the european union. Any decent human being would find that totally unacceptable.

But you accept Israel using banned weapons, bulldozing Palestinian homes with women and children still in them, Israeli snipers killing mothers and children, Israeli special forces killing peace activists and killing their opponents abroad and effectively ensuring British "finger prints" all over the murders ?

Jhunty
War is never proportional . It wasn't in ww2 when the allies bombed Dresden and it wasn't in Hiroshima and Nagasaki . It wasn't proportional in Chechyna when the Russians levelled Grozny killing over 100,000 civilians in the process .
Of the 1400 killed in Cast Lead , 800 were fighters acknowledged as such by Hamas . Hamas fought an asymmetric war hiding behind the skirts of their own women and launching missiles from schools and hospitals .

No I don't accept that Israel bulldozed houses with women and children inside . Try providing a few citations instead of regurgitating Greensteins agit prop guff .

Joe blow
If there are Israel forum workers here as you so crudely put it , it's only to counter the recycled lies and propaganda disseminated by PSC types such as yourself .

harvela wrote:
Jhunty
War is never proportional . It wasn't in ww2 when the allies bombed Dresden and it wasn't in Hiroshima and Nagasaki . It wasn't proportional in Chechyna when the Russians levelled Grozny killing over 100,000 civilians in the process .
Of the 1400 killed in Cast Lead , 800 were fighters acknowledged as such by Hamas . Hamas fought an asymmetric war hiding behind the skirts of their own women and launching missiles from schools and hospitals .

"Hamas fought an asymmetric war hiding behind the skirts of their own women and launching missiles from schools and hospitals."

That's probably what Syria's Assad said about the rebels when he's launched vicious strikes in civilian areas and the rebels have fought back is it not?

JoeBlow wrote:
What is clear from this thread is that the Israeli forum workers are out in force. This happens whenever there is a discussion like this. I imagine them sitting there in a portacabin somewhere, with whiteboards around the walls with all the points they're meant to get into any discussion they don't like. It is a professional set-up. I am by no means anti-Israeli, but the way they hijack discussions like this certainly cools my support for them.

Nope...what is clear from this thread (apart from the usual bickering)...is that for too long anti-Israel/anti-Zio
nist/anti-Semite propaganda no longer goes unchallenged, and lies and half-truths are systematically countered....that's what really difficult for some people to swallow.

Just as from now on when the BDS and PSC take to the streets in Brighton and protest against so-called Israeli occupation, Israeli racism, Israeli apartheid they will find that many people are no longer going to sit back and let them spew out their
one-sided biased narrative, but will counter it as effectively as possible.

boblat wrote:
Israel is a pariah state full of liars and cheats, and every thing from there should be boycotted in our country. Religion has NOTHING to do with it...
My opinion without prejudice!!

Gotta smile at that.

Fight_Back wrote:

Goyboy wrote:
George Fox who was a deeply conscientious man started what became the Quaker Movement in the early 1700's as a response to the hyprocisy he found in most other Christian Institutions.

If he saw today what has become of the movement, he wouldn't recognise it and be turning in his grave as it is so far removed from passionate group of committed Christians that were its core adherents.

In response to Fight_Back:

What Palestinian State are you referring to? Who were the indigenous people? What was their language? What was their capital?
Indeed what were their origins?

The real fantasy is the myth of a sovereign Palestinian country inhabited by a prospering virtuous group of individuals whose only desire is to spread sunshine and light to the world.

Take your pick - either modern Palestine from 1920 ish or ancient Palestine from around 1100 BC. They have a greater right to the land than Jews who believe in a book of fairy tales !

Fight_Back said.."Take your pick - either modern Palestine from 1920 ish or ancient Palestine from around 1100 BC. They have a greater right to the land than Jews who believe in a book of fairy tales !"

Fair enough....what this shows me is that you are just regurgitating what you think you know. There was no Palestine in 1100 BC, the word wasn't coined for an area of the Middle East until around 135 AD after the Bar Kokhba revolt.

As for modern Palestine, it was never a country or a state...it certainly never belonged to an imaginary ethnic group called Palestinians as the Arabs in the land identified themselves as southern Syrian in the 1920's...even when I lived there in the 70's many Arabs would send money to their families who actually lived in Jordan or other surrounding Arab countries, which is where most hailed from in the 1st place.

The other thing your post shows is that you obviously don't believe the Bible...and by association I suspect you think the Qur'an is also a book of fairy tales...I guess the thing is that if you did believe the Bible you would have to admit that Israel was specifically designated by G-d for the Jewish people...but that's a whole other story.

Just opened the curtains and pleased to advise that it very much looks like its still England out there.

More pleasingly its Brighton

Wouldn't the UK be a much better place if all these extremists retreated back into their minority burrows and kept their own views to themselves.

Let the shop trade

Finally, I have no idea who the 'Quakers' are but they sound like another minority group fueled by extremist views (presumably religious and therefore fantasy) and these are probably worthy of some kind of boycott themselves.

Actually the Israeli defense force has a strict code of conduct similar to our own army. Most of the army are made up of 18 and 19 year old girls and boys doing military service.

Israelis generally are well educated and secular. They go to great lengths to ensure they avoid civilian casulties when responding to terror threats.

They do not shoot anyone.randomly and bulldoze homes randomly. They bulldoze homes of known terrorists sometimes to act.as a deterient but only after giving notice of their intention to do this and with additional loud speaker warnings to ensure there is no one inside the house.

The israeli army makes.occasional errors like all armys even our own British army which is the best. However bearing in mind it is dealing with extremists attacking them with rockets, guns and bombs on a daily basis i think the Israelis do a remarkable job limiting.civilian casualties.

With Israelis sophisticated weapons and airforce it could avoid flatten gaza and the west bank in less than 24 hours but it doesn't. This is because it has morals and always tries to do the right thing even if occasionally it makes mistakes.

Still England, yes Brighton out there

JoeBlow wrote:

Plantpot wrote:
There is a saying in the Bible that charity begins at home. Amongst other things, it means that before worrying about other peoples issues, you first resolve your own. The Christian churches in this country are notable by their near invisibility when it comes to their opinions and actions on the important things that happen right here in the UK. Why don't they sort these out first? Amongst other things it might begin to arrest the decline in church attendances. Christians are to be judged at the end by the lives they led and the example they set to attract non-believers. To those whom much is given, much is expected.

Regarding Israel. I well remember the attempts by the Arab nations to wipe out Israel in 1967. Unfortunately for them, they came off second best and now they want to complain to the UN about coming second and being relatively powerless against Israel. I completely understand why the Israeli's don't play ball with the Arabs. They don't trust them based on words and deeds.

Could you please remind me of where it says in the Bible that charity begins at home? You whine on and on about Christians being silent on home issues but you couldn't be further from the truth - you just aren't listening well enough.

PS Read the parable of the Good Samaritan, it'll give you a good angle on Jesus' view on whether charity should begin at home.

You are correct, there is no such direct expression of charity in the Bible. But there is the concept, so start with the book of Timothy. No-one is going to quote blocks of text when they can cover off with a familiar axiom.

BTW, I don't whine on and on, I just state my position that based on reading and listening to the news, Christians clearly fail to get their point across. More people go to church than attend football on a Saturday. Compare coverage of football vs. coverage of religious issues. Based on the small coverage given the church of England, they don't even know what they believe in.

It's because of the stolen land and illegal settlements that you have groups like Hamas.
I travel frequently to Lebanon and visit the Palestinian refugee camps there, at bursting point. Generations of Palestinians who will never return home.

I am surprised at certain people on this forum who seem to whitewash the awful atrocities that Israel has committed. Anybody recall the sickening massacres of Jenin? Up to 500 people killed, mainly women and children. Some people were slaughtered like animals. Others were crushed to death when the Israeli tanks bulldozed their homes whilst they were still inside!
And you have people here calling Israel a civilised country? Take a look at what the UN and Amnesty International have to say about Israel's actions- the country has committed war crimes! It illegally occupies Palestinian land and Syrian land. It occupied south Lebanon for decades too.
When you challenge any Israeli rhetoric on forums you get branded anti Semitic, yet most people probably haven't traveled to Israel or Palestine!

Israel is a very rich country, supported by America and Britain. They receive billions in aid and it all goes on military.

From the early 2000s they even diverted water pipes out of Lebanon so that wealthy residents in northern Israel could fill their swimming pools during a water shortage.

They fly their war jets across Lebanon almost daily. Is intimidating and it incites a hatred of them.

I do like juleshove's 'I'm very moderate, have no axe to grind and by the way here's a cut and paste from the 'how to respond to criticism of Israel by appearing reasonable whilst presenting a one sided, pro-Israel, view of the issue' manual' approach to posting on here.

Think I'll still stick to avoiding Sodastream products though.

I dont cut and paste anything. Just fed up with the Palestiaians being portrayed as whiter than white. When in fact rogue states like iran and syria supply weapons to hamas to keep attacking Israel with.

Israel is desperate for peace but whilst like other western countries it values life very highly the same can not be said for its neighbours who celebrate death rather than life. This is a global issue.

Whilst i have no affiliations either way, i can be very moderate. I believe the Palestinians do deserve their own country but alongside Israel not instead of Israel.

However i agree also with the view supported by many western civilised countries that Israel can not be expected to agree to two state solution all the time there are terror groups speaking for the so called moderate Palestians who are committed to trying to destroy Israel .

No one in their right mind would agree to that. End of debate.

Anyone excited about the new series of celebrity get me out of here ?

Remember this:

If an Israeli weapon kills a palestinian civilian it is because it has missed its target.

If a Palestinian weapon kills an Israeli civilian it is because it has hit its target.

Kiddon72 wrote:
Remember this:

If an Israeli weapon kills a palestinian civilian it is because it has missed its target.

If a Palestinian weapon kills an Israeli civilian it is because it has hit its target.

Absolutely. Very true and tells you all you need to know about the mindsets of the two sides..

LB
If you're going to boycott Soda Stream you might as well go the whole hog and throw your laptop / pc / iPhone out the window . It all runs on Israeli technology.
But then again , a single front shop on Western Road is so much easier and generates that good feel factor before heading back off for the next ' Rage against the machine ' shindig .

How did Brighton come to deserve so many flops and layabouts in one small town ? Seriously !

The anti-Israel comments here appear to be orchestrated by the Palestine Solidarity campaign (PSC)..

The PSC effectively support the end of Israel.. Their statements often display antisemitism, & although their leaders are aware of this racism within its movement they have been unable to stop it.

The PSC oppose a 2 state solution, despite the UN having created 2 states in 1948, when the 5 neighbouring Arab States then launched a war to destroy Israel.

It is important people are made aware of the extreme views of the PSC, their sole purpose being to delegitimise Israel. That is why they host extremist speakers, & post antisemetic material on websites.

Jules and Harvela, - well said.

The fact that the Quakers only have 17,000 members in the UK shows that they are a tiny group who do not attract
members in any significant numnbers which speaks for itself.

Raffik
Jenin was a direct result of the horrific atrocity carried out by a Palestinian homicide bomber at the Park Hotel in Netanya on Passover . Thirty people were blown to smithereens as they were preparing for the festival . Families were wiped out .

As for Jenin , the final figure was 52 Palestinian dead mostly fighters . Not 500 .
You're just making it up as you go !

Raffik wrote:
It's because of the stolen land and illegal settlements that you have groups like Hamas.
I travel frequently to Lebanon and visit the Palestinian refugee camps there, at bursting point. Generations of Palestinians who will never return home.

I am surprised at certain people on this forum who seem to whitewash the awful atrocities that Israel has committed. Anybody recall the sickening massacres of Jenin? Up to 500 people killed, mainly women and children. Some people were slaughtered like animals. Others were crushed to death when the Israeli tanks bulldozed their homes whilst they were still inside!
And you have people here calling Israel a civilised country? Take a look at what the UN and Amnesty International have to say about Israel's actions- the country has committed war crimes! It illegally occupies Palestinian land and Syrian land. It occupied south Lebanon for decades too.
When you challenge any Israeli rhetoric on forums you get branded anti Semitic, yet most people probably haven't traveled to Israel or Palestine!

Israel is a very rich country, supported by America and Britain. They receive billions in aid and it all goes on military.

From the early 2000s they even diverted water pipes out of Lebanon so that wealthy residents in northern Israel could fill their swimming pools during a water shortage.

They fly their war jets across Lebanon almost daily. Is intimidating and it incites a hatred of them.

Well said!

harvela wrote:
Raffik
Jenin was a direct result of the horrific atrocity carried out by a Palestinian homicide bomber at the Park Hotel in Netanya on Passover . Thirty people were blown to smithereens as they were preparing for the festival . Families were wiped out .

As for Jenin , the final figure was 52 Palestinian dead mostly fighters . Not 500 .
You're just making it up as you go !

Precisely harvela, well said. Raffik you are getting your information from the Fantasy records of Palestinian propaganda. You, like many other Palestinans and their supporters, like to quote and exaggerate incidents totally devoid of their context.

I hate the refugee camps too, but try and see that perhaps the blame for their continued existence does not lie with Israel, but with the countries that refused to accomodate them when they needed their help...and these are the countries most of the refugees came from in the first place.

Some brave people in these camps have been quoted as saying they do not blame the Israelis for what has happened to them, but blame their own people for not caring about them and lying to them in the first place.

They are not going to get 'right of return' to Israel...just as the Jews expelled from Arab lands (losing all their possessions without compensation) are never going to be able to return...the difference being that the tiny country of Israel absorbed every one that fled to her shores.

On your next trip to Lebanon, try asking Southern Lebanese what it was like when the Palestinians took refuge in their country after getting booted out of Jordan...ask if it is true 100,000 people were murdered by them, and over 100,000 woman raped. When Israel first went in, they were welcomed with open arms because at last they could be rid of this group of people that had treated them like vermin.

It is not a case of trying to white-wash things that Israel have done...it is a case of trying to present it in context without exaggeration, and without bias.
but as can be seen from the narrative you try and present...people like myself have no choice but to strongly disagree with your ridiculous statement of 500 killed at Jenin.

I believe the resentment and hatred of Israel amongst many Arab people is so inbred that they will always believe the worst thing they hear about Jews and Israelis because it re-inforces their own hatred and bias....no amount of education in the world can change this, and the truth is seen as an obstacle to be trodden underfoot.

Fortunately the UK is a democratic nation, and we can freely challenge your nonsense...but in most Arab countries the lies and hate against Israel are the only narrative allowed and 'watch out' if you dare consider any alternative or suggest that actually any Israeli action might be justified....it might just be suicidal.

Totally agree with Goyboy. Well put.

I had a friend in Turkey one of the more moderate middle east countries and she told me the Turkish press is very hostile towards Israel and often reports what seems shocking headlines with little or no basis in truth.

Most other middle east countries are even worse. Thats the problem with non democratic countries they can easily feed propaganda to their populations.

Israelis have a totally free press and access to the web completely uncensored, so they are well informed as a result.

Goyboy wrote:

harvela wrote:
Raffik
Jenin was a direct result of the horrific atrocity carried out by a Palestinian homicide bomber at the Park Hotel in Netanya on Passover . Thirty people were blown to smithereens as they were preparing for the festival . Families were wiped out .

As for Jenin , the final figure was 52 Palestinian dead mostly fighters . Not 500 .
You're just making it up as you go !

Precisely harvela, well said. Raffik you are getting your information from the Fantasy records of Palestinian propaganda. You, like many other Palestinans and their supporters, like to quote and exaggerate incidents totally devoid of their context.

I hate the refugee camps too, but try and see that perhaps the blame for their continued existence does not lie with Israel, but with the countries that refused to accomodate them when they needed their help...and these are the countries most of the refugees came from in the first place.

Some brave people in these camps have been quoted as saying they do not blame the Israelis for what has happened to them, but blame their own people for not caring about them and lying to them in the first place.

They are not going to get 'right of return' to Israel...just as the Jews expelled from Arab lands (losing all their possessions without compensation) are never going to be able to return...the difference being that the tiny country of Israel absorbed every one that fled to her shores.

On your next trip to Lebanon, try asking Southern Lebanese what it was like when the Palestinians took refuge in their country after getting booted out of Jordan...ask if it is true 100,000 people were murdered by them, and over 100,000 woman raped. When Israel first went in, they were welcomed with open arms because at last they could be rid of this group of people that had treated them like vermin.

It is not a case of trying to white-wash things that Israel have done...it is a case of trying to present it in context without exaggeration, and without bias.
but as can be seen from the narrative you try and present...people like myself have no choice but to strongly disagree with your ridiculous statement of 500 killed at Jenin.

I believe the resentment and hatred of Israel amongst many Arab people is so inbred that they will always believe the worst thing they hear about Jews and Israelis because it re-inforces their own hatred and bias....no amount of education in the world can change this, and the truth is seen as an obstacle to be trodden underfoot.

Fortunately the UK is a democratic nation, and we can freely challenge your nonsense...but in most Arab countries the lies and hate against Israel are the only narrative allowed and 'watch out' if you dare consider any alternative or suggest that actually any Israeli action might be justified....it might just be suicidal.

Well said. It is a pleasure to actually read the facts rather than the lies perpetrated by the pro-Arab lobby.

juleshove wrote:
Totally agree with Goyboy. Well put.

I had a friend in Turkey one of the more moderate middle east countries and she told me the Turkish press is very hostile towards Israel and often reports what seems shocking headlines with little or no basis in truth.

Most other middle east countries are even worse. Thats the problem with non democratic countries they can easily feed propaganda to their populations.

Israelis have a totally free press and access to the web completely uncensored, so they are well informed as a result.

Wonder how much of that hostility stems from the murder of 9 Turkish activists by Israeli forces on the Mavi Marmara in 2010.

gaz scott wrote:

juleshove wrote:
Totally agree with Goyboy. Well put.

I had a friend in Turkey one of the more moderate middle east countries and she told me the Turkish press is very hostile towards Israel and often reports what seems shocking headlines with little or no basis in truth.

Most other middle east countries are even worse. Thats the problem with non democratic countries they can easily feed propaganda to their populations.

Israelis have a totally free press and access to the web completely uncensored, so they are well informed as a result.

Wonder how much of that hostility stems from the murder of 9 Turkish activists by Israeli forces on the Mavi Marmara in 2010.

gaz scott - The Turkish activists were not murdered by Israeli forces and were killed when they attacked the Israeli forces, just as the British soldiers kill
afghans when they attack them

Is this the same lot as the USA founding fathers, that evolved into the slaughter of the native indians, then salvery and then the klu klux clan?

Just on the way back home from Gatwick after a busy day out of the country in Berlin.

Interestingly, whilst there I didn't feel the need to hold a protest in Berlin about people obstructing streets in Brighton, or other matters. I respected that I was in Berlin and that I had no legitimate business to try to influence their agenda.

Just on the outskirts of Brighton now and yes this is England not an enclave of Israel, or Palestine. If only others in this thread and the scruffy looking miscreants who hang out outside Soda stream could share the same view.

Clear off and let the shop trade!

Ish1 wrote:

gaz scott wrote:

juleshove wrote:
Totally agree with Goyboy. Well put.

I had a friend in Turkey one of the more moderate middle east countries and she told me the Turkish press is very hostile towards Israel and often reports what seems shocking headlines with little or no basis in truth.

Most other middle east countries are even worse. Thats the problem with non democratic countries they can easily feed propaganda to their populations.

Israelis have a totally free press and access to the web completely uncensored, so they are well informed as a result.

Wonder how much of that hostility stems from the murder of 9 Turkish activists by Israeli forces on the Mavi Marmara in 2010.

gaz scott - The Turkish activists were not murdered by Israeli forces and were killed when they attacked the Israeli forces, just as the British soldiers kill
afghans when they attack them

Some might call it an act of piracy since the Israeli action was in International waters and extreme and excessive use of force was used in boarding the vessel.

You were talking about Turkish hostility to Israel and the above act at least partially explains why the Turkish are so hostile.

Hi Gaz,

Hope you are keeping well.

Hope you don't mind me correcting your mistakes.

Israel was entitled under international law to board the boat & check no rockets etc were being sent to hamas terrorists, ( 20,000 + rockets fired at Israeli civilians in 2 years.)

Excessive use of force was by those who tried to kill Israel defence forces doing their legal duty.

Turkish people I have met have no hostility to Israel. That is why trade between the 2 countries is running at record levels. Turkey does not boycott Israel. It is virtually at war with Syria, because Syria has murdered 30,000 + of it's own people & killed many Turkish civilians. That explains why the Turkish are so hostile to Syria.

Regards,
Hursthill.

Having enjoyed a few quick pints in my local and shared this thread with a couple of mates, they asked me to mention that they believe its Brighton out there too.

Hope that clarifies and posters who think this site is a home for discussing foreign agendas may be misguided.

If you are one of these fools then again to clarify, this is England and you might get more mileage by raising your concerns elsewhere!

Hi Somethingsarejustwro
ng,

Quite agree with you mate. I also enjoy a pint in my local. Maybe we drink in the same boozer.

However I hope you agree when you see untruths they must be corrected.

For some reason The Argus has a fixation in printing stories about idiots trying to boycott certain shops. Before you know it they will find a reason to boycott your local.

Unlike any other paper in the country The Argus is giving these idiots publicity. Why ??

hursthill wrote:
Hi Somethingsarejustwro

ng,

Quite agree with you mate. I also enjoy a pint in my local. Maybe we drink in the same boozer.

However I hope you agree when you see untruths they must be corrected.

For some reason The Argus has a fixation in printing stories about idiots trying to boycott certain shops. Before you know it they will find a reason to boycott your local.

Unlike any other paper in the country The Argus is giving these idiots publicity. Why ??

More than happy for untruths to be corrected, however do disapprove of minority groups imposing views on others with no regard, or sensitivity towards them.

Having now had the displeasure of walking past this mob of scruffy miscreants 3 times whilst on my way to pick up the weekend's groceries from Waitrose on Western Road, I have had it with this particular protest.

Good morning all

Opened the curtains and its still Brighton, England out there. Here's hoping the outlook is the same later.

Thread closed!

Somethingsarejustwro
ng wrote:
Good morning all

Opened the curtains and its still Brighton, England out there. Here's hoping the outlook is the same later.

Thread closed!

At the risk of being on the receiving end of your hot displeasure STAJW, and for what its worth....I know it is pleasant to pretend everything is cozy and very 'English' when you open your curtains, and I think you have made your point many times over.

However the facts are that Brighton is one of many towns across the UK that has been targetted by small groups of individuals that want to drip feed the British public into believing that truth and justice in the Middle-East can only be found through their propaganda of facts and figures...and that means supporting everything Palestinian and basically despising anything that is Israeli. (not precise, but ultimately that is where it leads)

Many people have for the last ten years or so, sat back and let them have their way...but these groups are everywhere, especially in the Universities and Colleges, and are uniting with people from Arab countries in a campaign of hate against Israel...and trying to get people like you and me to believe their bias....they are quite literally (and with full understanding) trying to delegitimize and destabilize Israel...not through terror, or aggression...but through trying to win peoples hearts over to their side...it is media based activism and to all intents and purposes is another type of terrorism that is far more effective, and plays right into the hands of groups like Hamas, Fatah and even Hizbollah....it extends their reach and aligns with their goals.

Whether this bothers you or not is your prerogative, but they are not going to go away just by wishing it, or pretending everything is cozy and rosy in Brighton...it could well be that this town is at the forefront of such activity, which is why you are reluctantly finding an inordinate amount of column space in the Argus given over to them...and why you will find people like myself write replies on these pages to inform people what is going on, and to present counter-arguments.

You do not have to write in this section...you do not have to read the Argus, or you can be selective in your reading....but I am afraid I can do nothing to help you on your way to shop at Waitrose (a company that thankfully will not even contemplate dialogue with the BDS and their supporters)...I, and a growing number of friends will be there to counter-demonstrate.
.

Avoiding shopping there on Saturday afternoon should also go a long way restoring your equilibrium...but next time you open your curtains, try opening your eyes to see what is really happening on your door-step.

Goyboy wrote:

Somethingsarejustwro ng wrote: Good morning all Opened the curtains and its still Brighton, England out there. Here's hoping the outlook is the same later. Thread closed!

At the risk of being on the receiving end of your hot displeasure STAJW, and for what its worth....I know it is pleasant to pretend everything is cozy and very 'English' when you open your curtains, and I think you have made your point many times over. However the facts are that Brighton is one of many towns across the UK that has been targetted by small groups of individuals that want to drip feed the British public into believing that truth and justice in the Middle-East can only be found through their propaganda of facts and figures...and that means supporting everything Palestinian and basically despising anything that is Israeli. (not precise, but ultimately that is where it leads) Many people have for the last ten years or so, sat back and let them have their way...but these groups are everywhere, especially in the Universities and Colleges, and are uniting with people from Arab countries in a campaign of hate against Israel...and trying to get people like you and me to believe their bias....they are quite literally (and with full understanding) trying to delegitimize and destabilize Israel...not through terror, or aggression...but through trying to win peoples hearts over to their side...it is media based activism and to all intents and purposes is another type of terrorism that is far more effective, and plays right into the hands of groups like Hamas, Fatah and even Hizbollah....it extends their reach and aligns with their goals. Whether this bothers you or not is your prerogative, but they are not going to go away just by wishing it, or pretending everything is cozy and rosy in Brighton...it could well be that this town is at the forefront of such activity, which is why you are reluctantly finding an inordinate amount of column space in the Argus given over to them...and why you will find people like myself write replies on these pages to inform people what is going on, and to present counter-arguments. You do not have to write in this section...you do not have to read the Argus, or you can be selective in your reading....but I am afraid I can do nothing to help you on your way to shop at Waitrose (a company that thankfully will not even contemplate dialogue with the BDS and their supporters)...I, and a growing number of friends will be there to counter-demonstrate. . Avoiding shopping there on Saturday afternoon should also go a long way restoring your equilibrium...but next time you open your curtains, try opening your eyes to see what is really happening on your door-step.

A comment that is both eloquent and accurate. You have articulated that which many of us think.
Unfortunately there are so many people in Brighton that latch on to the latest fashionable protest. They can see but choose not to.

Goyboy excellent post. Very articulate and so true.

Goyboy excellent post. Very articulate and so true.

Kiddon72 wrote:

Goyboy wrote:

Somethingsarejustwro ng wrote: Good morning all Opened the curtains and its still Brighton, England out there. Here's hoping the outlook is the same later. Thread closed!

At the risk of being on the receiving end of your hot displeasure STAJW, and for what its worth....I know it is pleasant to pretend everything is cozy and very 'English' when you open your curtains, and I think you have made your point many times over. However the facts are that Brighton is one of many towns across the UK that has been targetted by small groups of individuals that want to drip feed the British public into believing that truth and justice in the Middle-East can only be found through their propaganda of facts and figures...and that means supporting everything Palestinian and basically despising anything that is Israeli. (not precise, but ultimately that is where it leads) Many people have for the last ten years or so, sat back and let them have their way...but these groups are everywhere, especially in the Universities and Colleges, and are uniting with people from Arab countries in a campaign of hate against Israel...and trying to get people like you and me to believe their bias....they are quite literally (and with full understanding) trying to delegitimize and destabilize Israel...not through terror, or aggression...but through trying to win peoples hearts over to their side...it is media based activism and to all intents and purposes is another type of terrorism that is far more effective, and plays right into the hands of groups like Hamas, Fatah and even Hizbollah....it extends their reach and aligns with their goals. Whether this bothers you or not is your prerogative, but they are not going to go away just by wishing it, or pretending everything is cozy and rosy in Brighton...it could well be that this town is at the forefront of such activity, which is why you are reluctantly finding an inordinate amount of column space in the Argus given over to them...and why you will find people like myself write replies on these pages to inform people what is going on, and to present counter-arguments. You do not have to write in this section...you do not have to read the Argus, or you can be selective in your reading....but I am afraid I can do nothing to help you on your way to shop at Waitrose (a company that thankfully will not even contemplate dialogue with the BDS and their supporters)...I, and a growing number of friends will be there to counter-demonstrate. . Avoiding shopping there on Saturday afternoon should also go a long way restoring your equilibrium...but next time you open your curtains, try opening your eyes to see what is really happening on your door-step.

A comment that is both eloquent and accurate. You have articulated that which many of us think.
Unfortunately there are so many people in Brighton that latch on to the latest fashionable protest. They can see but choose not to.

I really do not think that all is cozy in Brighton, how can it be when the streets are blocked by scruffy miscreants protesting about something that is relevant to another part of the world. A part of the world, which is of no interest to most of us yet these people inflict their lack of respect on us.

You lot (for and against) are a disgrace.

"You lot (for and against) are a disgrace.”

A thinking persons reply. Nuff said.

Better close the curtains, and pull the duvet back over your head.

Goyboy wrote:
"You lot (for and against) are a disgrace.”

A thinking persons reply. Nuff said.

Better close the curtains, and pull the duvet back over your head.

I have no interest in your cause, your stance your protest. I don't care what is happening in Israel or Palestine. I have no desire to find out and I certainly don't care whether you are for, or against, or even what you may be for or against.

You can protest as much as you want, but please take it out of my line of sight and travel.

Should I wish to engage intellectually, I will do so on a topic of interest to me.

Good night!

As usual any criticism against Israel folk get accused of being anti Seminists! I had seen NO anti seminism until the someone defending Israel,s actions made the accusation. I do not see how boycotting the "Soda stream" store would even make a dent in Israels finances tbh! what I do see and hear is plenty of "Jewish" Folk who are against the illegal occupation of Palestinian land!
we in the UK only hear the bad bits of the Palestinian rocket attacks Never about the humane deeds ie "the palestinian mother who allowed her dead sons organs to be donated to a dying Israeli child !" the Israeli wife who donated her dead husbands heart for transplant ! we hear none of these things only the bad! I condemn Israel for the occupation !NOT the Jewish People ! as many Jews would like to get on with life and live side by side with Palestinian folk and vice versa ! we are in serious danger of getting the same mind set as Hitlers black shirts ie the Jews funding wars the Jews having all the money etc etc etc what is needed is a proper mandate from the UN stating that Israel has this land and Palestine has this land ! and then who ever fails to keep the mandate loses any land they have !! full stop!!! peace will never be true until there is some form of punishment to the defaulters ! and this does not only apply to Israel and palestine! its about time it applied to all including the UK America and Iran !!

Once attended a 'Friends' meeting in Lewes that proclaimed outside that visitors were welcome.
Greeted with suspicious aloofness and the prayerful 'conversation' was amazingly self-absorbed.
Does this set the scene for what they are about in Brighton, I wonder?

The sides concerned are never going to get on so the Quakers should not waste their time on them, rather let them do what they are best at producing those tasty Oat Flakes.

000242 wrote:

Kiddon72 wrote:
Once again anti-semitism rises to the surface in Brighton.
Perhaps the Quakers would like to burn our books ? Perhaps they would like us to wear badges so they could more easily chose which premises to avoid ?
Quaker belief consists of a deep commitment to peace, simplicity, truth and equality. Well they certainly have a simplistic view of this issue ( their own). As for truth and equality ? That seems to have been conveniently ignored.

Seems to me like they simply want the state of Israel (not you) end the occupation. What you claim bears no resemblance to what the report says.

On the 25th of October special rapporteur Richard Falk delivered a similar report at the UN (see http://www.un.org/ap

ps/news/story.asp?Ne

wsID=43376 ). It is becoming an increasingly mainstream position to see a boycott of settlement produce as a good way of putting pressure on the Israeli state. The boycott movement also work with Israeli groups such as Who Profits and Boycott from Within who work for similar goals.

As far as equality goes, there can by definition not be equality under occupation.

It seems contradictory to me that the people who decry any armed resistance from the Palestinians are equally against their request for Boycott, divestment and sanctions -a non violent tactic. The request for BDS has come from Palestinian civil society, it is not something activists here have made up themselves. What kind of resistance to the occupation should Palestinians be 'allowed'?

By the way, it really is not disputed territory. Area C constitutes 61% of the West Bank. if these areas were 'disputed' that would leave no space for a Palestinian state. If people are going to refer to the Oslo accords then at least read them properly. According to the Oslo accords C areas (Israeli controlled areas in the occupied West Bank) should have started to be transferred to Palestinian control no later than 1998. Since then Palestinians have only seen settlement expansion (a lot of it in the areas around Mishor Adumim).

To pre-empt some of the criticisms which I am sure are coming:
-yes, I've been to the area a lot. Including most settlements and Mishor Adumim.
-Yes, I do care about Syria and have been on demos about that. And I really wish there was something useful and constructive to do about the situation (suggestions welcome).
-and yes, I do have a job.

Nicely put. And non of the pro-Israeli comments here has washed with me. Watching any programme on the Israeli 'settlers' is enough to make my blood boil.

The Quakers are a very small minority and their own official figures state that they only have 17,000 members.

Accordingly, anything they say should
be viewed in that light.

Ish1 wrote:
The Quakers are a very small minority and their own official figures state that they only have 17,000 members.

Accordingly, anything they say should
be viewed in that light.

Who are the Quakers anyway.. I know what they used to be years ago, when they were a genuine, bible believing, albeit rather strange group of people. But that was eons ago. Now they are a rag tag, mix of all sorts, who believe in anything weird and wonderful, new age, inner healing, one cream cake short of a sponge group with absolutely zero interest in anything remotely genuine Christian. Does anyone other than fringe groups, even entertain them?

In simple terms, this situation should not be summed up by people who are either pro Palestinian or pro Israeli.

It should be by what is the right thing to do.

The Palestinians did not have their own country prior to the UN mandate which formed the state of Israel.

Part of the land the Palestinians were living in was originally part of Syria and part was also with Jordan.

Subsequent attacks by Syria, Egypt and Jordan on Israel has meant that some of these areas are now kept under Israeli control.

Saying this, the Palestinians do deserve their own country and most secular Israelis agree with this.

What has to be agreed before this can happen, is for the Palestinians to give up terrorism.

This is proving to be difficult and there are many hardline extremist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and even splinter groups from Al Qeaidi who operate in Gaza and the West bank who are dedictated to try to destroy Israel and all the Israelis.

It is obviously impossible for the Palestians to properly have their own country with their own police, military etc unless terror is addressed.

We have seen the problems in the middle east where even legitimate protests from the public in countries like Egypt, Syria etc have been hijacked by extremists.

The western world does understand this as many of these countries has its own problems with extremist groups albeit on a smaller scale including our own.

As a result no real pressure has been exerted on Israel to give up some of its land by Europe, America, Australia, New Zealand.

Even China and Russia who do a lot of business with some of the ' regimes' in the middle east are wary of creating another rogue regime in the middle east complete with an army and airforce.

When the Palestinains understand this, they will then be able to live in their own country in peace.

Its very simple.

Isreal does not want the continued hassle of having to police and administer the gaza strip and the west bank. It would much rather the Palestinians do it in peace.

What is right is that in England people should be allowed to trade in line with English legislation regardless of the views of 2 minority factions.

What is also right is in England and in Brighton in this case is that the scruffy disheveled miscreant population representing each faction should show some respect to the locals and keep off our streets - particularly Western Road.

If people wish to protest then why not meet up in a local park and shout at each other where no one else is affected

Kiddon72 wrote:
Remember this:

If an Israeli weapon kills a palestinian civilian it is because it has missed its target.

If a Palestinian weapon kills an Israeli civilian it is because it has hit its target.

Wow so Israel missed the target some 1100 times in operation Cast Lead alone, very poor shots the IDF, I can only assume the Defence part is meant ironically given their history of aggression. I mean to miss your target 1100 times in one operation, it's incompetence on a massive scale. Its almost as if Kiddon72, is lying to deflect attention away from that massive incompetence by trying to portray all Palestinians as terrorists, much easier to deny them their rights when they are all terrorists.

So guys have you got your Argus Watch site up and running yet? Out in force propagating the usual pro Israeli propaganda? How many of you get paid to come on here and trot out the usual non sense about all Palestinians being terrorists, about Palestinians not being a real race of people, that argument is dangerously close to being a hate crime, or is it a crime against humanity to deny the existence of a race of people? A land with out people for a people with out land? One of the biggest lies that pro Israelis put out.

Simple fact, the early Zionists inflicted a wave of terror on the indigenous population of the area to cleanse the area to allow settlement by European Jews. A deliberate policy deliberately carried out.

As a pro Israeli letter writer recently said in The Argus if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Israels treatment of the Palestinians is one of the longest running human rights travesties in modern times. As more people see Israels aggression for what it is, so Israels supporters get more desperate and their accusations of anti semitism get wilder and wilder.

It's simple, you don't get some sort of special dispensation to treat another race of people like dirt just because of the historical persecution of the Jewish race and religion, that's it in a nutshell.

The standards of behaviour you demand from others are expected from you, you demand people condemn terrorism? Stop celebrating your own terrorists then, such as the murderers responsible for the King Davids Hotel massacre and stop denying the part that terrorism by the early Zionists played in creating Israel.

voiceofthescoombe wrote:
The palestininan authority maybe corrupt and incompetant. unfortunatly being blown up and blocaded does not make for moderate goverment.
The west bank was invaded in1967 the settlements are illegal tge palestinians who live thered do not have freedom of movement they cant even leave not having passports.

Dhimmitude appears.....

JHunty, if you were not soooo one sided, you might realise that it is very difficult for the IDF to get clean strikes at the people firing rockets into Israel as the terrorists often hide behind civilians in schools, hospitals and even Mosques.

No one has said that all Palestinains are terrorists, of course they are not. However the majority did vote in Hamas whose main aim is to try to destroy Israel.

So in summary if you vote in a group that is classified as a terrorist group not only by the US, but also by the European Union, you can't really expect any progress on peace.

Palestinains need to be moderate for that to happen, which i for one hope it does.

Perhaps if you were less one sided and looked at this debate from both sides you would be taken more seriously.

The King David event happened for a specific reason and it wasn't targeting civilians. it was aimed at high ranking military officers.

Specifically at British military. The two are not comparable.

However much has changed since this event in 1946 and Israel and Britain have remained close allies for the last 50 years. Sharing close military as well as business ties.

Also what you conveniently forgot to mention was that warnings were sent by telephone including one to the hotel's own switchboard that was ignored.

juleshove wrote:
JHunty, if you were not soooo one sided, you might realise that it is very difficult for the IDF to get clean strikes at the people firing rockets into Israel as the terrorists often hide behind civilians in schools, hospitals and even Mosques.

No one has said that all Palestinains are terrorists, of course they are not. However the majority did vote in Hamas whose main aim is to try to destroy Israel.

So in summary if you vote in a group that is classified as a terrorist group not only by the US, but also by the European Union, you can't really expect any progress on peace.

Palestinains need to be moderate for that to happen, which i for one hope it does.

Perhaps if you were less one sided and looked at this debate from both sides you would be taken more seriously.

The King David event happened for a specific reason and it wasn't targeting civilians. it was aimed at high ranking military officers.

Specifically at British military. The two are not comparable.

However much has changed since this event in 1946 and Israel and Britain have remained close allies for the last 50 years. Sharing close military as well as business ties.

Also what you conveniently forgot to mention was that warnings were sent by telephone including one to the hotel's own switchboard that was ignored.

Jules- I think you will find that it is the Israelis who are trying to eradicate the Palestinian population, and sadly they have the military oomph to do it not to mention a blind eye from Europe and America.

Israel is a large country, so please tell me why they continue to allow illegal settlements to be built on what is left of Palestinian territories? Can you not see that it incites a dislike and hostility?

As for you calling my facts made up as I go along- they are all from the UN and Amnesty International. Surely you are not going to doubt their own findings?

Israel (literally) gets away with murder in Palestine and its neighbouring countries. The number of massacres and atrocities that it has been party to is unbelievable, not only in Palestine but Lebanon. Anybody remember the massacre of Qana? When they deliberately bombed a UN building where women and children were hiding? What about their overseeing of the massacres at Shatila and Sabra in Beirut?

Or the quotes that one Israeli life is worth that of one Arab? I am sorry, but Israel has had carte blanche since its "formation" in the region and is free to do what it pleases with the lives of Palestinians.

It has happened since the 1940s and will continue indefinitely.
My father's family home in Beirut was flattened in 2006 by Israeli war planes. It took 2 hits to destroy the building that my grandfather built in the 1960s, nestled amongst orange and lemon groves. And they claim that they only target military positions? Hmm

What about the fact that even though people are maimed and killed on a daily basis in south Lebanon, Israel REFUSE to release the map of land mines that it peppered the area with before they left in 2000?

I could go on- but I have to come to the conclusion that in your blinkered view, Israel can never do any wrong. It is an innocent entity which has brought none of this on themselves.

Raffik said..."Jules- I think you will find that it is the Israelis who are trying to eradicate the Palestinian population, and sadly they have the military oomph to do it not to mention a blind eye from Europe and America.

Israel is a large country, so please tell me why they continue to allow illegal settlements to be built on what is left of Palestinian territories? Can you not see that it incites a dislike and hostility?

As for you calling my facts made up as I go along- they are all from the UN and Amnesty International. Surely you are not going to doubt their own findings?

Israel (literally) gets away with murder in Palestine and its neighbouring countries. The number of massacres and atrocities that it has been party to is unbelievable, not only in Palestine but Lebanon. Anybody remember the massacre of Qana? When they deliberately bombed a UN building where women and children were hiding? What about their overseeing of the massacres at Shatila and Sabra in Beirut?

Or the quotes that one Israeli life is worth that of one Arab? I am sorry, but Israel has had carte blanche since its "formation" in the region and is free to do what it pleases with the lives of Palestinians.

It has happened since the 1940s and will continue indefinitely.
My father's family home in Beirut was flattened in 2006 by Israeli war planes. It took 2 hits to destroy the building that my grandfather built in the 1960s, nestled amongst orange and lemon groves. And they claim that they only target military positions? Hmm

What about the fact that even though people are maimed and killed on a daily basis in south Lebanon, Israel REFUSE to release the map of land mines that it peppered the area with before they left in 2000?

I could go on- but I have to come to the conclusion that in your blinkered view, Israel can never do any wrong. It is an innocent entity which has brought none of this on themselves.”
....................
....................
...........

Raffik, you are living in fantasy land.

Israel is a very small country....not a large one as you seem to think.

Israel has no desire to eradicate the Arab population, but will not sit idly by and be used for target practice by groups that want to see Israel destroyed.

Israel does not see the settlements as illegal, and believe they can build wherever they want in their own country without being dictated to by any outsiders. Are you aware that Hamas routinely bull-doze houses in Gaza, and the people have no-where to go, but tents? Are you also aware that their sort of democracy entertains no argument and they impose their rule on the people by means of fear?

Israel specifically tries hard not to target civilian populations, and is deeply concerned when they do, expressing their soorw and regret, and trying everything in their power to compensate for their actions.
They do not rejoice in the street when people have been murdered, or name streets after multiple-murderers.

Do you really think the Palestinians want to live under Palestinian rule?
Many of them are terrified of that eventuality.

I will check out what you said about the land-mines it is not something I have heard before.

Don't forget that next time you are in Southern Lebanon to ask the people what it was like having the Palestinians control the area, murdering 100,000 of them and raping 100,000 + women.

Time to wake up and smell the humous.

Still Brighton outside my window